Starting PPL - which plane to fly

[helelizwil]

Hi all,

I have been reading these forums for the past couple of months and they have provided me with so much great advice and information, so thanks everyone.

I've been searching for a thread along these lines and can't fine one, apologies if I've missed it, but here it goes.

I am due to start my PPL in October, and I'm going over to the US to do it. (A decision made when my first trial flight in the UK got cancelled twice because of bad weather.) Anyway, I flew my trial flight at Surrey and Kent Flying Club (great place, would highly recommend it) and did it in a Piper Warrior. I loved the plane, felt much more sturdy than the two seaters I'd flown in previously (a Bulldog and a Grob-Tutor during my years at CCF) and, as the flight school I'm going to in the US (American Aviation Academy, San Diego) has the Piper, I thought I'd do it in that.

But, I'm doing some preliminary research on what jobs are about (I'm planning to go on to CPL when I've done my PPL) and a lot of them are in Cessnas (172/152). Therefore, would it be a smarter move to do my PPL in a Cessna? Or, does it really not matter what plane I fly at this stage?

Thanks in advance for you thoughts/advice.

[portsharbourflyer]

I think the PA28 is actually too easy an aircraft to learn in.

It is the perfect aircraft for leisure flyers who don't fly that frequently, but it isn't good for developing skill at the early stages. It is a very nice aircraft to fly.

I have always found those that learnt on a C152 never had an issue landing a PA28, but those that learnt on a PA28 always struggled converting to a Cessna.

So I would recommend the C152 (or 172 but in the UK 172 isn't that often used for ab-intio training). Agreed the tomahawk is probably the best for honing skill but generally an unpleasant aircraft to fly, so I think the C152 is the best balance of the three commonly used trainers.

It actually concerns me you could gain an CPL/IR and have only ever flown PA28, Arrow and Twin star; none of which would do much to hone handling skills.

[Dash8driver1312]

I flew G115, C150/2, PA28-180 for the PPL. I agree with the previous poster concerning types, but in the end they are all SEPs.

Don't work yourself up too much about types flown though.

[foxmoth]

felt much more sturdy than the two seaters I'd flown in previously (a Bulldog
I must say I am surprised that you found the Pa28 more STURDY than a Bulldog! Actually the Bulldog is far more sturdy being built for aerobatics, the Piper will however be more STABLE as it is really a touring aircraft and built for travelling from A to B with minimum interference from the pilot rather than for actual enjoyment of FLYING!

Unfortunately this is very much the case with most modern aircraft available for PPL training and there is very little to be gained by which one you learn on, so I would pick the one YOU feel best in.

[Agaricus bisporus]

PA28 is a fine aeroplane to train in and in due course you may be lucky enough to fly a Bulldog again, when you'll realise what an utterly delightful, capable and solid mount it is compared to the wooden-handling tin toy Piper...

[helelizwil]

thank you all for your responses - all interesting points to take on board. I am leaning more towards the Cessna now, it's cheaper too, which isn't a deciding factor, but certainly helps!

As for the sturdiness, my perception might have been influenced by the fact I was doing loops and rolls in the Bulldog – and being thrown around – whereas I was just doing pretty basic manoeuvres in the Warrior, which makes for a much smoother ride.

[robin]

What you haven't said is how many of each type there are in the fleet

If there is only one PA28 and half a dozen Cessnas then it makes sense to go with the Cessnas for those occasions when an aircraft is on annual or gone tech.

[helelizwil]

robin, that's a really good point and not something that i'd thought of asking, so thanks for that.

[Johnm]

The Cessna 15x and the Piper PA 38 are only really masquerading as aeroplanes but there's no discernible difference between the PA 28 and the 172 both of which are perfectly good training aeroplanes and tourers.

If you must pretend an aeroplane is something magic rather than a car with wings wait until you have a PPL and then learn aerobatics in an Extra.

[A le Ron]

As others have said, it really doesn't matter that much. Once you have your PPL, converting between types takes about an hour. So choose on grounds of availability, cost and personal preference (if any):ok:

[Silvaire1]

I think all the aircraft used by schools are pretty much viceless when respected. They will all teach you the basics of flying... and that's the important part. Learn and get everything you can from the experience. There are any number of pilots who are snobs about aircraft but in being so, they are wrong. More interested in vainly distinguishing themselves from others than getting the job done. Vanity is weakness, not a strength.

When and if you decide to transition to something that might bite a little more, that will take some time and will also be something to enjoy. It's all about learning, one step at a time. Or the 150/172/Cherokee might be what you want to fly forever, it's up to you.

Right now, it doesn't much matter which trainer you fly.

Have fun training in the sunshine and understand that even Santee, while hardly a Mecca for fine dining, has better food than the airport cafe ;)

[Cows getting bigger]

It depends on where you want to end-up. Sure, the PA28 is fine if you are going to spend a few years flying in straight lines impressing your family and friends before hanging-up your headset. Unfortunately, even the best instructor will have difficulty teaching you some of the finer points of aviation in this aircraft as it is designed for cruise, not to train. I guarantee that the first time you revalidate with a hairy old ex-RAF examiner he will nag you for being out of balance and lazy with your feet.

If you want to have a better foundation, the 152 is the aircraft to learn in (the 172 is a bit like the PA28 as far as handling is concerned). You will learn more about effects of controls, energy management, landing technique etc.

Taking this to an extreme, find a school with a Cub, Chipmunk, Tiger Moth or something similar where you will truly learn the art of handling.

All that said, a huge percentage of PPLs come down the PA28 route, most are absolutely content and we don't experience hideous problems. What do you want to be, a 75% 'satisfactory' pilot or an 85% 'above average'?

[tecman]

You can learn to be a good pilot in either/any option. However, unless you are a very large-frame person, I would go down the C152 route for the following reasons. First, the lighter aircraft will keep you on your toes more, and conversions to larger and more stable aircraft will be essentially trivial. Similarly, the C152 is light enough that if you do decide to fly LSAs/VLAs etc you won't be totally surprised at what's required. Second, the more marginal aircraft performance is actually a plus in training. There's a lot to be said for learning how to coax an aircraft to fly off a short/rough strip on a hot day. I've known people who've trained on an Archer (180 hp) or similar and for whom the realities of maximum performance flying come as a rude shock. Third, the stall/spin behaviour of the C152, while not viscious, does at least approximate classical generic behaviour. And if you can get into an aerobatic version, your instructor can introduce you to a few aerobatic manoeuvres. Not only does this build confidence but it also gives you the opportunity to think about whether it's a path you might like to pursue in your flying. I should add that I've enjoyed many enjoyable and trouble-free cross-country hours in PA28s and lots of other aircraft. For training though, the C152 offers you a tiny bit more character with which to start your aviation career. In fact, I'd recommend a C150 - 40 degrees of flap and a nicer aircraft to fly - but that would just mark me as a regressionist :) Good luck, and have fun, whatever you decide.

[BroomstickPilot]

helelizwil,

If you are intending to go professional don't bother with the CPL.

Go for the ATPL; there is only 10% more in the syllabus, but it makes a world of difference to what you are able to do in your career.

BP.

[dobbin1]

Let me put in a word for the DA20 A1 Katana. Proper stick and rudder, CS prop (albeit driven by a measly 80 HP) and unbeatable all round vision. Much nicer to fly than the aforementioned spam cans. I've been instructing in them for three years and they are great.

I think CTC use them for SE training as well.

[Contact Approach]

I found both the pa28 and c152 pretty easy to learn on.

[Rhino25782]

Hi,

I did my PPL at AAA earlier this year. Enjoy it! :-)

Re the choice of airplane: AAA indeed only has (or had at the time, at least) one Piper. While I was there, there was only one student learning on the Piper - and mind you, he went home without a PPL but with tears in his eyes because the Piper was on unscheduled maintenance for the last week or so, so he couldn't finish. Bad luck, the neighboring school's Piper, which he MIGHT have been able to use, was getting a paint job...

I'd advice you to go for the C152 and get your instructor to book your lessons as early in advance as possible. I haven't taken that step yet, but everyone says converting after finishing the PPL is pretty straightforward, so I'd pick the aircraft which gives you the best experience DURING the training and don't worry about what happens after that...

[GAAV8R]

I think the instructor is far more important than the aeroplane type; Say your instructor is tentative and you are learning on an aircraft type where "Your have to learn to fly", you will get through without learning the finer points the a/c is supposed to teach you. Learn with a great instructor on a forgiving a/c, and your instructor will still make sure you know how to keep an a/ in balance, regardless of whether it does it itself or not..

FWIW, I initially trained on a PA28 and moved to a C152; apart from the first landing which was a tad heavy thanks to lack of ground effect, it was not as difficult as others may suggest..

[abgd]

Worry more about the instruction than the aircraft. By the time I completed my PPL I had time in PA38s (35 hours), a PA-28 (10 hours) and a super-decathlon (40 mins). Since then I have flown mostly 152s, and swapping to them wasn't a problem.

C152s are a bit small, but other than that it's much of a muchness. There are some things that they teach well - I think you need better rudder co-ordination than with the pipers - but stalls are disappointingly uneventful compared to a PA-38.

[flyinkiwi]

To summarize what I think are the most important responses in this thread.



Most of the ubiquitous single engine trainers around are sufficient to acquire basic stick and rudder skills, you can always convert to other types later on.
Quality instruction is far more important than the aircraft type you are learning in.

[riverrock83]

I agree with flyinkiwi.

That thing about cruising in a PA28 - if you're talking about an archer (-180) sure. It is designed for touring with extended wings, a bit more slippery and more powerful engine.

However if you are in a warrier (-140) with its candybar wing which are each about a foot shorter, handling wise you have to learn much more how to fly it, and it compares to be just as good a trainer as the cessnas. Lets not compare
apples and oranges.

However, it really doesn't matter (I learnt across 3 aircraft - Bolkow Junior, PA28 warrier and SA Bulldog.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

PA38 accept no substitutes.

I agree with Flyingkiwi tho, quality instruction both on the ground and in the air is most important than which trainer you get first... although it probably should be steam gauges than glass.... that could be tricky later

- I would say since i am a big fan of the tommie, i flew the 150/152 aircraft after flight training was finished and i did feel i could get a bit lazy with these aircraft.

As a trusted flying mate (and ag pilot) says... "i like the tommie, it bites in the right places".

[darkroomsource]

I learned in C152 and C172 and was able to convert to a PA28 in less than one hour.
Whether or not I could have gone the other way I don't know, as I can't go back and start over.

However, the reason I'm replying is I'd love to know where all these jobs are that are in C152/172's as written in the OP. All I see are unemployed CPL/ATPL holders.

[helelizwil]

BroomstickPilot - thanks for the advice re: CPL versus ATPL. I haven't done a lot of research on the merits of the two, but sounds like ATPL would be much better.

Rhino25782 - thanks for the info on AAA. did you enjoy your time there? I've been emailing Martin and have given him my dates, so hopefully this means he is booking my lessons in? Any other advice about going out there?

[Rhino25782]

Rhino25782 - thanks for the info on AAA. did you enjoy your time there? I've been emailing Martin and have given him my dates, so hopefully this means he is booking my lessons in? Any other advice about going out there?

I enjoyed my flying training very much. I've written a longer review on PPRUNE here:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/506849-heres-current-review-american-aviation-academy-san-diego.html

I don't think Martin is going to book your lessons in. When you arrive at the school, after doing all the paperwork, you will receive an account for the online booking system. If you're lucky, your assigned instructor will have booked some lessons for you already (I was lucky). I don't think there's a way to find out who your instructor is before getting to the school, so this is maybe a little hard to plan ahead. However, if you're on a tight schedule, Martin will understand this and pass that information on to the instructor, I should think. Might be worth stressing that to him in another email?