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boaccomet4
18th Apr 2013, 15:45
Although I have been out of commercial aviation for some years I still keep in touch with and am contacted by the many wonderfully talented human beings with whom I flew. I frequently get calls from distressed airline pilots who have been traumatised by (in my opinion) unreasonable demands made of them during SIM and Line Checks (or whatever they are called these days.

There are a number of RPT operations in Australia who have Check Captains who suffer from the same common inept human factor. Line pilots are absolutely terrified of them. Some of these characters are control freaks and fail to have them empathy for the candidate. Some are used by Flight Operations Management and the HR department to use the the Check to diminish the spirit of the candidate with the end result of a broken spirit. This is especially those candidates who have dared to question a potential flaw in the standard operating procedures, deficiencies of a safety nature or the culture of the airline.

Some Check Captains get appointed because of Seniority or nepetism with management. Some are great operators and respected by the line crew. Others have a malicious streak and actually get a false sense of power out of the control and power they are allowed to exercise over the candidate.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. THESE SORT OF CHARACTERS ARE DISEMPOWERING TALENTED HUMAN BEINGS IN ORDER TO SATISFY THEIR DEFICIENT EGOIC NEEDS.

IF FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANAGEMENT DO NOT SEE THE TREND OF CARNAGE THESE PR"CKS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PLUS ACTUALLY COSTING THE COMPANY A SH"TLOAD IN RETRAINING AND DOWNTIME THEN I PRESENT YOU A METHOD OF BRINGING THEM DOWN.

THE Legal Eagles are not going to like this.

CHECK LIST FOR SIM CHECKS AND LINE CHECKS.

1. TAKE A MEANS OF COVERTLY RECORDING THE EVENT WITH YOU.
2. DO NOT EVEN TELL THE SUPPORTING CREW MEMBER WHAT YOU ARE DOING. DONT TELL ANYONE.
3. DO NOT ARGUE THE POINT WITH THE CHECK CAPTAIN JUST ACCEPT THE CRITIQUE AND RECORD THAT TOO.
4.IF YOU FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN BULLIED THEN ENGAGE AN AVIATION SAVY BARRISTER.
5.DO NOT WARN ANYBODY IN THE COMPANY OF YOUR INTENT.
6.TAKE OUT A CIVIL ACTION OF WORKPLACE BULLYING AGAINST THE OFFENDING CHECK CAPTAIN. HAVE IT PRESENTED TO HIM AT HIS PLACE OF RESIDENCE (even better if it his birthday or wedding anniversary).
7. HAVE OTHER CREW WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME TRAUMA ORDERD TO ATTEND AS WITNESSES. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY PRIOR NOTICE OF YOUR INTENT.
8. IF YOU CAN GET VOLUNTARY SUPPORT FROM OTHER CREW FOR ITEM 7 THEN EVEN BETTER. BUT MOST PILOTS ARE TERRIFIED OF RETRIBUTION SO THE METHOD IN ITEM 7 MAY BE A WAY OF PROTECTING THEM FROM BEING ACCUSED OF BEING PARTY TO YOUR INTENT.

I expect a number of you will give me legal reasons why this may not be viable and I welcome your feedback.

Would it not wonderful to create a legal precedent if such an action was successful. Management might then be forced to review the vetting process for Training and Check & Training positions within the organisation.

halfmanhalfbiscuit
18th Apr 2013, 18:02
boaccomet4,

This site is worth a read. Sadly there seems to be too many cases in Australia that suggest many don't know the difference between management, leadership and bullying.

Bully OnLine: Tim Field shares his unique insight into workplace bullying, a cause of stress and ill health and the basis of harassment, discrimination, prejudice, abuse and violence (http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/)

Sunfish has posted some concerns on the senate inquiry.

McGoonagall
18th Apr 2013, 18:13
One way round this is for the respective unions to press for every sim/line check to be video recorded for images and sound. It could be argued that it is a valid training tool to be used for feedback and ongoing assessment?

thorn bird
18th Apr 2013, 23:25
Mcgoo. totally agree, who checks the checkers??

maggot
18th Apr 2013, 23:31
Gees. I must be lucky, gotta say - apart from a couple back in the day when i started ive had a decade of pretty good folks in the sim. Just the odd prick on the line :rolleyes:

Exit Strategy
19th Apr 2013, 00:56
As an alternative to points 1 -8 noted above:

1. turn up on time
2. actually know something about the job you are paid to do
3. assuming you have items 1 and 2 under control don't get worked up (you do not get paid a bonus to care what a checker thinks).

Some time ago I was in a sim ride that the other individual was being looked at closely. The checker briefed me not to assist or lead him and just see how things developed. He was incompetent and (amongst other issues) got lost in a circling approach. That was the fact but he probably told all his mates that he was being victimized.

I have no doubt there are problems out there but remember that there are always two sides to the story.

ringbinder
19th Apr 2013, 01:08
boaccomet4 - what a suggestion, NOT. Very confrontationalist and puts everyone in the same basket for the attitude of a few. I don't suggest for a moment that such characters exist, however they are not the rule, but the exception - at least in Australia, in my experience.

How about refusing to sign the check form (most companies complete them at the end of a sim session and require the checkees to acknowledge them), advising the check captain that you don't agree and you intend speaking to your particular flight ops department.

This immediatley elevates the matter in an appropriate manner AND brings about accountability on the part of the check captain. It is this accountability you suggest is missing.

A decent flight ops department would investigate the matter, giving all a chance to put their position.

Your post potentially paints everyone involved in checking and trianing as villians - and that is simply not the case.

Vorsicht
19th Apr 2013, 01:19
Yeah, it's a funny thing about being a pilot. You actually have to know what you are doing to satisfy most checkies. The 51% approach favoured by most of our educational institutions doesn't really cut it in the harsh reality of aviation. So whilst there is probably a small minority of what could arguably be called bullying, as there is in most workplaces from timt to time, i bet the vast majority of cases are a difference of opinion between a CASA approved check Captain and Line pilot as to what constitutes competent.

But by all means go ahead with your covertly recorded evidence. That's just what we need, more incompetent pilots in our jets because the PC brigade doesn't want to hurt anyones feelings.

Wonder where that will sit on the corporate risk register?

framer
19th Apr 2013, 01:20
There is one simple difference between good checkers and dickheads.
Ego.
Have a think about it......the good ones are not motivated by their own ego, the dickheads are all about their own power and looking experienced/ knowledgeable .
This personality trait should be part of the recruitment assessment for check Captains in my view.

ad-astra
19th Apr 2013, 01:30
boaccomet4

Firstly can you STOP SCREAMING!

Next I must admit in 36 years of flying I have yet to experience anything like what Mr Comet is suggesting.

I too like the idea of turning up early, know your shit and get on with the job.

It's not that hard.

To turn up with plans to covertly record a session because you think the world is against you to me indictes that you should not realy be turning up at all.

More importantly don't drag me as the support pilot into your sim session that you have spent more time trying to defend than to excel at!

Perhaps we are now seeing the results of the 'next generation' who have only known the policy of getting an award for being last as well as first!

fl610
19th Apr 2013, 01:37
ad-astra :ok:

pjac
19th Apr 2013, 01:44
There is only one problem with the discussion in place-in this forum, at the moment. Anyone who has NEVER experienced bullying-who have expressed disbelief of its existence, are IMHO. unable to recognize it, when it occurs.

wrongwayaround
19th Apr 2013, 02:13
Bullying is real in this industry - it does happen. It's happened to me in the sim.
I won't divulge what happened here, because it will probably disclose my identity...
But be advised, there are sim checkers here in this country that are egotistic bullies, and CASA (or some legal body) need a way of regulating it more closely.

Mach E Avelli
19th Apr 2013, 02:16
On checking the checkers: A British airline once conducted an experiment. Some of the best minds in the organization put together a LOFT scenario, then covertly got some of the best stick and rudder people to practice it to perfection in the simulator.
Then they handed the exercise to those checkies who had a bit of a reputation for being screamers or overly anal to run on the guys who were already skilled at it.
The de-briefs were recorded, and of course there were criticisms levelled at the 'candidates'. The outcome was to put a flea in the ear of the check pilots and sell the idea to them to stop nit-picking just for the sake of filling in de-brief time, and to stop trying to flog their particular hobby-horses. As far as the airline was concerned the check division's (note it is a division within the wider organization and not some ego-tripping individual) job was to assess whether a safe and compliant standard had been reached and whether company SOP and policy was met.
The TRAINING department's job is to bring pilots to the above-described standard. If the check department has 'stuff' it wants tidied up, the two organizations need to consult.
If line pilots can't meet reasonable standards after proper initial training and on-going recurrency, either the training itself is deficient or ridiculously demanding, or HR needs to be overhauled (keel-haul 'em, I say) because they are employing half-wits.
Flying ain't that hard. Plenty of people do it.

hiwaytohell
19th Apr 2013, 03:35
You need to differentiate between bullying, and simply trying to get a person to either do their job or meet the required standard.

Whilst I have seen some absolute arseh0le check & trainers over the years, once the session & debrief was over everyone moved on. I cannot say have I ever seen anything that could be considered bullying.

The only examples I have seen of people who have made complaints about bullying were from people who were not achieving the required standard and had been given far more chances than they deserved. I had one manager dragged through hell on a charge of bullying, when really he should have sacked the individual for repeatedly failing to meet the standard long before instead of giving that person multiple second chances.

So before you start your own covert intelligence gathering consider if you put the extra effort into your own performance would the problem go away??

As for arseh0les, just accept they are a fact of life and move on.

haughtney1
19th Apr 2013, 04:52
It's funny reading some of the post on here.....

the "turn up on time and know your sh1t" contrasts with the "they then gave it to their training dept who proceeded to nit pick.."
The reality is there are 3 types of individual who inhabit training departments, the egoist about 15-25%, the lifestyler 15-25%, and the genuine individual who wants to impart genuine knowledge to improve the overall picture.
Of course there is the occasional individual who has such an inflated opinion of their training ability that they fall into the first and third category, and there is also the 1-2% who are indeed the true industrial psychopaths, who appear all sweetness and light when under the spotlight, but the spots return back in the normal environment.
Taking on the training dept is a no win situation..the only way to deal with the occasional a hole is a quiet "chat" in the carpark....worked for me:}

Gas Bags
19th Apr 2013, 05:27
BC4,

You forgot about point number 9.

9. Enrol at your local TAFE for vocational training.

You will have to pay the bills somehow and by the time you get through points 1-8 you wont be doing it from a cockpit anymore.

Hobo
19th Apr 2013, 05:33
Gees. I must be lucky, gotta say - apart from a couple back in the day when i started ive had a decade of pretty good folks in the sim. Just the odd prick on the line

And when you get your command, you realise that they aren't all in the left hand seat!

wizzkid
19th Apr 2013, 06:13
Having flown now close to 20 years, I've had one experience in the sim that would qualify as certainly extremely unpleasant but not quite harassment. Having the misfortune to previously flown a bigger aircraft the the said instructor and that fact having come up, the atmosphere created by the instructor from there on was downright nasty. Without going to the details the ex Ansett -89 scab made the two days feel so bad that still after close to six years I remember it vividly. Still one must bear in mind that everyone has bad days but not that bad two days in a row.

Fuel-Off
19th Apr 2013, 06:46
Have to agree with the general consensus here - if you don't know your :mad:, belt up and listen to what the checkie has to say. I've seen heaps of crews come into a sim session with fists already flying before the checkie has even said g'day! :ugh:

What I don't agree with and I think perhaps is the pretence behind this topic is when checkies preach preference over policy. := No one cares what you think might be better, if it goes against or muddles the SOPs...that's toxic training.

Fuel-Off :ok:

maggot
19th Apr 2013, 06:56
And when you get your command, you realise that they aren't all in the left hand seat!


oh yeah for sure! I pity those who have to endure me! :} :8

Hugh Jarse
19th Apr 2013, 07:06
1. TAKE A MEANS OF COVERTLY RECORDING THE EVENT WITH YOU.
2. DO NOT EVEN TELL THE SUPPORTING CREW MEMBER WHAT YOU ARE DOING. DONT TELL ANYONE....

7. HAVE OTHER CREW WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME TRAUMA ORDERD TO ATTEND AS WITNESSES. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANY PRIOR NOTICE OF YOUR INTENT.1. Not likely to be admissible in any legal proceedings, as you have not advised the person/s you were recording of the fact beforehand.

2. That's the perfect way to piss off a work colleague (who may have sympathy to your cause). Don't expect his/her support at any inquiry. Expect to be on every other pilot's SHIT LIST from that day forward, as the word will spread.

7. With such a selfish and aggressive stance, good luck getting anyone - aggrieved or otherwise, to assist your cause in any way.

In over 20 years of simming, I've had a couple of instances of conflict in the sim. All were sorted satisfactorily by the end of the SIMEX.

The first involved a checkie who was under CASA surveillance. I had the sim stopped mid-sequence, and we discussed the way the SIMEX was being run. Resolved. The CASA bloke said he would have done the same thing (at debrief). The checkie was normally very good in the sim, but I just put it down to pressure (on him) having CASA in the back checking him.

Checkies get stressed, too :ok:

The second was on my first jet endorsement (with an old school sim instructor). He repeatedly yelled in my ear, and at one stage hit me with his pointer :} I politely informed him that if he did that again, I would shove that pointer up his fundamental orifice - sideways, and that I doubted he would have a QRH procedure for THAT.

From then on the sessions went just fine. He turned out to be quite a good instructor (with his average trainee). He just needed some ground rules, as we all do.

Having said that, my experience is different to some others here. All the checkies I've simmed with have been fair and reasonable, in spite of some of the horror stories I'd heard before first being checked by them. Some have been down right fantastic. All have wanted to impart knowledge in some way, whether it be in the box or in the debrief (or both). And I've always walked away knowing a little bit more than I did beforehand.

maggot
19th Apr 2013, 08:03
^^^ well said that man.

Metro man
19th Apr 2013, 08:47
If a sim instructor or check pilot is criticising small points then that's obviously better than being picked up for major points. Most I've had have been good, with one or two glaring exceptions. Even on a check ride the good ones can teach you something.

Some airlines use the training department to get rid of people they don't want.

ejectx3
19th Apr 2013, 12:32
They certainly do.....

boaccomet4
19th Apr 2013, 13:12
The whole intention of this thread was to provoke discussion. I respect and agree with most of the opinions. Thankyou for reading the thread. You guys took the bait and the feedback is fantastic.

I too have held Checking & Training Approval in the RPT environment so I do have a fair grasp of what it is like to be a candidate and what it is like to be a Training Captain and a Check Captain. The last thing I ever wanted to do was fail someone but the bottom line is "If you don't meet the Standard then don't play victim because you didn't do your homework or apply yourself."

I had no intention of painting all Check Captains as villians. Most are fantastic trainers aswell. But there are some who are there for the wrong reasons and they should be culled from the system. I have had a couple of nasty experiences with such characters and it was extremely disempowering. I don't like to see people suffer at the hands on such charaters.


Let's face it - FEAR OF FAILURE often gets in the way of a good performance and I speak from my own experience. Yet when in real life you do have to handle a challenge using lateral thinking your performance will depend on your skills and knowledge and you will usually perform better than if you were being checked.

Keep this discussion going. The intent was to provoke discussion and thankyou so much for your interest.

Sarcs
19th Apr 2013, 13:33
boaccomet4 well done! You got the desired affect and created a great debate and fired up a core of the industry that truly know what they're about, so again well done.:ok:

However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:
One way round this is for the respective unions to press for every sim/line check to be video recorded for images and sound. It could be argued that it is a valid training tool to be used for feedback and ongoing assessment?
Although I don't know about the union involvement just make it an SOP of the operator. God knows it'll certainly keep the whole system honest and above board...my 2 cents worth.:E

sheppey
19th Apr 2013, 13:57
Without going to the details the ex Ansett -89 scab made the two days feel so bad that still after close to six years I remember it vividly.

"The ex Ansett - 89 scab" Are you sure that perhaps your problem with said gentleman was ideological - not technical?

Jack Ranga
19th Apr 2013, 14:19
Great thread, great read :ok:

maggot
19th Apr 2013, 14:26
boaccomet4 well done! You got the desired affect and created a great debate and fired up a core of the industry that truly know what they're about, so again well done.

However I thought this suggestion perhaps should be considered:

One way round this is for the respective unions to press for every sim/line check to be video recorded for images and sound. It could be argued that it is a valid training tool to be used for feedback and ongoing assessment?

Although I don't know about the union involvement just make it an SOP of the operator. God knows it'll certainly keep the whole system honest and above board...my 2 cents worth.


You're kidding yourself if you think any reasonable training organisation would want in on such an idea. Just think of a taped crew being involved in an incident perhaps due to their short comings... Let alone the privacy of the crew :ugh:

Lookleft
19th Apr 2013, 14:43
You're kidding yourself if you think any reasonable training organisation
would want in on such an idea. Just think of a taped crew being involved in an incident perhaps due to their short comings... Let alone the privacy of the
crew

Ansett used to do it when they were still doing four sims a year.One sim was a dedicated CRM session and that was videotaped to be used as part of the debrief. The tape was wiped in front of the crew at the end of the debrief in front of the crew.

FYSTI
19th Apr 2013, 15:19
The tape was wiped in front of the crew at the end of the debrief in front of the crew. You just made maggot's point - the implication of McGoonagall's (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/512846-workplace-bullying-sim-checks.html#post7800184) post was that the tape would be kept beyond the debrief, for possible review. How would the data be stored, for how long, what circumstance would it be reviewed and by whom? This is a pandora's box that very few would want to see opened on both sides, management and union as it could have large unintended consequences and enormous legal ramifications.

This is separate to the use of video strictly as a training tool and wiped at the completion of the session, which is still in use today.

pcx
19th Apr 2013, 15:26
I am sure that some of the CASA people would love that.
I can just see them demanding to see the recording for a sim session them applying their bullshit to pick it to pieces.
As a training tool maybe but otherwise, no thanks.

McGoonagall
19th Apr 2013, 15:43
Perhaps I was a bit vague. The main reason for the recording was that any pilot that felt he or she was treated unfairly would have immediate evidence for raising the matter further up the food chain. If, however, there is no cause for concern then any recording should be deleted after debriefing.

SumFingWong
19th Apr 2013, 23:40
Having previously had nothing to do with the dispute (or Australian aviation for that matter).....

the ex Ansett -89 scab made the two days feel so bad that still after close to six years I remember it vividly

.....has a very common ring to it. Plenty of the C&T clowns Ive met in the middle east and Asia seem to have this particular background.

Coincidence ?

ratpoison
20th Apr 2013, 01:48
Exactly SumFing.

The orange cancer has apparently set up a scoring system to be eligible for 787. One must meet an average of 3.7 or thereabouts. Non-Ansett lads are getting all 3's, so hence they are told they're not seeing the 787. Classic corrupt system to then bring the "boat club" back home and grow the cartel ranks.

The last few EK gents are being allegedly set up for a fall in their next sim as they must be out of the system before the 787 arrives.

I'm going to enjoy watching the outcome of the "boat club" trying to set up and remove one particular ex EK Capt. They better be very very careful with this chap as he is one cat that's best to have as a friend rather than a foe. :D

How on earth has the industry been allowed to dive to such depths in only a relatively small amount of time.

Captain Dart
20th Apr 2013, 03:36
The industry in Australia has been diving since the year that was mentioned in a previous post, and you can blame those of a certain 'encrustational' background, and those who stood back and did nothing.

One could pretty well tell who was going to weaken even as it was brewing, and now the next generation of young Aussie pilots are having dealings with some of these people, and not finding it pleasant.

Brian Abraham
20th Apr 2013, 05:39
In certain circumstances instructors get their comeuppance. The following story had legendary status when I went through training in 1967. Everyone at the time thought it was just that, a story. Not until a couple of years ago did I find it was indeed factual.

The recording captures radio transmissions of a flight in which four instructor pilots replaced four (unsuspecting) student pilots who were dutifully heading to their airplanes for their formation flight check ride ("final exam" in formation flight). Lieutenant Nichol, their assigned check ride instructor, was renowned for his abrasiveness such as the way he screamed at his students on the radio. Thus his fellows singled him out for a little "life lesson."

On this occasion his fellow instructors drove him "nuts" while the proceedings were taped by the Saufley Field tower (note background laughter). It seems LT Nichol may have been the ONLY person in the Basic Naval Air Training Command NOT in on the joke, as his four fellow instructors royally screwed up everything imaginable. Note it takes LT Nichol only about 3 minutes to correctly diagnose his problem as hopeless and order the "students" back to base. That's when the "fun" begins and it takes over 15 minutes to get them back.

Legend maintains that LT Nichol, an officer of considerable administrative skill, later exacted retribution on the "ringleader" of this caper, a Marine major. In revenge, he created fake orders transferring the major to a west coast assignment, thus causing the major to put his house up for sale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snq_CT_7rrk
Saufley Field 1953 Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

Ovation
20th Apr 2013, 07:50
Then again, workplace bullying is a specialist field for lawyers and a refuge for some employees who are not up to the task or lack the personal attributes to cope with other people.

It's a growth industry in the public service.

LookinDown
20th Apr 2013, 09:01
Wrongwayround has it right wayaround...bullying is as present in aviation as it is in any other industry.

There is no less of it in the private sector than in the public sector. The difference is that the public sector must conform more rigidly and more explicitly to appropriate behaviour to employees and employers under OH and S legislation. The law applies equally to both of course but more education on it and greater awareness and understanding of it occurs in the public sector. More formal complaints are made in the public sector as a result. Unfortunately there is also a much greater rate of unfounded complaints lodged, too often resulting from people simply not wanting to do as directed.

This leads me to my next points.

Some of the comments in this thread summarised by 'suck it up princess' do no good whatsoever. Equally of concern is that there are a number of posts which seem to show a misunderstanding of what 'bullying' actually is. Dealing with a demanding checkie who expects high standards and doesn't beat around the bush in pulling you up, even if tersely, isnt a bully and isn't bullying.

I say the latter is of concern as was mentioned by someone else in this thread (sorry couldn't find the quote). if you do not know or recognise what bullying is then you are far more likely to bully at some point and excuse it as simply necessary behaviour in dealing with princesses.

From Wikipedia
Bullying is the use of force or coercion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion) to abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse) or intimidate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidate) others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28social_and_political%29). It can include verbal harassment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment) or threat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat), physical assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault) or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_humans%29), religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender), sexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation), or ability.

The general consensus is that such behaviour becomes bullying when it is repeated.
If you felt abused during one ride but not next time around with the same guy next to you or behind you it is hard to argue he is a bully. He just had a bad day.

Please note the last of the grounds listed in the definition. Bullying of a pilot under a checking situation sim or otherwise simply because they are underachieving is just as illegal and unjustified as doing it on the basis of their racial background.

Even if they got pissed the night before their sim, or spent only 15 minutes preparing for the check beforehand or even if they just cant fly, they are still entitled by law not to be bullied in the workplace whether you think they deserve to be or not.

If a pilot or anyone for that matter sees, commits or accepts abusive behaviour in the workplace, they are in for a really hard lesson sooner or later. If you still aren't sure what bullying is, when you are eating in restaurants in the future, observe how some patrons treat the wait staff. Those who make a complaint assertively but politely earn nothing but respect from all concerned.

The waiter may still spit in your next course in the kitchen but if you bullied them they will be doing far worse to it.
LD

Don Diego
20th Apr 2013, 10:35
Captain Dart, you have hit the nail on the head. Bravo.

Centaurus
20th Apr 2013, 15:54
The following story had legendary status when I went through training in 1967. Everyone at the time thought it was just that, a story. Not until a couple of years ago did I find it was indeed factual.


I can believe that, since a similar event happened at RAAF No 1 Initial Flying Training School at Archerfield, during the period 4 March to 14 March 1951.
Except it was nothing to do wilh bullying as a subject.

One of the students on our course was Trainee Aircrew Ed Buckley. Ed was a delightful fellow and enormously popular because he was so naive and totally honest in every way. Except he couldn't fly very well which is a pity because he so wanted to be a RAAF pilot. He was a farmer before joining the RAAF and had big feet which is probably why he had troubles with the rudder bars in the Tiger Moth. It was probably also why he had little success at dancing with pretty girls at the Brisbane Cloudland Dance Hall on week-end leave because he wore his RAAF boots to the dance.

Ed passed all his ground subjects but was a bit clod-hoopy on the parade ground when marching. Nevertheless he was liked by everyone and even the drill sergeants who hated everyone - or so it seemed to us.

The purpose of No 1 IFTS was to sort out would be pilots from would be navigators. Each trainee would be given five hours in a Tiger Moth and assessed. He then changed instructors and given another five hours. On the completion of the ten hours dual he would be tested by the CFI or flight commander. There were around 60 of us on course. Marks were given for flying skill and a line drawn. Those above the line would continue training to be pilots. Below the line became trainee navigators.

Now poor Ed who was about 23, was unable to cope with the Tiger Moth and even before the final CFI assessment was regarded as hopeless. Following a conference between some of the instructors, Ed's instructor Pilot Officer Jim Flemming (later AVM Flemming), told Ed he was not even going to put him up for the final test and that was to save Ed the embarrassment of failure.

Instead Jim Flemming was going to pretend he was Ed Buckley and present himself for the test with the unsuspecting CFI Flight Lieutenant Rex Berriman.

On the day of the test in the Tiger Moth Rex had already flown with one trainee and after that trainee had climbed from the Tiger Moth. Rex gesticulated for the next muffled figure to climb into the rear seat of the Tiger while the engine was still running.

In those days RAAF pilots flying the open cockpit Tiger Moth wore a heavy two layered flying suit called a `Wooly Bull`and long leather flying gauntlets, fur-lined flying boots in winter, a cloth or leather flying helmet with wrap-around goggles. Some looked for all the world like King Kong in combat boots. And don't forget the parachute to sit on.

So when Jim Flemming finally levered himself into the back cockpit and helped to strap into his Sutton harness by two airman, he was unrecognisable to the CFI who could only see him via the rear facing mirror in the front (instructor position) cockpit. With so many trainees to be tested, the CFI would not have recognised the voice in the back over the rudimentary battery operated intercom system in the Tiger Moths.

Now I won't embellish the story from here on because I wasn't there to watch the actual flight. I had already done my flight and was now in the crew room. . But within an hour everyone knew what had happened. After cockpit checks were complete the CFI told the student to take off into wind on the all over grass aerodrome. . Therein for the next 15 minutes followed a wild flight with the CFI now thoroughly frightened as Jim Flemming aka Ed Buckley threw the Tiger around the sky and bounced all over the field on landing.

It was said that Rex Berriman screamed at the student saying he was scrubbed. When finally the Tiger Moth came to a stop on the airfield and the CFI cut the magneto switches, he hauled himself out of the front cockpit to tackle the flying fiend in the back who had tried to kill him.

Imagine his surprise when Jim Flemming the rear cockpit occupant, raised his goggles back over his forehead and laughing his head off said to the CFI - "Gooday Rex- enjoy the flight?" :ok: The CFI's reply was not recorded...

Captain Sand Dune
20th Apr 2013, 22:59
As has been said for many years; do unto other as would have them do unto you.
Unfortunately some forget this, particularly that one day someone will do unto them in a way they themselves would not like.
Then again, workplace bullying is a specialist field for lawyers and a refuge for some employees who are not up to the task or lack the personal attributes to cope with other people.

It's a growth industry in the public service.
And these days, not unheard of in ADF flying training either.

Popgun
20th Apr 2013, 23:49
I hear that the punitive, subjective, toxic checking culture has become intolerable at OrangeStar.

Apparently the numerical scoring situation was raised with the CEO in a town hall-style pilot meeting recently but candid discussion was not possible with so many mid-level and senior flight ops managers in attendance.

There is a good reason that CAR 217 was changed ever so slightly back in the early 90s by the CAA. The legislation was nuanced to place the word "Training" before "Checking" as an emphasis to industry that while checking was obviously required, the core function of an in-house T&C organisation with this delegation is training.

Valid fear of checks (and Big 'C' SUPERCheckies) at this airline will likely remain until a non-blue shirt new broom is able to sweep out some of the nasty personalities involved. Aviators like this have no place in a modern Training and Checking Organisation...let alone on a flight deck.

PG

Madame Bandit
21st Apr 2013, 03:15
Popgun & ratpoison

Keep the faith my friends. Be rest assured, there is going to be some serious brooming soon. These unpleasant people that Capt Dart alludes to have sacked, belittled, denigrated, sim failed and destroyed peoples career for a long time and are now seriously affecting the younger generations professional attributes and strengths.

Much is going on behind the scenes by a small dedicated group who have had enough of these inept little boys prouncing around in white shoes. These folk have had their careers and are not perturbed by the possible ramifications or fallout.

Change takes time, but there is going to be change. :p

nitpicker330
21st Apr 2013, 03:31
A very good mate of mine was badly screwed over by one of "those" heroes whilst doing training for QLink at their MB sim 5 years ago. Long story but my mate left the course and this was one of the main reasons....

wrongwayaround
21st Apr 2013, 04:06
Believe me when I say I've seen it all - I've had the best and worse sim checkers.
a good story - the best sim checker I've had was an old-school style bloke (started out flying moths, apparently). He'd use phrases such as "well done son" or "that's the way, boy".
I remember once when I wasn't grasping a concept, he asked me to get out of my seat (mid sim session) where he would sit himself down and DEMONSTRATE the co-ordination and manipulative techniques.... This is an example of a man that understands that different people have different ways of learning.
In my very humble opinion - Herein lies the one big problem, in our industry. Most check and trainers don't understand that everyone learns differently.
You can ask any school teacher - and they will tell you:
Some people learn by reading, some by doing, some by watching an example and replicating. I'm at a loss to understand why 99.99% of check and trainers in this country fail to realize this!
I went home from that aforementioned sim with a real sense of achievement- almost like I was already looking forward to the next one (crazy right?).

Lookleft
21st Apr 2013, 04:48
I hear that the punitive, subjective, toxic checking culture has become intolerable at OrangeStar.

Funny I heard the same thing the other day as well, but it was about the sexually pure airline. There was even a thread about it somewhere.

I also remember being asked about my sim scores at an interview for the cultural icon airline. Should have seen the look on the interviewer's face when I produced copies of all check forms. Something I noted that wasn't provided in the airline that I was applying for.

Greedy
21st Apr 2013, 04:59
WWA,
That's a great example. There should be more of that in my company. Unfortunately many good practices (like demonstrating something ) are being regulated out. Checkers and Trainers are actually not allowed to demonstrate in Sim sessions and it is very very rare to see someone ignore this and demonstrate for someone who is experiencing difficulty.

rowdy trousers
21st Apr 2013, 07:10
What exactly is a "non-blue shirt new broom" ?

Mach E Avelli
21st Apr 2013, 07:33
Some checkers and trainers would be reluctant to attempt to demonstrate a manoeuvre for fear of making fools of themselves.
I was being endorsed (in aircraft, not sim) by a 'screamer'. It was a rough day and I was horsing it down final approach with this guy yelling "speed" at 5 second intervals - the ASI was bouncing around in the turbulence and was plus/minus about 10; sometimes momentarily a bit more. Any fool should have noted corrective action being taken without resorting to all this noise. In exasperation I called "your control' and forced a handover, then politely suggested that he demonstrate his special technique for controlling speed accurately under the prevailing conditions. As soon as it got out more than plus 10 minus five I started on the "speed" "speed" spiel and had the added satisfaction of getting in a few "slope" calls as well.
He handed it back quickly enough and stayed very quiet for the rest of the detail.
Check and training pilots should never expect a candidate to perform an exercise they can't demonstrate to the required standard if called upon to. Ditto, checkies should never ask a question unless they know the answer and can produce it without resorting to notes. Otherwise, candidates will not respect them.

As for the toxic environment which apparently is still alive in some Australian carriers, although I have never personally been victimised by the few pre-89-ers who could never put that sad time behind them, I did meet one germ who attempted to assassinate me (he failed) and seen it in action applied to others more vulnerable. One particularly nasty specimen was heard to announce in the crew room that he was going to fail a command upgrade that I had partly-trained and recommended before he had ever flown with the guy.
The check went ahead and failure was set up even as they taxied out, by the checkie engaging the poor candidate in an argument over something as trivial as setting the heading bug. Later the candidate was proved right, but it was too late; his confidence was shattered and it cost him another year in the RHS.

Fortunately, there are not many of these poison dwarfs left in the airlines, and attrition will see them gone soon. We can only hope that they don't seek a second career as simulator instructors, though if they did go to work for the likes of Flight Safety they would have to learn to be customer-oriented PDQ.

Popgun
21st Apr 2013, 08:20
What exactly is a "non-blue shirt new broom" ?

Blue Shirt = negative-toned colloquialism within Jetstar given to the Checkers, Trainers, mid-level and Senior Managers that are part of the former-Ansett clique.

They form one of the powerful Jetstar cultural 'tribes' that is often at odds with the former-Impulse 'tribe'.

Industrial agendas, nepotism, cronyism, grudges and a lack of fair play is often involved. The behaviour runs from petty to shrewd and is what most Aussies would label "unAustralian".

PG

clear to land
21st Apr 2013, 10:01
Interesting to read that demonstration is being regulated out. Here in the sandpit that is definately not the case-and we Instructors are encouraged to change seats for a demo if we think it will facilitate learning. Then I guess thats the crux of the matter isn't it-learning/training vs Checking. Unfortunately I did find the Big C Little T is prevelant (with a few notable exceptions) within the ex AN guys, but you don't really realise how much better it can be done until you experience real training yourself.

A37575
21st Apr 2013, 11:18
Check and training pilots should never expect a candidate to perform an exercise they can't demonstrate to the required standard if called upon to

Never a truer word. Asian pilots are often criticised for their loss of face culture.

Some checkers and trainers would be reluctant to attempt to demonstrate a manoeuvre for fear of making fools of themselves

Dead right. Loss of face happens in Western society, too:ok:

maggot
21st Apr 2013, 12:59
Blue Shirt = negative-toned colloquialism within Jetstar given to the Checkers, Trainers, mid-level and Senior Managers that are part of the former-Ansett clique.

Thats the part that confuses me with these terms bandied about, by ex-ansett do you mean ex ansett 2001 or ex ansett 89?

clear to land
21st Apr 2013, 13:24
It refers to those who joined whilst the ban period was on-described by a word that starts with 'S'.

nitpicker330
21st Apr 2013, 13:28
More than a couple of old farts x An from before 89 that weren't particularly liked then either.......hence they became what we know as S****

halfmanhalfbiscuit
21st Apr 2013, 13:57
This thread is proving very popular indicating there are issues across the industry. If you haven't taken an interest in the senate thread yet it is worth a look.

It may even still be worth putting an eleventh hour submission in. But, the report is due on the 30th April.

C441
22nd Apr 2013, 00:57
Ditto, checkies should never ask a question unless they know the answer and can produce it without resorting to notes. Otherwise, candidates will not respect them.

Yes and no.

I learnt a great deal from some outstanding trainers who had the incredible skill of holding a conversation that expanded my knowledge, offered practical advice and generally added to my confidence by not highlighting my lack of knowledge but allowing me to show what I could add to the discussion.

As a trainer myself, I always tried to use the same "discuss rather than question" technique and this would often produce situations where neither myself nor the trainee knew the answer to an aspect of the conversation. This would lead to me asking a question that neither of us knew the answer to and the trainee knew it. "Buggered if I know but I reckon I know where to find it" was often the response from me! It also levelled the gradient (yeah weasel words I know) between us both and also encouraged the trainee to question themselves (and me) without feeling they were demonstrating their lack of knowledge and jeopardising a successful outcome to their training.

......And any trainer that doesn't believe he can learn from a trainee is missing a significant opportunity to expand their knowledge.

clark y
22nd Apr 2013, 00:58
I find it a shame that as everything is becoming more complex, time limited and outsourced simulators are becoming purely a checking device. I thought that the big picture was to learn what will save you and how to be proficient at it.

Boaccomet4, with respect to bullying, I have not been a victim of bullying in while being checked in the sim or on line. That being said, where I work, I still feel there is certain individuals and areas of management from where this issue has been born. CASA does not help. I could elaborate more, but as this forum is not entirely anonymous, I won't. I don't want to fall foul of some of the double standards that exists within the check and failing department.

Mach E Avelli
22nd Apr 2013, 01:34
441, no dispute about sometimes learning from one's candidates or trainees. At the training stage, of course the instructor will probably be using notes and prompts to help get the message across.
What p!sses me off is the CHECKER who comes armed with a notebook of trick questions and proceeds to wrong-foot the pilot who is already under enough stress.
This baaad technique is guaranteed to set candidates up for a poor performance, and when real aeroplanes are involved (as in line checks), it is potentially dangerous to have stressed pilots in the driver's seat.

Prior to checking someone, it is more likely that you will get better results if they are relaxed. With this in mind, other than to ask the obvious, like how to interpret the forecast applicable to that flight or complete the weight and balance, I keep any 'educational' discussions to the post-flight stage.

Creampuff
22nd Apr 2013, 02:41
The following story had legendary status when I went through training in 1967. Everyone at the time thought it was just that, a story. Not until a couple of years ago did I find it was indeed factual.I heard a story about an instructor who had an unusual method of putting trainees under pressure in Tiger Moths.

After take-off, he would reach down and undo the control stick in the front cockpit, hold it up and show it to the trainee, then throw it overboard….

Anyway, legend has it that this trick became known to the trainees. One day, one of the trainees rostered for a trip with this instructor hid a spare control stick down the leg of his flying suit. After take-off, the instructor reached down and did the usual trick and threw the control stick overboard after showing it to the trainee. At that point, the trainee reached down and grabbed the spare control stick, showed it to the instructor, then threw it overboard…

Legend has it that the instructor then bailed out, and was subsequently court-marshalled.

Sand dune Sam
22nd Apr 2013, 07:18
Never experienced it in my career... Having said that, I have heard all the stories...the question that needs to be put to these so called " axe men" is.... Are they aware of the karma circle? I'm sure many aren't because of their own ingratiating style.. Or the way the corridor creep would be a better term..but karma does have a way of catching up with people in the end...

MASTEMA
28th Apr 2013, 09:02
It is interesting how most “bullies” huff and puff their way to the top.
One notorious militaristic belligerent bi polar Napoléon covers his lack of knowledge, standards and ability through the use of bullying and classic CRM terms such as;
· Read my lips
· Listen sunshine
· That SOP is bulls..t
· You do realise who I am
· I am feeling generous so you get a ‘2’
There is a noticeable link between the bully instructor/ check captain and the lack of basic training they received. The theory of learning and teaching, and as mentioned in earlier posts, spending many hours actually demonstrating techniques are the foundation blocks of good teachers and assessors.
People use bullying as a defence mechanism to hide their deficiencies. They usually create an air of fear around them and use raised voices, verbal threats or even purposely failing candidates to promote this fear.
The more devious also work behind the scenes to spread rumours or undermine the credibility of those they wish to bully or usurp. In public they will appear friendly and reasonable toward the individuals they are bullying while twisting the knife from behind. And they derive immense pleasure from doing so!
To deal with bullies during SIM and Line Checks, work hard at creating an air of professionalism, knowledge and self-assurance. Bullies rarely tackle confident individuals face to face but if they do, do not react. Note what happened or what was said and advise the bully you will clarify with the T and C Manager.
If someone in the workplace is considered a bully, start discussing it with your peers. The weight of peer group pressure will greatly reduce the effectiveness of the bully, even if the individual is the boss.
Best advice; stay clear of bullies they are the grubs of society.:ok: