Embraer Ops LCY

[Doors to Automatic]

I recently flew into LCY on an Embraer 190 and was fascinated by the approach as I have never flown in on a jet, let alone a modern one like this.

I was amazed at how smooth the approach was onto the Easterly runway. I always thought that aircraft went into a controlled nosedive given the 5 degree glide path, but this one seemed to maintain a very smooth nose-up profile with a gentle flare and firm but precise landing with a stop within the length of the original (3900ft) runway! The spoliers extended around 25% of the way as we passed over Canary Wharf and stayed extended until touchdown and it didn't seem like our v/s had increased - although obviously it had! I was surprised by the take-off and landing performance of the aircraft given that it is one of the largest to use LCY - although we were not full and only going to EDI.

I really enjoyed the flight and landing and wondered if there are any E-jet pilots on the forum who can give me some insight into the landing technique and modifications to he aircraft?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[AtomKraft]

The Steep approach mode is selectable on the 190 SR, the version used at LCY.

This causes the spoilers to part deploy once on the glideslope (5.5 degrees). Thus the engines are at a higher power setting should a go around be needed.
Steep App' also changes some of the GPWS modes to reduce nuisance warnings caused by the much increased rate of descent.
Also, disturbed airflow from the spoilers causes quite a heavy 'thumping' vibration at the rear of the aircraft.

The flare is a little different due to the rate of descent being nearly twice that on a normal 3 degree approach. You can't 'hold off' as you have to be down before the lights- so there is less time to finesse touchdowns.

The 190 SR (Short Runway or Slightly Reinforced) has the steep app mod and extra powerful engines to help improve take off performance.

It's tremendous fun, sometimes.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

AK, do you have to select the spoilers after you've selected steep approach or does it all happen automatically after steep approach is selected? Also can you get full spoiler deployment (not that you'd want to just wondering how the system works) at any speed once you've selected steep approach?

I flew the 146 and Q400 in to LCY but never the Embraer. Be interested to know what it was like.

[AtomKraft]

Spanders.

Unlike the RJ100, where you had to put the airbrake out once on the approach, in the 190SR you just arm the STEEP APP by pressing in a button.

This is an item in the descent checklist.

Having remembered to do that, the rest is done by the aircraft.
Of course, if you get sent around -or miss the lights!, you probably wont be doing the descent checklist before your next approach.

The spoiler lever stays closed during the steep aproach. But some of the panels will open- and modulate- automatically.

[galaxy flyer]

Must be a bit like the DLC on the L-1011, with a wink to 411A :cool:

[Doors to Automatic]

Thanks AK - do the spoliers retract for the flare & is that taken care of by the software? Also do you need to arm the spoliers for touchdown or again does the software take acre of it? By lights I am assuming you mean the little double set of lights at the end of the TDZ- is a Go Around mandatory if you miss them, even by an inch? Thanks again for the explanation :)

[AtomKraft]

Ahh. 411A. There's a name thats rarer on here these days.:sad:

Doors. The SOP is to go around if you miss the lights, end of.

I don't think the spoilers retract in the flare, but I'm always looking out the window at that bit- spoiler position is indicated on the EICAS. All the panels deploy fully on touchdown. Only some of them deploy on the steep app'.

There's no way to 'arm' the spoilers. They auto deploy when WOW says you've landed. You can use the airbrake lever in flight of course, for speed control and that also deploys the spoilers.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Cheers AK,
you probably wont be doing the descent checklist before your next approach.
Ha! Another go around sir? Sounds pretty Gucci apart from that bit. :ok:

The spoiler lever stays closed during the steep aproach. But some of the panels will open- and modulate- automatically.
So can you use the spoilers as an air brake below 185kts (was it that speed?) or is that restriction maintained?

[AtomKraft]

The speedbrake (which is the spoilers) is available at any speed- for obvious reasons.

Once you have Flap 2 out though, it is inhibited. You can pull the speed brake lever and all you'll get is 'spdbrk lever disagree' on the EICAS.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Might have been different on the 195 as I seem to remember 185kts or below would inhibit the spoilers. We used flap 1 and speed 180 so occasionally you'd lose the spoilers right when you needed them!

[AtomKraft]

Spanders.

You're still correct. Normally, when you select Flap 2, you dial in 180 Kt.

At this point (FLAP 2, 180 Kt) the spoilers/ speedbrake are no longer available to you.

It's because you have flap 2 though, not 'cause you're at 180 Kt. I think!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Calling FE Hoppy! :}

[AtomKraft]

OK Spanders.

I looked it up and if the speedbrake is selected out, the spoilers close when Flap 2 is selected...

Also if speed reduces below 180Kts, the spoilers close. ;)

[Dan Winterland]

''Must be a bit like the DLC on the L-1011''

DLC was there for controlling the final approach path without large pitch changes and not for (intentionally!) increasing the angle of the glide path. But anyone who remebers it will recall that the Tristar landing with DLC activated were often quite firm, so it did appear to!

[High Energy]

During the approach you can arm-and disarm the 'Steep App' function at any time. On the AVRO however, if you forgot to arm it before intercepting the glide you could not correct your mistake and quickly arm it.

On the Embraer the Multi Function Spoilers L/R 4&5 would act according to elevator input logic. Pull up, those spoilers would retract and vise versa. You're looking at a slight (2 or 3) degree nose up pitch once on the glide so you don't have to do a 'double flare' like on the AVRO. Just flare to a pitch of 5 degrees (max 10) and it's like any other touchdown. (not looking at certain other factors at play at LCY as well) The engines are spooled up to around 55% N1 IIRC on the glide. Obviously depending on certain factors like wx, weight etc.

In case of a go-around once the thrust levers advance to >70 degrees Thrust Lever Angle (TLA) the spoilers will automatically stow. No action required in the flightdeck, same like after landing as then they will also auto-stow with wheelspeed below 45 knots and if you advance the thrust levers to beyond 35 degrees TLA.

Reverse thrust is actually not needed in LCY as the stopping distance is more than sufficient, even for a heavy 190 and wet/contaminated runway. For official performance calculations reverse thrust is not taken into account.

Initially when the E190 started operating into LCY a PA as made before landing announcing to the pax that the experienced buffet caused by those spoilers during the approach was normal. Soon after they dropped that. That buffet is quite noticable when the aircraft is light and when sitting at the back.

[galaxy flyer]

DLC was similar--with Flaps 33, a set of spoilers partially extended. Initial pitch up movement on the stick UP caused the spoilers to move toward retract; pitch down input caused the spoilers to further extend. These spoiler movements caused the path the steepen or shallow, respectively. Aircraft pitch did not change until there was courser pitch inputs.

The reason for firm L1011 landings was when the PF tried to "roll" it on with slight forward stick--the spoilers extended trying to steepen the glide path--which happened until impact.

[Doors to Automatic]

Very Interesting accounts - thanks everyone. High Energy, do you happen to know at what angle the Avro RJ flies in? I am guessing significantly nose-down compared to the nose-up of the E-Jet. My only experience is a landing around 10 years ago in a Dornier 328 - I am sure that was a lot more of a nose-dive!

I can vouch for the E190s short ground run; in fact I have never seen anything quite like it. One wonders how quickly it would stop if the brakes were hit hard!

Out of interest is there any significant difference in take-off and landing performance between the E190SR and the E170?

[safetypee]

Re “… what angle the Avro RJ flies …”
The BAe146/Avro RJ have an unusual characteristic that when flying configured for approach and landing and maintaining Vref / Vref+10, the pitch angle approximates to the flight path. Thus at LCY on a 5.5 deg GS the fuselage angle would be 5.5 deg nose down.

[lucianosato12]

Hi, I am in Brazil making a paper to the university, and have focus on the London City Airport Steep Approach procedure with the EMB190SR, but i couldn't find any official manuals of that specific aircraft to give the necessary embasement to the work. Can someone help, with any official stuff please?

Thank you.

[High Energy]

Hi Lucianosato12,

What exactly are you looking for? I've flown the E190SR from LCY.