NADP1 in Europe. What altitude do you reduce to CL thrust?

[ahramin]

I've now had three different pilots tell me that in Europe you cannot have your thrust reduction altitude below 1500' AGL. NADP1 obviously allows thrust reduction anywhere above 800', and I haven't found anything in the Jepps text pages or airport noise abatement procedures to the contrary. However many airport pages have fancy noise monitoring equipment descriptions and big fines so maybe it's a performance thing?

Love to hear from anyone flying widebodies - especially A330s - in Europe: what altitude do you do your thrust reduction at?

[B-HKD]

The most widely adopted NADP1 procedure is Climb thrust at 1500' and acceleration at 3000'.

However,

Many local operators, such as in the UK, Germany and France all which are known to be strict wih noise monitoring and subsequent fines for violations, have adopted 1500' for climb thrust and 1500' for accel.

Example: Lufthansa out of EDDF/Frankfurt will use 1500' for climb thrust and 1500' for accel. At any standard NADP2 airport such as KLAX or VHHH for example, NADP2 applies with 1000'/1000' and anywhere else NADP1 is necessary, 1500'/3000' applies.

United for example will reduce to climb thrust at 1500' and accelerate at 3000' when using NADP1. And NADP1 is exactly what they use at EDDF.

To make it a little clearer, the local carriers at noise sensitive airports such as Lufthansa in Germany, Virgin in the Uk and Corsair in France (just the ones I know off the top of my head) have adopted 1500'/1500' whereas the foreign operators will usually stick to the standard 1500'/3000' as per NADP1.

The idea being that NADP1 with the 1500'/3000' combo is the most common one, because at the majority of noise sensitive airports it will satisfy the noise requirements. Thus operators can avoid having to adopt different climb/accel. figures for each noise sensitive airport.

I believe a reason for certain airports and I believe this also applies to EDDF, not allowing CLB thrust below 1500' could be due to the fact that with todays extensive use of de-rates/assumed-temps/improved-climb that many departures are actually ending up with thurst increases at thrust reduction alt. The reason being that Takeoff de-rates + assumed temps result in lower thrust than CLB1 or CLB thrust. On most boeing types it has become very common when departing from long runways for the thrust levers to move forward at thurst reduction height.

[DutchOne]

In London/EGLL we use (believe or not) 800'/1500' = as company SOP.

In london it is more important to stay on the route, than to have a specific thrust setting.

So there is your 800' :ok:

regards.

[Kefuddle]

The most widely adopted NADP1 procedure is Climb thrust at 1500' and acceleration at 3000'.
I'm as confused as the next man, but I believe ICAO NADP 1 is 800/3000. The older ("former" in ICAO's words) is NADP A which was/is 1500/3000.

[B-HKD]

I'm as confused as the next man, but I believe ICAO NADP 1 is 800/3000. The older ("former" in ICAO's words) is NADP A which was/is 1500/3000.


You are correct indeed. The only change that took place between ICAO A and NADP1 is that the minimum alt. at which thrust reduction is possible under NADP1 is 800' vs. 1500' per ICAO A.

However, the reason 1500'/3000' are the most common NADP1 figures today, is because airports like EDDF do not want thrust reduction below 1500'. This 1500' minimum thrust reduction height was and continues to be a requirement/recommendation to best satisfy the noise requirements without receiving a big $$$ bill exceeding the noise limit.

This is probably why some of the original posters colleagues have informed him you cannot reduce to climb thrust below 1500' in Europe.

Can you at some airports? Of course, but should you at others? Not if you want to play it safe with the noise violations. And as long as it is safe, there is no reason not to.

Of course some will continue to use 800' and depending on the aircraft they operate may indeed never trigger a noise monitoring point. Ultimately, if the airport wants you to use 1500' for thrust reduction under normal circumstances, and it is safe to do so, there should be no reason not to. And hence most operators have adopted 1500'/3000' for NADP1. Unless conditions warrant different figures.

[Private Pike]

According to LIDO the 800/3000 applies to Chapter 3 ac for NADP1. Germany applies a non-standard, 1500/1500 as a Country-wide rule. The UK does not stipulate any non-std height except no turns below 500' although specific airport rules may be specified in the airport plates

[ahramin]

I think I see a picture emerging here. Both NADP1 and 2 are acceptable at many airports in Europe, but they have noise monitoring stations and will fine you regardless of whether or not you are following the allowed profiles. So noisy airplanes have to fly a more conservative profile than quiet ones.

Anyone have the noise abatement plate for EDDF that specifies 1500'? Is it in the general info or noise abatement section?

[B-HKD]

ahramin

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3170/screenshot20130512at627.png

[ahramin]

Thank you sir.

[de facto]

NADP1, you accelerate at NO MORE than 3000 feet
ICAO A,you accelerate AT 3000ft

So if you accelerate AT 3000 ft on a nadp 1, you are pushing your luck...

Sme european airport show the noise monitoring points,,,remember to use your A/P asap to have the most accurate tracking and remember you make most noise during flaps retraction....

[Denti]

We are based in germany and use 1000ft as standard thrust reduction altitude at any german airport (and elsewhere for that matter). Standard procedure is NADP 2, even in EDDF, which follows standard german rules as mentioned above.

According to my documentation both NADP 1 and Procedure A mention to accelerate "at" 3000ft AGL. The big difference is the lower thrust reduction altitude of 800ft AGL in NADP 1

[de facto]

Denti,

NADP1, you must start accelerating to flaps up at NO MORE than 3000 ft and AT 3000 ft accelerate to ennrote climb(250 or more).

[WhyByFlier]

In easy, everywhere in the network, NADP1 is THR RED at 1000 AAL (maintain V2 + 10-20) and ACC at 3000 AAL. NADP2 is THR RED at 1000 AAL and accelerate maintaining green dot (min clean) plus 5 to 3000 AAL. That is it. If it differs from your text book it is probably because we have authorisation/ dispensation to do so.

[B-HKD]

So if you accelerate AT 3000 ft on a nadp 1, you are pushing your luck...

How so?

Just to give you some examples...Qantas, Lufthansa, United, Atlas Air, ANA, all use 1500' for CLB thrust reduction and 3000' for accel.

The exact NADP1 wording is "At or Below" So if you start accelerating at 3001' or even 3100' its not the end of the world.

Qantas changed their NADP1 procedure only at EGLL, where it was no-derates/assumed-temp takeoffs, CLB thrust reduction at 1000' and acceleration at 4000'. (Not sure if this applies to current A380 ops)

If your implying that a acceleration height above 3000' cannot be called NADP1, then so be it.

[de facto]

So if you accelerate AT 3000 ft on a nadp 1, you are pushing your luck...
How so?

Just to give you some examples...Qantas, Lufthansa, United, Atlas Air, ANA, all use 1500' for CLB thrust reduction and 3000' for accel.

The exact NADP1 wording is "At or Below" So if you start accelerating at 3001' or even 3100' its not the end of the world.

Qantas changed their NADP1 procedure only at EGLL, where it was no-derates/assumed-temp takeoffs, CLB thrust reduction at 1000' and acceleration at 4000'. (Not sure if this applies to current A380 ops)

If your implying that a acceleration height above 3000' cannot be called NADP1, then so be it.

I am not only implying it,I am saying it and I am not the person who defined NADP1,ICAO did.

Now if all those airlines you are apparently familiar with(magazines?)decide as a matter of simplicity to tell you to accelerate AT 3000 ft (thrust reduction at 1500) which is the old ICAO A and mostly used by crews then fine.
Now if you reduce the thrust at 1500ft and accelerate at 2000ft,you will be in NADP 1 and save fuel in the process.

[B-HKD]

I am not only implying it,I am saying it and I am not the pesron who defined NADP1,ICAO did.

Now if all those airlines you are apparently familiar with decide as a matter of simplicity to tell you to accelerate AT 3000 ft (thrust reduction at 1500) which is the old ICAO A and mostly used by crews then fine.
Now if you reduce the thrust at 1500ft and accelerate at 2000ft,you will be in NADP 1 and save fuel in the process.


As you correctly stated, 1500'/3000' is the old ICAO A.

However, 1500'/3000' is perfectly within the guidance of NADP1 and thus it can be considered NADP1.

As you know NADP1 is defined by:

1. On reaching an altitutdeat or above 800' AGL reduce to climb thrust

2. At no more than 3000' AGL accelerate and retract flaps/slats on schedule.

So yes, accelerating at anything > 3000' AGL cannot be called NADP1. However your, "you are pushing your luck" comment has me confused as to what is wrong with a accelerating AT 3000' AGL?


The reason various operators have adopted the same figures for NADP1 as they used for ICAO A, is because they are still valid and perfectly acceptable under NADP1.

[Leo77]

We are based in germany and use 1000ft as standard thrust reduction altitude at any german airport (and elsewhere for that matter). Standard procedure is NADP 2, even in EDDF, which follows standard german rules as mentioned above.

According to my documentation both NADP 1 and Procedure A mention to accelerate "at" 3000ft AGL. The big difference is the lower thrust reduction altitude of 800ft AGL in NADP 1

Do you accelerate to 250IAS @1500ft? NADP2 (as well as 1) does not contain that according to DOC 8168

[737Jock]

At EZY NADP2 is 1000/1000 and NADP1 1000/3000

[Denti]

@Leo, no, we reduce to climb thrust at 1000ft which usually means that we increase our thrust considerably and climb with that to 3000ft where we accelerate to climb speed.

In general as easy does apparently, 1000/1000 for normal departures (including FRA) and 1000/3000 for noise abatement.