Conversion Training

[Steevo25]

Just a very quick question. I think I know the answer but thought I would ask anyway.

Does conversion training to a different aircraft type have to be done by an instructor? Or can it be done by flying with someone who is not an instructor but has many hours on that type?

This would be for insurance purposes as well.

The reason I ask is that I have now purchased a Jabiru and there are 2 of us flying it. I have done my conversion training with an instructor but we have a third person who wishes to fly. The other pilot in the group has a few hundred hours on the Jab and we was wondering whether he would be permitted to carry out the conversion training or whether this third person would have to pay an instructor to sign him off.

Many thanks in advance.

[shortstripper]

If you (or the person you are talking about) has the correct licence for aircraft "type" then it is basically a checkout unless "differences" training is required. So for instance if you have an SEP rating and normally fly nosewheel simple SEP's then converting onto another simple nosewheel SEP, it is just a checkout and can be done by another PPL or you can even just jump in and fly it without a checkout (legally I mean). If you are going to a different "type" like TMG then it has to be an instructor.

I'm pretty sure that's correct, but things are changing so often now, it's a struggle to keep up!

SS

[Piper.Classique]

I've flown a few new types without a check ride. A lot of them only had one seat :}
Good idea to read the manual first, and if possible get a briefing by someone experienced on type. In your case you should first ask your insurers what they need.

[Steevo25]

The insurance asked the question on the proposal if conversion training had been carried out but are a bit unclear as to what this means. I had 6 hours conversion training with an instructor, the other person never had conversion training but has been flying a Jabiru since about 2001 so has a lot of hours. The new person has over 700 logged hours and has a fATPL but has never flown a Jabiru. I enquired to add on to the insurance and this is the question they asked. I asked if it had to be an instructor but they were very unclear.

My colleague is quite happy to take the new group member up for a few hours but I just wondered what other people had experienced.

[Piper.Classique]

Steevo, whilst is is entirely legal for your prospective member to fly with the experienced friend I would ask you do consider a couple of points.

Firstly, insurance companies are in the business to make money. They have been known to get sticky in the event of a claim if they can get out of paying by claiming you didn't meet their requirements. If they won't give you their requirements in writing then go for the instructor option.

Second, the new member deserves a bomb proofing too. The syndicate member can certainly show him how the aircraft flies, possibly better than an instructor who knows the aircraft less well. The problem comes in knowing how far to let the new member go if the conversion is going badly.

Experienced pilot. 700 hours in similar types, or 700 hours in something completely different? I've flown with plenty of heavy type pilots who had great difficulty with the lack of inertia of a small span, lightweight aircraft.

In the grand scheme of things, and taking into account the proportionate cost over a few years flying of some time with an instructor, I would suggest that the instructor could save you money in the long term. You trained to fly the type with an instructor, if you are happy with the way the training went then why not get the same person to fly with your new member? If the new member is competent then it won't take long anyway.

Or change your insurers for a company who will say what they want.....:E

[Mariner9]

Your contract with your insurers requires you to exercise "utmost good faith". You must disclose any actions that you think could conceivably affect an underwriter's decision to insure you.

Chances are the insurers will be perfectly happy with your proposal for a pilot with the appropriate class rating to be checked out by a pilot current on type but you should let them know, in writing, beforehand and get their approval.

[englishal]

There are two issues here.....what you are legally allowed to do, and what the insurance require you to do.

Example, I have plenty of time in complex and turbo charged aeroplanes, and when we bough a complex TC'd aeroplane the insurance stipulated "a check out with a qualified flight instructor". This includes CRI by the way who is considered a QFI by the insurance company. This was despite legally being qualified to fly the aeroplane.

It is a good idea anyway, but in the case of a simple SEP I doubt any insurance requirement like this would exist. It would probably stipulate a minimum number of hours, and then a check out could be accomplished by a fellow group member. When I joined a group which operated a simple SEP, this was how it was accomplished anyway.

[riverrock83]

For the person taking him up - has he ever tried to fly / land from the other seat? This in itself may take practice. Is he experienced in taking control with little warning, when the student gets too slow on landing?

Also the experienced pilot wont be used to pointing out mistakes in others, and wont be used to "teaching". They may also not be used to flying to a specific standard - rather they fly to what works for them. There is a reason that the FI course is so long...

There is a group at my club which is pretty much self contained. They have a well specced touring aircraft (archer) that each of them often flys alone or with friends but rarely with other pilots. None of the group members are instructors but they do their own checkouts. In observing the plane land very flat, almost on 3 wheels (tricycle undercarriage) at what appeared to be a high speed (for the umpteenth time) the club instructors approached various members of the group, suggesting a refresher might be useful, but none took up the offer.
Last weekend there was a prop strike after a bounce on landing.

Can they do it? Probably (yes unless insurance says no). Is it a good idea? You know the person better than the rest of us - but like everything in life, you will need to balance the risks.

[shortstripper]

I think there is some confusion here in the wording.

A "type" conversion is quite different from being checked out out to fly another aircraft within the same "class" of aeroplane. A Jaribu is a simple SEP and is in the same "class" as say a Cessna 150. You do not need to "convert" to fly a Jaribu if you typically fly a C150. It may be sensible or be an insurance requirement to fly so many hours with an instructor or nominated check pilot, but that is not a conversion. If you fly Cessna's or a similar SEP's and want to fly a motorglider for instance, that would be a conversion as the aircraft is a different "type". To further confuse things, "differences" training may be required within an aircraft class, such as tailwheel, and that might very well need formal training.

Simples innit?

SS