What to do next?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I have interesting situation. I will try to explain, and I would like to see opinion ,experiences or so .

Simple question is " What to do next?"
Effort has been given in order to establish proper SMS and particulary effort has been given to change "safety culture" from pathological to generic.

But nothing has been changed.

where is problem?

Or it might be that story about "safety culture" is not true anymore.

I said today, that none had proved differently so far ( success bussiness withous SMS,at least in aviation ) and many authors still claims that,but is it possible that it has been changed?

Do you or someone else, experienced better results without proper SMS, is there something new, that is not known for us ,casual workers :ok:?

what our managers know that we don't know?

thanks in advance :ok:

[Armchairflyer]

Don't know if I grasp your concern; if I understand correctly, the company has tried to "install" a safety culture by implementing safety management systems, with limited success.

Unable to offer any personal experiences or opinions on that, but there is a quite recent study from medicine that deals with the topic of shared safety climate at the "sharp end" as opposed to safety management systems (or "tools" as the authors call them). According to the results of this study, the safety tools implemented by management apparently did not reduce the occurrence of errors, but the safety climate among staff did (Attitude is everything?: The impact o... [Health Care Manage Rev. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23085639)). Maybe that helps a bit in the sense of corroborating your observation that despite SMS "nothing has changed", even though it admittedly does not answer the question of "what to do next".

[alf5071h]

“One underlying reason why cultural change often fails to succeed is that the new situation is unknown to the participants. If this is added to existing beliefs, such as the belief that the current situation is as good as it gets, then there is little real need to change and failure is almost certain.”

Safety Culture – Theory and Practice (http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFulltext/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-032///MP-032-08.pdf) P Hudson.

This excellent paper provides several views as to the problem areas.
The need for SMS can be regulated, created, inspected, and overseen, but unless action follows the words - walk the talk, attitude, or particularly by checking the processes’ functioning, then safety improvement is wedged between ‘planning’ and ‘action’; page 9.

[Piltdown Man]

Which country? What is your national attitude to safety? Are the "guilty" ever prosecuted, demoted or worse? Is a reporter ever punished?

PM

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Thank you very much for responses and ideas. I will need a few days to examine proposed texts and ideas, and then I will return for further discussion and questions.
Thanks :ok:

[Bye]

Not sure i fully understand the question :confused: but i assume you have tried to change your SMS culture from that of one based on evidence and symptoms, where your SMS reacts to these symptoms and acts to reduce the risk of an undesired outcome from a chain of events initiated by the symptoms. To a SMS which takes a set of "standard" generic risks and implements risk analysis based on those standard risk sets, ignoring any new outcomes and occurences from the risks previously identified and effectively saying there are no new risks just the same old generic ones that need to be mitigated and failed to get buy in from all stakeholders of this new culture.

firstly with culture it cannot be imposed, it can only be encouraged, nurtured and allowed to thrive in an organsation. if all stake holders neither understand or buy into this culture that you want it will not happen.

Secondly i agree that a generic set of risks in a SMS is not a good idea in my opinion as it closes the door to other stakeholders having some ownership of a risk event, if the standard reply is that its covered by the generic event probability. Wheras by allowing the stakeholder to believe they have come up with a new risk event and allowing them to champion the process, to own the risk understanding and illimination they buy into the process and outcome and this breeds a culture of safety.

There is no better way to engage the disinterested in safety than to get them to come up with all the things we are doing that might not be safe and then go through the SMS, scoring and reducing the risks for themselves.

You cannot impose safety upon someone, you can make them do a risk assessment for example, but they don't have to believe in it or take any notice of it, believing that they've done the risk assessment so thats the ass covered and we're safe now is a sure fire way to circumvent safety.

the bottom line is that with any culture change it has to be introduced as secondary effect of what you change, not the prime driver of your changes.

so back to your example, you want to change to a generic SMS, why, i assume it must save money, or do you believe it will create a lower risk business, do you think that your staff tasked with safety ( that's all of them ) are not up to the job of running a SMS such that you have to take the human factor out of it altogether, are you saying that the input of the staff is in fact a risk that you are trying to reduce by taking away their input to the SMS. or do you think that you can anticipate every risk in advance and have no need to learn and adapt pathologically as you go along.

Personally i feel generic safety systems and processes are a risk in themselves and i don't advocate a Voltairian approach top safety. If you can define every risk for every circumstance and define the mitigation for every one of those risks and know and truly believe that you will never see anew risk to safety from this day hence i will be very surprised, which means that if you did drop the pathological approach and something new comes along you won't actually have a SMS capable of dealing with it and you won't even know its there as a risk waiting to bite you in the ass.

just a few thoughts on SMS's.

GB

[Clandestino]

where is problem? Probably in Serbia.

Or it might be that story about "safety culture" is not true anymore.Oh sure, it's the world's fault that safety culture was misunderstood, misused or both in the local application.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

No . and definitely not that context that you might wish or think. ;)

Previous posts are just excellent :ok:, I need just time to examine all given solutions.
also open for further comments and views. :D

[framer]

Bye and Alf are onto it.
My bet would be that the reasons and drivers for implementing are the cause of the failure.
If the SMS is introduced because the regulator requires it and for no other reason, then it will not be particularly successful.
The CEO, the Chief Pilot, and the head of training have to believe in the value of what is being implemented. If they don't, then the implementation is a waste of money. In addition to believing, they have to be able to communicate those beliefs to the staff. That is what leadership is all about, beliefs. Communicating anything else ( tasks, outcomes, consequences etc) is just management.
Do your highest level managers/ leaders believe in the SMS and it's value?

[Piltdown Man]

SMS will only work in a company/country which has an open, non-jeopardy reporting culture and non-punitive legal system. If you are in one of those countries, you will NOT be able to implement any system that requires people to potentially incriminate themselves. Examples in Europe are basket cases like Greece and Spain who love punishment! Crash = Police = Prison - Now let's have an investigation! And I'll bet they are all proud of their SMS systems!

PM

[SINGAPURCANAC]

returned from " non -internet" enviroment :}

SMS is introduced because the regulator requires

No clear request. If you asked them officially, they have it "something in the progress" but there is no hard requirement for full system.
I know that fish should be cleaned from head,but story goes further than regulator.

The CEO, the Chief Pilot, and the head of training have to believe in the value of what is being implemented. If they don't, then the implementation is a waste of money. In addition to believing, they have to be able to communicate those beliefs to the staff. That is what leadership is all about, beliefs

It is just one part of problem. I am looking for reasons.
All of them are educated. All of them have already finished all available SMS courses. At least they know basic things, some of them claim that Safety is their destiny. :ugh:

But they block with all possible means effective SMS?

that lead us to situation that is pathological type of organization prevailing ( but not strictly, in some areas bureaucratic type has strong roots )
People do not recognize it with these terms, but they have strong feeling that it is not OK, and more definitely it won't be OK,long term looking. People publicy express their view and problems, and solutions for many issues are easy. If you put effective SMS. :}

I tried many different approaches ,but nothing worked.
Since I said, NO passaran, I am searching for anwers .

So,
Why educated management, blocks effective SMS ?
What they know and what they will achieve,short and long term ?
What kind of force , pushes them to block something that is proved to be effective and good?
What is behind such activities ?



I do believe if I find answers to these questions that I will find way to change things.

Money is not problem. ;)

Anyhow we don't have it.:}:}

and thanks for everyone taking part in this "research" :D:ok:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@Piltdown men,

there is one interesting point that is contrary to that idea.
So far it has been proved without any exemption that only "protection" you may get is viable trough SMS and ocurence reporting system.

When you write down report, you are immediately protected.
Believe me, I did it :}

That is something that all people knows, and what is more important, all managers know it.
That proves , that managers know some thing, and it is not possible to know this but doesn't know reasons and regulations for full effective SMS.

that is the reason why I believe that they know something else.

thanks, :ok:

[framer]

So your aim is to establish a working SMS in your company,
but your management seem happy to preside over a " pathological" culture?
It sounds like you have an uphill battle ahead of you.
May I ask what part of the world you are in?
Also, how senior is your role within the company?
Ps congratulations for daring to change the status quo.

[Saint Jack]

SINGAPURCANAC: Company acceptance of a formal Safety Management System is nothing new and has been noted world-wide since the statutory requirement for an SMS was introduced.

In order to better understand your problem, please answer these few questions:

1. What legislation (country) are you operating under.
2. What kind of company (airline, charter, private, etc.) are you working in.
3. How big (number and type of aircraft) is the company.

Your answers will help other to zero-in on your problem and offer ways to assist you.

[Bye]

Some "possible" answers to think about.

Why educated management, blocks effective SMS ?

imposition of change upon them without their agreement or buy in, when they have been doing the job ok for years and you come along and tell them it must be done a different way because their way is wrong.

What they know and what they will achieve,short and long term ?

they will maintain their own self belief and worth, you are telling them to change, but not convincing them why they should change, you yourself don't know why they should change, or haven't said so here yet. why you want to change things, save money or better SMS - safer airline.

What kind of force , pushes them to block something that is proved to be effective and good?

pride and self worth in the experience they have over the new boy coming in crapping in the crypt and creeping out again.

What is behind such activities ?

Pride and self worth, feelings of worthlessness because you want them to change when they may not agree or you haven't asked them to agree, just imposed a new SMS. and as you said yourself tried to impose a new culture which you cannot do in this way.

Change in any organisation has to be handled very very carefully, get it wrong and you end up with a real mess and a disaster waiting to happen, and they will look for your neck to stick it around.

it takes real man management skills to introduce any kind of systemic radical changes and often will lead to changes in staff along the way, it could end very messy if you don't get a grip on the situation.

You basically have to convince them its their idea not yours but you may have already shot your bolt on that tactic.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

returned from some bloody Balkan wilderness, no internet no electricity, only sun and sea. :}

thanks to all for taking part, excellent ideas and useful help.

Let s start ,
Company: Air navigation Service provider
Number of people: less than 100
Legislation: standard European requirements ( yes I know, it is very broad definition , but it seems that it works all around Europe the same way. someone EU/EASA/Eurocontrol puts regulation but local regulator is key player. It takes time before some signed regulation come into force. )

I spent a lot time trying to introduce effective SMS. Reason? It will be better with it . I have tried many attempts and always found a wall. Bigger or smaller. I did all changes in approaches, and everything that mentioned here as a problem I had already seen and adopted.

But again it doesn't work.

We still have sentence, " We don't need it , and SMS ( non existence of it ) is not problem. "

I am aware and have no doubt that SMS related problems are actually management problems but I would like to find answers.

it seems that bye sums it nicely so I will try to discuss on his notes,

imposition of change upon them without their agreement or buy in, when they have been doing the job ok for years and you come along and tell them it must be done a different way because their way is wrong

At first I never do anything that it is not agreed with managers. that is where "walls" started basically. They believe that problems are nor safety related. And I change politics, not telling that they doing wrong, but again no results.
Whatever kind of approach we take ,soon or later we faced the same answer. It is not SMS related. End of story.

but not convincing them why they should change,

what to tell to convince them? I give numbers, laws, and more importantly solution but nothing changes. I am trying to avoid the worst possible solution for convincing. Serious occurrence. :(

new boy coming

I would like to be "a new boy" but after 15 years of operational work, it is not applicable. ;)


reasons and drivers for implementing

what is wrong with idea to make better job environment?

we do change drivers,a few times. That is point where I started to seriously think about problem. At first I believed that it will be easy job. We had educated managers, our colleagues and more importantly friends at one side and need to improve things. Solutions were at hands. But resistance started. Recognized it immediately, and changed tactics. Pushed others to do it, but results were even worse. Stop doing anything in order to give time for convincing, again nothing. Now turning to game and trying to understand problem in order to find workable solution.

somewhere I read that ,that there is no change before personal changes. that is the reason why they blocked all changes, they protect their chairs(positions) .

Here is point. Neither me nor anyone else concerned asks for positions. At least not theirs positions. It has just been offered to improve environment,by implementing effective SMS. Either way solutions has been given, always taking into consideration personal need ( money and carrier ) and so on.

and that is where I am confused and worried.

thanks for taking part in discussion. :ok:

And one more question,
Does anybody know for long run successful aviation business without effective SMS ?
Just curious to know ;)

[Bye]

Does anybody know for long run successful aviation business without effective SMS ?

good question, what is the measure of success. Zero crashes ? Zero Deaths?

without a KPI you have no measure of success or failure in SMS terms.

As for the rest i can see your problem, and i really don't want to offend you but you need to look at your approach to change not the recipients.

Your posts tell a clear story that it is everyone else who is the problem, well its all of you as a team that have a problem, not you or them in isolation.

You say you keep telling them why they should change, and they don't like it it, have you considered that maybe they are right and you are wrong. ( a very alien concept on PPRUNE ).

Why not go back and ask them to come up with a better SMS for the company with a KPI in place. Effectively throw your toys out the pram and say ok if you can do it better go ahead and do it better.

BUT you must before anything else put some measure of success in place, you really needs some KPI's so you can take the emotion out of the equation and rely on numbers. Systems love Capta so go get some.

come back and tell me how many safety incidents you have had per 1000 operating hours for example, not just i want a better system.

Get the data, make it capta and base a decision on that capta and monitor going forwards. ( sounds a bit pathalogical doesn't it rather than generic ) which is where we came in i fear.

Why not try and convince us of your new system and see how that goes.

GB.

[framer]

The KPI thing doesn't sit right with me. They are a means of justifying a position and can be manipulated. As a measure of success I think they are dubious. They only measure one thing and systems are much more complicated than that. I think they are a crutch that is leaned upon when insight and decision making is weak.
If you owned an airline and your primary goal was to pass it on to your grandson, would you need KPI's to tell you if the safety systems were getting better or worse?
Good idea about getting the OP to convince us though, I like that.

[Piltdown Man]

You can run forever without SMS. African, Asian, Greek, Italian, Spanish, Turkish etc. airlines will have to do so (no matter what it says on their paperwork). The reason is that these are punitive cultures - the reporters and/or perceived transgressors will be sanctioned. Therefore, the predictive 'life blood' of the system - reports from the lowest level of the organisation and objective, transparent, blame free incident/accident reports are not features of these areas of the world. And even if legal framework for such systems were installed tomorrow it would take a generation for them to become taken for granted.

Then think about the those who lead the organisations without SMS. Will they sleep well at night? Which in many ways is what it's all about. In a punitive culture they know that they will deal with any violator by sacking them and if its a "biggy" the justice system will do the rest. Nothing quite like "shooting the perp." That will stop re-occurrence! Why, because even in Britain the majority of the public and their 'red top' press (and I'll include the Express and the Mail) love a good lynching. We are also fortunate in having the AAIB and a slow legislative system.

For SMS to work, the surrounding environment has to be prepared. The foundations are a 'Just Culture' with protection for reporters and those who make honest errors - and that doesn't happen overnight and will not happen in less developed parts of the world for a few years yet. We will have a few more wrecked aircraft in towing accidents, scary flight profiles and smoking holes in the ground first.

PM