IMC/ILS self practice

[Pass your message]

I'm currently completing my IMC. I have completed some hooded ILS approaches into EGMC. In between IMC lessons I regularly take my 19 year old son up for a simple potter about. Question / What do people think / can I / when doing the latter book and fly a radar vectored ILS approach into EGMC non blind/ hooded.just eyes down for me , eyes out for him and the occasional glance up / out for me to get a visual reference for localiser / glide slope / actual reference? Insurance consequences in a club airplane?

[Pace]

EGMC Southend :) Was in there today with the Citation I fly ;) Very nice new reception area very plush ;)
Today was good weather a bit bumpy but wind easterly about 20 degrees off the runway.
Some idiot in a Hawk fast jet cut across the ILS making the controller give me an immediate 50 degree left turn off the ILS with vectors all the way back onto the ILS.
Annoying as I was running late as it was :{

Yes do practice on a visual circuit in VMC. It gives you the chance to compare the ILS indications against visual and that in itself will make you more comfortable for when you cannot see.

Do tell the controller what you are doing and as long as traffic allows I am sure they will help.
Do confirm to them that you will be flying visually for solo practice

Pace

[A and C]

The law says of you are qualified and under the hood for practice you have to have a competent observer to warn of any dangers, most people took this to be another pilot, I would take a mate of mine who was an RAF flight engineer on the basis that if he s OK to sit on the center seat of a C130 keeping four engines running and helping with the lookout when the aircraft was traveling down a Welsh valley at 230 Kt and 200 ft he was good enought to keep me out of trouble in a DR400 !

[Pace]

A&C

Competent observer? That sounds like a detailed piece of law:ugh: Competent in what ?
The fact that you are on the ILS under control of a controller means you are very unlikely to crash into someone else. Is the Controller a competent observer???
He has not stated that he is going to fly the ILS under the hood Ie maybe down to his minima but visually flying the ILS looking up and down.

If that is the law it needs to be re written as it would not stand up in a bowl of thick custard never mind a court ;)

Pace

[Level Attitude]

P y m

You say you are "completing" your IMC Rating,

You may already be highly competent, but you are not qualified to fly IFR
and, I would suggest, you are not qualified to fly an ILS - therefore you should not book one.

I would suggest you request a visual "Straight in Approach" from six miles.
Both you and the controller then know what is going to happen (you
may use the ILS for guidance but it is still your absolute responsibility
to "see and avoid" - and if you need to go around you must follow the
visual procedure not the IFR Missed Approach Procedure.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Last time I looked this up, my recollection is that under the hood you need a safety pilot, without a hood you just need a "competent observer", eg a 19yo son with reasonable mental faculties and eyesight would do fine.

So the answer to your question is "yes", but tell ATC (and perhaps the club from whom you're hiring the plane, if you're really concerned that there might be an insurance issue) what you're doing. I put "self-positioned ILS if convenient" or somesuch on the booking out form then ask politely, nobody has said "no" to me yet. And I don't look out of the window until minima, unless ATC or the observer alert me to something I should be looking for/at.

[Pace]

non blind/ hooded.just eyes down for me , eyes out for him and the occasional glance up / out for me to get a visual reference for localiser / glide slope

He has not said he intends to fly serious hooded and blind appproaches!
From what I can tell he wants to fly a visual ILS to practice flying the needles while looking out and comparing what he sees on the instruments to what he sees visually. He has a competent observer in his son who can be his eyes for him for the short periods that he is looking at the instruments in an environment where he is protected from other traffic.

An excellent idea for improving his understanding and familiarity but be clear with ATC what you want to do.

Also MSFS is a good training platform if you have access to one or buy some time on a sim.

Pace

[Level Attitude]

in an environment where he is protected from other traffic

VFR in VMC ouside of Controlled Airspace. How is he protected?

Especially as (perfectly legal):
Some idiot in a Hawk fast jet cut across the ILS

Legality of an unqualified person "flying an ILS" (as opposed to flying an approach which
happens to be co-incidental with the ILS and occasionally referring to the needles)?

[mm_flynn]

Two points (in the UK)
1 - an instrument procedure like an ILS can be flown VFR or IFR
2 - in G there can be conflicting VFR or IFR traffic, in D there can be conflicting VFR traffic which is called if you are IFR and which is down to you to see if you are VFR (remember point 1)

The G-EYES accident at Coventry shows these two points.

To the question, yes flying a pratice ILS head down (but not hooded) VFR with you 19 year old son as the competent observer is legal and sensible. Once you have your IMC you can due it under IFR in class D as well.

As a note - under a hood or behind screens you actually need a safety pilot (there is a bunch of detail around currency, class of licence, ratings, medical, etc. which IIRC is slightly more lenient than the rules for being P1)

[Whopity]

Simulated Instrument Flight is subject to Rule 23Simulated instrument flight
23 (1) An aircraft shall not be flown in simulated instrument flight conditions unless the
conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the aircraft is fitted with dual controls which are functioning properly;
(b) an additional pilot (in this rule called a 'safety pilot') is carried in a second control
seat of the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the
aircraft; and
(c) if the safety pilot's field of vision is not adequate, both forwards and to each side
of the aircraft, a third person, who is a competent observer, occupies a position
in the aircraft from which his field of vision makes good the deficiencies in that
of the safety pilot, and from which he can readily communicate with the safety
pilot.
Instrument approaches are covered by Rule 24Practice instrument approaches
24 (1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United
Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in
paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight
is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and
(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a
competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an
adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the
aircraft.

[Pace]

There you go he is covered flying with his 19 year old son as an observer as long as he informs ATC of his intentions and they approve

Pace

[BEagle]

For the avoidance of any doubt, the ANO interpretation of 'simulated' IF is as follows:

'simulated instrument flight conditions' means a flight during which mechanical or optical devices are used in order to reduce the field of vision or the range of visibility from the cockpit of the aircraft;

[tmmorris]

Does it define 'practice instrument approach'? I've always taken that to mean VFR ie if I am solo, an instrument approach has to be IFR even in VMC.

Tim

[P.Pilcher]

If you want to improve your competance in flying ILS approaches e.t.c. then invest in a computer flight simulator. Even in the earliest days of the late 80's when the first realistic ones came out, I have seen examples of computer practice helping inexperienced pilots flying ILS approaches to I.R. standards. In one case, I suggested to a computer enthusiast who knew nothing about flying that he practice using one of these early flight sims. Then I put him in a C 152. He could fly the thing as though he had at least 5 hours experience. Then I gave him an ILS approach to do. He flew a radar vectored one down to 200' AGL without difficulty!

P.P.

[mm_flynn]

Does it define 'practice instrument approach'? I've always taken that to mean VFR ie if I am solo, an instrument approach has to be IFR even in VMC.

Tim

I am not aware there is a definition. The key thing to remember is you have to look out the window and avoid any traffic unless the visibility is so bad you won't see anything. In class G IFR or VFR there is no guarantee someone isn't in your way, unknown to or uncalled by ATC. In class D in VMC the control doesn't need to separate you from VFR traffic just call it for you to visually avoid it.

My interpretation of 'pratice instrument approach' is where you consciously ignore the outside world to fly down to minimums even after you are visual with the surface or able to hold attitude visually (ie over a cloud deck). Flying it IFR or VFR (assuming you are in VMC) doesn't make a big difference in your obligation to look out the window and avoid conflicting traffic. A 'real' instrument approach is conducted under IFR and the pilot suitably divides their attention between the instruments and the outside view in such a way they can see and avoid other traffic within reason given the weather (I.e gin clear they are mostly eyes out , 020 OVC 850 RVR eye mostly in to DH, RVR 600 George flys pilot monitors George and outside view the whole way down.

[peterh337]

I was once told by some instructor at Manston that I should not have flown the ILS in there, because I was solo and the wx was not bad enough for an ILS. He said I should have had an observer because it was a practice approach!

Perhaps his day job is an ISO9000 quality manager :ugh:

[BEagle]

I was once told by some instructor at Manston that I should not have flown the ILS in there, because I was solo and the wx was not bad enough for an ILS.

Quite right too! If you wanted to fly a practice approach, you should have followed the law as stated in the ANO.

But why would anyone otherwise bug.ger about playing airliners on long ILS approaches when the weather is good enough to join visually?

[mm_flynn]

BEagle, your post seems to imply that pilots arriving on an IFR flight plan solo should as a matter of course cancel IFR and position visually. Why on earth would you say that (sometimes it makes sense but to imply it is the law one can not execute an ILS single pilot above some specified minima is silly.)

If I am looking to cut minutes off the arrival and there is no other traffic fine, it is a perfectly sensible plan. However, several times I have cancelled IFR looking for a quick visual ahead of a jet rather than fly some long procedure behind him and suddenly I am sent to orbit low level waiting for the controller to deign to fit me in rather than just stay in train with the other arriving traffic - and it took more time than just executing the arrival!

[Fuji Abound]

No, i think beagle is saying fly a practice approach in vmc if you wish bit if it is vfr declare it as a practice approach, that way everone knows what you are about.

[mm_flynn]

So is any approach in VMC a practice approach or only if you choose to be VFR? Does that mean descending through a layer base 3000 feet suggestion is for a solo pilot to cancel IFR once in VMC?

[peterh337]

I am 100% with mm_flynn on this. There is no obligation to either transition to a visual approach (an IFR procedure) or to cancel IFR altogether, just because the conditions are/become VMC.

[tmmorris]

Good question, because if you are right, I will struggle to maintain currency on IAPs as I often fly solo.

Tim

[Fuji Abound]

No, of course you can fly an ils in vmc, i think the point being made is simply if it is a practice approach then say so.

I think beagle then goes on to say that if its wall to wall vmc why would you fly an ils other than as a declared practice approach. That assertion is a matter of opinion but i am sure we can see his point.

What is gained by declaring it is a practice approach? That is another debate.

[BEagle]

Flying IFR solo outside CAS in 8/8 VMC very probably reduces your capacity to maintain a safe lookout. Which is why practising instrument approaches is regulated accordingly.

Take the case of Manston with its IAPs in Class G airspace on a nice, sunny cloudless day. As the UK AIP states:

Within Class G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance and terrain clearance, and they should consider service provision to be constrained by the unpredictable nature of this environment.

So without a competent observer keeping a safe lookout flying on instruments in such circumstances, or even watching an autopilot doing so, exposes you and others to collision risk. A Hawk flying VFR ouside the Manston ATZ may quite legitimately cross the ILS approach, but would be rather stupid to do so where the distance from touchdown and transit height would be close to the assumed height expected to be flown by inbound ILS traffic, particularly if not in RT contact with the aerodrome at the time.

There is no need to 'cancel IFR' in order to continue visually. If you don't, it will simply mean that your flight will continue to be regulated accordingly:

The fact that a pilot reports that he is flying in VMC does not in itself constitute cancellation of an IFR FPL. Unless cancellation action is taken, the flight will continue to be regulated in relation to other IFR traffic.

Note 'in relation to other IFR traffic'. Not VFR!

[Pace]

Often we keep locked onto the ILS for passenger comfort even in good VMC!
If it is good VMC then there are a number of options
cancel IFR and request a visual join.
Ask for vectors to visual
Ask for a tighter intercept
Usually when flying IFR it's more about reducing track miles to touchdown and hence time and cost.

One caution on leaving IFR and an ILS is to be very sure that it is VMC to touchdown as many have been fooled into doing so only to run into scud cloud or unseen poor vis

Pace

[BEagle]

Pace, if that's 'we' flying multi-pilot CAT (or corporate), then that's rather a different kettle of fish, as compared with a private pilot flying solo IFR in good VMC.....

[peterh337]

... and GPS is illegal for primary navigation.

[S-Works]

Out of curiosity Peter, please show me the law you refer to?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What is gained by declaring it is a practice approach?
ATC know they can ask you politely whether you mind doing a visual approach instead if someone else needs the ILS more than you do?

[tmmorris]

If it's good VMC, why would they?

Tim

[2 sheds]

Gert (I'll omit the rude part)

As a controller, I would not entirely agree with that; it's up to ATC to facilitate what everyone requires, even if that entails "expect ... in ... minutes due traffic" - assuming that you have made the request in good time, of course!

2 s

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Wot I mean is, if I'm just wanting an ILS for practice on the way back from somewhere, and it doesn't matter very much whether I do it or not, I don't want to get in the way of some else whose main purpose of the flight is using the ILS, say instrument training or test, or a test flight, or a commercial flight whose SOPs require them to use the ILS, or whatever.

So I will negotiate with ATC that I'll take an ILS if it's not going to hold anyone else up, otherwise I'll join visually. And I'll certainly junk the ILS and join visually if the alternative is holding!

[Capn Kangaroo]

Its quite simple ...book in VFR (if you need to PPR)

Call them up on the radio and announce your presence and request an ILS (vectored, procedural or whatever) for currency.

They will nearly always respond in the affirmative and sometimes enquire if you wish to switch to IFR. If you stay VFR then you are responsible for letting them know if an instruction would take you IFR (and saying unable to comply) otherwise keep a good look out and fly the ILS.

Remember you are ultimately responsible for ensuring clear separation from other aircraft unless you are in Class A in the UK.

Don't try and do this outside of the UK ... but do relax and enjoy.

Have 2 sets of Mk I eyeballs in the cockpit helps with all VFR flight. If you're under the hood then the passenger needs to be rated to fly the aircraft you're in (at least under FAA regs which I'm more familiar with) ..

[Local Variation]

But it's not currency as the OP stated he has not yet got his rating.

Surely the case here is to speak and consult with the Chief FI and if deemed viable to then discuss with ATC prior to undertaking said practice. Otherwise....

....Requesting an ILS whilst then advising 'unable to comply' with vectoring that takes away in sight of surface, will surely leave the Controller unsure as to the vailidity of the request for an ILS approach. Potentially then resulting in a post landing set of wtf questions from all concerned.

[mm_flynn]

????
It is routine to conduct practice approaches (including ILSs) under VFR (which makes the controllers life easier) and the controller would fully expect the pilot to stay in VMC and tell the controller if an instruction could not be executed while remaining in VMC.

You guys are making hard work of this question.

[2 sheds]

You guys are making hard work of this question.
True!
...practice approaches (including ILSs) under VFR (which makes the controllers life easier)
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that!

2 s