A/G Radio - Questions

[SmoothCruise]

Hi all,

I have a few questions regarding the use of Air/Ground Radio, and the phraseology used.

1. If an aircraft lands and vacates the runway, if you want them to park in a certain area or position then what would be the correct phraseology to "advise" them to park though? Surely you can't say "PARK to the right of the red Cessna" because that's instructing them to do something?

2. In CAP431 is mentions that when an aircraft reports that it's ready to cross the active runway, the A/G operator should reply with "G-ABCD After the PA28 has landed no reported traffic", this sounds to me as though the controller is almost instructing the aircraft to cross ONLY after the aircraft has landed rather than advising them?

3. What legal age do you have to be to get your R/T license for an aircraft, and what legal age do you have to be to get your A/G Radio license? (I'm talking about the UK by the way)

Sorry if I'm being dumb, some answers would be highly appreciated.

Thanks very much,

SmoothCruise.

[Another_CFI]

SmoothCruise,

In answer to your questions:-

1) You could say "There is space available to the right of the red Cessna"

2) The Air/Ground phraseology in CAP413 simply provides the pilot with information and is not an instruction to do/not do something. From the information provided it is up to the pilot to decide what to do. If the PA28 is on final it could be nearly four miles from the threshold and therefore it could be safe to cross the runway before it lands, however if has turned onto final from a conventional base leg it is likely to be safer to wait until it lands. The Air/Ground operator has simply provided the pilot with the information to make that decision.

3) The minimum age for the issue of an Aeronautical Radio Station Operator’s Certificate of Competence is 18 years.

[2 sheds]

SmoothCruise

CAP452 is what you need - available on CAA website. This in turn cross-refers to CAP413 (sic).

2. In CAP431 is mentions that when an aircraft reports that it's ready to cross the active runway, the A/G operator should reply with "G-ABCD After the PA28 has landed no reported traffic", this sounds to me as though the controller is almost instructing the aircraft to cross ONLY after the aircraft has landed rather than advising them?
An A/G operator is just that, not a controller - and does not even advise; he passes factual information. There is no question that he "should reply..."; what you quote is just an example. An AGCS operator holds a certificate, not a licence, for that function.

2 s

[west lakes]

I was always given the impression that once on the ground and clear of the active runway, an aircraft is a visitor on private land and as such can be required to park where the airfield requires.

[PhiltheReaper]

Just as an A/G Radio Operator can pass on a clearance from an ATCO "London Clears you to enter controlled airspace on track Daventry..."

They can also pass on a message from the Airport Authority, who do have the right to restrict landings, proscribe parking areas etc.

I personally would probably word it like this:

"The Airport Authority asks you to park to the North Side of the hangar on your right" for example.

I'd be surprised if a Pilot said "No" without a good reason!

Phil

[Talkdownman]

Massaging AGCS phraseology gets even harder with big jets...

[SmoothCruise]

Thanks for the fantastic, well-explained replies. I understand the answers to my questions now. There are very small, potentially un-noticeable phraseology's in which you must be careful of when speaking on the radio, however of course, you can't legally act as an A/G Operator, or even speak on the radio base unless you have your radio license and have completed the "course".

But there's things such as an A/G Radio Operator using the words At your discretion. Although the pilot won't fuss about you saying that on A/G, but it's not the correct phraseology and you couldn't get in trouble for it...

Once again, thanks, my questions are now cleared up.

Regards,

Smooth Cruiser

[2 sheds]

SmoothCruise
You are very welcome, but
your radio license and have completed the "course".It's a certificate - and there is no approved course (at the moment).

But there's things such as an A/G Radio Operator using the words At your discretion. Although the pilot won't fuss about you saying that on A/G, but it's not the correct phraseology and you couldn't get in trouble for it...Not sure what you are trying to say - the whole point is that it could create confusion about which service is being provided.

2 s

[Talkdownman]

But there's things such as an A/G Radio Operator using the words At your discretion. Although the pilot won't fuss about you saying that on A/G, but it's not the correct phraseology and you couldn't get in trouble for it...
See CAP452 Chapter 4 Para 4.2:

"Those who operate Aeronautical Radio Stations and provide an AGCS are reminded that they must not use the expression 'at your discretion' as this is associated with the service provided by a FISO."

[chevvron]

I understand there is a course available at Cwmbran Resource Training - Air Traffic Control, Air Defence and Electronic Warfare training (http://www.resourcetraining.co.uk) They can also examine you for the ROCC.

[FantomZorbin]

I would suggest where Flight Safety is an issue that a 'duty of care' would necessitate the use of Instruction rather than Advice.

I would much rather state my case in the Ops Room rather than at a Coroner's Inquest.

[Talkdownman]

I would suggest where Flight Safety is an issue that a 'duty of care' would necessitate the use of Instruction rather than Advice

Agree with DoC, but it should be borne in mind that in the UK AGCS is not considered to be an Air Traffic Service.

"Information provided by an AGCS radio station operator may be used to assist a pilot in making a decision; however, the safe conduct of the flight remains the pilot's responsibility" .

[2 sheds]

I would suggest where Flight Safety is an issue that a 'duty of care' would necessitate the use of Instruction rather than Advice.
I would much rather state my case in the Ops Room rather than at a Coroner's Inquest.
A melodramatic argument. The AGCS operator has no qualification - and perhaps no experience - to pass an instruction. However, clear and precise information can give the pilot the ability to make an appropriate decision. The required result can be obtained by operating legitimately.

2 s

[PhiltheReaper]

You make an obvious but important point 2 Sheds.

In my opinion an A/G Operator would be more likely to cause a problem by passing an instruction than help matters.

Pilots do generally know what they are doing, and are reasonably situationally aware. In a critical moment, to pass an instruction when providing a Radio service, could cause confusion. Pilots can reasonably expect only to receive information, or at the very most passed clearances from a different authority.

It is also worth noting that an A/G Operator not being trained or qualified to issue instructions would not necessarily make the best decision in the time, no matter how good naturedly they made that decision.

I would much rather pass accurate and useful information briefly than have to explain myself in the Ops Room or Court. Ultimately, I don't have the training to ensure that a breach of the rules would actually diminish the risk of accident

Phil

[Sir George Cayley]

Passing wind can be a problem:O

OK you can look at the wind direction indicator but if there is an anemometer available should an AGCS make use of it and how would they phrase the reading?

SGC

[2 sheds]

how would they phrase the reading?
Say what you see!
2 s

[Talkdownman]

OK you can look at the wind direction indicator but if there is an anemometer available should an AGCS make use of it and how would they phrase the reading?
An AGCS operator may make use of an anemometer.
An AGCS operator would phrase the reading in accordance with CAP413 Chapter 4 Pages 33-35, eg. "surface wind xxx degrees yy knots"

My big jets don't seem to mind me passing wind...

[Another_CFI]

My big jets don't seem to mind me passing wind...

As long as they are upwind from you.

[dont overfil]

I would much rather pass accurate and useful information briefly than have to explain myself in the Ops Room or Court. Ultimately, I don't have the training to ensure that a breach of the rules would actually diminish the risk of accident

Phil



It is usually more clear cut than that if there is a flight safety issue.
Below is a quote from the airprox board following a recent incident.

The M/L pilot displayed commendable presence of mind in following the A/G Operator’s instructions to stop climbing. The A/G Operator acted outwith his responsibilities and authority and in doing so prevented an even more serious occurrence, actions for which he is highly commended by the Board.

D.O.

[2 sheds]

dont overfil

Without admitting it or advocating it previously, I would actually agree. It's just that I think it's a dangerous path to follow to advocate breaking the rules right from the start.
And, of course, it's all very well for the Airprox Board to highly commend the person involved, but had something gone wrong, unofficial instruction misunderstood etc, it would be a different story.

2 s

[chevvron]

The Airprox board's opinions are 'common sense' but not necessarily in line with CAA regulations.

[DC10RealMan]

I suspect that it is the nature of any FISO/AG operation that you will be dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

[2 sheds]

The Airprox board's opinions are 'common sense' but not necessarily in line with CAA regulations.
...with the benefit of hindsight after a safe outcome!

2 s