Industrial action 11, 12, 13th June

[flowman]

Latest position:

Most DSNA (French service provider) unions are calling for strike action this week in protest against SES II+ and RP2 cost reductions.

We are currently in the worst case scenario where :

- the 12 June "European action day" against SESII + will be accompanied by general strike in DSNA, with no possibility to negotiate.

- In addition, the main ATCO union is calling on 3 days of strike 11-12-13, requiring from the government and DGAC/DSNA to take into account some salary increases for the next years as from now in anticipation of future RP2 regulation, and other unspecified demands. The negotiations to avoid the 3 days of strike have failed so far. DSNA are doing their best to keep negotiations open but the outlook is pessimistic as regards a short term issue before the 11th.

If as is likely, the 3 days strikes is confirmed, the "legal service minimum" will be guaranteed. The "minimum" is about 50% eu-route and airport capacity which is extremely disrupting for the network and air transport.

The enforcement of the minimum service entails :

- legally constraining some ATCOs (around 30-40% of the shifts) and ATSEP supervisors not to go on strike

- asking airlines to reduce their flight programmes to the main French airports by 50%

- regulating en-route capacity under a service minimum scenario in liaison with NM

- adapting as far as possible the tactical sector configuration taking into account the actual staffing available

- negotiating with military authorities a reduction of their training activity

- rerouting traffic to avoid French airspace

- regular monitoring of the situation by DSNA with NM, and with Airlines representatives in France (including representation of international airlines trought the "BAR") and airports by regular confcalls (minimum 3 per day) + specific blog information

- other measures as needed and as feasible.


It is still hoped that a solution may be found to avoid the 3 days strike, but so far DSNA have launched their communication process and airlines have currently started to plan their flight programme reduction.

[BeT]

French controllers on strike..... what a surprise!

They do it so often, it means nothing.

In the mean time the surrounding units (including us at MUAC) work our asses off trying to pick up the pieces.

[racedo]

If the legal service minimum is being maintained and staff are not there and out on strike then is French ATC overmanned ?

[flowman]

The French administration can force a certain number of staff to come to work. This is the minimum service, "legal" because by law the staff have to come to work.

[GAPSTER]

Good show of solidarity from our chum at Maastricht there...nul points

[racedo]

Good show of solidarity from our chum at Maastricht there...nul points

They looking after their own interests.....................just like the strikers.

[ATC Watcher]

Do not throw stones before thinking a bit.
I come from a time where salaries and working conditions were extrelemy poor and it is the French strikes of the 70s and 80s that raise the salaries to their current levels, as well as education ( engineer level) and recognition.

In those days solidarity among controllers was the norm , because most of us could not strike, but got some of the benefits the guys that did strike manage to get in the end a bit later...always have.

Today's kids starting in the profession think the salaries and working conditions they enjoy is a fact of life, it was not , people fought hard to get them there.

[toffeez]

Remember Ronald Reagan.

[ATC Watcher]

tofeez : sure, I also remember Frank Lorenzo and Eastern airlines.
Nice era...

[saintex2002]

ATCW, finally reaching THE moment for EUATCOsCOLLECTIVE ?.. ;)

[ATC Watcher]

St Ex : I wish we were there, but Nationalism and demagogy both still very present in 2013 unfortunately.
The Germans recently lost their 2 Ayatollahs, so a compromise is now possible, but will Germany agree to less commercialization , more EU control , and France finally agree to leave the public service ? I am not talking about the ANSPs ( I think the new DFS and DSNA are not that far apart ) I am talking about the individual controllers ..
Divided we will fall...

[CocoBongos]

What's the French ATC'ers salarys like these days?

[saintex2002]

Still in ATCW !!!... Et tu as raison !!!... Nothing to add... Keep'n watching !!!... ;)

[172510]

French ATC salaries is a recurrent topic.
I'm always told that they are paid as top executive for a part time job. I don't know if it's true or not.

[Trossie]

Is the Euro-zone in financial trouble?

Shouldn't they be working their way out of that trouble?

Does industrial action make any sense in those circumstances?

Or is it just that the French feel that they can make use of the 'bottle-neck' that their airspace creates to disrupt the more business-minded northern peoples like the Germans, Scandinavians, Dutch and Brits who want to use the money that they have earned to holiday on the Iberian Peninsular?

With such follies (such as this 'public sector' industrial action and the desires mentioned below for 'more EU control') from within the Euro-zone, is it a surprise that the likes of UKIP are doing so well in Britain?

Just get on and work!

[Bergerie1]

I don't believe that salary is the real issue. The strike against SES II is mainly against change that is essential if European ATM is to function as an efficient whole. Some years ago the Eurocontrol PRC (Performance Review Commission) did some benchmarking studies on a continental scale between European ATM as a whole and US ATM. These studies were repeated also at ACC level between comparable ACCs. In both cases they showed that the US was twice as efficient as Europe. Not because the US was super efficient (there were many improvements that could be made in the US) but because they did it on a large scale, in the same way across the whole continent, and thus achieved the commensurate economies of scale.

The SES II legislation is an attempt to achieve long overdue changes in Europe. But they are resisted by many governments and particularly by the French unions.

[BeT]

@ gapster.

My point still still stands though.... French ATC strike so often that everyone simply shrugs their shoulders and carries on. There's no one to blame for that other than French ATC.

[Lancman]

Is this strike still on? It's disappeared out of the UK papers.

[australiancalou]

Maybe French are so often on strike to fight against the Brits technocrats trying to lower the workers conditions to such a level they earn more and more money.
Don't be fools and wake up chaps.
Your working conditions are getting sooo bad in England it is such a pity.
Don't play the game of your leaders using the British spirit and Nationalism as the key to keep you in the jail of ideology.
Ultra liberalism is worst than communism and it's hard for me to say that.
They fight for there rights right? If your name is not in the who's who then don't blame little fellows.:rolleyes:

[Bidule]

+1
Fully agreed!!

[LookingForAJob]

Is this strike still on? It's disappeared out of the UK papers.Watch it all unfold in close to real time on the Eurocontrol NOP (https://www.public.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUBPORTAL/) - if you can put up with the appalling interface, that is!

[Flying Wild]

Unlikely unless you are in the airline ops side of things...

[Uplinker]

I was based in France for about a year, and the one thing you can say is that the French workers stand up for themselves, and I respect them for that.

Here in the UK we have all lost our :mad: it seems, and just accept whatever :mad: is thrown at us. Also, employment legislation has been changed to prevent widespread strikes.


As far as the country being able to afford it, how is it in the UK that we are all being told there's no money for better wages or NHS or fixing the roads, or our pensions, yet we are financing wars all over the place, a 32billion pound train set nobody actually needs, paying massive salaries to all the management and CEO's, massive expenses being paid to MP's and bonuses being paid to the bankers who got the country into the mess in the first place????!!!!


Sorry, rant over - I'm just going to have a lie down.

[silverstrata]

The French ATC are afraid of this new Euro Control ATC system because they would be the biggest loosers in any amalgamation of European ATC - and they know it.

French ATC still cannot speak English properly, and would therefore be branded as the dummies of the new Euro Control system. Buoyed up by Gaulic gingoism the French thought they were sooo clever in maintaining a firm foundation in French, but did not notice that even Spanish and Italian ATC were beginning to outclass them in every respect.

But now the French are faced with reality - open competition with controllers from all over Europe, whose English is so superior it makes the French look like infants. In such a system, it is obvious that French controllers will be marginalised to the sidelines, and if they are lucky they will be given control of Latvian and Maltese airspace.

French ATC have finally understood that the writing is on the wall for their poor comprehension and impenetrable pronunciation, and are therefore desperately striking to keep their outdated little French-language cartel intact. For safety's sake, lets hope they do not succeed.

[Trossie]

Quote:

"Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!"

[silverstrata]

Trossie.

"Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!"



Amen to that.

Even worse, have you ever tried to go into the small regional French airports? I seem to remember we were 'vent derrier ' (wind up the arse) and 'tap de ban' (no idea of the literal translation there). Most of the ATC control was done via braille.

[blind pew]

Sadly seems as though most flights are cancelled. Contrary to the info this morning that the main airports only were closed, around 1130 easyjet cancelled Montpellier as well...fortunately ten minutes before I left home to take my daughter there.
As to the military stopping flying to help the situation - just had a mirage on a low level cross country pass overhead.

[flowman]

Military still flying low level, they agreed to minimise the higher level activity.

Only crumb of good news is that Thursday's strike has been cancelled so all this should be over by 0400 utc Thursday morning.

Not looking forward to tomorrow though.

[dudubrdx]

Like the Brits thinking their ATC is state of the art.

SilverStrata, lets see your employer try to bring in workforce from Cyprus and Malta for half your salary and see how you like it :ok:

[silverstrata]

Timex - Dundee.

I stand corrected. But I do remember that is was the most rediculous example of union-inspired corporate bankruptcy - which resulted not in higher employee wages, but no wages at all. It was a classic demonstration of how union concentration on worker benefits, instead of unions concentrating on the health of the company, bankrupted not only Timex, but much of UK PLC.
Timex strike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_strike)

Just as Timex succummed to union stupidity after 47 years, so will the French ATC. (Just as the American controllers comitted economic suicide back in 1981.)

And as to the poster who suggested this was all about employing half-price controllers from Cyprus and Malta this is not so. I am sure that controllers from across the richest nations of Europe will still hold most of the top posts in the new ATC system, and few if any wages will be cut. If French ATC fear wage cuts, I would suggest that their wages must be out of all proportion to the median wage in Europe. In other words, they have been fleecing every passenger who goes to or crosses over France, and deriving French wealth on the back of the long-suffering passengers of Europe. I think there will be few supporters for that highwayman-like position.

[dudubrdx]

French ATC are paid 4K NET salary after 10years in the job, depending on which airport they operate. That's 30-50% less than in some other western countries, where the service can hardly be compared.
Other unions are joining in the movement tomorrow apparently. Even heard the UK ATC plus another 9 countries!!
Oh and guess what, apparently they've won support from the French and German (!!!) government

[Old and Horrified]

In a lighter vein, this reminds me of a hilarious after dinner talk in 1981 by retired air traffic controller David Gunson: "What goes up might come down". In it, among other targets, he parodies French air traffic controllers going on strike. Well worth trying to find a copy.

[Capetonian]

yPwIuKbERlU

There you are! I've seen him live, he is brilliant.

The bit about the French starts at about 2'30".

Why it makes the news that the French ATC is going on strike is beyond me, it would be more newsworthy that they are not on strike.

[ATC Watcher]

The French and German Government this evening backed up the French ATC union in their demands to postpone the EU Commission plan to liberalise ATC in Europe.
The strike is over, they won their case, ( at least for now ) respect.

When Luftansa crews went on strike last year to block their employer from hiring low cost replacements (via Lufthansa Italia) they also won. Now everyone is still nicely paid good professional wages in the LH group.
So yes, it pays to resist and use the right of strike to defend certain beliefs.

As to te benefits of liberalisation and market freedom :
I remember a time not so long ago where UK was building superb advanced both civil and military aircraft, great cars ( my generation dreamt about MGBs and Jaguars) and British aiways was the best airline in the world.
Then they got Margret Tatcher, got rid of Unions, now they fly in Airbus and Boeing , drive Toyotas and Peugeots, ,and half the population is struggling to survive on low wages . Great achivements indeed.

[rollnloop]

Like the Brits thinking their ATC is state of the art.

What, those 1940 radios still work, don't they ? :E

What's the average holding at biggin nowadays ? :p

[The SSK]

French ATC are paid 4K NET salary after 10years in the job, depending on which airport they operate. That's 30-50% less than in some other western countries, where the service can hardly be compared.

So the usually well-informed ATC specialist who told me €20,000 monthly for 100 working days a year was telling a HUGE porky pie, obviously.

[ayroplain]

The bottom line is that no group of shysters in any essential service should be allowed to have this sort of power.

[spoon84]

I don't agree, the bottom part of workers had only the strike as a power and in the last year's states are tying to cancel this right! I admire France and the air traffic controllers, they still want to fight and not only say yes and take down our pants to those politics that destroyed Europe. There are many young people which can't even work because there are not jobs!!! They should thank liberalism, they should thank Europe, they should thank privatisation. I'm a young man, becoming air traffic controller (not in France) but I hate the European community and like me thousand of young people in all Europe, we think we deserve more passion for our countries, that each country has the right to survive and fight and not become the slave of anyone else! I see the privatisation and the union of the European sky, AGAIN, the persue of the cut down cost, like happen in the last 5 years and the results are catastrophic! Air traffic services need some changes for sure but still under the control of each country because I'm fed up with the continuous control of few over all the Europe just in name of liberalism and stop compare us with united States, we are not them, they are not us, we are 27 different countries with 27 different cultures!!
The Single European Sky should focus on safety and technology, first priority, than on the optimisation of the ANSP, standardise airspace within all countries, direct routes and in the creation of the fewest centers in each country, I think this is the first steps than we might reconsider a different plan in the next 30 years if need!

[ayroplain]

Taking just the aviation industry as an example, if an airline's workers go on strike people are still left with other airline alternatives. ATC is a different matter. It's an essential service and any disruption results in millions of people going about their lawful and necessary business being affected.

Anyone who wants to take on this vital job must be made from the beginning to understand and accept that they are not permitted to strike or take any other form of industrial action. If they don't like that then they can bugger off and do something else.

[HundredPercentPlease]

ayroplain,

No.

In order to prevent the return of the Victorian mill houses, it is a vital right to be able to withdraw your labour.

People paid a high price to gain this right.

The only real credible exception are workers who protect the health or safety of others (eg doctors and police). ATCOs are simply causing commercial chaos, so no issue there.

[VC10andCounting]

And that's precisely why they have been able, through abuse of their dominant position, to engineer a gilded lifestyle of exorbitant pay for very little work. No wonder they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the status quo - not just the French, see the latest ETF press release (http://www.itfglobal.org/etf/etf-press-area.cfm/pressdetail/9121).

[The SSK]

Oh, please, comparing ACCs with Victorian mill houses. Go and insult somebody else's intelligence, don't pick on mine.

[spoon84]

ATCOs is not a vital job, it's important but it's not like doctors, police, fireman or search and rescue, it's only for the pleasure of people to fly on holiday or receive fresh fish everyday, it's just for the lazy community that we are becoming. Reading that us a vital service makes me laugh, it's true but makes no sense talking about no right of strike or any disruption, my father, my grandfather fighter a lot to gain that rights we are not given up because of commercial/pleasure reasons. I think thanks to this crisis young people understood the importance of fight for their rights and with the help of social media we can do it stronger.

SSK we can't compare but we can't bring back those days for ever reason, let's stop to cut cost at people expenses, why we had to save billions of money for the banks? Why we pay millions for politics that are overpaid and make only disasters? I can also suggest to jeopardize politics all over Europe and let's keep a performance of all the government and than decide to let Germany politics to govern all Europe, do you think politics will accept or they will strike against?

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

Oh, please, comparing ACCs with Victorian mill houses. Go and insult somebody else's intelligence, don't pick on mine. As recently as two years ago, Spanish ATC staff were forced to sit in positions and work overtime practically at gunpoint. I don't think the Victorian millhouse metaphor is all that removed in that particular instance.

This thread suffers from two things; a distinct language barrier on part of the supporters of the industrial action, and staggering misinformation on part of its detractors. Like that gentleman earlier, attempting to liken the rationalization of the Euro airspace to the deregulation of the UK manufacturing industry..there is a misguided analogy if you want one. What the EC wants is rationalization, not liberalization, as many on here seem to freely conflate. I.e. to make the european ATC more like it is stateside, fewer and bigger ACC sectors with interoperable infrastructure, leading to straighter routings and less handovers, who could object to that. Unfortunately it is now becoming obvious that local mindset governments have been paying lip service to SES while at the same time protecting national interests which run contrary to the whole underlying idea. France has become the testing block and so far everything points the direction of business as usual. SES2+ we hardly knew ye, but already looking forward to the next iteration.

[Trossie]

In order to prevent the return of the Victorian mill houses, it is a vital right to be able to withdraw your labour.

Yup. Resign.

Stop thinking in the past. There is a big competitive job market out there. If you don't like the conditions in the job that you're in, go and get another job. If you can't find one that is better, then you're in the best job that's available to you, so grin and bear it!

Best for French ATC would be for it to be split up into different regions as entirely different employers and the employees to get a share out of the money made from the traffic 'carried'. With that if one region decided to go on strike (e.g. Bordeaux), everyone could route through the other regions (e.g. Marseille) instead and the ATCs there could earn more out of the folly of their colleagues in the striking sector!

[Lon More]

ATC Watcher what's your view on the latest from MUAC? Closure in 10 years?

[BeT]

@ LonMore

Havent they been saying that for the last 30yrs!! :O

MUAC will not close (theres a brand new 5M euro building going up in the car park right now, just for starters).

I think theres a good chance that we might be called something other than Eurocontrol in the next few years though.

[spoon84]

Only because we have a competitive market we have to agree with everything is done?!?! What a :mad:! In Greece they just decided yesterday to cancel the public television and radio and fire 2700 people! They have to go home and just say thank you for your opportunity to get a new job?! Why are we becoming all so selfish and not looking around us! Democracy is the only way we can reduce the gap between rich and poor people so here we are talking about rights! About the changes I'm more than agree on find a solution for the rationalisation of the infrastructure, common software and routes, airspace but the fundamental aspect is that people must be sure of the job, it's very important that you can work in front of the radar without the pressure of performance, of incertainity about future or work for many hours, in this job can't work because of the safety aspects involved, than you can change everything, but always listening to the needs of the people.

[119.4]

(GR) Greece air traffic controllers to join strike action scheduled for June 13th - press**NOTE: Other Greek unions today have said they would join in a 24-hour strike tomorrow - Source TradeTheNews.com (http://www.tradethenews.com/)

[ATC Watcher]

Lon More : about Maastricht closing in 10 years, I do not believe that it will happen, not within the 20 years I would say. After ? Who knows?

Main reasons, for me ( I am just giving you my educated opinion ) are many .
first , one of the players ( belgocontrol ) is nearly bankrup and in no position to raise the capital needed to take over back their upper airspace. Even Luxemburg is looking at taking back their airspace ( until FL 245) from them.
.
Next, the main proponents of Maastricht closure and transfer back to Germany have retired from DFS last year and the new guys are far more cautious . The strict rethoric is gone at least.

Then , surprisingly , the tone and words used in the joint letter sent by transports ministers of France and Germany to Commissionner Kallas, indicate clearly that the current cooperative approach and retaining what we have institutionally is , for the time beeing at least, desirable. In other words, we build around what we have, we then look what we can change.

Lastly , the current downfall of traffic , combined with the constant pressure to reduce route charges is not very compatible with the huge costs of closing maastricht and transfering ( i.e building) new facilities to accomodate the sectors and staff.
I think, like many that the name might change , Eurocontrol might pull out ( not so sure of that , but a possibility) , some divisons might shrink or disappear,but the ATC part will most probably remain in Maastricht .

[Lon More]

Thanks, Philippe - that was more or less what I thought but got a mail from TUEM recently which puzzled me.
BeT they've been saying that since 1970 at least !!

[Depone]

I'm not on strike but French ATC has now cost me about €1500 in lost wages because I only get paid if I fly. Naturally, despite being on strike, these ladies and gentlemen will still get paid.

[BEagle]

A pity that European airline aircrew didn't take the same level of action over the absurd nonsense of EASA part-FCL and its 'one size fits all' inflexibility...:ugh:

The only people benefitting from EASA are its fat cat €urocrats with their tax-free salaries.

[Brenoch]

You can't really blame French ATC for being on a contract that only pays when you fly.

[anotherthing]

Rollnloop

What's the average holding at biggin nowadays ?Just shows you how much you know about ATC. The holding situation at Heathrow has very little to do with inefficiency of UK ATC.

[Serenity]

I'm not on strike but French ATC has now cost me about €1500 in lost wages because I only get paid if I fly.



But everyone says how good contract flying is. This is what happens if you let Ryanair and similar have their ways!!
You signed for it!!

[Ancient Observer]

The French call these strikes every summer. They just need an excuse to call them.

The Greek version of the Brit's BBC was closed as it employed circa 3,000 people to do the work of circa 300, and the "jobs" were "owned" by families. A bit like Athens taxi driver licenses. These sorts of nonsense need to end before Greece gets better.

Spanish ATCOs working at gunpoint??? For their money, I, too, would work at gunpoint. They make the Brit ATCO TUs look like useless plonkers. (And I do not think that the nice folk from Prospect are useless plonkers)

[Lon More]

Trossie wrote:
"Best ever ATC instruction one can get:
"Contact London on XYZ (freq.)" ...in a French accent!!!"
I wouldn't knock it too hard. Two of the worst bits of ATC I have ever seen were perpetrated by Brits. One could best be described as criminal and lead to the controller being fired. The other was pure bloody-mindedness by someone who didn't want to be working on Christmas Day.

[Serenity]

I love the French atc.
Enter France, go straight to half way down the country if not straight to the Spanish border!!
Beats the hell out of left 10, right 10, left 5, right 5.

( joke!! Before u get on my case I know how busy the uk, London are!! They are excellent, even a joke or two.
Still love the French way, arrivals into CDG are a little different, ie, via the Belgium border!!)


Of course this all depends if they are at work!!

[BrATCO]

The SSK,
So the usually well-informed ATC specialist who told me €20,000 monthly for 100 working days a year was telling a HUGE porky pie, obviously.
Obviously...
As I'm not an expert in porky pies, I'll refrain from making comments on usually well-informed ATC specialists.

However, I dare say I'm fed up with misinformation !

Being a French air traffic controller in an ACC, I work around 100 days per year.... and 25 nights. Each being 10 hours long (average).
I earn 6,500€ per month (minus 25% income taxes, which is my problem as French citizen) after 22 years in the job and I'll never hit a 2 figures K€.

Now, you can say you got the information from a particularly well-informed ATC professional and start comment knowingly.

Anyway, French controllers' wages were not the issue, as this industrial action was part of a pan-european outcry.

[rollnloop]

Just shows you how much you know about ATC. The holding situation at Heathrow has very little to do with inefficiency of UK ATC.

Does it mean 1/"holding at BIG is perfectly normal, UK ATC is totally inefficient but this is not the most spectacular proof" or 2/"BIG is the most crowded holding in european airspace but UK ATC is nonetheless perfectly efficient" ? :)

What about the replacement of those 1940s VHF ?

This said, as a user, i find UK ATC comparable to french ATC, both have pros and cons, result is pretty much the same. For real bad ATC try Angola or India :ugh:

[10W]

What about the replacement of those 1940s VHF ?



What would you replace VHF with ?

[rollnloop]

Better ones ?

In UK UIR many used to have quite a bad reception quality. It improved in the last years but some still sound weak, distorted, which is quite unusual in Europe.