Air India flight operated by cabin crew whilst pilots sleep in J class.

[SloppyJoe]

Pilots suspended for handing over control to air-hostesses for a 40-minute loo break - Mumbai Mirror (http://mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Pilots-suspended-for-handing-over-control-to-air-hostesses-for-a-40-minute-loo-break/articleshow/19847210.cms)


Truly amazing.

[Hardbutt]

To silly to be true. :p

[Msunduzi]

How long before someone praises them because they got back to their seats in time and "no-one was hurt"?

As for "revert to you" only a lawyer could use a term like that, anybody else would reply in correct English :)

[Capetonian]

Incredible. How interesting to know that anyone can learn to operate a sophisticated passenger aircraft in 'a few minutes'.
Captain Soni did not leave the cockpit immediately; instead, he spent a few minutes teaching the two stewardesses how to operate the aircraft.

"We will revert to you on receiving their reply."
Standard Indian subcontinent English.

[LiveryMan]

How long before AI blame Airbus for making it too easy to turn off the Autopilot?

Indian companies, especially those run by the government are always keen to make sure the buck does not stop with them.

They blamed Boeing for the 772LR not fitting their route structure and loosing them money, despite the fact THEY ordered it then promptly had them sit around doing nothing but gather dust 80% of the time.

[Msunduzi]

"We will revert to you on receiving their reply."
Standard Indian subcontinent English.

It's used in SA as well, but that still doesn't make it the correct use :)

[sleeper]

I cannot believe this actually happened.

[vctenderness]

Well Captain Soni could have a new career after, hopefully, his services are no longer required at Air India.

He could set up a fast track learn to fly a large commercial jet in minutes business.


Think how much you could save on all those expensive courses before applying to large International airlines!

[andrasz]

Although incredible absurdities are commonplece on the fine sub-continent, I do find it a bit hard to fanthom that anyone with sufficient aviation knowlede to get that thing up in the air in the first place would actually display such level of recklessness. I would treat the story with a pich of salt until confirmed by some credible source.

[Capetonian]

An Aeroflot Airbus commander let his teenage children do exactly the same thing, resulting in a crash, about 15 years ago I think.

[Checkboard]

An Aeroflot Airbus commander let his teenage children do exactly the same thing, resulting in a crash, about 15 years ago I think.

The Aeroflot Captain allowed his 16yo son to "play" with the controls, while a rated FO sat in the right hand seat. He didn't leave the cockpit to go to sleep in business for 40 minutes with the FO! (NB: I'm not saying the Aeroflot incident wasn't also insane.)

[Flying Clog]

Anyone who has ever been to India should not be in the least bit surprised by this story. I'm not. Sadly...

:ugh:

[Liam_Mulholalnd]

Yeah the Aeroflot crash was due to the captain not really paying attention to what his son was doing to the flight controls, a constant force on control yoke disengaged the autopilot.

[Flying Clog]

Bloody hell, a disengaged autopilot in the cruise? No wonder they couldn't recover the aircraft from that state...

Another great example of airmanship!

Bravo to the Russians as well as the Indians!

:{

[ATC Watcher]

The Aeroflot accident was a bit more complicated , :
With the autopilot active, Kudrinsky, against regulations, let [his kids[ sit at the controls. First his daughter Yana took the pilot's left front seat. Kudrinsky adjusted the autopilot's heading to give her the impression that she was turning the plane, though she actually had no control of the aircraft. Next his son, Eldar, took the pilot's seat. Unlike his sister, Eldar applied enough force to the control column to contradict the autopilot for 30 seconds. This caused the flight computer to switch the plane's ailerons to manual control while maintaining control over the other flight systems. The plane did not audibly signal a warning that this had occurred, although an indicator light did come on. It apparently went unnoticed by the pilots, who had previously flown Russian-designed planes which had audible warning signals with partial A/P disconnect. .
The first to notice a problem was Eldar, who observed that the plane was banking right. Shortly after, the flight path indicator changed to show the new flight path of the aircraft as it turned. Since the turn was continuous, the resulting predicted flight path drawn on screen was a 180 degree turn. This indication is similar to the indications shown when in a holding pattern, This confused the pilots for nine seconds. During this confusion, the plane banked past a 45-degree angle . This increased the g-force on the pilots and crew, making it impossible for them to regain control. After the plane banked to 90 degrees, the remaining functions of the autopilot tried to correct its plummeting altitude by putting the plane in an almost vertical ascent, nearly stalling the plane. The co-pilot and Eldar managed to get the plane into a nosedive, which reduced the g-force they were experiencing and enabled the captain to take the controls. Though he and his co-pilot did regain control, their altitude by then was too low to recover, and the plane crashed at high vertical speed, estimated at 70 m/s (14,000 ft/min). All aboard were killed.
The aircraft crashed gear up, and all passengers had been prepared for an emergency, as they were strapped into their seats. No distress calls were made prior to the crash. Despite the struggles of both pilots to save the aircraft, it was later concluded that if they had just let go of the control column, the autopilot would have automatically taken action to prevent stalling, thus avoiding the accident.

It must be said in their defense ,that allowing family members and friends to sit at the controls on cruise, notably to take photos, was extremely common before that time, and everywhere, not only in Russia.

[DesiPilot]

Come on guys, Mumbai Mirror is not a very reputable news paper. Have you seen the business class seats in Air India A321? I'd bet on it that the pilot seats are more comfortable than their J class seats.

I'm sure there is more to this story, I just hope that we will find out the truth.

[Ashling]

Lets hope it doesn't give Mr O'Leary any idea's

[captjns]

Air India operates by a special set of CARs versus the private carriers:}.

As for new reporting, how may reporters could report any tory with any degree of accuracy and honesty, even if it happened right before their bloody eyes?:yuk:

[hifly787]

The inside dope. F/o on toilet break. As per SOP one C/C called in but invited to take P2 seat. Shortly after second C/c walks in , incredibly offered the P1 seat. Capt standing and teaching them how to fly a A-321 at 33000 ft. F/O comes back from toilet and all resume normal duties. Insiders say the F/O reported the matter to Flight Safety on arrival at DEL.
Capt Soni and the two c/c are under suspension.

[roulishollandais]

Captain Soni did not leave the cockpit immediately; instead, he spent a few minutes teaching the two stewardesseshow to operatetheaircraft
Bernard CHABERT, the best French Airshow Animator, told once at the FERTE-ALLAIS annual famous meeting : "By AIR FRANCE the best pilot is Stewardess" and Catherine MAUNOURY (aerobati:Dcs world champion) did her show. Today she is the Le Bourget Air Museum Director...
She said she started to learn aerobatics as she did ñot understood well the flight.
All that was before AF447 Captain Dubois rest...

[Huck]

It must be said in their defense ,that allowing family members and friends to sit at the controls on cruise, notably to take photos, was extremely common before that time, and everywhere, not only in Russia.

Not everywhere....

[crwkunt roll]

They blamed Boeing for the 772LR not fitting their route structure and loosing them money
Did them monies get tightened again? :ugh:

[TeaTowel]

What about radio calls etc? It sounds highly unlikely.

[jfkjohan]

yikes.

but hey, if what hifly787 (http://www.pprune.org/members/354947-hifly787) said is true, being the "inside dope", it sounds pretty believable & logical.

the next question would be, why.

looking forward to the official report to learn from this.

[Lonewolf_50]

dear jfkjohan:
For "why" I looked at the article (http://mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Pilots-suspended-for-handing-over-control-to-air-hostesses-for-a-40-minute-loo-break/articleshow/19847210.cms)from the paper in question, and noted the pictures of the two ladies.
Both are very pretty.
Conjecture: motive might be someone more concerned with the position of his own center stick than the aircraft's side stick. :cool:

[jfkjohan]

Dear Lonewolf_50,

A wise man did say, the biggest rise and/or fall of a man, be a woman.


For this CM1, it was two.


Oh well.

[cairnfield]

My first thought was what about radio traffic? No comms for 40 minutes??

[tbaylx]

No voice comms for 40 min over the Bay of Bengal is normal ops.

[ATC Watcher]

Both are very pretty. In my time we use to say for a woman to succeed in Aviation she had to be very good or very pretty .
Here you go .seems still valid as one managed to disconnect A/P . :-)
But somehow the story sounds too good to be true. Up to 5 min I will buy . But 40 ?

[Limeygal]

My sister and I took an Indian Airlines flight from Delhi to Kathmandu. We had been talking to one of the crew and when she found out we both worked for airlines she invited us up to the flight deck to get a better view of the Himalayas. Just after we arrived the Capt. and F/O got into a very heated argument. They seemed totally oblivious to the fact that they had pax in there. We had never seen anything like it. We beat a hasty retreat!

[stealthpilot]

Anyone who has ever been to India should not be in the least bit surprised by this story. I'm not. Sadly... Brilliant reply Flying Clog .... although it would surprise everyone .... even in India :=
Heck strange things are possible in India, but this is a stretch even for Air Indias low standards.

Here is what AvHerald says
Incident: Air India A321 enroute on Apr 12th 2013, 2 cabin crew in cockpit, autopilot disconnected unintentionally (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=461b7ada&opt=0)

The truth ??? hmmmmm anyones guess ....

[Grenville Fortescue]

Air India flight operated by cabin crew whilst pilots sleep

C'mon, we've all done it! ;)

[xcitation]

I can't decide which is worse this Air India or the NWA incident. :confused:
Pilots suspended after 'falling asleep and overshooting airport by 150 miles' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222401/Pilots-suspended-falling-asleep-overshooting-airport-150-miles.html)
Is it better to have someone awake at the "pointy end" even if they are CC than having both pilots quietly zapped out?

[Hootersbooters]

Just to prove that this site is increasingly inhabited by sciolists, no one has responded to the post by hifly787 stating:
The inside dope. F/o on toilet break. As per SOP one C/C called in but invited to take P2 seat. Shortly after second C/c walks in , incredibly offered the P1 seat. Capt standing and teaching them how to fly a A-321 at 33000 ft. F/O comes back from toilet and all resume normal duties. Insiders say the F/O reported the matter to Flight Safety on arrival at DEL.
Capt Soni and the two c/c are under suspension.

That is by far the most likely explanation of the incident. Unfortunately, the patients have taken over the asylum that is pprune these days and the spotters, sciolists and enthusiasts have continued the discussion with the usual uninformed speculation based on the average low IQ of serial social media addicts!

Jeez, we need somewhere new to discuss these incidents where the posters aren't overwhelmingly MS Flight Sim amateur NTSB or AAIB investigators. :mad:

[SloppyJoe]

From AvHerald

Air India released a statement stating, that the aircraft was under control by flight crew at all times, at no time the flight attendants were at the controls of the aircraft. However, two cabin crew had a prolonged stay in the cockpit, during their "overstay" the first officer - in his seat - accidentally disconnected the autopilot probably as result of distraction while interacting with cabin crew and quickly re-connected the autopilot. Both flight crew and both cabin crew have been suspended pending investigation.


Why would this even be a story. I have accidentally disconnected the autopilot in a 330 with my knee, why did that not make the news?

Why have they all been suspended?

[Capn Bloggs]

Trying out the new CRM. Used to be Cockpit Resource Management, now Crew Resource Management...

Jeez, we need somewhere new to discuss these incidents
Somewhere new? Your first post? :confused:

[Captain Dart]

An oldie but a goodie, alledgedly once heard on an ATC frequency:

ATC: 'Aeroflot 123, Control'.

ATC: 'Aeroflot 123, Control'.

Unknown voice: 'Listen, sonny, nip down the back and tell your Dad that Control is calling him'.

[roulishollandais]

Bernard Ziegler designed the A321s for his concierge. He sold them to the airlines with the same message : pilots are overtrained and overpaid, use new generation MS watcher.
AI added "The A320 is the only aircraft in the World who may be piloted by fools"
Message received loud and clear in the cockpit too.:(

[fullforward]

You guys are spot on.
Enough of the hysteria here!:ugh:

[Dan Winterland]

''I have accidentally disconnected the autopilot in a 330 with my knee, why did that not make the news?''

It's very easy to accidently disconnect the AP on the FBW Airbus types. The disconnect/takeover button on the sidestick is neccessarily very accessible and consequently in a vulnerable position. It happened to me recently when the clipboard slid off the other pilot's table in turbulence.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a very minor incident and when it happens, you just re-engage the AP - assuming you know how to! And that is why you don't allow unqualifed people to occupy the pilot's seats in flight. In our operation, we have to have a cabin crew on the flight deck if one pilot has to use the toilet and they sit on one of the jump seats.

[Road_Hog]

"We will revert to you on receiving their reply."
Standard Indian subcontinent English

And this as well?

"engangering the lives of everyone on board".

[crewmeal]

Air India released a statement stating, that the aircraft was under control by flight crew at all times, at no time the flight attendants were at the controls of the aircraft.

AI are bound to say that. If they said anything else Joe Public would automatically think it was normal for them to control the a/c. Regarding the FO I guess his mind was on other things. Was it his knee that knocked out the AP? :)

Hell now the Daily Mail have got the story!!

Airline suspends pilots after they 'left Airbus carrying 166 passengers on autopilot and air hostesses in charge while they slept in business class' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2319283/Airline-suspends-pilots-left-Airbus-carrying-166-passengers-autopilot-air-hostesses-charge-slept-business-class.html)

[Jazbag]

Difficult to believe such a preposterous story!!!

[captjns]

Wait... there may be a Bollywood blockbuster docudrama to come from this. Contributing crayonists... the Mumbai Mirrorl:}

[Load Toad]

It would be difficult to believe a flight crew being too busy fixing a lamp that they flew into the ground...but guess what...

[lomapaseo]

Dan Winterland


''I have accidentally disconnected the autopilot in a 330 with my knee, why did that not make the news?''

It's very easy to accidently disconnect the AP on the FBW Airbus types. The disconnect/takeover button on the sidestick is neccessarily very accessible and consequently in a vulnerable position. It happened to me recently when the clipboard slid off the other pilot's table in turbulence.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a very minor incident and when it happens, you just re-engage the AP - assuming you know how to! And that is why you don't allow unqualifed people to occupy the pilot's seats in flight. In our operation, we have to have a cabin crew on the flight deck if one pilot has to use the toilet and they sit on one of the jump seats.


Agree :ok:

I've seen the same (embarrasing as it was)

In this thread subject it became an incident apparently because it could not be immediately corrected.

I'll let the authorities sort out who sat where and when since I don't trust the press :)

[Metro man]

I have accidentally disconnected the autopilot in a 330 with my knee

I've done it too on an A320, with your foot on the retracting foot rest your knee is perfectly positioned to hit the red button if it moves sideways.

[BOAC]

Cue stories of bonking in the seat in ABii (watch the knee tremblers) - a real challenge in a 737- and off we go to JB..........................

[rexmundi]

I work in as an IT contractor across Europe, make a nice living repatriating IT projects outsourced to the Indian Subcontinent. This story does not surprise me at all. Reminds me of a similar disaster that happened to IT operations in one of my clients. Luckily this was not an aviation disaster with loss of life.

[fr8tmastr]

I cant believe some think that disconnecting an autopilot (assuming the crew was in the cockpit) would ever rise to the level of incident, let alone anything newsworthy. For crying out loud are you not pilots?

This is the reason I believe there has to something to this story. If it was just the autopilot clicking off, who would have ever heard about it?:ugh:

[ironbutt57]

(assuming the crew was in the cockpit)

The whole story is about the report that the crew were NOT in the flight deck...read read

[Basil]

That Kanika Kala should be taken to the fleet manager’s office for a jolly good spanking for switching the autopilot off :E

[doubleu-anker]

I have worked with individuals from that part of the world.

They are quite prone to getting up and walking around the cabin, sometimes attempting to without consulting the PIC. They seem to think it is a macho thing to be seen to be strutting their stuff and to seen by the pax.. They are pretty well reliant on the automatics. God help anyone who is on board one of their airlines, and the the 2 robots are reduced to manual flying on standby instruments. However they don't have the common sense or the experience to realise, if something goes wrong at the wrong time both crew members would need to be in the cockpit, not outside chewing the fat.

Having said that I have awoken on the flight deck and found the other 2 crew members sound asleep, on a long flight over very remote part of the world.

Flame me if you wish, at least we were all in the cockpit. :}

[taildrag]

Sounds like, from a friend of mine who flew a short time for an Indian airline before quitting, that many young Indian pilots bribed their way into their licence and later the job. Why waste time with onerous training?:E

[captjns]

RDR.... it ain't up to ICAO. Its up to each country's Aviation Administration to determine whether or not AI is safe or not safe to operate within their airspace.

[fr8tmastr]

"The whole story is about the report that the crew were NOT in the flight deck...read read"

That is the definition of irony in one sentence

[Speed Freak]

the PIC was in the flight deck at all times. the first officer was on a toilet break. thats all i am saying!

[Sober Lark]

Only positive aspect I can see about this debacle is the fact that the co pilot felt he could report the captain for unprofessional conduct.

[chillpill]

Perhaps a certain Mr O'Leary was testing his latest idea out! ;)

[PCLCREW]

I question why anyone would even step foot on an Air India aircraft... The list just goes on and on... after I watched that one twit make that Air India rap video and put it on you tube I just wanted to cry, because that is the next generation of pilots in this world, and it scares the s+++ out of me.

[Lonewolf_50]

the PIC was in the flight deck at all times. the first officer was on a
toilet break. thats all i am saying
This would point to the journo as not quite getting the facts right. Gee, there's a first! :rolleyes: :p

[KiloMikePapa]

And are the toilets on the AI Airbii equipped with a joystick :}?

[aterpster]

Getting back to Air India, what is "J Class?"

[BOAC]

Travel class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travel_class)

[SeaVision]

Business Class

[acutabove007]

This is absolutely crazy :=

I can understand the point in having someone occupy the seat when a FO is not in it, but I was not aware that crew are trained in away way in how to operate anything major in the flight deck other then monitoring and switching off, of the APU? I may be wrong it that though!

This kind of situation just makes general aviation safety seems like a joke, when you think that as pax you have no idea how good/bad a job the crew are performing.

Kind of reminds me of the "kid in the cockpit" situation with the aeroflot flight 593. I know circumstances are very different here but its the principle of allowing a novice person at the controls when pax are on it...

I know it would make me very annoyed if I were on it

[jetjockey696]

This is another way out... to save face and give to justify the pilot rest in J class...

A recent article...

India's Civil Aviation Authority Drafts Rules To Allow Pilots Short Nap On Long Flights

Don't be surprised if you find out your pilot is sleeping in the cockpit on a long flight in India!

Rules have now been framed to allow pilots to take a power nap to fight fatigue under stringent conditions, Press Trust of India (PTI) reported.

Taking cue from global best practices, official sources said Indian aviation regulator Directorate General Civil Aviation (DGCA) has drafted rules to allow a pilot take a short nap on the flight deck while the other pilot takes full control of the aircraft on a long-distance flight.

The rules were framed after several pilots' unions sought changes in the Flight Duty Time Limitation (FDTL) provisions on adequate rest to mitigate fatigue so pilots can remain alert and perform aircraft operations according to safety norms.

Many countries already have rules to allow controlled rest or CR for pilots while in cockpit seats. This is among measures that form part of the International Civil Aviation Organisation's fatigue risk management systems.

Global aviation regulators started allowing controlled rest after a 1992 NASA study concluded that a pilot would be more alert for the approach phase of a flight if he or she rested 45 minutes or less during the pre-descent part of the flight.

The draft DGCA rules make it mandatory for CR to be allowed only on a flight lasting three hours or more and would commence after the aircraft has completed its full climb and ends 30 minutes before the descent begins.

The CR would be allowed by the Captain and during periods of low workload when weather conditions are benign.

The maximum time for CR would not be longer than 40 minutes with another 20 minutes for operational orientation before resuming flight deck duties.

The draft DGCA rules also make it clear that the resting pilot would keep his or her seat belt and harness fastened and move the seat to a position so that there is no "unintentional interference" with flight controls.

During CR, the non-resting cockpit crew would take on full responsibilities of the resting pilot and exercise control of the aircraft at all times, including not leaving the seat and keeping seat belt and harness fastened.

Scientific evidence has shown that pilots are more mentally aware during more difficult phases of flight, such as during approach and landing, after taking a controlled rest.

-- BERNAMA