Air France A320 at Marseille on Mar 11th 2013

[DavidWoodward]

Sorry if this has already been posted. Don't want to start a fight but there are a few similar incidents like this popping up.

Incident: Air France A320 at Marseille on Mar 11th 2013, approach to stall during visual approach (http://avherald.com/h?article=45fc9192&opt=0)

[Wave off]

The question is not if they are about to have another accident, but when.

[Piltdown Man]

As far as I am concerned it shows that AF have a good reporting culture. Pilots who are not afraid to say something strange has happened. Good on them. David - were you trying to make a different point?

[WHYEYEMAN]

Tricky runway that.

[FBW390]

Another serious incident with Air France...True MRS visual approach is challenging... But AF again!!!:yuk:

[crispy banana]

Air France A343 at Paris on Mar 13th 2012, intercepted mirror glide slope, large pitch oscillations and approach to stall (http://avherald.com/h?article=45f1317a)

[DavidWoodward]

As far as I am concerned it shows that AF have a good reporting culture. Pilots who are not afraid to say something strange has happened. Good on them. David - were you trying to make a different point?

No, I was not. I did mention that I don't want to start a fight as I know that things on here can be taken too far and was just highlighting another incident.

[DozyWannabe]

Note that others have already tried to bring a completely different incident that happened over a year ago into the thread - are they trying to confuse matters?

[Gretchenfrage]

Airbus groundhog day!

[Clandestino]

PPRuNe groundhog day.

[Dufo]

Relax.. in modern, SMS-driven airline world, this is called 'just culture'. As long as it's reported to safety department, it's ok and safe. There there guys, you screwed up but you reported it so you can go back and play again.
:E

[Rwy in Sight]

At least AF flight deck crews appear to be learning their way around stall unlike their colleagues around the TASIL point.


I would fly with them any day if the price is right and no star alliance flight is comparable.

[Dan Winterland]

As it should be!

As for the incident, Alpha Prot activated - the aircraft didn't stall (it won't!)and no one was hurt.

The protections worked - just as they should!

[CaptainProp]

As far as I am concerned it shows that AF have a good reporting culture. Pilots who are not afraid to say something strange has happened. Good on them. David - were you trying to make a different point?

That sounds like it could come from someone within AF...or someone that does not know how FDM systems work. Anything even close to an event like this would have been picked up by the FDM system and sent off to the airline the second the aircraft touches down. It has nothing to do with "good reporting culture".

[EcamSurprise]

Perhaps they meant that not all the incidents get out from the airlines?

[CaptainProp]

Could be, but in my opinion incidents are not handled better because they end up in the news. It's all about how its dealt with internally and the questions you raise within your organisation. What can we learn from this? What can we do to prevent the same mistakes from being made again? Is this something that warrants changes in our SOPs? Changes in how we train our people? etc etc.

Not saying these things should not be shared within the industry so that we can all learn from them, but that has nothing to do with media.

[jcjeant]

Could be, but in my opinion incidents are not handled better because they end up in the newsMaybe they will be handled better as this end up in the BEA investigation work !
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/2013/2013.semaine.12.pdf
They open an investigation for serious incident

[Capn Bloggs]

Incident grave
My French isn't all that flash. Is that where they put all the dead incidents?

[kick the tires]

As for the incident, Alpha Prot activated - the aircraft didn't stall (it won't!)and no one was hurt

What a throw away line that is Dan!

For alpha prot to work, the aircraft has to be seriously mismanaged and non monitored, neither of which should EVER happen.

[CptRegionalJet]

Exactly,
Latest I heard is that Airbus A/C should be flown without making use of protections:ooh:

[CaptainProp]

Maybe they will be handled better as this end up in the BEA investigation work !

Sure, but an incident like this should always end up being investigated.
No extra points for that.

[Jonty]

As for the incident, Alpha Prot activated - the aircraft didn't stall (it won't!)and no one was hurt.

Yes it will! Its quotes like that in training that pilots believe, we then end up with stall related incidents.

The Airbus family are aeroplanes, they WILL stall just like any other aeroplane. The laws of physics are not suspended just because it says Airbus on the side.

[mnttech]

As for the incident, Alpha Prot activated - the aircraft didn't stall (it won't!)and no one was hurt.
This mindset is huge part of the problem. Pilots are not pilots any more, but "managers" :mad: Fly the darn airplane, from the moment you push back to the time the chocks are in place.

[Trim Stab]

Go-arounds are not unusual at MRS. It has a habit of throwing up surprises at every approach.

[Clandestino]

Latest I heard is that Airbus A/C should be flown without making use of protectionsSince 1988 if you are referring to FBW models. Even before that for 300/310.

[CaptainProp]

ACCP, chill out... "Sounds like", never claimed Piltdown worked for AF. But if he knows how FDM systems work and how the data is processed and reported then his comments are even more of a surprise.

"....not afraid to say that something strange has happened". Nothing strange here, just disconnect the A/THR, forget that you disconnected it, and then continue the approach. That's the only "strange" thing that happened here. Either that exact scenario, or in combination with abrupt pitch up when realising that they were a bit low on profile or had reached a level off altitude.

Lets see what comes out of the investigation and then we'll talk more about it.

[jcjeant]

Why Air France should be banned from non-EU skies | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/03/13/why-air-france-should-be-banned-from-non-eu-skies/?wpmp_switcher=mobile)
For an account of appalling flight safety standards in a major airline (http://avherald.com/h?article=45f1317a&opt=0), a French air safety agency (BEA) report into a seriously botched approach to Paris Charles de Gaulle airport by an Air France A340 a year ago today is hard to beat.Air France blacklisted outside Europe is that possible?
Google*Traduction (http://translate.google.be/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.mediapart.fr%2Fblog%2Fherve-labarthe%2F290313%2Fban-air-france-now&act=url)
The lack of reaction of the crew is particularly shocking, especially since it was to prepare an automatic approach with
Auto Land CAT III, because the visibility was less than 400 m (LVP in force). However, this approach must always be a stabilized approach at 10 Nm and 3000 '(Easy 10x3) ie gear released, FULL configuration (flaps and slats) and approach speed gained. This last point is part of the CAT III qualification

[BOAC]

Why Air France should be banned from non-EU skies | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/03/13/why-air-france-should-be-banned-from-non-eu-skies/?wpmp_switcher=mobile)

Why stop at 'non-EU' skies? We need to ask seriously if they are fit to operate at all. I bet KLM are pleased........................

[Rail Engineer]

I bet KLM are pleased.......................Trouble is that since they merged into a joint operation, severing the tie is not going to be that easy.

KLM made a big mistake in ever getting together with AF, and still runs the risk of being dragged down as a result of the lack of professionalism that AF continue to demonstrate in comparison, no doubt not helped by the usual gallic arrogance of considering themselves better than anyone else.

[7478ti]

Another apparent approach and landing event, if not even a near accident?? When will operators, Authorities, ANSPs, and OEMs finally realize this is completely unnecessary,now with RNP and GLS potentially available for every runway end on which jettransports operate. To continue this "non-precision" or even "visual approach" madness, or even sustained use of flawed and unnecessarily expensive ILS, as in the A340 "event" at LFPG on March 13, 2012 (see Flight International19-25 March 2013, page 15) with air transport jet aircraft, is not only unnecessary, ... it now borders on being irresponsible. We can do much better,much safer, much more efficiently, AT LOWER fully allocated cost. We should even do it for use in visual conditions, as for preventing the fatal A300 crash in good weather at Nagoya years ago. It is long past time to fully implement having RNP and GLS based paths available globally, for use 100% of the time, except perhaps for some basic skills training, in simulators.

[Clandestino]

Since we're in "hang 'em high" mode, we might consider banning the airline whose pilots took off in their T7 from the intersection from which no takeoff was to be attempted.

Fortunately, aeronautical powers that be won't listen to us even as we indignantly accuse them of being ignorant/ineffective/corrupt. I do expect comprehensive report on the problematic culture of certain airline in next 12-18 months so rest of us may avoid falling into same trap but outright banning - nay.

[rogerg]

It is long past time to fully implement having RNP and GLS based paths available globally, for use 100% of the time, except perhaps for some basic skills training, in simulators.

I think it will be a long time before a lot of the world will be equipped for this high tech stuff. I expect that NPA will be around for some time. Better make sure that pilots can do them!.

[PLovett]

Another apparent approach and landing event, if not even a near accident?? When will operators, Authorities, ANSPs, and OEMs finally realize this is completely unnecessary,now with RNP and GLS potentially available for every runway end on which jettransports operate. To continue this "non-precision" or even "visual approach" madness, or even sustained use of flawed and unnecessarily expensive ILS, as in the A340 "event" at LFPG on March 13, 2012 (see Flight International19-25 March 2013, page 15) with air transport jet aircraft, is not only unnecessary, ... it now borders on being irresponsible. We can do much better,much safer, much more efficiently, AT LOWER fully allocated cost. We should even do it for use in visual conditions, as for preventing the fatal A300 crash in good weather at Nagoya years ago. It is long past time to fully implement having RNP and GLS based paths available globally, for use 100% of the time, except perhaps for some basic skills training, in simulators.

I would prefer that the flight crew on aircraft on which I fly are trained appropriately to be able to fly the aircraft whatever the approach rather than to restrict the way the aircraft can be flown to compensate for their incompetence. I want them to cope with whatever they are faced with.

What is irresponsible is the level of competence on a flight deck is constantly been eroded by airline management and in many cases a toxic culture of arrogance.

[karam]

its quite simple...airbus sucks....its a flawed aircraft and constantly has faults with it.
its a flying laptop that needs to be reset all the time
i've flown both and there isnt a single person i know who has flown the boeing before that actually enjoys the bus.

[A4]

Thanks for that indepth insight Karam :hmm: I've flown the Bus for 15 years and to say it "needs resetting all the time" and "constantly has faults" is, in my experience, hogwash. Sure, resets are required from time to time - it is a highly automated aircraft but no more than a 777 or 787 (which is perfect.......:E )

As for saying it's flawed - I disagree. It's operated with a different philosophy but, like ANY aircraft, it is encumbent upon the crew to UNDERSTAND how to operate it in NORMAL and ABNORMAL scenarios. If you know what you're doing then the Airbus is no different to a Boeing, MD, Embraer....... if you're not up to the task you shouldn't be up the front. simple.

As for previous Boeing drivers saying they don't enjoy the Airbus, in my experience the VAST MAJORITY say that for a working environment in terms of noise, comfort, ergonomics and somewhere to sit for 10+ hours the Airbus absolutely destroys the B737 by comparison.

Just my experience / views.

[7478ti]

Contrary to the assertion that RNP is far away,... it isn't. Aircraft involved in many if not even most of these recent troubling approach events (e.g., A320s) are ALREADY equipped well enough to start using RNP. The issue is the obsolete and faulty and bureaucratic and excessively complicated authority RNP criteria typically still being applied, ...NOT the need for additional aircraft equippage, just to get started using RNP. Yes, RNP capability will evolve with time, and with future generations of autoflight systems (as are now being delivered by ALL Toulouse and Seattle built aircraft), ...but RNP could even be used RIGHT NOW for these aircraft involved in these troubling events. It could be done just as we did Eagle CO back in 1991 for the B757. Hence, there is no more need for using NPAs today any more than there is for going back to train the use of the "4-course LF range" or airway light beacon code sequences. For any jets built after about the mid '80s, these air transport events and accidents are completely unnecessary in an era of RNP.

[Piltdown Man]

...an event like this would have been picked up by the FDM system and sent off to the airline the second the aircraft touches down.

That's not necessarily correct is it? There are systems that send the data off immediately, some wait until shutdown, others need flash card removal and so on. So, which system did this aircraft have? And was it working on the day?

[cosmiccomet]

My dear friends,
You can fly a Visual Approach using the FMGSs creating a CF at 1,500 ft AGL.
The glide presentation at the PFD is a red DOT, it is very similar to an ILS glide slope.
So the problem is not the type of the approach...the real problem is what a pilot do after disconnecting the Autopilot...

[PJ2]

PMFJI, PM, but you're right, that isn't a correct statement regarding FDM. Each airline and even each fleet type potentially has their own FDM arrangements. I know airlines that are satisfied with sampling and accepting the data statistically, (averages, I guess), and I know more enlightened airlines which examine their data daily from all fleet types. "WGL", Wireless Ground Link is cell-phone technology that does indeed transmit flight data the moment the aircraft docks at the gate. Other programs must either remove the optical disc or a PCMCIA card or download the data from a mini-QAR. The time between FDM downloads can be as little as minutes after the flight to two weeks depending upon which of the airline's destinations has equipment that can read the cards or discs and who's trained by the airline to do the job at those destinations. So you're right - it's not as simple as one may believe it to be.