NATS pay offer

[160to4DME]

A highly unscientific straw poll to guage opinion :)

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Ah, I see Mr Chisolme has cast his vote LOL :D :D :D :D

[OrsonCart]

Brilliant idea, hope Prospect, PCS and NATS senior managers are watching!

[Spotter]

I can't help wondering if the votes cast for the first option are tongue in cheek.

[sector8dear]

I can't help wondering whether the votes cast for the 'industrial action' option aren't tongue in cheek.

The offer is no worse than previous years and as ever it's not the most important thing. The danger of SirCo buying part of NATS, and the general lack of investment and progress are more worrying than the annual pay round.

Keeping powder dry etc etc apart, we have never 'gone out' before over the odd half percent and whatever people think, 9/11 DID hit the avaition community and NATS hard.

Probably NATS should not be in the private sector in the first place but presumably the powder was wet at the time so it happened!

Perhaps the time has come to separate ATCO pay from the rest of NATS, don't know, but don't get into the destructive realms of industrial action and taking sides against colleagues over this. Trust me, I've been there, it's not good.....and the damage lasts for ever!

(No smilies this is serious)

[rafflying]

Sector8

C'mon, to quote the phrase, YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS.

Anyone who has any respect for themselves and their job will have researched the terms and conditions of fellow colleagues in Europe.

This is not an issue over the odd half of one percent.

This is about the systematic erosion of our pay scale and conditions and the constant promise of "We'll hit them next year with a whopping demand."

I'll hide behind the parapet after saying this and say that part of the problem has been caused by our representation which has constantly told us to keep our gunpowder dry. Like lemmings, we have followed, much to the delight of NATS management.

New Management have gone into these negotiations knowing we have a reputation for letting pay enhancement opportunities pass us by.

Serco is NOT a danger. There is no question that we have inherited the lesser of 2 evils. Have no doubt SERCO, this will NOT provide you with a back door entry to NATS; the staff will simply not allow that to happen, no matter how bad it seems now.

With respect, I would say that now is THE most important time for us to stand up for what we believe we are worth; anything less, and we are starting a precedent for negotiations and the pay and welfare of all our colleagues in the future.

STAND FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH AND BE COUNTED.

Please please vote with your convictions in 160's poll.

[BEXIL160]

All...

I like to think that I have moderate views when it comes to pay and conditions, and admittedly fairly strong ones when it comes to technical matters

HOWEVER....

Enough is enough. Our Pay as professionals has been systematically eroded over the past few years and NOW is the time to stop the rot.

This pay increase is to cover the NEXT two years, not the last. What has happened then is not relevant. We are being paid for the hard work we will have to do in the future, not the past.

If this comes to industrial action I would suggest that the cutting of OJTI, LCE and other additional duties is not the way to go. We need to ensure that the management see this as a SERIOUS dispute in which we intend to get SERIOUS results. The quickest way to achieve that is shutting down each unit on a random basis. (I think you have to give a certain amount of warning, but lets make it the MINIMUM).

Is your future worth ONE days pay? I think so.

The costs to the airlines would be MASSIVE and certainly far greater than our paltry pay claim. Since we are supposed to be operating in the big, bad, commercial world giving us a rise would make ECONOMIC sense.

I note elsewhere that the cost of ONE B744 is £120m, and BA has more than a few. What would be the cost of meeting our pay claim? Peanuts in comparison. More importantly, what would be the costs in NOT MEETING it?

Go Figure

BEX

[Diggo]

Sector8dear

I'm with you on this one, seems pretty fair to me, after all we are paid pretty well anyway (compared to joe public).

We should be grateful, look at the poor nurses and teachers.

Regards

Diggo

[rafflying]

Diggo

Such a broad sweeping statement.

Please tell us all exactly what jobs and professions you would put yourself alongside in comparison.

Oh the poor nurses and teachers; are you a reporter for the Mirror ??

If you claim to be an ATCO and are satisfied with your and pay and conditions, please do enlighten us all as to why; from here, I see my unit to be almost unanimously and resolutely against this pay cut.

Be the ostrich; keep your head in the sand and your arse exposed to the shafting they are proposing. I, for one, find it too painful to accept.

Am I in a minority ??? I think not.

[160to4DME]

Diggo, I have serious doubts that you are an ATCO.

Why am I rejecting this deal ??

Because, after 14 years at NATS, my partner who is a CSD for the world's favourite, works less hours than me (although she is away more often than I would like) , and consistently brings home more than me.

Even she is bemused by this fact.

Despite 9/11, I am working harder, handling more aircraft, working busier sectors and doing far more with "goodwill" than I would like.

I am not greedy. However, I look around and see that my pay, my conditions and my lifestyle have gradually been eroded, despite climbing the scale.

Raffling hits the nail on the head; it all depends on what you compare the ATCO scale to. I am not a taxi driver, I am not a teacher (although I am an underpaid OJTI), I am not a bin man.

They do not compare themselves to my profession, so why should I lower my standards, my expectations, and compare myself to them ?

My neighbours, my friends, my family are solicitors, pilots, doctors, IT specialists. Once upon a time, I was on the same tier as them; these days, I am the very poor relation.

So please, if you are going to compare job for job, atleast compare more pertinent examples.

For the record, I voted with the majority on this. I have never, ever voted for industrial action before, but by God, this time I certainly will.

160

[alloneword]

just to add some fuel to the fire, some US Congress quotes:

ATC Pay Raises Eyebrows
A number of congressional eyebrows went up markedly during DOT inspector general Kenneth Mead’s testimony on runway incursions when it was revealed that an air traffic controller in the Kansas City area is making $174,000 a year under the five-year contract that the FAA signed with the National Air Traffic Controllers Association in 1998.

“That’s a better job than this one,” quipped Rep. Harold Rogers (R-Ky.), the chairman of the transportation appropriations subcommittee, who makes about $145,100 a year in base salary. It also was pointed out that it far exceeds the $133,700 pay of members of the senior executive service, which are the highly placed, non-appointed department heads and professional researchers such as FAA associate administrators.

Pressed by Rogers on the controller’s salary breakdown, Mead explained that the individual’s base salary is $125,000, with the remainder made up of overtime and incentive pay, as well as night and Sunday differentials.


"According to the panel, the average controller will be paid $135,000 in the coming year, and that equates to 93 percent of what FAA Administrator Jane Garvey is paid. Next year, more than 9,500 controllers will have salaries exceeding $100,000."


from:
www.ainonline.com/Departments/AIN_washington01.html

[Scott Voigt]

Actually, those pay numbers are a bit high for an average. The $125,000 base pay that they are quoting is on the HIGH side. I work at an ATC-12 facility ( that's the highest that we have in the US right now. ) the likes of DFW, ORD, ATL etc... I transitioned at the step 9 level (very high seniority ) of which there were only 10 steps. After four years of pay reclass, I now make $125,000 as a base pay. It is a very good salary, but probably only about 10% of our facilities are at the ATC 12 level, and of those controllers, only about 15% to 20% are at my seniority level. Most facilities make less and quite a bit less as most towers and approach controls are not nearly as busy (yes we get paid by the aircraft <G>).

There are some facilities and controllers that they quoted who are always short staffed and are ATC 12 facilities. These facilities have a few senior controllers who work a LOT of overtime. Those are the ones who are making the BIG BUCKS! Are they earning it working six day weeks? You bet they are and there are a lot of folks who are getting tired doing it. But I guess that we are going to get a break. The FAA is way over budget due to the money going out for security issues. We have been told that there is not any money left for overtime per se... It's going to be an interesting summer...

regards

[160to4DME]

Now, if the poll up to now isn't a clear, simple message to Prospect and NATS management, I don't know what is.

If the people who voted for number 1 really are NATS ATCOs, I'd be intrigued and fascinated to read why they chose to vote that way; but that would negate the anonymity of the poll :p

160

[ContactLondon]

Surely now is the best time to push for a better and fairer pay rise!

All the ops staff are always being praised for helping out and coping when things go wrong, by the management, so now is the time to show how much they REALLY do appreciate the staff.

As for the pay being reasonable already, whether you want to compare yourself to other jobs or not, you may be surprised to find that ops staff are not that well paid in comparison.

Also lets not forget, the pay deal is for 2 years, so theoretically the traffic levels could increase dramatically, but the unions would not be able to negotiate until a specified time in 2004.

[Standard Speeds]

:(
Confusion reigns...
There are many problems with a two year pay deal, not least Contact London's point re. traffic increasing above and beyond pay.

I am sure that every one in NATS can understand the financial pressures which the company, through no fault of its own (New Labour must bear the brunt of the blame) now finds itself with.
However, put aside all beautiful feelings of loyalty for one second and consider this:

2.2% this year, with inflation already at 2.3% equals a 0.1% pay cut in real terms.

Next year, government forcasts are for inflation to be around 2.4%, if not a little higher. That reduces a seemingly favourable pay rise from 3.7% to 1.3%. Knock off 1% for your increased Income Tax, sorry National Insurance (because they are oh so different aren't they President Blair?!) and you are left with a 0.3% pay rise in 2003.

Not so attractive. Consider also that whilst inflation may be 2.3%, some goods such as petrol, utility bills and Council Tax all have a habit of increasing faster than the base rate of inflation.
Oh! and any increase in interest rates, or any activity on the anti-terrorist missions being brokered by Presidents Bush and Blair could see inflation rocketing.

Yes, the deal is far, far better than we were ever led to believe that we might be given; a good bit of spin doctoring by someone, perhaps?

Just the thoughts of a typical ATCO...


:D

[Bigears]

In happier times (i.e. pre- privatisation) I would have perhaps settled for roughly whats on offer, as I'd have the companies best interests at heart.
However, since privitisation it has become obvious that 'they' don't give a s*i* about me, so I'd like to be able to return the favour :mad:
Roll on one day rolling strikes.....

Maybe I'll be calmer tomorrow.......then again, maybe not :(

[PPRuNe Radar]

Doesn't affect the anonymity I believe, but at least 2 of those who voted for No.1 are (assuming you believe their profiles and previous stances on NATS issues) not even employed by the company. :rolleyes:

I'm sure we can start a new one in the NATS Forum when people are on board without the usual suspects who always declare they have no interest in NATS pitching in on every NATS topic under the sun ;)

[Atlantic]

Are we, NATS ATCO's being mislead by our trade union Prospect ?
During the anti privatisation campaign I clearly remember being told, at an ATCO/IPMS meeting, that we could not take strike action to demonstrate our disapproval of the proposed privatisation. This we were clearly told by the IPMS headquarters officer and by the Chair of the ATCO's branch.

Imagine how surprised I was to see, earlier this month, the Naval dockyard workers (civilian) on Clydeside on a one day strike against the proposed privatisation of the Clydeside Naval dockyards. Guess who their trade union is...PROSPECT !!!
HOW COULD THEY DO IT AND NOT US??? ARE THERE SOME COSY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN MR BLAIR AND MR NOON ???

Ayrmis.

[tug3]

Atlantic: Glad I'm not the only one who was surprised to see others do what we were told/advised we could not.

Standard Speed: Looking again at the figures from management it seems unclear as to what year 2 is likely to be -

"the November 2002 RPI + 1%; or 3.7%. The November 2002 RPI used would be either the underlying or headline rate (whichever is higher) as published in December 2002"

I read that to mean that if the headline rate is 1.4% and the underlying rate 2.4% then our settlement will be either 3.4% (larger RPI + 1%) or 3.7%.

No prizes for guessing which "or" will be awarded then!

Is it that the 3.7% should be regarded as a maximum? Can anyone (esp. IPMS reps) enlighten me?

Could we be looking at 2.2% this and not exceeding 3.7% next?

[Bigears]

TUG 3, well spotted! I hadn't noticed. Thanks.

[Standard Speeds]

tug 3,

I had assumed that the offer implied RPI + 1% (based on Nov 2002 rate to ensure that we are given pay rise on time in Jan'03) or 3.7% whichever is the higher. If it is not clear about this then something needs to be done to ensure that the formal offer, if accepted, is black and white. I wonder whether it has lost a few words here and there in the relaying of information from OKS, and in fact it does mean as I summise?

If underlying rate of inflation is, for example, 5% in Nov '02, then the deal would be 6% for 2003, rather than 3.7%. I hope.


Still leaves the fact that should inflation be that high, then the 1% offered above it will merely pay your Income Tax (sorry, there I go again, I mean National Insurance) increase. So - again no pay rise - merely inflation keeping.

Ok - no-one can blame NATS for Brown's red box announcements and the company themselves also have to pay an extra 1% per staff member - so that won't help any drive towards a better deal. Then again, the staff can hardly be blamed for the rise either, and one might argue that we shouldn't have to "pay" for it from the pay offer. i.e. when the offer was made there was no proof of what might be announced in the Budget, and now what may have seemed a reasonable deal looks worse than was supposed.

Who knows?

:confused:

:D Nice sunny afternoon 'though! :cool:

[tug3]

Standard Speed:

Cheers for the reply - makes more sense to me now, if still as unpalatable as before.

So, basically, average inflation pay increase year 1 then average inflation plus 1% increase year 2, and as you rightly say, include NI contribution increase of 1% and you are a percentage below inflation year 1 and only match inflation year 2, so overall the pay deal doesn't keep up with inflation when the NI contribution increase is taken into account.

And we are expected to vote yes to what I hear others refer to as a pay-cut in real terms?

Is anyone in any public/private sector industry in the same boat? I'd like to hear if they have accepted such an offer.
T3

[160to4DME]

Perhaps Prospect could invest a small proportion of our subs in photocopying this thread and mailing it to every single ATC manager within NATS.

Now THAT'S what I'd call representation of our views :)

How about it Prospect ???????

160

[BabFacedFinster]

Good to see such strong support for industrial action. Lets face it peps enough is enough.

Fact Number One
We work harder year on year, but our pay rises have never given us more than a cost of living rise.

Fact Number Two
The argument that there is no money in the kitty does not hold. The government is still a major shareholder. If they can find cash to fund Railtrack (and it's shareholders), then they can find the cash for deserved pay rises.

Fact Number Three
There will always be excuses not to give staff pay rises. If we do not stand up and make ourselves heard now, then what chance will we ever have in the future. We are a Sleeping Giant in the company, now is the time to waken.

:) Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it

[Cuddles]

Everything I said in the Pay Deal post still stands

"What's the difference between Prospect and a chocolate teapot?


You could eat the teapot.

My powder is dry, and has been for ages. I have a match, and the time has come to put the two together. We've been saying "Let's just accept this one, because we can't be arsed with the hassle, we'll kick up a stink next year" the time has come to stand up for what we know and believe to be true. Anyway 18 months valid on T&D, with another 8 to go before the proper payscale, it's the only payrise I'm going to get.

Have a think about Industrial Action, figures used are, I believe representative, but have been plucked oout of the air (I'm on leave, and haven't got the access to the actual numbers)

Earning 30K ish, that's just over £60 a day after tax. A 2% payrise equates to about £400 a year after tax. Let's say we successfully campaign for a 5% payrise. This will bring about £1000 a year after tax. That's 9 or 10 days industrial action paid for.

BUT

The gains made are not just for this year, they're for the rest of your life, increased earnings and pension payments from the moment you put your foot down. With 30 years service ahead of you that £600 extra actually becomes nearer to £20 to 25 THOUSAND pounds, with pension on top.

Makes you think

Tell your friends

And your managers (After all, this applies to them too, unless they've negotiated an individual contract)"

Need I say more?

[bb1]

I hear everything ATC is saying about the pay offer. As an engineer I wonder if I would be better off finding a job elsewhere. My freinds in commercial industry are far better rewarded for their efforts than I am, I am stuck at the top of my band, with no engineering vacancies in sight, suffering an effective pay reduction every year. Don't let's forget that it was engineering effort as well as ATC effort that got the new centre on it's way.
It's time for a decent pay offer to say thanks for all the time and effort (and sacrifices) that NATS employees have made in the last few years. :(

[vertigo]

Pay day today. An extra spine point and 3 months training money on top. Call me cynical but the timing of managements 'final offer' is fortuitous.

[bb1]

That is just my point, a spine point would be nice..... but if you are at the top of your band and their are no more spine points to collect and no vacancies to move to......:( :(

[sony backhander]

steady on,
if Propsect (and its reps) did as you all ask they couldn't get pissed at conference, fight our corner re nerc screens and they couldn't then further their own careers now could they??
I'm glad my "powder" kept dry aren't you?!

[160to4DME]

C'mon guys, let's not be hard on those diligent hardworking Prospect reps; just a look at when the ATCO's branch website was last updated will show you how seriously they regard feedback, communication, and YOU, their customers.

http://www.atcos.co.uk

Get your finger out of your A$$ Prospect and do your duty. :mad:

[160to4DME]

Has anyone managed to extract a comment on this thread from anyone within Prospect ?? Haven't seen our rep for days !! :(

[1261]

I've just come up with a way to give myself a guaranteed £10 a month pay rise..... cancelling my union membership!!

[Warped Factor]

1261,

Then I suggest you go and try and negotiate your own terms and conditions and see how you get on :rolleyes:

WF.

[Scott Voigt]

Hmmmmmm, you only pay 10 pounds a month for representation? That is very cheap indeed... We pay 1.5% of our base pay (bottom of the scale) a month... For me, that comes out to about $114 a month... I also contribute to our political action commitee...

regards

[callyoushortly]

Scott...

Maybe that's why you get a better response from your union than we do :(

[Bright-Ling]

Scott,

we have a huge imbalance where someone earning £60K pays yh same as a trainee earning £20k

Ours should be more proportional.

[sony backhander]

warped factor , i think what 1261 means is -what a waste of money even £10 a month is. IF the union deserved more i think most would pay it- i think even i could negotiate better t&c's than they manage

[1261]

The problem is that the union - in my opinion - is trying to negotiate for far too diverse a group of people. Collectively PCS and Prospect seem to cover just about everyone who works for NATS; frankly I feel that the "coalface" ATCOs' interests are diverging from others in the company. I'm sure that our senior reps and negotiators do an excellent job, but not (in general) of respresenting my views. Try to represent everyone, end up representing no-one.

If our "consultation" meeting today was anything to go by (as an example) it doesn't really matter whether the ATCOs vote for or against the pay deal. We'd be outvoted by the rest of the company, many of whom seem to be thankful to have a job at all in the current climate (and I'm not having a go at them, that's their lookout).

Could I do things better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that I have to be jumping around for joy about the situation.

[Warped Factor]

1261

Could I do things better? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that I have to be jumping around for joy about the situation.

Of course you don't have to be jumping around for joy.

But our management must be laughing all the way to the next pay meeting when they see comments about leaving the union etc.

United we can try and make some sort of stand, divided........

WF.

[Standard Speeds]

Some musings on a theme...

I suspect that if Prospect, on behalf of the ATCOs were to break the tie/bond between PCS and themselves, then far greater (relative to 2.2%) things might be achieved in the near future, albeit not this year. Yes, this would probably mean less money for PCS and Prospect engineers, but then will ATCOs think of that? Perhaps one day it served to all negotiate the same rise, but not anymore. This pay offer smacks of something that NATS can possibly ill afford, and which is probably there to try and placate the ATCOs, not necessarily the other 4000 or so staff... (controversial!)

Whilst we're about it I don't agree with 1261 when he/she says that the rest of the company could outvote the ATCOs for if Prospect were not to recommend the pay deal to their ATCO members, officially the offer is withdrawn by management to the all staff irrespective of the outcome of voting.

The more astute of readers will notice that I have refrained from putting any personal spin on this - after all everything here is what everyone is talking about. And for those of you that were allegedly told that TC were remarkably happy with the offer, and all was sunny in WDrayton, well, if I was you i'd take that with a cellar of salt! Again, not expressing my own views as such, just what one hears all day long...

Oh well, having lit the blue touch paper, time to sit back and relax...!

Regards to one and all.

[1261]

SS, that's a fair cop; I didn't realize that the offer was automatically withdrawn in the event of Prospect's failing to recommend it.

And as you mention it, we were told (by Prospect) that TC were ambivalent to the pay deal, so if that's not the case then somebody is running a misinformation campaign.....

[MacDoris]

Down here in TC i can say that so far have not come across anyone in favour of the proposed pay deal. All is not smiles and roses in the garden of TC.

[PA7]

It seems that the ATCO'S Branch Executive Committee have rejected the pay offer from NATS, due to careful consideration and wide consultation with the members. :)

[Standard Speeds]

1261,

The suspected "disinformation" theory wouldn't surprise me. It has been rumoured that CC were told by someone on BEC that TC were content - again, as Macdoris (hi!) said - no-one really is in favour of the deal amoung the ATCOs.

PA7 - that's hot off the press information! If true (not doubting you, mind!) then will there be a ballot, or is that it?
There was talk of the ballot form being multi-faceted with regard to it not being a straight "are you for it or against it" question, but rather a series of oprions to be voted on.

Sure the union will keep us informed. Maybe before Management this time?!:D

[Undercover]

Looks increasingly like the ATCOs will vote against the deal... fair enough. As long as everyone who does is ready to put their money (no pun intended) where their mouth is and walk out the door for a significant period.

I'd say there's less than a cat in hell's chance of an improved offer being found... so the only option is a period of industrial action.

I personally believe such action should have been taken to prevent PPP but that's a digression now I suppose.

Just an early warning... with the holiday season fast approaching, I wouldn't count on an awful lot of public sympathy... no matter what the professional point of view is, Joe & Jane Public off to Minorca in June will see a group of very highly paid people grumbling over a few quid and causing them to miss their week in the sun.

I'll support the action if it happens... but then I don't have a porsche and a villa in portugal to pay for!! ;)

[1261]

Public sympathy will be a major issue here; I'm not sure that we (ATCOs and unions) have the press-management skills to carry this through. It's gonna be a bumpy ride!

Anyone know Max Clifford's number?

[BEXIL160]

Undercover....

You really want a management position, don't you? ;)

Rgds BEX

[Undercover]

Ahhh... I see you've unearthed my deepest, darkest desire... to wear a grey pin-striped suit with a sprinkling of dandruff on the collar... wear ties with unfunny comic strips on them...

Oh can life get any better than that!! :rolleyes:

Don't know if you lot would want me in management anyway... I might give you your 10% pay rise... but in order to redress the balance I may impose a 24 hour Celine Dion background broadcast in every headset and have the IT whizzkids splice in a random game of Galaxians on every screen... Oh but of course, management always believe safety is paramount!!

Hmmm... did I get off the point...?

[2 six 4]

Public sympathy won't matter a damn. Never got the nurses a decent salary did it ? What we need is a clear objective and the determination to push NATS to the brink of bankrupcy to get there.

So what are we striking for ? An extra 1 % ? a spine point on the top at Swanwick ? or upgrading the Stansted ATCO 3s to ATCO 2 ? Lets get the claim clear and go for it.

[White Rose]

It's about time you selfish ATCO's thought back to 1979.
The only reason your pay and conditions are not even worse is because of the strike action carried out by your assistants. Have you noticed how well some of them have done since. All this talk of seperate negotiations is just playing into managements hands, they love the idea of divide and rule.
We need strength now and in the future and that means sticking together.

[hatsoff]

I fear your memory may be playing tricks.
The 1979 strike did nothing for ATCOs but it GREATLY reduced the differential between ATCAs and ATCOs.
You are still enjoying the benefit of that today as an ATSA.

If one looks back , you can see how effective that action was.
When the industrial action ceased , my ATCA colleagues were moaning that they'd failed to acheive their goals. In reality they did very well ; perhaps a lesson for us all.

British Airways were most grateful for the strike. It gave them the chance to respar the Trident Fleet while blaming ATC for disruption :)

I fear the bottom line is that ATCOs must look after themselves.

[Spiggit]

Perhaps the Support staff/engineers that make everyones life so difficult are just glad to still have jobs? Hence pay rises (or lack there of) are possibly lower on their list of worries.

*Runs for cover*

[Undercover]

Or... perhaps they have a stronger grasp of economics and have their heads not quite as far up their own a*ses... ? ;)

[BEXIL160]

Undercover...

Why are you so desperate to wind up the ATCO staff?

You assert that there's no more money available. Based on what? Because the management told you so? Maybe ATCOs aren't quite so gullible.

You also assert that ATCOs would have to walk out for a significant period. Well there are 5 watches LACC, 5 at LTCC, 5 at MACC and 10 at ScOATCC. If each of us just took ONE shift (or part thereof) off you'd be looking at 25 days continual disruption.

Now, ONE shift per month to me wouldn't be too damaging, and one that I'd be only too happy to give up fo this JUST CAUSE. On the other hand I don't suppose the airlines, or more importantly, their bean counters would be too happy.

The amount of money lost by them in ONE day would be more than enough to settle our pay aspirations. Economics? Pay the ATCOs it costs x million, pay for the disruption it costs four or five times x million. Not really a difficult choice is it?

Rgds BEX

[Undercover]

I learned a long time ago (long before joining NATS) not to believe what management tell me until I've seen enough evidence to be satisfied.

Economics indeed.... The financial implications of such a disruption are certainly far higher than the funds required for what you would term a "satisfactory" pay deal this year. However, it is a one off financial loss. A substantial increase in the company's salary costs has an implication for every following year as, not only is your wage bill higher this year, but when it comes to negotiating next years increase you're already starting off with a higher cost. This is exactly the reason why old NATS management continually fobbed us off with one-off bonuses rather than consolidate into basic pay... you get a nice little bung but the salary bill isn't affected for next year.

I think it's clear from recent examples of delays due to system failrures that action in the form you suggest would have a great impact and, as I've said all along, I will support it.

As for winding up ATCOs... if it gets such a reaction then maybe it's because it's too near the truth for comfort... ?

[1261]

.... and Undercover:

Galaxians ; jesus, how old are you??

:) :) :)

[Undercover]

Decades off retirement my friend... a few decades... :p

[160to4DME]

Any more developments yet?? I'm away from the coalface for a few days.

160

[2 six 4]

Undercover. In your calculations you seem to have missed the fact that NATS is reducing staff by several hundred each year so the total pay bill is reducing. What we are talking about is shifting it towards those who will still be here in 10 years time.

[tug3]

Heard on the grapevine:

"Engineer's BEC to recommend members accept deal. Membership approx 1400.

ATCO's BEC to recommend members do not accept deal. Membership approx 1500.

If 10% of ATCOs vote with Engineers to accept then deal goes through.

Result: 90% of ATCOs VERY pi**ed off!

ATCOs likely to vote to split from Engineer's Branch/Prospect itself".

Someone please tell me this scenario is B/S...

rgds
T3
.

[slurp]

Hi ...just to say the Assistants strike was in 1977....must admit I am glad I got out of ATC when NERC was opened,but the only way to get anything from NATS is to stand together...however if you are stiking for .5-1% more think how much it will cost you in lost salary.

[Standard Speeds]

Slurp,

Personally I do not advocate industrial action to the point of striking over pay issues and certainly not the offer made last month. However, I have to disagree with you when you write that the cost of lost salary for a 0.5 -1% increase on the offer would be more than the sum gained. Sure, in the short term a week long day strike would cost (for arguments sake, taking a salary of 50k) about £1000. Now, an increase of just 0.5% consolidated would make that amount up in four years, not allowing for further pay increases/incremental rises thereafter. Assuming said ATCO has about 15 years left at work, the loss of £1000 this year could make (assuming the action were successful) about £5000 or £6000 difference to the end salary.
As I have said - I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of industrial action, nor whether its worth it for the myriad of reasons other than pay, however I am debating the sums!

(these figure are not based on my own circumstances and so there may be a little guesswork here - maths was never my forte, but I'm fairly sure that this makes sense. If not - apologies and I'll crawl back under my stone...)


tug 3,

as I understand it the pay offer can be withdrawn by management if one if the three union BECs fails to recommend the offer to its members. Therefore, irrespective of any results, should NATS management wish, the offer could be withdrawn to all staff making the ATCOs even more unpopular!



:D :mad: :cool: :confused: :eek: - mixed emotions!

[250 kts]

Maybe the time has come for the ATCOs to break away from the Engineers and the ATSAs.

At present there is a major shortage of ATCOs and therefore we are in a stronger bargaining position than either of the other groups. If they see fit to accept this c**p pay offer then good luck to them.

Remember NATS are making NO contributions to pensions at present and one of the members of the "hard up" AG is about to make a £400 million bid for a rival airline-hardly a small amount of cash.

Let's give a strong message when it comes to the pay ballot. If we don't on this one it won't be long till the AG come after us over Working Practices.

I also believe it's time for the ATCOs to have a full time national rep from prospect and I think we should all be prepared to pay increased dues to allow this to happen.

[sector8dear]

Standard Speeds, trouble is on that basis you would have to do the same every year or so and would thus always be playing catchup! Also don't forget strike days are deducted from pensionable employment and then add in the bad feeling (I've been there) that strikes engender - they won't ALL go out, trust me.

Just needs very careful thinking about. And don't think you can just stop doing things, e.g. OJT as you choose. Management will present you with a piece of paper which you either sign, agreeing to work NORMALLY, or you will be suspended (I've been there too). Tends to get it over with quicker when you are facing an open ended NO PAY situation! Don't forget there are only about 18 work days a month, so for every day you strike you will lose one eighteenth of your months pay, or around £275 per day for senior ATCO2s! (1 cycle = £1650 loss)

Sadly it also seems to me that what is being advocated by some ATCOs on this group is that the rest of the NATS staff can get stuffed as long as the best paid NATS employees get a big pay increase :mad: :mad: Divide and rule is alive and well.

Just pointing out some of the issues......:D

[BEXIL160]

Sector8....

18 days work per month? Errr no. We are PAID for our days off as well, just as 9 to 5 workers are PAID for Weekends, even though they have those days off.

Industrial action is still a RIGHT in the UK. There are a number of hoops to jump through first, ballots, notice to management etc, but the RIGHT to strike or take industrial action remains.

Would any strike action last a long time? Dunno. But as I've said before ONE shift (oe even part of one) per person at each NATS ACC would cause at least 25 DAYS disruption, and that's no including the Airfields.

Cost to the individual? Not a lot. Cost to the airlines...? Go figure, but remember it would be A whole lot more than just settling the pay claim.

Rgds BEX

[All Systems Go]

As a lowly engineer its a scary thought that this wonderful union we all now have would be split 2 or 3 ways - if they can't get what we want together what chance have they got with their collective "power" split into thirds? I personally think we need to all stand shoulder to shoulder now, especially as we are entering into the world of commercial pressures and the massive reductions in the numbers of staff.

I'm saying this cos as engineers we need the support of ATCOs and ATSAs to get the job done, not just to get pay rises. Imagine the problems and animosity that would unfortunatly result if all three said groups were in a different union, or had seperate negoitiations. We all need to stand together, stand tall, and most of all not relent.

[2 six 4]

Well said All systems. Now contact all your colleagues and alert them to the fact that they are likely to vote themselves into oblivion if they think of accepting this pay offer.

[sector8dear]

Bex

Most of your points accepted but when losing pay for industrial action, they don't count the days off. I have been on strike and my memory (admittedly a bit jaded these days) is losing effectively 1/18th or 1/19th of my monthly gross.

[Undercover]

Perhaps the pressure should be re-directed ? Like it or not, neither this "socialist" (if I could find more sarcastic quotation marks I'd use them) government or the AG have any responsibility or desire to fund anything relating to NATS. The AG "bought" (yes - those again) NATS but only NATS is liable for the debt and the wage bill... So, as ever, it's all down to the banks.

To digress slightly it's very much like the plight of ITV Digital... Carlton/Granada own it and reap any profits, but when it comes to stumping up to cover losses and protect the customer... no chance!!

If you're really looking for a hefty increase in salaries then maybe the first step should be to fight for re-nationalisation.. ? Then at least you can argue that those holding the purse actually have the ability to find the money from somewhere... as poor old, hands-tied, lame duck NATS do not!!

I hope the magic money tree is in season...
;)

[Exel]

Check out the poll running in the Aircrew Notices Misc Forum .

ARE CONTROLLERS GROSSLY UNDERPAID FOR SUCH A DEMANDING JOB ??

Wonder what the opinion is ??

[Flybywyre]

What's happened to the posts "posted" on the 7th May :confused:

[PPRuNe Radar]

No idea what happened to any posts made. Usually it's because the poster deleted them themselves.

Though as with any computer system, occasionally there are hiccups and things can get lost.

Nothing has been deleted by any PPRuNe admins.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Just to clear up a little confusion for some people which may explain missing posts in some cases.

Whenever anyone votes on a poll, this will show in the Forum as a post having been made at the time the vote is cast. Of course, since no text is typed, there will be no words which appear and thus some might assume something is missing.

This is just the way the software works and is nothing sinister.

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Any news on what came out of the union - management follow-up meeting that took place on Thursday?

[Findo]

We have had a staff notice to say the offer remains on the table for all staff and there is to be discussion of the ATCO sectional claim.

[Lieutenant Dan]

:)

[sector8dear]

I've tried to resist but I just can't...................

What amazing timing on the part of the esteemed ATCOs!

For bloody years we have crap pay rises and other shxx and do nothing!!!

Now we have 9/11, airlines struggling with many staff laid off, NATS income down 17%, (whether you like it or not, it is true!) and NOW of all time you finally choose to make a stand over a few % on an anual pay rise - while most people in aviation are not getting any rise, mainly a cut!

You lot really take the biscuit! Caramba:mad: :mad: :mad:

[BEXIL160]

9/11 was last year. The pay rise is for this year.

Airlines struggling? Some are, some aren't... no change there then.

NATS income down 17%? Depends how you juggle the figures. Worst case this is true. However according to NATS Chief Exec, NATS has no problem raising capital. What better thing to invest in than your most prized asset, your workforce.

BEX

[Lieutenant Dan]

Sector8dear, the whole '9/11' thing has had me humming and hawing about this issue as well.

But during the golden years of the '90s when traffic made an almost obligatory annual increase of 7% our pay didn't increase correspondingly, so if our pay isn't related to success, why should it be related to 'mis-fortune'?

[SPRATLEVEL300]

Can someone out there confirm whether the "struggling airline (see sector8dear's post) British Airways" paid it's staff a bonus in April?

[Expeditedescent]

Just to add fuel onto the rumour mill fire.........

I have been told at work that BA and BMI pilots are being offered pay rises of between 6-8%.............No idea how true this is, but if it is true...........makes you think, no?

Would be great if any pilots could confirm/deny this, as if true I believe it might add some weight to our argument, particularly as these two airlines are part owners, and of course let's not forget another, easyJet who don't seem to be short of cash at the moment either, nor Airtours, Britannia and Monarch who have all just completed very expensive new corporate image makeovers and liveries........these airlines short of money.....I don't think so !

[techofish]

What is our joint ATCO/ATSA/ATCE doing?

It is recommending that the the lower paid staff accept the offer, but the higher paid hold out for more!

Everybody needs/deserves a pay raise, after all the brown stuff, we've been put thru these past years. Any bets on whether Dicky E is getting a big bonus.

Are they representing the best interests of ALL their member?

What next everybody negotiates their our contact?

United we stand, divided we get walked all over by Airline Fat Cats

[radar707]

Anybody heard Brian Montague on the weekly message, he seems to think that this pay offer will represent a 9% increase over the 2 years (since the wage bill will go up 9% due annual increments etc) we are technically being offered 9% over 2 years.
Wasn't it Mark Twain who said lies damned lies and statistics???

This whole offer is a waste of time, traffic levels pre 911 were rising year on year, the regional airports have seen massive increases in movements (look at the PH figures)

It's time we made a stand and say to management that we DESERVE to be paid more.

A graduate working at Debenhams in London, 22 yrs old, no experience, no responsibility gets paid circa 30K.

A newly valid controller at a regional airport responsible for thousands of lives each day gets 32K (inc UHP)

Is this right???? I think not :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Buster the Bear]

So is he saying that all staff at the top of their respective grades will get 9%?

I DOUBT IT!

Part of what he is offering, the incremental grades, staff will get, if eligible, anyway!

My mate at TC will now be able to sponsor my food at Whipsnade now he is getting a 9% rise. Actually he can take me out for the day to visit my mates at Woburn!

[fish food]

As for there not being any money, how come the 'high-heid-yins' say one minute that NATS is skint, and the next that the settlement reached with EDS over the cancellation of the Oceanic FDPS contract was settled "well within" the budget NATS had set? I was never great at bean-couting, but if the cash set aside for the EDS litigation was not exhausted, where has the surplus disappeared to?:confused:

[160to4DME]

Of course, management in their generosity and deep understanding of the job will no doubt factor in all the extra blood sweat and tears expended during all those 'unexpected' faults/problems/manual modes; not only at LACC, but also the massive (and I mean MASSIVE) extra workload it puts on MACC/TC sectors, plus all the problems compounded delays create for those fine colleagues up in the room with a view. :rolleyes:

The extra work we have all put in during the last 3 months alone has been enough to make the current pay offer seem derisory in the extreme and totally inadequate.

It is an insult to our collective intelligence, and pretty well sums up exactly in what regard management hold us.

Enough of the vocal platitudes management; put the money where your mouth is for once. :mad:

[Grasscutter]

If brian Montague wants to give everyone, INCLUDING THE TOP OF THE PAYSCALE, a 9% pay rise over the next two years then thats OK by me:D :D :D Only joking

[Pheasant Plucker]

So; Mr Montague.

Or can I call you Brian?

As a shareholder in NATS, I would very much like to know how much you; personally, will be receiving in bonus payments, if we; your loyal staff, are daft enough to accept your crappy pay offer.

Care to enlighten us?

[160to4DME]

Good question...are bonuses and their amounts declared anywhere?
As shareholders, are we not legally entitled to be privvy to this data ?????

160

[Loki]

Somebody told me that Montague is leaving us. Anybody know owt?

[Take up the Hold]

LOKI

He is becoming HR Director with Eircom.

[BEXIL160]

To be replaced by whom???

Stephen Byers? :D :D At least he has a track record Hohoho.

NO, NO, I WAS joking, HONEST!

BEX:D

[Minesapint]

Sounds like a 'rolling head' jumped or pushed???

[tug3]

"rats" and "sinking ships" come to mind...

[Adamastor]

G'day all - sounds like you guys find yourself in the same rickety old boat that we're in Dunnunda. Is there an e-copy of your offer floating around somewhere for those that are interested in comparing the salient points? Cheers.

[viaEGLL]

Adamaster,

If you can find a e-copy that is totally self explanatory then please let prospect have a copy and forward it to there members!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Undercover]

Mr Montague left us some time ago now folks... Away back to Ireland for a nice new job. Also for family reasons I believe.

We have an "acting" replacement I believe... acting at what I'm not too sure.

[ATC Engineer]

Engineers and ATSAs can never earn as much as ATCOs

This theorem can now be supported by a mathematical equation based upon the following 2 postulates:

Postulate 1: Knowledge is Power
Postulate 2: Time is Money

As every engineer knows:
Power=Work/Time

and since:
Knowledge=Power

and
Time=Money

it is therefore true that
Knowledge = Work/Money

solving this equation for Money, we get:
Money= Work/Knowledge

Thus, as Knowledge approaches zero, Money approaches infinity, regardless of the amount of work done

QED

[Numpo-Nigit]

Damn!!!! I obviously know too much 'cos money is NOT approaching infinity!!! Could I be an engineer in a man's body?