If Scotland Declares UDI..........

[ian16th]

..... I assume that the white St. Andrew's Cross and its blue background will be removed from the Union Flag.

But, will the blue be removed from the RAF roundel?

[smujsmith]

I would assume not. The union flag, as I understand it, was designed and approved as a result of the amalgamation of the union of Scotland, England and Wales (is Ireland in there also ?). As such any break up of the union would suggest removal of the departing country's contribution to the flag. The roundel however, is I believe an accepted marking relevant to the Royal Air Force. As, I suspect, Scotland's departure would not mean a title change for the worlds best (though small) Air Force, I believe the markings would remain the same. Hope that makes sense, I'm sure someone who is a font of wisdom will come along and explain it better than I can. :\

Smudge

[CoffmanStarter]

Ian ... we've had a go at this one before ... by all means carry on but suggest you don your steel bowler ...

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/13049/popcorn.gif

[ian16th]

CS

Sorry, I missed it.

We elderly sleep a lot :)

[CoffmanStarter]

No worries mate :ok:

[hval]

Ian16th,

I didn't see the other thread either.

The roundel used by the R.A.F. (RFC at the time) Is based on an idea the French had. They used the colours of their flag, but as a roundel. The roundel is a lot easier to see than flags which may be confused. The RFC reversed the colours used by the French and that has become the standard.

Many nations use the roundel, each different. With Scotland becoming an independent nation I am fairly certain that a different roundel, or other form of identification, would be required. Something that is not easily confused with the R.A.F. roundel. You may also find that those who really want independence will want as little as possible to remind them of England.

[Easy Street]

Perhaps we could replace the blue in the Union flag with green from the Welsh flag...

...this would leave the RAF with the same roundel as the Iranian Air Force :eek:

[NutLoose]

They've already started marking up some aircraft for the New Scottish Airforce with blue crosses :E

http://www.demobbed.org.uk/images/xm404.jpg

[hval]

Neil,

A quality aircraft. One previous owner? Low mileage?

[OutlawPete]

Perhaps we could replace the blue in the Union flag with green from the Welsh flag...

...this would leave the RAF with the same roundel as the Iranian Air Force

The Welsh may have a different opinion on that.

Scotland's separation to make Welsh independence 'inevitable' | This is South Wales (http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Scots-separation-make-independence-inevitable/story-18115599-detail/story.html)




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[Laarbruch72]

They've already started marking up some aircraft for the New Scottish Airforce with blue crosses http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Why would a Scottish Air Force have blue crosses? You might be confusing the Scots saltire with the Russian Navy ensign? (Although of course both flags have roots in the St Andrew legend, hence the colours).

[Roland Pulfrew]

Smuj

is Ireland in there also ?

Er St Patrick's Cross?!? The red diagonals. It's the Welsh that are missing from the Union Flag.

I see no reason for the RAF to change their roundels when Scotland declares UDI. The Scots will have to design their own roundel (which could be interesting as most of the blue and white combos are already taken). The RAF will still be the RAF and the RAF's internationally recognised markings are a red, white and blue roundel; therefore absolutely no need to change.

[NutLoose]

Well they could replace the red dot with a red thistle or a rampant lion similar to

Scotland Thistle Flag Shield Embroidered Patch sp47 (http://www.1000flags.co.uk/scotland-thistle-flag-shield-embroidered-patch-sp47-11289-p.asp)

That would then follow the likes of New Zealand and Australia's versions on a theme.

[Buster Hyman]

Don't forget Canada Nutty.

But, I liked the RAAF's wartime roundel...

http://notquitemechanised.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/hudsonfe.jpg

[SomeGuyOnTheDeck]

Um, Buster, you'll find that the RAF also used white-and-blue roundels in SEAC (South-East Asia Command) during WW2. They decided that having aircraft flying around with bright red circles on the wings etc tended to cause problems: RAF - The Royal Air Force RoundelThe Royal Air Force Roundel (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/theroyalairforceroundel.cfm)

[sisemen]

The Welsh might have a bit of a prob. It's only a principality not a country which is why its flag does not form part of the Union Flag.

As SGOTD says - the red bit in the roundel was the bit that the Americans fired on (we all know how good they are at identifying friendly forces :eek:).

[Buster Hyman]

Um, yep...all I said was that I liked it. :confused:

[onetrack]

With the Scots well-known cultural propensity for penny-pinching - wouldn't any Scottish Air Force A/C be easily identifiable, by the "X" outlines of the numerous Band-Aids?? :)

I can see one on the nose of the A/C in Nutloose's pic already. It's just outlining to the LAME's where they need to position the Band-Aids. :)

[izod tester]

Just being pedantic here, but the rounded is not just used by the RAF. It is also displayed on RN and AAC aircraft too.

Personally, I think that a red outer circle with a red dragon in the centre white portion would look nice.

[BEagle]

2013 - Scotland's First Minister attempts to explain his plans for Scottish independence:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/FB_1_zps9dbfc3b9.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/FB_1_zps9dbfc3b9.jpg.html)

2015 - His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Alhaji Dr. Idi Salmond Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE seen here taking the salute at the annual Independence Day parade:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/FB-2_zpsb3e084c8.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/FB-2_zpsb3e084c8.jpg.html)

When asked for a statement, Salmond merely replied "See you Jimmy - d'ya wanna drink, eh? Noo then, get' in mah' belly!"

[Whenurhappy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the modern Blue and White roundel are the insignia of the Argentinian Air Force...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Roundel_of_Argentina.svg/600px-Roundel_of_Argentina.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Roundel_of_Argentina.svg)

[hval]

Wheurhappy,

the modern Blue and White roundel are the insignia of the Argentinian Air Force...

Do not put ideas in to Alex Salmonds head.

[BEagle]

Or the Hellenic Air Force:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/HAF_zpse1e4dd67.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/HAF_zpse1e4dd67.jpg.html)

But does anyone seriously think that there'd be any Scots Air Force?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Or Finnish

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Finnish_air_force_roundel.svg

[CoffmanStarter]

I'm thinking that something like this would be more appropriate ... it would certainly help with our Air to Air Training costs :E

http://www.mvelks.com/Portals/0/Elks_Content/Site_Images/Target-Paper-Target-Sheet-for-Shooting.jpg

[Courtney Mil]

Actually, the pre-war Finnish one was this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Finland_roundel_WW2_border.png

Perhaps Salmond could come up with a variation on that theme.

[OutlawPete]

Or the Hellenic Air Force:

IMAGE#1


But does anyone seriously think that there'd be any Scots Air Force?

I am a unionist but I think it's fairly obvious that a post independence Scottish foreign policy would negate the need for an air force as we know it but it's fair to say that it would be there in some form or other. Sure, it might only be one base but I can't understand why people think there would be nothing.

As usual this old argument will probably fall back on the old "how will Scotland be able to pay for it without England".

Just fine I reckon, there's a lot of growth here just now (anyone overflown ABZ recently and noticed all the building work going on?). In case you hadn't noticed the UK (which England pays for all by itself apparently) ain't doing so good itself.

Maybe the question should be, how much of the RAF will be left in two years time? Much worse than it is now, worse still if Scottish (then Welsh, Cornish?) independence goes ahead.



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[Courtney Mil]

Outlaw, you'll find some of the arguments here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/509190-scottish-air-force.html

:ok:

[ian16th]

hval,

During my RAF service I was one of the very few lucky people to be assigned to the Royal Air Force Liaison Party that was at Base Aérienne 125 Istres until May 1958 and then at Base Aérienne 115 Orange-Caritat, I very quickly learnt to look for the red or blue being at the leading edge of a/c tail fins.

Ah! Happy Daze :)

[CoffmanStarter]

Preparations are well in hand to re-take Scotland should need be :E

1,300 troops from 16 Air Assault Brigade, the British Army’s rapid reaction force, and 300 French troops from the 11th Parachute Brigade arrived by air in the West Freugh area of Scotland.

The exercise scenario tasked them with stabilising an area disputed by 2 fictional nations divided by economic and ethnic factors.

Just love the exercise scenario :D

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/9894/HQScot-2013-035-8158g.jpg

More here ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-and-french-troops-jump-into-joint-warrior

Best ...

Coff.

[Fareastdriver]

There is a contingency plan for everything.

[500N]

"The exercise scenario tasked them with stabilising an area disputed by 2 fictional nations divided by economic and ethnic factors.

Someone had to have done that as a joke because of where the
exercise was held.

Very well done though.

[walter kennedy]

Well if they tried to set up as a viable independent sovereign nation for the benefit of Scots they'd probably get the same economic treatment as NZ in the 70's, perhaps even as harsh as Rhodesia - if they dug in perhaps the full treatment Serbia got - the writing was on the wall for nation states after the defeat of nationalism in WW2. However, if they were to be like England, open borders, an economic region of the international community, just a bit of local administration differences and some local cultural decoration etc, then no problem.
They should have broke off when North Sea oil came about and managed that resource like Norway as opposed to having the gnomes of London squander it.

[sisemen]

It's all speculation. The Scots are too canny to throw their lot in with Salmond and go it alone. He's great as a protest vote but as for the rest .......nah.

[OutlawPete]

Preparations are well in hand to re-take Scotland should need be ...

Coff.

Pleased to hear it fella, maybe some folk south of the border do give a damn about hanging onto us after all!


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[CoffmanStarter]

OP ... Absobloodylutely mate :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

I'd heard that preparations were in hand to boot them out in event of a "no" vote.

[betty swallox]

I'm in the RAF.
And Scottish.
I don't think this will happen!

But this is a (mildly) amusing thread. Ish....

[Roland Pulfrew]

I'm in the RAF and Scottish

Ah yes but will We Eck be allowing you a vote where you are? And which force will you be joining/staying with after the vote, or will you be seeking asylum in the South?;):ok:

[baffman]

Ah yes but will We Eck be allowing you a vote where you are? And which force will you be joining/staying with after the vote, or will you be seeking asylum in the South?

Please excuse my making a serious point, but service personnel who can say they would be in Scotland, but for being in the service, can register as service voters in a Scottish constituency and thus be eligible to vote in the independence referendum.

Not saying there aren't issues for some about registration and about voting, but many Scottish personnel will have a vote if they take the trouble to register.

Member of the Armed Forces (or husband, wife, civil partner) - About my vote, produced by The Electoral Commission (http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register_to_vote/armed_forces.aspx)

[Kluseau]

Please excuse my making a serious point, but service personnel who can say they would be in Scotland, but for being in the service, can register as service voters in a Scottish constituency and thus be eligible to vote in the independence referendum.


Well said. The most important thing abut the referendum next September is that we get a definitive result, one way or the other, based on a large turnout. Then we can get on with the rest of our lives on the basis of a "clear and settled" view, either as an independent nation or as the only part of the UK that has actually voted to be part of the UK...

[Fareastdriver]

It doesn't matter which way it goes. Once any euphoria wears off the usual suspects moaning about being in the UK will come up to say that they would have been better off remaining,,, and so it will go on.

[Courtney Mil]

we get a definitive result, one way or the other, based on a large turnout. Then we can get on with the rest of our lives on the basis of a "clear and settled" view, either as an independent nation or as the only part of the UK that has actually voted to be part of the UK...

Hmm. Well didn't we think that when there was a Welsh devolution referendum in 1979? Or the UK's referendum on continued EU membership in 1975? Oops, it was the EC then, wasn't it? Plaid Cymru are already saying that once Scotland leaves the Union it's only time until Cymru does too, wherever Cymru is. It's only all over until the next time.

[OutlawPete]

Hmm. Well didn't we think that when there was a Welsh devolution referendum in 1979? Or the UK's referendum on continued EU membership in 1975? Oops, it was the EC then, wasn't it? Plaid Cymru are already saying that once Scotland leaves the Union it's only time until Cymru does too, wherever Cymru is. It's only all over until the next time.

CM, the confusing aspect for the whole affair is when did the Scots people actually ask for a vote on this. I don't know anyone who asked for it or wants it. My understanding is that Salmonds lot were voted in and were seen to be doing a reasonable job of local governing. Re-election went to their heads and before we know it we've had this sh! te thrust upon us.

With regards to the Welsh situation, I recall reading somewhere that one of Whitehalls reactions to Scottish Independence would be to disolve the Welsh Assembly. Presumably to neuter any further uprisings.


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[Courtney Mil]

Interesting point there, Outlaw. I hadn't really thought of that.

If they do that to Wales, won't they start burning cottages again?

[HAS59]

Outlaw Pete is right,

... the people living in Scotland did not ask for a referendum on 'independence' (whatever that means in the twenty first century) - this "Braveheart Opinion Poll" was foisted upon us by Wee Eck and his gang of dreamers.

The interesting thing is the un-answered (and perhaps un-answerable) question "What is a Scots Person?". The vote will be taken next September by "The people of Scotland" i.e. those living in the county at the time (including those over 16) This of course includes all the latest 'clans' from Eastern Europe (- and so it should.) A legal definition of 'Scottish' would make interesting reading.

This poll will leave huge numbers of 'native born Scots' living outside the country of their birth without a vote. How will they feel about the outcome?

and...

Does anyone know how a 'Nuclear Free Scotland' would be able to join NATO without accepting NATO's stance on Nuclear weapons?

It looks a right mess...

[onetrack]

"What is a Scots Person?"

HAS59 - My grandfather Jimmy McLean (on my mothers side) would have been able to settle that question admirably. With 5 daughters, he'd bail up any one of them that had been seen with "a lad".
He'd say, "I see ye've got a laddie. What's his (sur)name?". If one of my Aunties answered, "Smith", grandpop would exclaim in dismay, "A SASSENACH!!?", and turn away in disgust.
If the Auntie answered, "McKay, or McDonald, or McKenzie, or McMillan, or McPherson - grandpop would nod knowingly and say, "Aye, good name, that!"
A true highlander, with his father born in Ballachulish, he was very averse to any dilution of good Scottish bloodlines, with the sworn enemies from over the border. :)

[Courtney Mil]

Perhaps they need a Scottishness exam. Multiple choice, of course.

1. Which of these is/are a great Scottish musician(s):
a. Andy Stewart
b. Lulu
c. Alex Harvey
d. Wet Wet Wet
e. All the above
f. None of the above
2. Which side did the Scots fight on in the Battle of Culloden Moor?
a. The Jacobites
b. The Loyalists
c. Neither
d. Both
3. Which of these were invented in Scotland:
a. Clan Tartans
b. The television
c. Whisky
d. Haggis
4. You're in a bar on a Saturday evening when an Englishman offers to buy you a pint. Do you:
a. Punch him because he must be a poof
b. Accept his offer gratefully then punch him
c. Punch him and steal his wallet
d. Just punch him
5. You're at a Celtic v Rangers match. One of your players fouls an opponent. After the match you meet an opposition fan. Do you:
a. Offer to buy him a drink to appologize
b. Punch him because he must be a poof
c. Punch him and steal his wallet
d. Just punch him.
Answers.
1 c, all the rest are rubbish.
2 d, but there were lots of French, Irish, English, Germans and Austrians too.
3 b, clan tartans invented by the English (apparently), whisky invented in Italy, Haggis invented in Rome.
4 b, obviously.
5 d, obviously.
:ok:

[OutlawPete]

CM, you're showing some potential there fella. Ever considered becoming a spin doctor for the SNP?
An excellent post, funny, honest and educational.

I didn't know tartan was an English invention? Please don't tell me it's somehow connected to all that Morris dancing paraphernalia you lot seem to enjoy. ..that would spoil my day. :-)


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[Courtney Mil]

Ah, morris dancing. Makes me proud to be English

http://www.cotswolds.info/images/ralph/cotswold_morris_dancers.jpg

Why do Morris dancers wear bells? So they can annoy blind people as well.

A bus load of Morris Dancers has been hijacked by terrorists. The terrorists threatened to release one every hour until all their demands are met.

The difference between an onion and accordion? People cry when they chop up onions.

How do you make two accordionists play in time? Shoot one of them.

[G-F0RC3]

... the people living in Scotland did not ask for a referendum on 'independence' (whatever that means in the twenty first century) - this "Braveheart Opinion Poll" was foisted upon us by Wee Eck and his gang of dreamers.

I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense. It was in the SNP manifesto that if they won they'd hold a referendum on Scottish Independence. People don't vote for particular policies, they vote for parties based on their policies; and therefore give those parties a mandate to go about making their policies a reality. By your reasoning the people didn't vote for almost anything any government has ever decided to do.


This poll will leave huge numbers of 'native born Scots' living outside the country of their birth without a vote. How will they feel about the outcome?

This is how all elections work. If you aren't on the electoral register then you cannot vote. You cannot be on the register if you don't live in the constituency (with a few exceptions). It would be unworkable to allow anyone born in a country (but not living in it) to cast a vote in their election. It'd also be democratically flawed. Electing representatives and determining the future of a country is - as it should be - driven by the people whom it effects, not by those who have some apparent arbitrary birth right to have their say.

:ok:

[Kluseau]

Hm... first recorded Tartan, allegedly, was on a statue of the Roman Emperor Caracalla (about AD200) found in Morocco, and various points of origin in central Europe and the middle east have also been claimed.

There is however a tradition that the kilt normally worn today was invented in about 1720 by an Englishman called Thomas Rawlinson, who at the time was managing an iron works in the Highlands (it was cheaper to ship the iron ore to the source of the charcoal used to smelt it than vice versa). Seems he decided the traditional Highland "great kilt", comprising several miles of material wrapped around the waist and the spare chucked over the shoulder was not very practical, so he chopped it about a bit and came up with the "small kilt" that now supports a whole industry...

[Courtney Mil]

That must have been it then, Kluseau. I can sleep peacefully tonight now. :ok:

[SOSL]

I16. We're not planning UDI - just planning to vote about a lawful separation.

GF3. "You cannot be on the register if you don't live in the constituency (with a few exceptions). "

I was one of the exceptions, I had a proxy vote in Glenrothes for about 20 yrs - never lived there. Lived in Oman, Cyprus and all over UK. Voted by proxy in every election I could.

Rgds SOS

[baffman]

Well said, SOSL.

From the service voter electoral registration form:

Please give the full UK address where you would like to register. This can be:
■ the address where you or your spouse or civil partner are currently living
■ where you would be living if you were not in the Armed Forces
■ if you cannot say where you would be living, give your last UK address before you took up the post
If one of these is an address in Scotland, you can register in that constituency and in due course vote in the referendum.

Member of the Armed Forces (or husband, wife, civil partner) - About my vote, produced by The Electoral Commission (http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register_to_vote/armed_forces.aspx)

[Wwyvern]

Aha, Courtney.

You claim to be English -really? Did you not earlier state that you were descended from French pirates? Living in England does not make you English. You may be a British citizen (see passport) but what is your ethnicity? I'd say "French", if your "pirate" claim is true. Your native language is obviously not "English" if you think "apologise" is spelled with two "p"s.

I grant that you have been well trained in the British way as you share my views of Morris dancing. Can't get the "Smile" icon to work.

[Courtney Mil]

True enough, mon brave. That's why I'm moving back to France. It's hard to get away with, Courtnage doesn't even sound English, does it? So it's back to the home port of Robert Surcouf.

You got me there, brother.

[Rob Courtney]

Damn and heres me thinking Courtney was Irish :{

Ah well back to eating snails I suppose!

[Courtney Mil]

I was once.

[HAS59]

Onetrack,
Your grandfather, (a true highlander) illustrated the problem of ‘what is a Scots person?’ by denouncing those apparent Englishmen as “Sassenachs.” A term meaning ‘Lowlander’ (or specifically not a highlander), many Sassenachs born south of the highlands but north of the border are still Scots. Or would your grandfather disagree?

G-F0RC3,
People living in Scotland did not ask for the “Braveheart Opinion Poll” – but as it was what the SNP were going to do anyway we were left with little alternative, as a slim majority apparently considered all the other parties were worse. That still doesn’t make it a good idea or ‘the will of the people’. Okay I know democracy isn’t perfect.
And I know how elections work, thank you, I have been a ‘Service voter’ whilst serving overseas (living in one country while legally voting in another one). I was not suggesting that all ‘native Scots’ should have the vote, I asked ‘How will they feel about the outcome?’ The vast majority of these ‘native Scots in exile’ will have chosen to live and work outside their homeland – I wondered if this had any bearing on the debate.

And – about the Non Nuclear Scotland question – anyone got any thoughts as to how this would work? The SNP say (at the moment) that they want an Independent Scotland to be in NATO.
Yet the NATO Strategic Concept adopted by the Allies at the Lisbon Summit in 2010 confirmed that as long as there are nuclear weapons in the world NATO will remain a nuclear Alliance.
I’m curious how the NATO Alliance could include a nation who appear to disagree with a major element of their Strategic Concept.

[Kluseau]

The non-nuclear question. A difficult circle to square, and all the more so given the employment impact of the Clyde submarine bases.

But does the SNP stance on nuclear weapons differ markedly from that of Denmark, which has been used in the Scottish press as an exemplar (if that's the right word) of how a separate Scotland might develop as far as defence is concerned?

[rab-k]

Having read the contributions here I can safely say that I haven't seen so much mince since the BBC showed several skip-loads of the stuff during the horse meat scandal.

The sneering contempt which apparent die-hard Unionists on this thread show towards their so called fellow countrymen is almost palpable.

I recon if I were to link this thread on a Bitter Together website/discussion forum as an example of how citizens in other parts of the UK value Scotland's continued membership of it, the ratio of those in Scotland in favour of continuing that relationship would probably drop from the current level of 2:1 to something nearer 1:2.

So post the next GE, should 'Call Me Dave' find himself with a majority of 10 in the House of Horrors and calls, as promised, for an In/Out referendum on the EU, will we see those same contributors to this thread pitching up to claim that the people living in the UK "did not ask for it"? Aye right!

God help the Welsh if Scotland does vote Yes for they'll be on the receiving end of all this sh!te until such time as they follow the Scots and (majority of) the Irish in deciding on a spot of DIY, for better or worse.

It'll certainly be interesting watching the remainder of the 'UK of Whatever' either turn its bigoted attention in upon itself in a game of rich South versus poor North or, alternatively, upon those poor sods across the North Channel stuck between a rock and a hard place. Perhaps being outwith the EU will once again open up the French and Germans to even more of a verbal hand-bagging than the Great Margaret herself achieved.

Can't wait to see which way that little scenario plays out...

[GreenKnight121]

We just need the Scots (and then the Welsh) to vote for independence... and then run an election for unification of Scotland, Eire, and Wales into a Celtic Republic.

:E:E:E

[HAS59]

Kluseau,
Is the Danish stance still ‘…if a vessel visiting Denmark has nuclear weapons on board we will be okay about that as long as we don’t actually know for sure that there are nuclear weapons on board’…? Not exactly the same as being a Non-Nuclear Country I would have thought.
Denmark signed up to the NATO Strategic Concept of remaining a Nuclear Alliance at the Lisbon Summit. Would Scotland do the same at a future summit?

Rab-k,
I had hoped what you thought was sneering contempt by some on here was meant to be humorous (if stereotypical) banter. We are all in the same boat, rudderless and going against the tide at times no matter how hard we paddle.
I guess we all get the political leadership we deserve because the system is out of date and ultimately flawed. Is it a true democracy when you vote for a person who represents a party when you disagree with some (but not all) of that parties manifesto? That’s not much of a choice.
The average bloke doesn't form party policy but has to decide which bunch of untrustworthy power-hungry creeps to support based on whether he can tell truth from fiction during an election campaign. It is highly unlikely that anyone actually agrees on everything ‘their’ party promises to do, when they “come into power”.
So if Dave gets to stay after the next ‘spin doctored power poll’ just how many people who voted for ‘him’ wanted all his policies (i.e. EU in/out).
People may well have the right to say that they ‘did not ask for it’ (of any policy) as the policies were presented as a whole – take it or leave it. Where’s the ‘choice’ in that? The ‘haves’ will continue to shaft/ignore the ‘have nots’ regardless of nationality. Steak or mince?

[onetrack]

HAS59 - I was under the distinct impression that the term, "Sassenach" as used by my grandfather, referred specifically to anyone of English birth and descent.
I gather the word has it's origins in "Saxon", as to define English people as a totally different group to Celtic groups - and essentially an enemy, or a lower class than the Celts.
My grandfather was fluent in Gaelic and my mother remarked how he was once called upon to interpret for some Irish navvies employed in Edinburgh, who spoke no English; and to whom, work instructions from the (English-speaking) foreman were unable to be communicated.

Urban Dictionary: sassenach (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sassenach)

Saxons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons) (see Celtic languages)

[Biggus]

While not disputing what ontrack's Grandfather personally meant by the term, it would appear that sassenach can also mean a Lowland Scot:

Definition of Sassenach | Collins English Dictionary (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/sassenach)

Sassenachs - definition of Sassenachs by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sassenachs)

Dictionary of Difficult Words - sassenach (http://www.talktalk.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0011538.html)


As for the concept of whether the people of Scotland "asked for a referendum on Independence", one can debate that until the cows come home. Yes, it was part of the SNP manifesto, so some would argue that, as they are the party in power, then the people voted for it. However, as is the case with many governments in recent years, and despite a reasonable attempt to produce a system which uses proportion representation, the SNP won by polling less than 50% of the vote (about 45% in fact). One could therefore equally well argue that, since 55% of the people voting didn't choose the SNP, then the people of Scotland didn't vote for a referendum of Independence. That's without even mentioning how many of the Scottish people didn't bother to vote at all, which drops the SNP's mandate to around 25% of those eligible to vote.

I'm not picking on the SNP in particular here, for many years the UK government has been formed by a party winning with about 40% of the vote from those that could actually be bothered to turn out.

However, that discusion is largely irrelevant. We are where we are. Have the "rules" for this referendum, in terms of winning margin, been decided yet? Will a 50.05% vote for Independence, vs 49.95% vote to maintain the status quo, result in an Independent Scotland. Does the "Yes" vote need to exceed a certain figure, whether that be 60%, 66%, ..... etc? Or has that little nicety not been decided/announced yet?

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney a Francophile Irish Pirate ... :D

[tonker]

The French flag should be a white cross on a white background;)

[mad_jock]

It think you might find that independence may cause previously none voting scots to actually make the effort to vote.

And I suspect it will be the NO voters who will make the effort.

[sisemen]

Oh dear. It's not looking good :\
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/scots-not-convinced-on-independence-vote/story-fnb64oi6-1226631826946)

THE campaign for an independent Scotland had a fresh setback at the weekend when a poll showed 60 per cent of Scots think neither First Minister Alex Salmond nor his Scottish National Party has made a convincing case so far.

The YouGov poll for the pro-union Better Together group shows 62 per cent of more than 1000 respondents said the case was either "not very convincing" or "not convincing at all".

More than a fifth of those respondents had voted for the Nationalists in parliamentary elections.

Can't wait to see which way that little scenario plays out...

[G-F0RC3]

People living in Scotland did not ask for the “Braveheart Opinion Poll” – but as it was what the SNP were going to do anyway we were left with little alternative, as a slim majority apparently considered all the other parties were worse. That still doesn’t make it a good idea or ‘the will of the people’. Okay I know democracy isn’t perfect.

My original point stands regarding what the people asked for. But I wanted to touch on your "slim majority" point. The Scottish Parliament was specifically designed to make it remarkably difficult to win an overall majority. The SNP doing so was pretty epic. So while the maths might suggest it was a slim majority, it's still a very significant one, and does clearly give them a mandate to hold the referendum whether you agree with it or not. I know lots of people on both sides of the argument, and one thing they almost all have in common is their agreement in holding the referendum and giving the people their say. It's impractical to suggest that the people didn't want it; because the only thing which matters is how people vote in elections - and that clearly suggests that enough people did want it.

And remember; not all SNP voters want independence just like not all Labour voters want the Union. So, given how everyone voted and the fairly large number of people who do want independence, the only sensible way to settle it is with a referendum.

Whether independence is a good idea or not is a different debate (and probably not one for this topic). :)

[onetrack]

I would personally doubt that there would be a majority vote for Scottish secession, despite the efforts of the secessionists. The inherent costs of maintaining a smaller separate country would weigh heavily on Scottish people individually.
I would see the greatest gripe from the Scots as the lack of local input into decisions affecting Scotland, being the main driver in the secession argument.
However, this could easily be countered by Britain offering some devolvement in British Govt decision making, towards the Scots.

I don't think there's much difference in Scotlands cry for secession, as there was in Western Australia's drive for secession in the 1930's. In 1930, Sir James Mitchells W.A. Govt was elected on a platform of secession.
W.A., as always, was producing the major share of Australia's wealth in the form of gold, wool and wheat - and considered it was getting a rough deal from the Federal Govt. A referendum in 1933 saw West Aussies vote more than 3 to 2 in favour of secession.

A petition to the British Parliament requesting independence was rejected on the basis that only a Commonwealth could petition for seccession - not an individual state.
The W.A. secession move was stopped in its tracks, as there was no way the Australian Federal Govt was going to agree to it.

W.A. would have had a tough time on its own, trying raise its own defence forces, Navy, and all the necessary Govt adminstration, plus utilities such as power and communications - for what was then, a population of about 440,000 people. However, perhaps the great mineral wealth of the State might have supported independence; it's hard to say.

In the case of Scotland, I don't see where the country has adequate reserves of national wealth to prop up its independance.
Manufacturing? You have to compete with the Chinese today.
Coal? Hmmm, seems like coal is on the nose as far as fuel goes, and much Scottish coal is difficult and costly to mine.
Oil & Gas? Well .. unless there's a major discovery, no, I can't see that being a major, expanding future industry. The existing O&G industry in Scotland is pretty static.
That leaves tourism. Yes, Scotland is a nice place to visit - for 4 months of the year, unless you like plowing through snow drifts.

My mother left Scotland in 1928 because she saw no great future for herself there. Life was very hard in both Britain and Scotland in the 1920's, much more so than in Australia at that time.
I believe she certainly lived a better life overall, in Australia, and she never wanted to return to Scotland to live. I don't think a great deal has changed in the intervening 85 yrs.

[G-F0RC3]

...which drops the SNP's mandate to around 25% of those eligible to vote.

Not quite Biggus, because this would assume that everyone who didn't vote didn't want the SNP. That's why voting figures should not consider the people who don't vote when determining a winner.

But no political system is perfect. We can only work with the system we've got unless we vote to change it. Changing it can improve things, but make other things worse. Given that most agreed to have the voting system that we do have, we all therefore agree that the system in place decides who can do what. We can't then simply change the rules when it doesn't suit our argument. :)

[baffman]

I would see the greatest gripe from the Scots as the lack of local input into decisions affecting Scotland, being the main driver in the secession argument.
However, this could easily be countered by Britain offering some devolvement in British Govt decision making, towards the Scots.onetrack, I appreciate you are in Australia but I get the feeling you are not fully up to speed with the current state of devolution in Scotland.

[ian16th]

Baffman,

During my service time, I too had a Proxy Vote, this proxy was with my father.

One time, I was home on leave over an election. So I rocked up to cast my vote, to be informed by the jobsworth at the desk that I couldn't vote, as I was a registered 'Service Voter'.

It took a little forceful arguing on my part, to bypass the said jobsworth and to see her superior jobsworth and actually mark my cross.

[OutlawPete]

The sneering contempt which apparent die-hard Unionists on this thread show towards their so called fellow countrymen is almost palpable.


Rab, I can only assume you refer to my post #49 which came after Courntney Mil's Scottishness exam and if it caused offense I sincerely apologise.

I rather hoped the irony in my response would have been transparent in so much as it was fairly clear (to me anyway) CM was purely pi $$ taking and merited a flippant response. One of the things we Scots do well is laugh at ourselves and I make no apology for doing that.

My wish for Scotland to remain part of the union hardly amounts to "sneering contempt" for those who disagree. You have your opinion, I have mine.

For me this has never been about whether Scotland 'could' be successful post independence, I have no doubt at all it is capable of that. It's more about 'should' we do it and I think we have a better future as part of the UK.


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[Biggus]

Do I take it that means nobody knows the answer...?




G-FORC3,

One reason why voting should be compulsory!!

[Always Up]

Perhaps they need a Scottishness exam. Multiple choice, of course.

1. Which of these is/are a great Scottish musician(s):
[INDENT]a. Andy Stewart
be rest are rubbish.[/SIZE]
2 d, but there were lots of French, Irish, English, Germans and Austrians too.
3 b, clan tartans invented by the English (apparently), whisky invented in Italy, Haggis invented in Rome.
4 b, obviously.
5 d, obviously.
:ok:



What a load of bile this is, Courtney you must be particularly well balanced with the size of those chips you are carrying mate. A typical whinging pom. Haven't followed the independence thing for a while but now of the mind to say Scotland go for it - high time you dropped the baggage of these outdated little Englanders. Visited the UK lots over the past years and always found the celtic nations to be by far the more hospitable - England has no real sense of itself. So go for it Scotland let the whingers down south carry themselves.

At the beginning of time God was discussing the creation of the world with the Angel Gabriel. Leaning back in His golden throne, He told him of His plans for Scotland.

"Gabriel," said God, "I am going to give Scotland towering mountains and magnificent glens resplendent with purple heather. Red deer will roam the countryside, golden eagles will circle in the skies, salmon will leap in the crystal clear rivers and lochs, and the surrounding seas will team with fish. Agriculture will flourish and there will be a glorious coming together of water with barley to be known as whisky. Coal, oil, gas - all will be there. The Scots will be intelligent, innovative, industrious and......."

"Wait a minute!" interrupted Gabriel. "Are you not being just a wee bit too generous to these Scots?"

But the Almighty replied, "Ah, but here is the sad part - I haven't told you yet who their neighbours will be!";)

[TomJoad]

Ok I stand by to be corrected but I believe the colour scheme of the RAF roundle has nothing to do with the Union flag. The colours were chosen as the reverse of those used by the French who had adopted use of the roundle as a visual identifier before us. Apart from that why waste money and effort changing it, it ain't a national symbol.

[Courtney Mil]

Straight out of Wikipedia, Tom. The roundel's colours were chosen because of the national colours, the reversal of the order of the colours was to distinguish it from that of the French. A subtle, but important difference. So it is the national colours.

[TomJoad]

But not so much in the national conscious as such I bet; so again will it really matter, I think not. In this day an age why not offer it up for commercial sponsorship.


ok BP, BAE you get the idea . Same type of thing as is being down by teh Bloodhound team . Forgotten how to post pictures so use your imagination - circle - white, red with company logo:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

I hope the last bit there was a joke, but as for national conscious, I would guess it's seen as a symbol of the UK. Let's just hope it remains that way and that all our collective (here, I mean) speculation and banter is about something that never happens.

[TomJoad]

Err no i was being serious actually! Maybe its an age thing! Anyway i'm sure if you did a poll of the man in the street his national consciousness would no more associate the roundel with the RAF than he would take it as a national symbol. Tell you what I'll test on the schoolies tomorrow.;)

[Courtney Mil]

Fair enough. I'd be very surprised it you showed a roundel to anyone in the UK that they's not say "RAF". I'll be interested in your straw poll.

[G-F0RC3]

Do I take it that means nobody knows the answer...?

Not me. :confused:


One reason why voting should be compulsory!!

I used to think this but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps the right to vote is as important as the right to decide not to. Free will and such? I'm genuinely on the fence with that one. :ooh:

[TomJoad]

At the beginning of time God was discussing the creation of the world with the Angel Gabriel. Leaning back in His golden throne, He told him of His plans for Scotland.

"Gabriel," said God, "I am going to give Scotland towering mountains and magnificent glens resplendent with purple heather. Red deer will roam the countryside, golden eagles will circle in the skies, salmon will leap in the crystal clear rivers and lochs, and the surrounding seas will team with fish. Agriculture will flourish and there will be a glorious coming together of water with barley to be known as whisky. Coal, oil, gas - all will be there. The Scots will be intelligent, innovative, industrious and......."

"Wait a minute!" interrupted Gabriel. "Are you not being just a wee bit too generous to these Scots?"

But the Almighty replied, "Ah, but here is the sad part - I haven't told you yet who their neighbours will be!";)

Always - very funny, nearly wet myself - haven't seen that before:D:D:D:D:D Oh and as a settler here myself i must agree the Scots are far more chilled, down to earth and hospitable than most in the UK. But watch out if you put on any airs and graces they don't give a hoot for rank or position " a man's a man for all that" etc. The UK would certainly be the poorer if Scotland left in more ways than it would currently ken!

[alwayslookingup]

Article 1, Treaty of Union 1707 provides;-

I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England,shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

(my emphasis). So it looks like it'll be Aunty Betty's choice as to what features on the roundels, though sharp eyed will notice it mentions nothing about in the air

[TomJoad]

Article 1, Treaty of Union 1707 provides;-

I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England,shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdombe such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

(my emphasis). So it looks like it'll be Aunty Betty's choice as to what features on the roundels, though sharp eyed will notice it mentions nothing about in the air

Lol look's like HM has been usurped by a quaint notion of democracy - maybe she hasn't been told that it's the voter who decides on what the
happy ever after looks like . But ok we will let her decide on the roundel.;)

[Courtney Mil]

Hopefully it won't come to that, Tom.

[TomJoad]

Almost certain it won't wrt the independence vote but I'm equally certain that the current political/constitutional framework of the UK will be subject to significant change following the referendum. Scotland needs greater autonomy and to be under less influence from the muppets in westminster. I'd go further to say that rest of the UK (North of England in particular) needs the change as well. The dominance of London and the south of England (concentration of wealth and influence) is stiffling. Scotland will ultimately get independence, ironically perhaps, within the UK by changing the UK itself - once again, as much as you may not like to acknowledge it, it is the Scots that will take the lead in shaping what we call the UK. I see a level of maturity and intellect here in their political debate that is missing from Westminster. Its not moribund by holding on to past glories or trying to be a big player, its more forward looking - its hungry for renewal and change. Like it or not they will reshape the UK.

Anyway back to the OP, I still think sponsorship is sensible. As suggested I've set up a survey monkey type poll to put to the bairns tomorrow (11 - 18 years), I'll keep you posted on the results.

[Roland Pulfrew]

What a load of bile this is, Courtney you must be particularly well balanced with the size of those chips you are carrying mate. A typical whinging pom. Haven't followed the independence thing for a while but now of the mind to say Scotland go for it - high time you dropped the baggage of these outdated little Englanders. Visited the UK lots over the past years and always found the celtic nations to be by far the more hospitable - England has no real sense of itself. So go for it Scotland let the whingers down south carry themselves.

My God what a load of bile this is, Always up, you must be particularly well balanced with the size of those chips you are carrying mate. Not a bad start on PPRuNe for an abo. So an uninformed Aussie, I'm guessing with some sort of Celtic heritage, thinks the Scots should "go for it", that the "England" has no sense of itself and is inhospitable; with an attitude like yours I'm not surprised. :rolleyes:

I'd go further to say that rest of the UK (North of England in particular) needs the change as well. The dominance of London and the south of England (concentration of wealth and influence) is stiffling.

In case you hadn't noticed, the NE voted, by a significant margin, AGAINST Two-Jags Prescott's plans for regional devolution.

[Old RN]

As Great Britain is a union, should there not be a vote south of the boarder to see if the English and Welsh want to stay connected to Scotland? The result could be an English vote to disolve the union and a Scottish vote not to!

[G-F0RC3]

As Great Britain is a union, should there not be a vote south of the boarder to see if the English and Welsh want to stay connected to Scotland? The result could be an English vote to disolve the union and a Scottish vote not to!

This would only happen if the people of England, Wales (and - ironically - Scotland) elect a Westminster government that wants to hold a referendum on it. So, essentially the Scots would be part of electing a government which wants to dissolve a Union with the Scots - which seems strange. But I think what you're getting at is; What if the people of England want to dissolve the Union themselves?. As a Scot, I think the English are well within their rights to do that if that's what they think is in their best interests.

But we have to be careful here. There has been a lot of mud slinging lately. We need to ensure that whatever decisions we come to are not as a consequence of lowering the debate to petty playground insults and historical grievances. A decision to dissolve the Union is a big one; and should be made (or not made) with a level-head. Contrary to popular belief, the Scots don't hate the English. We have been friends and neighbours for a very long time now, and I genuinely don't think that would change if Scotland became independent. I almost get the impression that the English think the Scots think they are better than the English, and so look to down the Scots as some sort of retaliation for this perceived arrogance; and even suggest that they might force Independence upon us by voting for it themselves (to teach us a lesson, if you will). But this is quite unhelpful to all concerned. Clearly Scotland can be independent, and probably quite successfully. The real argument is; should we become independent?

[Heathrow Harry]

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door. People don't think it will impact them at all TBH

I think that over the last 30-40 years the two countries have become quite different places - and relatively few English people go to Scotland these days

[sisemen]

Take no notice of Always Up. The expats living down on the flats of Perth are truly a weird lot - they're more Jockanese than the tartan mob themselves. He's probably behind the secession movement in West Australia as well.

[melmothtw]

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door. People don't think it will impact them at all TBH

You say that, but the evidence from this forum at least is that it's mainly those "south of the border" who seem to be working themselves up into a larther at the prospect of Scottish independence.

[OutlawPete]

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door.

HH, I genuinely hope this isn't the case and certainly haven't met anyone from south of the border who shares this attitude. Sure I've been on the receiving end of the banter but have always seen it as just that and to be fair, have given as good back.

So, is there an intrinsic belief that England would be better off without Scotland from south of the border?


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[langleybaston]

I for one am totally indifferent but I would in any case like an English Parliament.

[MFC_Fly]

OutlawPete, just ignore HH, he has the habit of posting negatively on almost everything on here. IMHO he is just a troll :ok:

[betty swallox]

Heathrow Harry...
What a kn*b!!!!
I'm a Scot, so I'll pass on your sentiments to my ENGLISH wife!!!

Really...did you finish school yet?!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

HH,

I'll pass that on to my English wife as well.

Duncs:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

To get back to what markings the SAF my have on any aircraft it may have may I suggest the following. This would reflect the SNP's mantra of "A just, fair and diverse society";)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/SAFroundal_zpsed135799.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/SAFroundal_zpsed135799.jpg.html)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Hummingfrog

Think the Greeks might have something to say about that (see page 2) unless the Greeks are selling their national symbols to pay off ze Tchermans. ;)

[Heathrow Harry]

Surely the label of a bottle of Buckfast would do.....................

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I think you'll find that Buckfast is English!

Duncs:ok:

[langleybaston]

HFrog, surely there should be, well, how can I put it,
a 'darkish' colour in the roundel.
I only see Scots and Homosexuals reflected in the suggestion.
And no reference to the disabled either.

Must try harder.

[onetrack]

If Scotland declares UDI and starts up the SAF - does this mean every Scottish pilot will be individually (bag)piped aboard his aircraft at the start of every sortie, to the sounds of "Scotland the Brave"?? :)

[sisemen]

Surely you mean "the" Scottish pilot?

[Hummingfrog]

langleybaston

Would this tick all the boxes?;)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/SAFroundaldiv_zpscad376af.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/SAFroundaldiv_zpscad376af.jpg.html)

[Courtney Mil]

Now it needs a ban the bomb sign and a haggis.

[langleybaston]

HFrog, thank you, it floats my boat [so what about the Scottish Navy then?]

[Hummingfrog]

Courtney

How about this - though it may be difficult to paint onto the aircraft;)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/SAFroundaldivcm_zps20374676.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/SAFroundaldivcm_zps20374676.jpg.html)

[Courtney Mil]

Yep, that looks better. It won't take too long, we're not talking a huge fleet after all.

[CoffmanStarter]

Steel Bowlers everyone ... incoming !!!

[TomJoad]

Didn't the Leuchars or Lossie aircraft (Jags at Lossie perhaps) have tartan flashes on the tails - I'm sure I saw that at some stage. BA certainly had it on their fleet at various times - looked quite good from what I recall.

[TomJoad]

Steel Bowlers everyone ... incoming !!!

Yep I would agree with you there fella , the EDL have mustered here alright - why do these little enggerlanders get themselves in such a frenzy? Are they really so insecure.;)

[TomJoad]

Fair enough. I'd be very surprised it you showed a roundel to anyone in the UK that they's not say "RAF". I'll be interested in your straw poll.

Ok Courtney as promised I polled the kids and here are the results. Now I know this is no way representative as to how a poll should be taken it was done as a bit of fun and out of curiosity so please keep that in mind.:ok:

poll group - 410 17 - 18 year old

only 18 (4 %) correctly identified roundel as RAF

22 (5%) though it was something to do with The Who (who would have thought MODs still live)

277 (66%) thought it was some kind of target

84 (20%) thought it was something from captain america whatever that is!!

the rest had no clue or didn't care

Of the 4% that associated it with the RAF almost all had an association either through Air Cadets or family.


So there you go , a national emblem , maybe not to the upcoming generation.
as Coffman said "Bowlers on"":p

[CoffmanStarter]

The King of the MOD's still lives ... Just down the road from me as it happens :cool:

http://britishinvasionradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/daltrey_sm.jpg

And just for completeness ... The Captain America thing is ...

http://megamoxie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/captainamerica.jpg

BTW TJ ... I'm an "enggerlander" mate :ok:

Coff.

[TomJoad]

Ah Captain America - roundel , I get where they are coming from now! Definetly not a national emblem:\



BTW TJ ... I'm an "enggerlander" mate :ok:

Coff.

I know, bless:D


http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-i-m-english-and-as-such-i-crave-disappointment-i-actively-seek-it-out-bill-bailey-208692.jpg

[OutlawPete]

Yep I would agree with you there fella , the EDL have mustered here alright - why do these little enggerlanders get themselves in such a frenzy? Are they really so insecure.

Tom it's nothing to do with insecurity. The English are simply closet trannys who are supremely jealous of the fact that us jocks can get away wearing what they consider to be a skirt in public.

That coupled to the fact that the kilt floats their women folks boats gives them an inferiority complex that manifests itself in the purile behaviour demonstrated by some. I add some cos a few of em can handle it!


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[TomJoad]

Tom it's nothing to do with insecurity. The English are simply closet trannys who are supremely jealous of the fact that us jocks can get away wearing what they consider to be a skirt in public.

That coupled to the fact that the kilt floats their women folks boats gives them an inferiority complex that manifests itself in the purile behaviour demonstrated by some. I add some cos a few of em can handle it!


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Now Outlaw, being an Englishman (not an enggerlander) I think I should resemble that remark. But I must admit, borne by the evidence here, I think you are right fella. :D:D:D:D

Besides my good lady, a very fine Scottish lass, is standing next to me as I type! I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt that said " No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" and consenting is a national sport in England.:p

[Hummingfrog]

Hi langleybaston

I think the Scottish Government will want to keep its "Fair, Just and Inclusive" theme going for the Scottish Navy so their flag would be similar to the SAF markings but include a reference to no nuclear submarines within its fleet.;)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/navyflag_zpsa910e7a2.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/navyflag_zpsa910e7a2.jpg.html)

[CoffmanStarter]

Oh dear TJ and OPete please ignore me ... I just love a good wind up ... be it dishing it out or being on receiving end :ok:

To be serious for one moment :rolleyes:

I and the vast majority of my close friends ... many being Scottish ... firmly believe that we are ALL collectively the better for a United Kingdom. If it happens ... it will be a very sad day if Scotland were to leave the Union :(

Best regards ... Ach aye the noo ...

Coff.

[NutLoose]

It will be a sad day if the Country splits, even though my parents family home was 100 yards north of the wall and my family are an old Borders one who were part of the Border Reivers. I would hate to see the Country Split.

index (http://www.theborderers.info/)

T'was another sad day in our history when we as a family were no longer allowed to roam over the border, raping, pillaging and murdering the Scots... Still, they do say it was a sign of progress........ Sigh :p


.

[TomJoad]

Come on Coffman don't wibble now, stiff upper and all that, what! Nothing wrong with being an engerlander, just how you are, it should be celebrated.

Get the morris dancing kit on and down a few speckleds
you,ll be alright in the morning. Stop asking for consent, celebrate it.;)

Bowler on standby for incoming as you say what what:p

[OutlawPete]

Coff.

We're on the same page mate.

I have too many 'sassenach' friends to ever think differently. But I reserve the the right to take the pi$$ (and to get wound up when I'm on the receiving end!).



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[TomJoad]

Look in all seriousness I do think Outlaw is spot on. There is an inherently deep insecurity in the English psyche we are just so unsure of who we are we automatically denigrate all others. It is our default setting. We will have do do some deep soul searching if Scotland elects to leave the union. Who knows may ultimately be a good thing maybe we will finally be able to leave a lot of the baggage behind.:)

[glad rag]

BBC News - Kelvin MacKenzie claims London supports rest of UK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22374449)


"One party not standing in Thursday's elections is the Southern Party, who could speak for the millions of people living in London and south east of England, claims a former newspaper editor."

[SASless]

So there you go , a national emblem , maybe not to the upcoming generation.

One must admit the RAF Round Thing is becoming exceedingly scarce anymore and thus doesn't get seen as often as it once was.

[Courtney Mil]

Tom Joad,

Wow, the result of your poll is quite staggering - to me anyway. I liked the "Something to do with the Who". Funny, I think it's a target for the Chancellor too.

[Hummingfrog]

TJ

There is an inherently deep insecurity in the English psyche we are just so unsure of who we are we automatically denigrate all others.

I think that statement is inaccurate. The second part could equally apply to the Scots. The one thing that my wife (teacher and Scottish) always says is that English children are always more confident than their Scottish bretheren.

There has always been friendly rivalry between the Scots, English, and to a lesser extent the Welsh. I have a foot in all 3 camps being English born, with a Welsh mother and a Scottish wife and having lived in Scotland for 25yrs. I consider myself British first and English joint second with the others.

It upsets me to see Salmond stirring up anti-UK feelings as I believe we are better as one UK and not splitting up.:{

Fortunately nearly everybody I know, including those who voted SNP, have indicated they will vote no so I believe the Union will survive but with more devolved power to Scotland.

HF

The question I want the Government to answer is why there is no English parliament?

[OutlawPete]

TJ

Quote:

There is an inherently deep insecurity in the English psyche we are just so unsure of who we are we automatically denigrate all others.

I think that statement is inaccurate. The second part could equally apply to the Scots. The one thing that my wife (teacher and Scottish) always says is that English children are always more confident than their Scottish bretheren.

There has always been friendly rivalry between the Scots, English, and to a lesser extent the Welsh. I have a foot in all 3 camps being English born, with a Welsh mother and a Scottish wife and having lived in Scotland for 25yrs. I consider myself British first and English joint second with the others.

It upsets me to see Salmond stirring up anti-UK feelings as I believe we are better as one UK and not splitting up.

Fortunately nearly everybody I know, including those who voted SNP, have indicated they will vote no so I believe the Union will survive but with more devolved power to Scotland.

HF

The question I want the Government to answer is why there is no English parliament?

Find myself in total agreement with you H-frog. Although Tom has a point about the insecurity issues which I believe are in the BRITISH psyche. We are constantly seeking approval, particularly from across the pond. As a nation we should be more forthright.

Interesting that many posters on here have familes with members from all parts of the UK. Although a Scot, my own family roots are in London and I too am unsettled by Salmonds anti UK rhetoric.


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[TomJoad]

Tom Joad,

Wow, the result of your poll is quite staggering - to me anyway. I liked the "Something to do with the Who". Funny, I think it's a target for the Chancellor too.

:D:D:D:D Made me chuckle, but how true.

[TomJoad]

TJ



I think that statement is inaccurate. The second part could equally apply to the Scots. The one thing that my wife (teacher and Scottish) always says is that English children are always more confident than their Scottish bretheren.

It upsets me to see Salmond stirring up anti-UK feelings as I believe we are better as one UK and not splitting up.:{

Fortunately nearly everybody I know, including those who voted SNP, have indicated they will vote no so I believe the Union will survive but with more devolved power to Scotland.

HF

The question I want the Government to answer is why there is no English parliament?

I don't. It is my honest experience both within the service and out that we are less accepting of other than the Scots. The Scots are far more at home in their skin, they have a ready friendliness which comes easy to them. Having lived all over the UK I have always found the Scots to be the more friendly, the more genuine , the more down to earth. Just my experience, nothing more folks:)

While I do not agree with Alex Salmond's position I do not get upset nor do I see that he is an instigator somehow driving the call for independence. Look this is part of a long democratic debate in Scotland, it has not just appeared overnight, although the English media never seam to get that (McKenzie et al). I am 100 % behind the Scots having this debate. I think it is only right and proper and its not something to be frightened off. This negative reaction to the debate is again indicative of what I am talking about in the English psyche. If Scotland were to vote for independence then while I would wholly regret and be concerned for what follows for the UK, I would be supportive for Scotland's future as an emerging independent state. I wonder how many like Mr McKenzie with his typical xenophobic outburst would be similarly supportive of our closest friend. When the vote next year is rejected, as I believe and hope it will, the debate on the future direction for devolution in both Scotland and England will be the more interesting.

[CoffmanStarter]

Mega Boss visits Scottish-based personnel ...

Chief of the Air Staff pays tribute to the Scottish-based airmen and women defending the UK.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafleuchars/rafcms/mediafiles/325F3B91_5056_A318_A88412075B71F25D.jpg

More here ...

CAS RAF Scotland Visit (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafleuchars/news/index.cfm?storyid=3271EABF-5056-A318-A8E8CDF984ECC81B)

Coff.

[tonker]

NUTloose 1 mile north of the wall is still firmly in England, and the "reivers" who many seen to glamorise romantically were nothing more than cross border thieves and rapists. Funny how that's seen as acceptable if its just one way in favour of the Celts!

I wonder why Mel Gibson never played that one....

Regards from one mile south if the wall.:ok:

[sisemen]

During the visit to RAF Leuchars Sir Stephen visited 6 Squadron who have been putting their state-of-the-art multi-role Typhoon jets through their paces in a ground attack role by carrying out training sorties off the Scottish coast

Pays to put in a bit of practice against possible future targets :}

[TomJoad]

Pays to put in a bit of practice against possible future targets :}

You haven't been reading sisemen, why would the Scots post independence want to target their closets and most important ally. :ugh:

Oh unless you are talking about the roundel again ;)

[Biggus]

When Leuchars finally closes and the aircraft have all moved north, will we have the ridiculous situation where the Stn Cdr at Lossiemouth post is changed to an Air Commodore slot on the basis that he is also Air Officer Scotland? (I notice it's no longer Air Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland...)

Do we have an Air Officer Wales? (Job for Stn Cdr at Valley?)

Or are we soon to be in a situation where we have so few flying bases left we decide to "up rank" all Stn Cdr posts at such places to Air Commodore rank? (It would make a good post in the "...you know you've become a Third World airforce when...." thread).

Of course , this will all be irrelevant if Scotland votes for independence! ;)

[Wensleydale]

Get the morris dancing kit on


I did hear a comment the other day, that the reason Morris Dancers wear bells is so that they can annoy the deaf as well.:}

[Whenurhappy]

Will those officers who insist on wearing kilts to Christmas Draws etc be charged with wearing a foreign uniform after Independence?:E

[ian16th]

Of course , this will all be irrelevant if Scotland votes for independence! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Biggus,

Depending on whether the newly independent Scotland stays in the Commonwealth or not, there will of course be a job for an Air Attache or Air Advisor, and some staff.

[OutlawPete]

Will those officers who insist on wearing kilts to Christmas Draws etc be charged with wearing a foreign uniform after Independence?

Tartan (so I am told) was invented in England so I'd guess it would still be ok to continue that theme at mess functions. Although they'd probably wear pants under it! Who knows, the English airforce may even adopt their own new tartan. It should be encouraged, your women love it!


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[NutLoose]

NUTloose 1 mile north of the wall is still firmly in England, and the "reivers" who many seen to glamorise romantically were nothing more than cross border thieves and rapists. Funny how that's seen as acceptable if its just one way in favour of the Celts!

I wonder why Mel Gibson never played that one....

Regards from one mile south if the wall.

Cool, it is odd no film has been made about the Reivers.. :ok:

But we may all be in trouble, the Scots invaded England back in 1754, so may well claim the country all the way down to Derby in a similar vein to Argentinas claim on the Falklands, now I have no problems with them having Derby, but that would again put me close to the Border again :O


..

[OutlawPete]

Quote:
now I have no problems with them having Derby, but that would again put me close to the Border again

Thats a great idea. If the borders going to be that far south then we get York again too. Maybe we can change that law that says it's still legal to hang a Scotsman in that city. Always wanted to visit but until they change that I'm going nowhere near the place!


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[Kluseau]

...the Scots invaded England back in 1754, so may well claim the country all the way down to Derby in a similar vein to Argentinas claim on the Falklands, now I have no problems with them having Derby, but that would again put me close to the Border again :O
..

The Jacobite uprising? In 1745? Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't really the Scots, though there were some among them. Basically some Italian bloke (arguably) wanting to take the crown of England (and those of Scotland and Ireland) for his old man, and starting his misadventure in Scotland as a stepping stone to the real prize.

Though if they had pressed towards a largely undefended London instead of turning back at Derby, George II would probably have fled, leaving Bonnie Prince Charlie's father as James VIII of Scotland and III of England.

Some say that if this had happened the English and French would have avoided a further 70 years of conflict; the English would not have had to raise taxes in the colonies to pay for the French wars; the Americans would not have had cause to fight a war for their independence; and the French revolution might not have happened. The world would be a very different place...

[ian16th]

Pete
Maybe we can change that law that says it's still legal to hang a Scotsman in that city.

Hadn't heard of that one. Though I believe it is quite legal to shoot Welshmen in the City of Hereford.

With the proviso that you do it with a bow & arrow and after curfew.:uhoh:

[sisemen]

Thats a great idea. If the borders going to be that far south then we get York again too

You've already got Doncaster (and some would say that you're welcome to it :})

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#2J38lrv)
Jeremy Clarkson may have to don a kilt on Top Gear from now on after it was revealed the Yorkshire town of Doncaster historically belongs to Scotland

Ancient documents have revealed the birthplace of Clarkson was signed over to Scotland in a treaty 900 years ago as part of the Treaty of Durham after King David successfully stormed large areas of northern England.
It remained in Scottish hands for 21 years until Henry II appeared to reclaim the town under English rule in 1157.

But experts have now found an official pact wasn't ever signed - meaning strictly speaking the South Yorkshire town still belongs to the Scots.

[langleybaston]

Aaaaaarghhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!

That means that when I was serving at Finningley and Bawtry I was living in Scotland?

Unbearable thought.

Tell me it isn't true, mother.

[sisemen]

I think that Bawtry and Finningley are well outside the medieval borough boundaries so you might just be safe.

However, having been born and brung up there it probably means that I am allowed to go out in public cross-dressing with a knife down me sock.

[langleybaston]

Unfortunately we LIVED in BESSACARR [ok, the posh bit, but nevertheless ........]

[sisemen]

Well....get the frock on laddie! And welcome to the club.

[TomJoad]

When Leuchars finally closes and the aircraft have all moved north, will we have the ridiculous situation where the Stn Cdr at Lossiemouth post is changed to an Air Commodore slot on the basis that he is also Air Officer Scotland? (I notice it's no longer Air Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland...)

Do we have an Air Officer Wales? (Job for Stn Cdr at Valley?)

Or are we soon to be in a situation where we have so few flying bases left we decide to "up rank" all Stn Cdr posts at such places to Air Commodore rank? (It would make a good post in the "...you know you've become a Third World airforce when...." thread).

Of course , this will all be irrelevant if Scotland votes for independence! ;)


Would have thought the title would simply cease to be used! :confused:

[langleybaston]

We do have a Flt Lt Wales, do we not?

[TomJoad]

You've already got Doncaster (and some would say that you're welcome to it :})

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines
J
eremy Clarkson may have to don a kilt on Top Gear from now on after it was revealed the Yorkshire town of Doncaster historically belongs to Scotland

Ancient documents have revealed the birthplace of Clarkson was signed over to Scotland (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#2J38lrv)


Sorry but you don't loose the boring old fart that easily - 1 st statute on Scottish Lawbooks post independence would be to legalise extraordinary rendition. We would send him back down south in the boot of Reliant Robin (if it even has a boot!).:p

[OutlawPete]

Pete

Quote:

Maybe we can change that law that says it's still legal to hang a Scotsman in that city.

Hadn't heard of that one. Though I believe it is quite legal to shoot Welshmen in the City of Hereford.

With the proviso that you do it with a bow & arrow and after curfew.

Ian, I'm just hoping nobody decides to test either of these laws!! Mind you both are pretty tame when you consider that the Scots used to strip captured English naked, tie them to the ground and let the midges feast on them!!


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[TomJoad]

Will those officers who insist on wearing kilts to Christmas Draws etc be charged with wearing a foreign uniform after Independence?:E

Such hospitable folk , so much for extending a warm a courteous welcome to friends;)

http://www.alexismalcolmkilts.com/mediac/400_0/media/USArmyKilttodd_stacysmaller.jpg

And wish you well charging our future King and commander in chief:ugh:http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv209/Bham_Greaser/Brants_Vols/Galloglass/Prince_Charles/HRH_prince-charles_black-watch.jpg

[TomJoad]

Aaaaaarghhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!

That means that when I was serving at Finningley and Bawtry I was living in Scotland?

Unbearable thought.

Tell me it isn't true, mother.

lankeybaston , you would have known if you had; living in Scotland is a bit like the Betty Ford Clinic – it’s rehab for the disgruntled spirit. You would have left a good bit lighter having lost those chips and you’d be fuller of the milk of human kindness. Don’t worry though, we’d let you back in, with a reference of course! ;)

[CoffmanStarter]

I hadn't really appreciated that there are a few specific RAF Tartans ...

http://www.heritageofscotland.com/pictures/20090317120802/opt49bf961650b71.jpg

RAF Modern

http://www.heritageofscotland.com/pictures/20090317110236/opt49bf8b458243b.jpg

RAF Lossiemouth Modern

http://www.heritageofscotland.com/pictures/20090317110236/opt49bf8b46a143c.jpg

RAF Leuchars Modern

Does RAF Kinloss have a Tarten ?

You learn something new every day :ok:

Coff.

[Hummingfrog]

CoffmanStarter

Does RAF Kinloss have a Tarten ?

I think that should be did RAF Kinloss have a Tarten - it is Kinloss Barracks now:{

HF

[CoffmanStarter]

HF ... Soz :(

[Biggus]

....although there are still some RAF there.....at least for now.....

As to the question, there used to be an RAF Kinloss tartan:

RAF Benson - News and Weather (http://www.raf.mod.uk/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=55B4C6AC-5056-A318-A8415AF735AD0814)

But it was very recent, 2009, so all the KOSs of maritime probably don't know about it! I also seem to remember that it wasn't exactly flying off the shelves. (the link seems to work - don't ask me why it's under "RAF Benson - news and weather"....another RAF media success :ugh:)

If it doesn't work, try:

Tartan Details - The Scottish Register of Tartans (http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails.aspx?ref=10120)

[sitigeltfel]

Will those officers who insist on wearing kilts to Christmas Draws etc be charged with wearing a foreign uniform after Independence?:E

What about Sikh servicemen then? ;)

[MFC_Fly]

What about Sikh servicemen then? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif
They can wear kilts too if they want :ok:

[TomJoad]

They can wear kilts too if they want :ok:

Hell anyone can wear them ,,, but not everybody can wear them well :rolleyes:

[TomJoad]

In the case of Scotland, I don't see where the country has adequate reserves of national wealth to prop up its independance.
Manufacturing? You have to compete with the Chinese today.
Coal? Hmmm, seems like coal is on the nose as far as fuel goes, and much Scottish coal is difficult and costly to mine.
Oil & Gas? Well .. unless there's a major discovery, no, I can't see that being a major, expanding future industry. The existing O&G industry in Scotland is pretty static.
That leaves tourism. Yes, Scotland is a nice place to visit - for 4 months of the year, unless you like plowing through snow drifts.

My mother left Scotland in 1928 because she saw no great future for herself there. Life was very hard in both Britain and Scotland in the 1920's, much more so than in Australia at that time.
I believe she certainly lived a better life overall, in Australia, and she never wanted to return to Scotland to live. I don't think a great deal has changed in the intervening 85 yrs.


Ahh the old conceit, why let truth in the way of a good story. For what it is worth Onetrack, Aberdeenshire is the only region in the UK outside of the city of London to be bucking the recession in the UK - in fact its contribution to UK GDP has been recognised by the national Government, albeit quietly,
as significant in preventing the UK returning to negative growth. Sorry to bust that one mate.


As for your mother - mine did the opposite. Has not look back since she moved to the sunny Kingdom of Fife, god bless her and her cockney socks.
Guess you see what you want to see.:cool:



BBC News - Scottish oil and gas supply chain exports grow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-22413758)

[onetrack]

TJ - So, when it comes down to basics, the UDI is really all about oil? Do the Americans come into the picture somewhere, with an oil grab, too? :suspect:

A country of 5M population running an annual budget deficit of £7B, doesn't look like a country that is in top financial shape, to me! The cost burden of financing that constant deficit must be huge.

When the administrative cost burden of running the place as an independent country, comes home to roost, and the oil runs out - or God forbid, an electric-vehicle power breakthrough is made - what then, will Scotland be relying on, for income?

Are there plans afoot to instigate a few more Loch monsters to improve tourism returns? :)

BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070)

Scotland public spending deficit ?better than UK? - Politics - Scotsman.com (http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scotland-public-spending-deficit-better-than-uk-1-2821963)

[Biggus]

First of all, I'm not advocating that Scotland should, or shouldn't, vote for independence. However, having said that.....

Let us look at just one specific point, the argument being made that an independent Scotland will be better off financially as a result of North Sea oil. When considering this the voters have to remember that independence will be a long term (100s of years, permanent, until a European super state emerges...?) deal, not for just 40-50 years. What are the long term economic prospects? Not that the average voter, who tends to have a short term view on most things, will care. But what would a vote for independence mean for the children and grandchildren of anyone who voted for it? Interesting concept?

It doesn't really seem to be discussed, although I believe the SNP were talking about setting up some sort of national "oil fund" for when the income fluctuates or tails off - not that I'm sure the income will be that substantial to allow any significant portion to be set aside.

[Kluseau]

Are there plans afoot to instigate a few more Loch monsters to improve tourism returns? :)


Apparently you're out of touch on this, too. It's been done:
BBC News - Monsters Inc: Scottish lochs and their creatures (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21603269)

[TomJoad]

TJ - So, when it comes down to basics, the UDI is really all about oil? Do the Americans come into the picture somewhere, with an oil grab, too? :suspect:

A country of 5M population running an annual budget deficit of £7B, doesn't look like a country that is in top financial shape, to me! The cost burden of financing that constant deficit must be huge.

When the administrative cost burden of running the place as an independent country, comes home to roost, and the oil runs out - or God forbid, an electric-vehicle power breakthrough is made - what then, will Scotland be relying on, for income?

Are there plans afoot to instigate a few more Loch monsters to improve tourism returns? :)

BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070)

Scotland public spending deficit ?better than UK? - Politics - Scotsman.com (http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scotland-public-spending-deficit-better-than-uk-1-2821963)

Well first of all One track it wont be a UDI, if the vote is Yes, it will be for permission for the Scottish government to reach a negotiated settlement. Ok that's got that out of the way.

Now you will remember it was you in your opening post that placed "oil" on that table as a point of import not me. Any debate to consider the prospects of an independent Scotland not including revenue projections from oil would be absurd; would you not agree. In fact no more absurd that the current UK governments approach in its own ongoingl consideration with respect to our balance of payments. So no I won't hold the independence campaign hostage to fortune over the issue of oil - it is right and proper that they consider it.

A country with population 5m running a large deficit. Your thesis being exactly what? Not many countries I know which do not run deficits, particularly at the moment. No the central tenant of the Nationalist arguments is an age old one, one which both Australia and the USA know well, pure and simple it is about sovereignty and placing governance closer to the people. The Nationalist will argue that through independence, full fiscal control and responsibility, will better allow Scotland to grow its economy in ways in which the present arrangements in UK do not.

As to your "american oil grab" and "loch ness monster" jibes sorry mate - your paddling in the wrong Billabong there . Take that type of debate up with Calvin McKenzie.:ok:

[langleybaston]

and I think it should be tartAn.

[Courtney Mil]

Agreed, LB. Tarten, if there were such a word, would be a verb, surely? It would probably mean to make into a tart as in "I put my duaghter on the game." :eek: Although to be completely correct, that might be "entarten".:ouch:

[Biggus]

Reference a "negotiated settlement".... what if the two sides don't agree?

Just a couple of examples:

Failure to agree on the amount of UK national debt to be taken on by an independent Scotland.

Failure of the rest of the UK to grant Scotland influence in the Bank of England (chair on the board I think).



For negotiations to work, there has to be some give and take, both parties need to come away with something positive. It seems to me that an Independent Scotland would be making a list of demands, retention of the pound, seat on the board of the Bank of England, minimal transfer of national debt, etc - why should the rest of the UK accede to any of these? What does the rest of the UK get in return. What does an Independent Scotland give, as opposed to take? It is Scotland that will have elected to go for independence, not the entire UK.

How long will these negotiations take?

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney you are http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/cook/chef-2.gif ... :ok:

[Kluseau]

I suppose, Biggus, that any such "negotiations" would be taking place in front of the "court of public opinion", both within the UK and beyond it, and there would be a lot to lose (though not, at that point, obviously the referendum itself) by the side seen to be being obstructive. After all, if the Czechs an the Slovaks could manage a parting of the ways, it should not be beyond the wit of the current parts of the UK.

This point may have evaded some in the "stay in the UK" team, who seem set on constructing a series of arguments for retaining the union that revolve around the core premise of "because we'll make it as hard as possible for everyone, and for Scots in particular, if you vote for independence". If these arguments are intended to win the hearts and minds of those who will have a vote next September, then I think there are some major miscalculations going on.

I don't know which way the vote will go next September, 500 days from today, apparently. While it would take something pretty seismic to shift the status quo, seisimic changes are not unkown in Scottish politics over the last decade. But I've long held the view that Cameron will be instrumental in winning far more "yes" votes (ie for independence) than Salmond ever could: and the way the so-called debate is going, the "no" camp show every sign of following his example and alienating as many voters into voting "yes" as they can.

Maybe this is not as inept as it seems: perhaps they all share my view that the only way the Conservatives could win a general election in 2015 is by making sure that the traditionally "anything but Conservative" voters of Scotland have no vote in that general election: which would presumably have to be the case had we voted to leave the UK the previous year (though not everyone agrees on even that).

[CoffmanStarter]

Looks like RAF Lossie Statish was acting as a 'Chieftan' at Forres today, presenting prizes :D

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJhHZNWCYAIe2yj.jpg

[TomJoad]

Reference a "negotiated settlement".... what if the two sides don't agree? - well I'd assume they would be grown up about it and negotiate again until they do agree - bit like the election of a pope i guess:ugh:

Just a couple of examples:

Failure to agree on the amount of UK national debt to be taken on by an independent Scotland. I am sure the rest of the remainder of UK would accept that they would have to take on their share of the UK's national debt.;)

Failure of the rest of the UK to grant Scotland influence in the Bank of England (chair on the board I think). The Bank of England remember is independent of government control - nor does it belong exclusively to any of the member states. Scotland does have a claim in the Bank of England (ironically founded by a Scotsman remember) and as such will have some form of entitlement or to use the legalese term it can call upon a settlement figure in its disposal should Scotland leave the UK. This applies to any of the current state assets - remember they are not the preserve of England or Northern Ireland as member states alone



For negotiations to work, there has to be some give and take, both parties need to come away with something positive. - Pushing against an open dooer there old boy It seems to me that an Independent Scotland would be making a list of demands, retention of the pound, seat on the board of the Bank of England, minimal transfer of national debt, etc - why should the rest of the UK accede to any of these? - Err because as with any divorce it will have a list of wants as well [/I] What does the rest of the UK get in return. --- I suspect the rest of the UK will be making similar demands on the disposal of former UK assets - of the top of my head - Scotland's oil revenues to be linked to any currency union to provide monetary stabalisation - as they currently do , and of course what could be the ace in Salmond's hand retention of nuclear basing, in Scoland. You seem to be of an opinion that Scotland's taxpayer have not contributed to the national wealth of the UK and therefore have no claim to disposal of those assets. How do you think any similar departure of the UK from the European Union would be handled! Do you honestly think that we would just walk away from teh European membership without asking for some of our money and assets back:p

What does an Independent Scotland give, as opposed to take? It is Scotland that will have elected to go for independence, not the entire UK. -- Correct not disputed, what gives and takes falls out of the negotiations - bit like any divorce proceeding:

How long will these negotiations take? - Probably 3 weeks 2 days time enough for the caber tossing season to start probably :rolleyes:

[OutlawPete]

Looks like RAF Lossie Statish was acting as a 'Chieftan' at Forres today, presenting prizes

IMAGE#1

It was a great day, I don't go in for the old cat strangling so much but you can't help but enjoy occasions like this. Glad the weather held out and some of the cars on display today were fabulous.


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[Biggus]

I am not, nor have I ever said so, of the opinion that Scottish taxpayers have not contributed to UK national wealth! :=

While I don't dispute Scotland's right to a "settlement" from the Bank of England should it become independent, I don't see how this translates into an automatic right to a seat on the board, or entry into a currency sharing agreement which the other side might not want or see any benefit from.

As for Scotland's oil reserves stabilizing the UK currency, over the last 40 years the UK treasury has benefited from offshore oil and gas to the tune of about £300bn:

BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070)

£300bn over 40 years is about £7bn a year, for a country with an annual government expenditure of about £700bn:

UK government expenditure 2014 - Pie Charts Tables (http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/government_expenditure.html)

Whilst markets may be fickle, and work on sentiment as much as fact, I'm not sure how an input of about 1% of government expenditure can have a significantly stabilizing effect on a currency or economy?

As an aside, I should state here and now that I do not advocate that the rest of the UK make it "as difficult" as possible for Scotland to break away and be independent. But at the same time, why should they lose out to fulfill Scotland's wishes when they had no input to the decision?

My previous comment on this thread was rather directed at the fact that the SNP appear, at least in public, to simply think that, if the referendum goes their way, they can walk away getting everything they want/expect from the remainder of the UK. That all their "demands" will be met - which incidentally includes a stated intent to have all nuclear weapons removed from Scottish soil. I believe the reality could be somewhat different.

One also has to wonder what the public and press reaction, and politicians chase public opinion because they think it will result in votes, within the rest of the UK will be to a Scottish yes vote. No-one likes to be rejected...

The people of Scotland have to make their own minds up, and the reaction of the rest of the UK shouldn't be a contributory factor. I just happen to believe that some of the comments coming from the SNP about the aftermath of a "yes" vote are somewhat shy of the likely reality.

[TomJoad]

It was a great day, I don't go in for the old cat stangling so much but you can't help but enjoy occasions like this. Glad the weather held out and some of the cars on display today were fabulous.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

Always good events and the Forres gathering is particularly friendly. If you don't like cat swinging Outlaw then best you stay away from the World Pipe Band Championships in Glasgow (RAF is usually represented). I'll be there this summer - love the stuff.;)

World Pipe Band Championship 2013 (http://www.theworlds.co.uk/Pages/home.aspx)

[OutlawPete]

Always good events and the Forres gathering is particularly friendly. If you don't like cat swinging Outlaw then best you stay away from the World Pipe Band Championships in Glasgow (RAF is usually represented). I'll be there this summer - love the stuff.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


Been to a few of them Tom and you're right they're a great day out. I just couldn't listen to the pipes for too long though...

I like the way Forres combine it with a community day with a car show and stalls etc. Shortbread tin Scotland is alive and well!

[TomJoad]

I am not, nor have I ever said so, of the opinion that Scottish taxpayers have not contributed to UK national wealth! :=

Nor would I advocate that the rest of the UK make it "as difficult" as possible for Scotland to break away and be independent.

My comment was rather directed at the fact that the SNP appear, at least in public, to simply think that, if the referendum goes their way, they can walk away getting everything they want/expect from the remainder of the UK. Which incidentally includes a stated intent to have all nuclear weapons removed from Scottish soil. I believe the reality could be somewhat different.

One also has to wonder what the public reaction, and politicians chase public opinion, within the rest of the UK will be to a Scottish yes vote. No-one likes to be rejected...

The people of Scotland have to make their own minds up, and the reaction of the rest of the UK shouldn't be a contributory factor. I just happen believe that some of the comments coming from the SNP about the aftermath of a "yes" vote are somewhat shy of the likely reality.


Really - I think in all respect you are seeing what you want to see. I don't think for one moment that the SNP, nor Salmond in particular, is as amateur as you suggest. As for the nuclear option - do not be so naive as to think this will not become a strong bargaining chip. Salmond may have stated that his intention is to see nuclear weapons out of Scotland. How bad does he want that vice all other aspects of the settlement requirements! Think about it, why is the UK government so dogmatically against Scotland's departure from the Union. It did not take this position over Ireland. I must admit, in all of this debate, I have never had that question answered satisfactorily without vague notions of "we are better together".

Come on "call me Dave" convince me - I am a vote tart or is that "entarten" - not convinced Courtney;)

[friendlypelican 2]

Nice photo in Forres. Also nice to see ex MAEOp Barry Ashby hobnobbing with the Staish. Barry is a very fine piper (and English as well) who I believe will now do his bit to upgrade the Lossiemouth Pipe Band.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, all everyone's politics apart, I would give up my day job and easy life to go back to Leuchars to fly pretty much anything the Air Force wouuld tell me to... Two fantasic tours there. Oh, and my father's tours at Kinloss and Turnhouse when I were a nipper. Happy days.

[TomJoad]

Well, all everyone's politics apart, I would give up my day job and easy life to go back to Leuchars to fly pretty much anything the Air Force wouuld tell me to... Two fantasic tours there. Oh, and my father's tours at Kinloss and Turnhouse when I were a nipper. Happy days.

Yep it was the tours at Kinloss and Lossie that did it for me, fell in love with the country and the people. Truly wonderful time in my life and a part of the RAF that is sadly no more. I'm raising a glass to it tonight just because I can:p

[Tinribs]

Some years ago one of our Kings, Edward I think, borrowed Berwick from the Scots in retaliation for their continual raids accross the border, he didn't give it back. This results in Berwickshire, a Scottish county, having its county town at Duns not Berwick.

During a little local upset, the Crimea, England Scotland and Berwick declared war on Russia but later only England and Scotland made peace. Perhaps Berwick is still at war with Russia.

The Berwickers recently voted to rejoin Scotland so perhaps when Scotland goes independent the Jocks will ask nicely for it back.

Having been to Berwick a few times if the Scots want it we should agree.

[Heathrow Harry]

naa- Berwick is no longer at war with Russia - IIRC somewhere back in the 60's the Russian Ambassador made a trip there and signed (or passed over) some document stating that "for you the War is over" - it was an oversight but it only took 115 years to correct

not bad going for the foreign services of both countries :)

[cornish-stormrider]

apologies if I missed in the haggis and skirts pages......zzz
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....

he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....

Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....

Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...?

[Courtney Mil]

Even if we could find somewhere else to 'keep' them, it would take years to build and then the site at Coulport would take many, many years to clean up before handover.

[cokecan]

Devonport has some Vanguard class infrastructure, and in extremis i'm reasonably sure the US would allow the boats access to Kings Bay in order to keep the programme safe - though whether that would go so far as to have the boats permanently based there and operating from there is perhaps another issue.

Devonport looks like the option to me - the (few) noises i've heard tell me that in the event of a 'yes' vote, both London and Edinburgh want a deal that see's the boats move south in an orderly way and that the SNP accept that there's going to be a time lag while the facilities are being built down south.

what i've heard (political talk) is that London does not want a long-term deal to keep the boats in Scotland (a 21st century version of the Treaty ports in Ireland) as it thinks that such a plan is too much at the whim of whichever government happens to be in power in Edinburgh and needs a quick political win by putting a spanner in the 'English nukes' wheel.

[Kluseau]

Perhaps Berwick is still at war with Russia.

Not quite. This is from Berwick-upon-Tweed Feature Page on Undiscovered Scotland (http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/berwick/berwickupontweed/index.html)



Even Edward IV's final capture of the town in 1482 didn't entirely simplify matters. Under the Treaty of Perpetual Peace between Henry VII of England and James IV of Scotland in 1502 (just 11 years before the Scottish army and nobility was destroyed by the English at the Battle of Flodden) Berwick was given a special status as being "of" the Kingdom of England but not "in" it. As a result the town thereafter needed special mention in royal proclamations.

This had one odd effect. When Queen Victoria signed the declaration of war on Russia in 1853, she did so in the name of "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea." But Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris that concluded the Crimean War in 1856, leaving the town technically still at war with Russia.

A peace treaty was only finally signed by a Russian diplomat and the the Mayor of Berwick in 1966. As the mayor said at the time: "You can tell the Russian people that they can now sleep peacefully in their beds".

[Heathrow Harry]

there have been a lot more Vanguard visits to Devonport over the last couple of years

We don't need to recreate all the facillities in bonnie Scotland either - stick most of the spares on boats alongside like the old submarine tenders - and keep the spare warheads at Burghfield - they can run them down the motorway to Devonport in about 6 - 10 hours if a spare is needed

[Always Up]

apologies if I missed in the haggis and skirts pages......zzz
so - weee ick has his vote and by some miracle they go yes....

he stamps his feet over the Vanguards and insists they get moved orf his land - the drunken yes voters agree....

Where do we park the big buckets of sunshine?
it's a big ask to move all of coulport elsewhere - Faslane is a bit of a big ask on it's own but where COULD we put it if we had to - and as far as I can make out the most likely place is the sunny city of jannerville....

Plymouth - or should we turn Gib into the new coulport - it's big enough...? You lost the empire a wee while back Cornish the world is no longer your playground.:ok:


What planet do you live on - The UK basing nuclear weapons in Gib. :ugh:

[denachtenmai]

Always Up
I think Cornish's joke went right over your head:hmm:

[Always Up]

Always Up
I think Cornish's joke went right over your head:hmm:


Awh, must have been lost in translation not up to speed on Cornwalian. Thought the evil empire was rising again lol :D

[OutlawPete]

Scottish independence: UK underplayed value of oil - Top stories - Scotsman.com (http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-uk-underplayed-value-of-oil-1-2937003)

[Courtney Mil]

Alex Salmond brought that up in his interview on BBC Radio 4 this morning. James Naughtie batted it off rather well by stating, rather sarcastically and pointedly that it would never do for a politician to do anything like that before an election.

I had been hoping for some reasoned, structured economic plan from him this morning, but it was really just a bleat about how nasty Westminster has been to Scotland, how rich their oil is going to make them and how they're going to save up their pennies for when the oil runs out.

I doubt he won many "Yes" votes this morning.

Audioboo / Salmond: ?All to play for? in Scottish independence referendum (http://audioboo.fm/boos/1405155-salmond-all-to-play-for-in-scottish-independence-referendum)

[Heathrow Harry]

he's going to look bloody silly if the oil price collapses to say $20 a barrel before the referendum..................

[Biggus]

I refer you, once again, to this (and post 179):

BBC News - Who has a right to claim North Sea oil? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070)

If anyone actual bothers to read it this time, you will see that government tax revenues from North Sea Oil currently equate to approximately 1% OF UK GDP.

While there might be tremendous wealth in terms of oil under the North Sea, it is extracted at a finite rate - and the governments cut are what they get in tax revenues.

How any UK political party can be "worried stiff" about losing 1% of their income stream has got me somewhat confused.

Oil wealth, in terms of tax revenues, might represent 10% of an independent Scotlands income, but its only about 1% for a unified UK.

[Courtney Mil]

Heathrow Harry, he's not going to look too sharp when the tap starts to run dry AFTER the referendum and it's all too late to come home.

Biggus, yes, it was the oil revenue's worth to Scotland that Mr S was on about this morning.

[Biggus]

..he'll be dead, or at least past caring, by then!

[Hummingfrog]

Norway is Salmond's latest country to compare an Independent Scotland with. After using Iceland - whoops then Eire whoops again.

If I was a member of the new SAF and we were taxed as the Norwegians are I would be very worried about how much a round at happy hour would cost me.:eek:

HF

[Wensleydale]

I did read that in a recent poll carried out by the Daily Record, when asked which currency Scotland should adopt in case of independence, 41% of Scots wanted to keep the Giro.

[TomJoad]

Scottish independence: UK underplayed value of oil - Top stories - Scotsman.com (http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-uk-underplayed-value-of-oil-1-2937003)


Now why would they have done that?:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

We don't need to recreate all the facillities in bonnie Scotland either - stick most of the spares on boats alongside like the old submarine tenders - and keep the spare warheads at Burghfield - they can run them down the motorway to Devonport in about 6 - 10 hours if a spare is needed

One of the old carriers, like the Ark for instance, would be ideal. Plenty of accommodation, huge workshop area, cranes, lifts etc. Perfect.

[Pontius Navigator]

Think about it, why is the UK government so dogmatically against Scotland's departure from the Union. It did not take this position over Ireland.

Tell me you are joking, please tell me that was tongue in cheek.

[TomJoad]

Tell me you are joking, please tell me that was tongue in cheek.


Well tell you what how about you answer my question first:ugh: Why have successive governments been so against Scotland leaving the union? So much so that they have hidden or “down played” economical data as per Outlaw’s post or have set arbitrary constraints on referendum threshold aka the 1979 vote. As already said I have yet to hear a convincing reply from the unionist politicians to this -

1. How does the rest of the union benefit from Scotland’s membership?

2. What will the union loose if Scotland leaves?

My vote is waiting , come on convince me.:confused:

[Courtney Mil]

You vote the way you feel is right, Tom. No one here would start to imagine that you're not smart enough to need the guidence or persuation of anyone here to influence your vote. Nor to imagine that you would listen anyway.

1. Like any union, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I really do think it's that simple.

2. The above. Same for Scotland, I would imagine.

[rab-k]

Never mind why the UK Govt. doesn't want Scotland to go, aside from losing a home for its WMDs currently parked some 20 miles from a city of 3/4 of a million souls, losing 95% of the oil, and not to mention losing face on the world stage and having to explain why 10% of Great Britain concluded that it wasn't really so Great after all.

What gets me are those on this and other threads here who rip the sh1te out of Scotland/the Scots with the usual too small, too poor, too stupid routine, (resorting to the "its only banter" defence when certain lines are deliberately crossed - I saw "porridge WOG" on here the other day, WTF is that if not offensive in the extreme?). For those very same individuals two posts later are giving it the we're all 'better together' routine. Again, WTF?

The question I want answered is why those with such a low opinion in general of the Scots aren't begging for them to leave, or does it come back to my opening sentence?

[Courtney Mil]

Well, I don't think you can point your well voiced complaints at me, but I do recognise a man on the angry bus when I see one.

[TomJoad]

Never mind why the UK Govt. doesn't want Scotland to go, aside from losing a home for its WMDs currently parked some 20 miles from a city of 3/4 of a million souls, losing 95% of the oil, and not to mention losing face on the world stage and having to explain why 10% of Great Britain concluded that it wasn't really so Great after all.

What gets me are those on this and other threads here who rip the sh1te out of Scotland/the Scots with the usual too small, too poor, too stupid routine, (resorting to the "its only banter" defence when certain lines are deliberately crossed - I saw "porridge WOG" on here the other day, WTF is that if not offensive in the extreme?). For those very same individuals two posts later are giving it the we're all 'better together' routine. Again, WTF?

The question I want answered is why those with such a low opinion in general of the Scots aren't begging for them to leave, or does it come back to my opening sentence?

Rab this post crops up from time to time on Prune. It has different subject titles and often starts off fairly innoxiously. Very quickly however it attracts the usual suspects; you can spot them fairly easily. The general wind up merchant (oh look here is a haggis flag), and then the completely ill informed (normally Daily Express reader never been further North than Cornwall) who have just tuned into the independence debate and think it's an anti England thing. You need to look beyond these types. For my part as a wavering voter I genuinely want my questions answered but do expect them to be answered on PPrune. And yes, the claim of bantar is the last refuge of both types - it is a crutch we from southern Britain use too readily, so on their behalf I appologise.:ok:

[rab-k]

No, not angry, 'tilting at windmills' is a pastime I'll leave others to enjoy, just curious, that's all.

[TomJoad]

You vote the way you feel is right, Tom. No one here would start to imagine that you're not smart enough to need the guidence or persuation of anyone here to influence your vote. Nor to imagine that you would listen anyway.

1. Like any union, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I really do think it's that simple.

2. The above. Same for Scotland, I would imagine.


It's the politicians opinion that I seek Courtney. And you are right my vote will not be influenced here.

But to indulge. Your comment on "greater than the sum of its parts" - this is exactly the wooly fluff used by “call me Dave”. I need something more meaningful than that. Wonder if he will apply same logic to the forthcoming vote on the EU?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Tom,

Are you sure you are asking the right questions?

I would have thought that more appropriate ones might be:

1. What, if anything, does Scotland gain by being part of the union?

2. What, if anything, would Scotland gain from independence?

Duncs:ok:

[TomJoad]

:ok:Tom,

Are you sure you are asking the right questions?

I would have thought that more appropriate ones might be:

1. What, if anything, does Scotland gain by being part of the union?

2. What, if anything, would Scotland gain from independence?

Duncs:ok:


Nope I'm pretty happy with my questions. I really want the UK government to articulate their case. I want the honest facts not fluff.

Tom:ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Fair point!

Personally, I want the SNP to articulate theirs.

Horses for courses, I suppose.

Duncs:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Well tell you what how about you answer my question first:ugh: Why have successive governments been so against Scotland leaving the union? So much so that they have hidden or “down played” economical data as per Outlaw’s post or have set arbitrary constraints on referendum threshold aka the 1979 vote. As already said I have yet to hear a convincing reply from the unionist politicians to this - My vote is waiting , come on convince me.:confused:

I am disinterested in your question; I was sincerely hoping that you didn't think that we had not tried to keep Eire under UK Rule. We used force of army to put down Irish dissent. As far as I know the process for Scotland, whilst undoubtedly emotive, will be a democratic one of free choice.

[TomJoad]

I am disinterested in your question; I was sincerely hoping that you didn't think that we had not tried to keep Eire under UK Rule. We used force of army to put down Irish dissent. As far as I know the process for Scotland, whilst undoubtedly emotive, will be a democratic one of free choice.

Hells teeth - I was referring to the process of "settlement" which had led to the secession and establishment of Eire - it had been the subject of discussion in the preceding posts! But hey as you say disinterested.:ugh:

[OutlawPete]

Courtney Mil wrote:

"I doubt he won many "Yes" votes this morning."

Don't underestimate Alex Salmond. He doesn't even appear to be trying to win votes. Whenever he's on the news up here its usually a story about creating industrial growth and attracting foreign investment to Scotland which indeed seems to be happening as it happens.

Conversely, whenever we see Dave and the "con dems" on tv its almost always the usual $hite about political bickering between members of the same party or "coalition". Salmonds playing the long game. When Westminster looks as bad as it does now he wont have to try to hard to win votes if they continue with the shambles that we are becoming used to seeing. And that's before we even discuss Farage. ...:ugh:

[TomJoad]

Courtney Mil wrote:

"I doubt he won many "Yes" votes this morning."

Don't underestimate Alex Salmond. He doesn't even appear to be trying to win votes. Whenever he's on the news up here its usually a story about creating industrial growth and attracting foreign investment to Scotland which indeed seems to be happening as it happens.

Conversely, whenever we see Dave and the "con dems" on tv its almost always the usual $hite about political bickering between members of the same party or "coalition". Salmonds playing the long game. When Westminster looks as bad as it does now he wont have to try to hard to win votes if they continue with the shambles that we are becoming used to seeing. And that's before we even discuss Farage. ...:ugh:


Tend to agree. The episode with Farage just served to highlight the total ignorance that many on the Westminster circuit have when it comes to Scottish politics (also reflective of this forum). There is a complete lack of understanding with respect to developments since devolution. Like I said earlier, there are more Giant Pandas in Scotland than conservative MPs (or UKIP for that matter). And I suspect the Giant Pandas would pull more votes than Farage or "call me Dave.". If the independence vote is Yes, it won't be so much because Salmond won it rather the UK government lost it. Dave needs to get off his arse, get out of London, drop the fluff and start taking the debate seriously. Of course maybe he is also disinterested:hmm:

[Finningley Boy]

never been further North than Cornwall)

You mean the French!

FB

[Roland Pulfrew]

As already said I have yet to hear a convincing reply from the unionist politicians to this -

1. How does the rest of the union benefit from Scotland’s membership?

2. What will the union loose if Scotland leaves?

My vote is waiting , come on convince me

Asking the questions on here isn't going to get you an answer :hmm:

Personally I think you are already convinced; its your vote and nothing to do with anyone else on here.

[TomJoad]

Asking the questions on here isn't going to get you an answer :hmm:

Personally I think you are already convinced; its your vote and nothing to do with anyone else on here.

Oh dear you dropped your teddy, never mind. As for my decision being made far from it. As Rab K said funny how the tone changes.

I doubt anyone actually expects to find answers to this type of question here, just possibly air their view. You should not be frightend by that it is after all a defining characteritic of Britishness Roland.;)

[Fareastdriver]

Ideally Scotland should get its independence and join the EU; this to be followed by the rest of the UK leaving the EU.
Then the A1 and the M74 would be clogged with human rights lawyers and their clients.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I might have missed something; where is the M78?

Duncs:ok:

[Biggus]

The constellation of Orion?

Messier 78 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_78)

..or Michigan.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-78_(Michigan_highway)

[TomJoad]

M74, maybe?


:D:D:D:ok:

It is outside the M25, we shouldn't expect a working knowledge of the the whole of the UK. You could not have made that up:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

M74, maybe?

[BEagle]

If I was a member of the new SAF and we were taxed as the Norwegians are I would be very worried about how much a round at happy hour would cost me.:eek:

Unless you're successful in taking a spanner to his sporran to liberate a few bawbees, it'd probably cost the average porr....joc....err, Scot the same as normal. One pint....:\

By the way, an apology. Awfully sorry about William Wallace - no-one deserved to be played by an actor with such an appalling accent.

Ah yes, the M74 - the 5 mile extension to which cost £652M, or about £2000 per inch. A stunning example of Scots budgetary control, almost as good as their parliamentary building, which opened 3 years late and cost £414M, at least 10 times the original estimate...:rolleyes:

[OutlawPete]

"Ah yes, the M74 - the 5 mile extension to which cost £652M, or about £2000 per inch."

And worth every penny! Well the North bound carriageway is at least.

[Biggus]

TomJoad,

You seem very quick to take offence?

No doubt they can answer for themselves, if they can be bothered, however....

I seem to remember that Fareastdriver flys helo in "the far east", hence the name! One also doesn't know where he was born/raised/lived/based in the UK. So quite why someone not living in the UK, who may not have visited Scotland, should be chastised for getting one of the routes into Scotland wrong I don't know? I know many people in Scotland who haven't visited Cornwall and couldn't get the number of the main A road there right, is that in some way an insult to the English?

Tone is difficult to read accurately into a written text, but I don't see how Roland's earlier comment can in any way be described as having "dropped his teddy".

As I said, tone is difficult to read, and I have no axe to grind with you. However, on the basis of what you have written I would tend to (dispassionately) agree with Roland - that you have already made your mind up.

Make the most of your vote in 500 minus a few days!

[Courtney Mil]

TomJoad,

How did you manage to respond to my post before I'd posted it? Impressed:D

[Roland Pulfrew]

Oh dear you dropped your teddy, never mind. As for my decision being made far from it. As Rab K said funny how the tone changes.

I doubt anyone actually expects to find answers to this type of question here, just possibly air their view. You should not be frightend by that it is after all a defining characteritic of Britishness Roland

No teddies dropped at all, so you can get over yourself old son. It's your decision how you vote and nothing to do with me. I just don't see the point of asking for politicians to try persuade you on an aviation forum. Quite happy that I understand "Britishness" thanks; I for one have always decsribed myself as British. Strangely though, in my experience, most of those I have met from north (or west) of the border describe themselves as Scottish (or Welsh) first. Its only been in recent years that thos south and east of the border have really started to call themselves "English" over British and I think that has been caused by the disparity created by devolution.

Biggus - Thanks.:ok:

[sisemen]

Just lurv the way that the nationalist Jocks get all antsy. Shame really when all the polls seem to point that they are in the minority on independence.

A true Jock instinctively knows where they are financially better off. :}

Perhaps it's watching too many re-runs of "Brave Fart".

[rab-k]

Shame really when all the polls seem to point that they are in the minority on independence.Depends on what question (http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7405-westminster-eu-stance-strengthening-yes-support-as-new-poll-shows-no-vote-slipping) is being asked...

Strange that 'Brit-Nat' in an EU context = Good, whereas 'Scot-Nat' in a UK context = Bad. Such an anti-EU / anti-Kingdom of Scotland stance confuses me somewhat, given the arguments for the repatriation of powers from Brussels to London are not too far removed from those arguments with respect to powers being repatriated from London to Edinburgh.

[cornish-stormrider]

At least they buggers get a vote!
Oh, and kindly do not refer to the potholed farm tracks down ere as "Roads"
It takes I two hours to travel less than 80 miles on open "A" roads.

Can we have some motorways, any would do!

[Courtney Mil]

It's an interesting discussion, but people's politics will always lead to emontional spikes. I have to say that Roland's remark

don't see the point of asking for politicians to try persuade you on an aviation forum

is totally valid. But as TomJoad said to me some time ago, (words to the effect that) the yes vote isn't going to happen. I was shot down (metaphorically) for suggesting that "Yes" was starting to seem more likely with every passing month, so I'm interested by the sudden open-mindedness.

I maintain, we're better off together. Well, you are, I won't be here.

[TomJoad]

Unless you're successful in taking a spanner to his sporran to liberate a few bawbees, it'd probably cost the average porr....joc....err, Scot the same as normal. One pint....:\

By the way, an apology. Awfully sorry about William Wallace - no-one deserved to be played by an actor with such an appalling accent.

Ah yes, the M74 - the 5 mile extension to which cost £652M, or about £2000 per inch. A stunning example of Scots budgetary control, almost as good as their parliamentary building, which opened 3 years late and cost £414M, at least 10 times the original estimate...:rolleyes:

My you really got a lot of your chest there Beagle any more, how about a few photshoped haggis or haggi never could remember my Latin.

As for seeking answers here forgive me for having the temerity to take a counter view. I am continually embarrassed by the uninformed comments from the little Engerlander brigade - you guys are really becoming a parody. These are the same people who Rab described who as soon as a counter view is made claim "its my ball and we are not playing" dressing it up as bantar. Sorry but that really does sound like a teddy being thrown to me. I take heart when I look at PPrune membership together with average Military Aircrew viewing figures. On this post and others of its like we see the same 5 or so making their rabid anti Scottish comments dressed up as "banter". They represent a smaller % of the membership than the UK tax revenue from oil. Your views gentlemen will certainly have no influence whatsoever over the National debate or the outcome. So pray continue, knock yourself out. You have a very poor opinion of the country we call the UK and its member states.:) As an Englishman living in the heart of Scotland I despair when I see such nonsense you do a great disservice to England, the Union and England's relationship within it.


Oh and you are right the roads in Cornwall are crap but Cornwall aint a member state of the UK so what do you expect get onto the local council and complain:ok:

[OutlawPete]

[quote]Strange that 'Brit-Nat' in an EU context = Good, whereas 'Scot-Nat' in a UK context = Bad.

Rab that thought had occurred to me too. Last year we were being told an independent Scotland would not be able to join the EU. This year we're being told we have to and we must take on the Euro too. Complete cr@p of course.

I think maybe some of the suggestions on previous threads that England should have a vote to keep Scotland in the union are valid too. Whether we like it or not independence for Scotland would have a marked effect on both economies and a huge impact on the image England has in the eyes of other countries.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs perpetuated in the past (which in my opinion apply in equal measures to both north and south of the border) I agree with Courtneys earlier post where the sum of the collective is far greater than their component parts.

Besides, I quite like the English and if Scotland got independence then good manners and the fact that we'd have to be polite neighbours, would suggest that we'd have to stop taking the pi $$ out of them! And that would be boring.

[TomJoad]

TomJoad,

You seem very quick to take offence? Yup I'm a Bear who swallowed a wasp me:rolleyes:

No doubt they can answer for themselves, if they can be bothered, however....

I seem to remember that Fareastdriver flys helo in "the far east", hence the name! One also doesn't know where he was born/raised/lived/based in the UK. So quite why someone not living in the UK, who may not have visited Scotland, should be chastised for getting one of the routes into Scotland wrong I don't know? Quite - why he should feel compelled to make a comment in the first place, wonder what his intent was. Your ball over :ugh:


I know many people in Scotland who haven't visited Cornwall and couldn't get the number of the main A road there right, is that in some way an insult to the English? No

Tone is difficult to read accurately into a written text, but I don't see how Roland's earlier comment can in any way be described as having "dropped his teddy".

As I said, tone is difficult to read, and I have no axe to grind with you. However, on the basis of what you have written I would tend to (dispassionately) agree with Roland - that you have already made your mind up. And as before you are wrong

Make the most of your vote in 500 minus a few days! Cheers fella:ooh:

[rab-k]

the sum of the collective is far greater than their component parts.Same could be said of the EU, could it not?

I think maybe some of the suggestions on previous threads that England should have a vote to keep Scotland in the union are valid too. Whether we like it or not independence for Scotland would have a marked effect on both economies and a huge impact on the image England has in the eyes of other countries.Replace "England" with "the EU" and "Scotland" with "the UK". Do all EU citizens get a vote in Camerloon's In/Out referendum in 2017? The EU, like the UK, is just a social, political, economic and (in some cases) monetary union, is it not?

we'd have to stop taking the pi $$ out of themThe Irish (most of them) have been separate for almost a century, and I believe they're still subject to a few pi $$ takes every now and then.

[Courtney Mil]

I agree. The same could well be said for the EU, Rab-K :ok:

Tomjoad, I 'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I think (in that it is my opinion) that you should understand BEagle in the context of this avaiation forum before jumping at the post you quoted. I suspect the same for Biggus. Of course, I may be wrong, but knowing the people in this crewroom, I think you may be swinging punches at a false radar return.

[TomJoad]

I agree. The same could well be said for the EU, Rab-K :ok:

Tomjoad, I 'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I think (in that it is my opinion) that you should understand BEagle in the context of this avaiation forum before jumping at the post you quoted. I suspect the same for Biggus. Of course, I may be wrong, but knowing the people in this crewroom, I think you may be swinging punches at a false radar return.

Err I think you are over thinking this mate, sorry! As someone else said hard to judge tone in written medium, so only going by what has been written. Take a look through this entire thread/post (whatever) and tally the references to derogatory national stereotypes. Think you will find it is one way - only defending my view mate.

[Roland Pulfrew]

references to derogatory national stereotypes

Uninformed comments from little englanders

Oh the irony :D :D

[cornish-stormrider]

Who the @@@@ are you calling English?
I can trace my ancestry back further than I can count - and bear in mind I'm not from Redruth.

There ain't much "little englander" in there, but I will admit to holding a red passport, following the chariot, paying taxes and living in mr Cameron's paradise!

But I drinks Guinness or Glenfiddich, or both but not in the same glass.
Have at me with "banter" or trolling or racism or thick inbred Cornish eejit.
It's the internety, and you can say what you like. I've had far worse from far better,

FWIW most folks north of the border disliked me before I even opened my mouth, either they were the best judges of character or hated the cursed English on principal - still I had the last laugh........ But I won't say why, there is no statute of limitations on my crimes!!!

[TomJoad]

Who the @@@@ are you calling English?
I can trace my ancestry back further than I can count - and bear in mind I'm not from Redruth.

There ain't much "little englander" in there, but I will admit to holding a red passport, following the chariot, paying taxes and living in mr Cameron's paradise!

But I drinks Guinness or Glenfiddich, or both but not in the same glass.
Have at me with "banter" or trolling or racism or thick inbred Cornish eejit.
It's the internety, and you can say what you like. I've had far worse from far better,

FWIW most folks north of the border disliked me before I even opened my mouth, either they were the best judges of character or hated the cursed English on principal - still I had the last laugh........ But I won't say why, there is no statute of limitations on my crimes!!!


Hey we are related - as they say we are all Jock Tamson's bairns:ok:

[TomJoad]

Oh the irony :D :D

Yup the real irony was that I suggested you count and tally them. But hey ho you be selective Roland.. Oh the irony:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

But hey ho you be selective Roland

Not to me old son. But hey ho you be selective TomJoad := :mad:

[bcgallacher]

Just about all Scots are nationalists but only a minority are Nationalists - the referendum will result in a 70/30% no vote. The present SNP government have done a decent job of governing the country but it is doubtful if 'Wee Eck' can muster the votes for independence.What worries me is the referendum could result in a fanatical Nationalist group resorting to violence when they do not get the result they want.

[Courtney Mil]

Let's hope it is 70/30. One issue may be that the YES voters are more politically motivated than those that just want things to plod along as they are. That often leads to a far better turn out for the "radicals" than the lethargic majority. A potential, say, 40/30 vote (in terms of total population) would suddenly look a lot closer, whouldn't it?

TJ, I'll try to stop over thinking.