BBC reporting 6 helicopters at M62 mini bus crash scene?

[nomorehelosforme]

26 April 2013 Last updated at 14:02 Share this pageEmailPrint
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Fatalities feared as 19 injured in crash on M62

West Yorkshire Police said 19 people from the minibus were injured, six of them serious
There are unconfirmed reports of fatalities in a crash on the M62 in West Yorkshire which has injured 19 people, six of them seriously.

Emergency services and hospitals have declared a major incident following the collision between a lorry, a car and a minibus shortly after 11:00 BST.

West Yorkshire Police said the 19 people were in a mini bus which was in collision with a lorry and a car.

The driver of the lorry has been arrested, police confirmed.

Six helicopters
Yorkshire Ambulance Service said it had put major incident procedures in place following the collision on the westbound carriageway near junction 32.

Karl Milner, the executive director of Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, tweeted: "[Leeds General Infirmary] major trauma centre put on alert following pile up on M62 near Castleford".

The North West and Great North air ambulances are among emergency crews at the scene.

At one stage six helicopters were ferrying the injured from the scene.

A spokesman for the Yorkshire Ambulance Service NHS Trust said: "Ambulance clinicians are providing treatment at the scene and are working closely with their emergency service colleagues.

"At this time the number of patients is unknown."

Motorists have been urged to use the M18 or M1 instead. The carriageway is not expected to reopen until 18:00 BST.

One man who was stuck in traffic on the motorway tweeted: "Nine ambulances 4 fire engines and god knows how many police cars have gone past."

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[helihub]

It may be 5 not 6 - the Independent thinks Lincs & Notts are two aircraft. But then they don't mention Yorkshire Air Ambulance specifically.. on this page (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/m62-crash-latest-six-air-ambulances-to-rescue-as-25-injured-in-collision-involving-lorry-and-minibus-8590129.html) they say

Kevin Hodgson, director of operations at Great North Air Ambulance, said they had sent two air ambulances, which were joined by two from North West Air Ambulance and another two from Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire Air Ambulance.


Two from North West in photo below from the story on the Mail website (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315233/Lorry-driver-arrested-M62-horror-crash-minibus-carrying-women-kills-passengers-leaves-injured.html)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/26/article-2315233-197FC75C000005DC-662_634x355.jpg

[onyxcrowle]

I was stuck at the far end of the jam from Manchester. Motorway was solid by Ikea
I diverted past Garforth. The old A1 / A63 was jammed by diverting traffic.
Local radio confirmed six air ambulance.
Two from yorkshire. Two from notts and two from Northwest air ambulance

[helihub]

Lincs & Notts only have one helicopter and confirmed they were there (https://www.facebook.com/Ambucopter/posts/516935578365051)

Great North also confirmed two (https://www.facebook.com/GNairambulance/posts/10151427396082832)

North West - see photo above

Not saying Yorkshire were not there, but their PR machine is behind the curve if they were....

[HeliStudent]

Is it possible that a police helicopter was overhead or landed?

[flying bizzie]

Yes. They could have been tasked to provide aerial photography of the scene for evidential purposes or assist with casevacing a patient.

FB

[jayteeto]

There were 2x dauphin, 2x135, 2x109 and a rozzer 902. Seven in total

[jayteeto]

I am assuming the last one was a 109, didnt actually see it, but heard it.

[LookingForAJob]

Just curious....

The photo shows the aircraft on what looks like a relatively narrow grass verge.

I would have thought that it would be preferable to let down onto the road where the surface conditions are easier to see and there is probably less risk from FOD.

I guess behind the barrier is better protected from vehicles but I just wondered if there are there other reasons that don't come to my mind.

Thanks.

[jayteeto]

All on motorway.

[SilsoeSid]

I would have thought that it would be preferable to let down onto the road where the surface conditions are easier to see and there is probably less risk from FOD.


Mmmm, having noticed the amount of rubbish in motorway central reservations and on hard shoulders ....

Clean Highways | Motorway litter | Litter laws (http://www.cleanhighways.co.uk)
http://www.cleanhighways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/OurLitteredMotorways1.pdf

Our road networks, in particular our motorways are “blighted by rubbish. I am aware that there is legislation in place however ….. it is frankly not working“.

Mike Penning MP
Under-Secretary of State for Transport
2010 – 2012 speaking in March 2010

http://www.cleanhighways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Before3.jpg

http://www.cleanhighways.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Before7.jpg



...and I guess it's also safe to land on astro turf pitches ! :ugh:

[Pol Potty mouth]

I can't help but wonder why Leconfield's Sea King was not used. Surely this incident deprived a lot of areas of their air ambulances, which might be seen as a bit unnecessary when a large aircraft with room for multiple cas was around 20 min flying time away. Thoughts?

[jayteeto]

That would deprive an area of its search and rescue helicopter.
This is what we do, we also help each other in times of great need. If a job had come in at home, we would assess whether to send one back.

[SAR Bloke]

That would deprive an area of its search and rescue helicopter.


That's right. Leconfield's Sea King can't be used for rescuing people in case it is needed to rescue people :ugh:

This is what we do

So do Leconfield if they are asked.

It would be a perfect platform for a job like this that involves multiple casualties but that would involve the air ambulance dispatchers asking for help which is very rare these days.

Why use one or 2 helicopters when you can use 6?

[500AGL]

A factor might have been availability of A&E receiving capability , as they were sent to various hospitals

[Flaxton Flyer]

SAR Bloke - and where would you take all those casualties in your SK? Do you think that maybe rather than dropping them all on one hospital's lap it may just be smarter to spread them around at the various trauma units in the region so no one department gets overwhelmed?

And would you just sit there in your SK waiting until all six / seven casualties had been extracted from the minibus before taking them off to your hospital of choice? Not really the best approach for people requiring urgent treatment is it?

Multiple helicopters means that the casualties can be flown out as soon as they are extracted and stabilised, to a suitable hospital which has capacity to handle them at that time.

I'm sure that if the other AAs were unavailable, Lec would have got a call. As it is, the situation was handled very competently by YAS and no assistance was required. If the minibus had crashed at sea, in the mountains or at night I'm sure you boys would have been called. It didn't, you weren't. :ok:

[SAR Bloke]

If the minibus had crashed at sea, in the mountains or at night I'm sure you boys would have been called. It didn't, you weren't

And that attitude demonstrates the crux of the problem. RAF SAR is just as capable of treating casualties by the roadside as they are in other environments. If the minibus had crashed at sea, in the mountains or at night then I'm sure you boys would have given it a go first and then asked for help when you realised you couldn't do it :ok:

[homonculus]

A helicopter has never treated a patient. It carries people and equipment that may treat patients. The amount of equipment in a HEMS aircraft is greater than in a SAR helicopter.

Horses for courses.

In fact with a major incident HEMS role is primarily to deliver medical staff if they cannot travel by road - don't know if that applies here - and possibly to extract specific patients such as head injured patients who need to go to a regional neurosurgical centre as opposed to the receiving centre.

Using multiple receiving hospitals sounds good but with this number of casualties is often unnecessary and indeed disruptive to the NHS such that it is contraindicated.

I suspect the controllers played safe ( possibly over reacted:yuk:) at the initial call as the number of casualties and the injuries didn't justify this response. Of course HEMS is free to the ambulance services

[SAR Bloke]

The amount of equipment in a HEMS aircraft is greater than in a SAR helicopter.


This is a genuine question. What is carried in a HEMS aircraft that isn't carried in a SAR aircraft?

Also I'd like to add that my previous post was intentionally flippant in response to Flaxton Flyer's post and not what I actually think. It's just exceptionally frustrating when you have an aircraft and crew (often with a fully trained and civilian registered paramedic) on call and you're not asked to help out when an incident like this occurs in your area.

[misterbonkers]

SAR Bloke - A doctor (often useful for RSIs!), morphine, ketamine, autopulse CPR machine might be a few regular additions to HEMS over SAR?

Can a SeaKing land at LGI? (genuine question as I'm unsure).

Homonculus - not really an over reaction given the number of casualties (25!) Ambulances are also generally restricted to take the patient to the nearest centre for treatment (so they are freed up). Air Ambulances have the benefit of being able to choose the most appropriate centre (and in this case help spread the work around so as many patients get access to the best treatment instead of lining the corridor of one hospital waiting for a rather manic theatre crew to work through them all.

Serious bus/coach accidents are often renowned for serious injuries as passengers seldom wear seatbelts and quickly become exposed to sharp metal, broken glass and tarmac at speeds up to 60mph. Not nice.

SAR = Search And Rescue
HEMS = Helicopter Emergency Medical Service

They knew where the bus was...

[SAR Bloke]

They knew where the bus was...

Again, a misunderstanding of what SAR does. They don't have to do Search and Rescue as a package, they can do one or the other, both or neither!!

I've been to plenty of RTCs. The last oil rig I went to hardly involved much searching. IMO the search should be removed from the title. The Sea King is to all intents and purposes a rescue helicopter.

Not sure about LGI as I'm not a Leconfield area specialist. I've landed at LBA at night before but not sure what's available during the day without looking at the book.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

SAR = Search And Rescue


Best we turn down ECMOs in future, eh, SAR Bloke? After all, it doesn't involve searching or rescuing...;)

[Flaxton Flyer]

SARbloke .........."I've been to plenty of RTCs" . Well I've never been to any overwater jobs, nor night jobs and never been called into the mountains to rescue a climber dangling off a cliff. So maybe - just maybe - it is me who is being hard done by here, not you!

Seriously though (and as the ECMO comment just reinforces) it is surely horses for course re assets? The Ambulance Service are obviously going to use their own expensive and highly trained "front line" resources first when appropriate. In the sea/mountain/night/ECMO scenarios AAs would not be the first choice - (with the growing exception of night as this is slowly being adopted around the UK) so outside agencies like yourself would be requested.

And simple chain of command. Get a resource (first responder, DMA whatever) on scene and elevate your response (if required) once you know the situation. ( Learnt that through hard experience - I can't tell you how many times we used to get despatched to "persons trapped" to arrive and find the car door was stuck...)

Our despatchers regularly use SAR assets - when appropriate. SK was definitely not an appropriate asset on the M62 job. But rest assured, next time a minibus full of ECMO patients veers off a mountain road at night and crashes into the sea - I'll be sure to pass your number on!;)

[jayteeto]

SARBLOKE, the circumstances of this one would not suit a SK working on its own. The patients were not all ready at the same time so one helicopter would have been no good. There is only a limited amount of info we can give in a public forum, however the casualties were released over a period of time and taken to different hospitals depending on their triage. We got the first one and flew 20 minutes West to Manchester. Our other aircraft got number two about 7 minutes later and went to leeds. That meant we arrived at 2 hospitals, 50 miles apart at approximately the same time. All flown at 130kts. How would your superSK manage that on its own?
Mateyboy, you do a fabulous job, but so do we. When we think a SAR cab will do a job better, we are the first to request you. I have done this a few times in the last 12 months. Our dispatchers do a great job and also request you when they think you are needed. There is no conspiracy here, we just didn't need you the other day, live with it.
Also ketamine and doctors help.

[vortexadminman]

Only One 109, but one 902 from Lincs Notts,

[misterbonkers]

SAR bloke, not a misunderstanding. It's called tongue in cheek.

In my view there should be large combined para-public assets and small ones. There is so much crossover now it gets daft at times between SAR/HEMS/Police. Even more daft when there is all the bitching about who did and didn't get to attend an incident that makes the news headlines.

But what would have happened if the SK was waiting on the M62 for a patient to be cut free and someone on an oil rig needed rescuing? Can't exactly send the East Midlands 109 or the Humberside ASU to that job

As Flaxton says - the SK was not appropriate on the M62 job and that call was made by people very able to make that call. They made it. Get over it!

HEMS is starting to do night Ops. One day they'll have winches too. And one day it will all merge into one big picture and everyone will be happily flying together instead of grumbling about who gets to do what.

Perhaps civvies should start complaining about why they don't get as many medals!