CAA/JAA/EASA Hassle: Why not do FAA PPL instead?

[The Gold Member]

I’ve been studying forthe Air Law exam for a while and had intention of sitting the exam in the next few weeks; however, with all these JAA/EASA changes I start asking myself if I should consider an FAA licence instead. Now they are changing from 7 to 9 exams. Then they require 6 sittings –if I don’t finish in 6 sittings then I have to sit all exams again. The CAA doesn’t clarify what will happen if we pass an exam today (still JAA structure) and then later the EASA transitions takes place. :confused: Therefore, I came with the following idea, and would like your opinion:

Why not go to the US and engage in a FAA PPL instead?

FAA PPL is valid in the UK, so it would not be a problem to fly here (I’m not British but Im an EU national). It would be cheaper, quicker,more standardised, and at the end of the day I would be able to finish the theory without the hassle of 6 exam sittings.

I was always going to fly to the US and do my JAA PPL there. This would make it even easier. Later,with 100 hours, I would anyway be able to sit the EASA exams at my own pace if I feel like doing it.

What do you think of this idea? Does it make sense? Or am I forgetting any important variable here?

Appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

[Level Attitude]

I was always going tofly to the US and do my JAA PPL there
Then combine both and get an FAA PPL and an EASA PPL

[BackPacker]

FAA PPL is valid inthe UK

Technically not quite correct. The FAA PPL is recognized by the UK authorities, under the ANO, as a valid license for private flight on a G-reg. That (implicit) recognition is valid worldwide, so you can fly a G-reg in, say, France.

However, EASA is even going to exert a measure of control over FAA licensed pilots flying N-regs in the EU, so I would not be surprised if this implicit recognition will be ended somewhere in the near future. Maybe you can then still fly an Annex-II aircraft, maybe not. I have no idea.

But in any case, I would not see this as an alternative for having an EASA PPL.

I do however endorse the advice of LA: If you're going to the US for a JAA/EASA PPL, get an FAA PPL at the same time.

[The Gold Member]

Thanks for your reply Level Attitude. I thought about that (FAA + JAA). However I wouldn't like to waste time stitting 7 exams and later being told that these are not valid anymore. Also, it may take much longer to take both PPLs (my plan is to stay 1 month in the US)...

[TractorBoy]

Technically not quite correct. The FAA PPL is recognized by the UK authorities, under the ANO, as a valid license for private flight on a G-reg. That (implicit) recognition is valid worldwide, so you can fly a G-reg in, say, France.



Is this correct? I always thought you could only fly a G-reg aircraft in the UK on an FAA licence as it had been given special approval. If you wanted to fly outside the UK, you need a N-reg

UK FAA Flight Training - News archive and links (http://www.iflyfaa.com/news.html)

[BackPacker]

Article 62 of the ANO:

Deeming a non-United Kingdom flight crew licence valid
62.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (2) applies to any licence which authorises the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is granted—
(a) under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a
JAA licence; or
(b) under the law of a relevant overseas territory.
(2) Subject to paragraph (4), for the purposes of this Part, such a licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to such a licence if it authorises the holder to act as a student pilot only.
(4) A licence deemed valid under paragraph (2) does not entitle the holder—
(a) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial
air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight for which the holder receives
remuneration for services as a member of the flight crew; or
(b) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace
in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any
instruction in flying.

However, this is from CAP804:

3 Requirements
Article 62 of the Air Navigation Order grants a permanent general validation to all non-UK licence holders to allow them to fly UK-registered aircraft, provided that the flight is for non-commercial purposes and the licence holder does not receive remuneration for the flight. The EASA Aircrew Regulation will override Article 62 in respect of EASA aircraft being flown for non-commercial purposes from 8 April 2014.

CAP804 goes on detailing the exact requirements for a validation of a foreign license under EASA, but in any case it specifies that the validation will not exceed one year. So for all practical purposes you cannot fly an EASA Annex I aircraft, even on the G-register, on an FAA license anymore from 8 april 2014 onwards. Unless you go through the validation process and then, at best, can extend this date to 8 april 2015.

(But since EASA doesn't concern itself with "Annex II" aircraft at the moment, you can probably continue flying those on an FAA license for now.)

----------

The UK FAA article that you linked to is taking a few shortcuts and is outright wrong on certain counts. This is the most important one:

Article 33 of the Chicago Convention really reads:
Certificates of airworthiness and certificates of competency and licenses issued or rendered valid by the contracting State in which the aircraft is registered, shall be recognized as valid by the other contracting States, ...
(my bold)

So if the UK renders an FAA certificate valid (which it does under article 62 of the ANO) then that FAA certificate is valid for flight on a G-reg worldwide. (I'm sure there are a few countries in the world that do not implement the ICAO recommendations in full, so "worldwide" will need to be taken with a grain of salt. But in such countries you're probably not welcome with a G-reg even if you have a UK-issued license. Or an N-reg and an FAA license.)

Furthermore, the UK FAA article still refers to the "two out of three rule" which simply doesn't work. Even if you follow their own examples you find that "two out of three" is not always correct. Furthermore, this *implicit* validation of a non-local license for private flight on a local-reg aircraft is something that happens (to the best of my knowledge) only in the UK. In other countries there is an *explicit* validation process. (E.g. US FAR 61.75)

(Here's another example where the two out of three rule does not work: CAA license, N-reg aircraft, US airspace.)

[172driver]

Later,with 100 hours, I would anyway be able to sit the EASA exams at my own pace if I feel like doing it.

Assuming the 100-hour conversion route still works under EASA, this is, IMHO, the way to go. Just do the FAA license and then convert. Gives you two standalone tickets and much broader experience.

This also - and quite importantly - gives you access to many more schools in the US, not just the handful of JAA/EASA approved ones.

[piperboy84]

However, EASA is even going to exert a measure of control over FAA licensed pilots flying N-regs in the EU

Questions if you would be so kind

1.What type of "control" is being proposed/planned?
2. N-regs in the EU" is the UK presently considered part of the EU for aircraft/pilot issues or is it still the CAA/ UK Department for Transport calling the shots.

Reason for asking is I'm an FAA PPL flying a N reg and enjoy my current set up of dealing the UK Dept. for Transport for training issues and the FAA for licensing, registration and airworthiness stuff. Both groups make things simple,and I hope it does not change any time soon.

[BackPacker]

You might want to ask Peter H for the details, but as fas as I know EASA is going to require that pilots who own/operate N-regs in Europe, and who are resident in the EU, have a valid EASA license for the type of aircraft/operation.

I don't know the details, but it looks like it's part of some political wheeling and dealing to force the FAA into accepting some sort of bilateral agreement with EASA for mutual recognition of licenses. Or something like that.

[Johnm]

I don't know the details, but it looks like it's part of some political wheeling and dealing to force the FAA into accepting some sort of bilateral agreement with EASA for mutual recognition of licenses. Or something like that.

There has been a stated intention in respect of mutual recognition for both maintenance issues and licensing issues. Unfortunately the FAA is concerned about EASA's competence and EASA is arrogant in its relations with the FAA ( and anyone else for that matter) so progress is a bit limited to say the least. EASA still intends to insist that any citizen of the EU operating in the EU has an EASA licence if they wish to fly EASA aircraft, irrespective of registration. It is anticipated that there will be a conversion route.

[The Gold Member]

Thank you all for your input. I think I'll probably do FAA first. Less hassle with legislation. Later I'll convert into EASA. Cheers!

[S-Works]

You will not be able to fly an EASA CofA after 8 April 2015 without dual licences as I understand it.....

[Whopity]

Correct. You will also need a FCC Radiotelephone Certificate (http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=rr) to use the FAA licence outside the USA something many are unaware of!

[piperboy84]

Correct. You will also need a FCC Radiotelephone Certificate to use the FAA licence outside the USA something many are unaware of!

I thought the FAA stopped the requirement for a FCC radio license many years ago, back in the 90’s we used to use the acronym “ARROW” for (Airworthiness, Radio, Registration, Operating limits and Weight and Balance) documents that had to be in the aircraft. I don’t recall seeing a radio license in planes I have flown recently. Has this changed?

[Whopity]

They did indeed but on leaving the USA you have to comply with International regulations which include Radio Licences!

[The Gold Member]

They did indeed but on leaving the USA you have to comply with International
regulations which include Radio Licences!

International regulations or local regulations? I know that the UK requires a radio licence; however, I just need to get a UK licence, not an American one...

You will not be able to fly an EASA CofA after 8 April 2015 without dual
licences as I understand it.....

Is this a fact or just speculation?

[S-Works]

Is this a fact or just speculation?

Its a fact.


Already posted earlier.

Article 62 of the Air Navigation Order grants a permanent general validation to all non-UK licence holders to allow them to fly UK-registered aircraft, provided that the flight is for non-commercial purposes and the licence holder does not receive remuneration for the flight. The EASA Aircrew Regulation will override Article 62 in respect of EASA aircraft being flown for non-commercial purposes from 8 April 2014.

[BackPacker]

Yep. Read the long post with all the quotes that I posted above. In case you're not completely up to speed to what EASA is doing, here's the short summary.

EASA has taken over control of Flight Crew Licensing for all "Annex I" aircraft in the EU. "Annex I" aircraft are the majority of GA aircraft, and include regular aircraft such as the PA28 and C172. At the moment "Annex II" aircraft will remain under national legislation.

As EU regulations supersede national regulations, article 62 of the ANO (which deals with validation of foreign licenses) is no longer applicable to Annex I aircraft. Instead, your FAA PPL needs to be validated according to the EASA validation process. There are a lot of steps to this process, but the main issue will be that the validation will not be valid for more than a year.

The UK has filed a "derogation" which means that this aspect of EASA-FCL will only commence in the UK starting 8 april 2014. Suppose you are able to go through the validation process with your FAA PPL (which is by no means a given), then the latest date you could possibly use your FAA PPL to fly a G-reg would be 8 april 2015.

The only other way to keep using your FAA PPL to fly a G-reg after 8 april 2014 is to fly an "Annex II" aircraft.

There is a specific list of Annex II aircraft out there and you really would have to look up the list. But in general Annex II is a list of aircraft that, for some reason or another, are not entitled to receive a full, unlimited CofA. Examples of aircraft types on this list are experimental/homebuilt aircraft, and aircraft for which the certificate type holder no longer exists.

[Whopity]

I just need to get a UK licence, not an American one...
Thats good for a G reg but no good for N reg outside the US or any other European Reg!

International regulations or local regulations? International Telecommunication Union ITU and FCC
FCC 605 FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION Approved by OMB
Schedule C 3060 - 0850
See 605 Main Form Instructions
Information and Instructions for public burden estimate
Instructions for Schedule for Additional Data
for the Aircraft Radio Service (Part 87)
Form FCC 605, Schedule C, is a supplementary schedule for use with the FCC Quick-Form Application for Authorization in the Ship,
Aircraft, Amateur, Restricted and Commercial Operator, and the General Mobile Radio Services, FCC 605 Main Form. This schedule is
used to supply information for authorizations in the Aircraft Radio Service (Part 87). The FCC 605 Main Form must be filed in
conjunction with this schedule.
You must obtain an FCC Aircraft Radio Station License if you make international flights or communicate with foreign stations.
If you are not required to obtain a license - you do not need to file this form with the FCC.
Similarly an operator restricted permit is required to operate the station.

[172driver]

To clarify:

First off, the FCC license is a paper exercise, you fill in a (ridiculously complicated) online form, pay some money and a few weeks later the little piece of paper shows up in your mail. No exams or any personal interaction with officialdom required.

As for the flying part:
If you want to fly N-reg outside the US you need one.

If you want to validate your FAA license in another country, you typically do that country's (I have done a couple of those)

Of you want to convert your FAA to an EASA license then you do the CAA one.

All of the above - no big deal.

Where I admit not to be certain is, if under EASA the 100 hour conversion route still exists.

[piperboy84]

Whopity

They did indeed but on leaving the USA you have to comply with International regulations which include Radio Licences!


Goldmember:
International regulations or local regulations? I know that the UK requires a radio licence; however, I just need to get a UK licence, not an American one...

Now I am really confused, I have an N reg aircraft bought in the US which did not have an FCC radio license which is understandable, I brought it to the UK and fly it on a FAA PPL upon its arrival I applied for and send a cheque in for 25 quid for a UK radio license, the cheque was returned and i was told I don't need one, so I have neither a US or Uk radio license. Is it perhaps because my aircraft is a base VFR with a one comms radio but no nav radio equipment such as vor/loc,adf,loran, dme etc ?

[172driver]

piperboy, it's YOU who needs the FCC license! Sending money to the CAA won't help, the FCC want your hard earned cash ( IIRC 60 bucks). And yes, N-reg outside the US, you need one. No big deal, see my post above.

[piperboy84]

Another point often missed, is your FAA PPL a stand alone licence or has it been issued on the strength of a foreign licence.

No its a straightforward FAA PPL issued in the 90,s when they used your social security number as your pilots license number (this was before the identity fraudsters caught on to this and had a field day with pilots credit ratings)

I,m gonna get the license applied for Monday

[sapperkenno]

Where does it say that you can't operate a US-registered airplane outside the US on a §61.75 certificate? (If that's what you meant.)

[mm_flynn]

Where does it say that you can't operate a US-registered airplane outside the US on a §61.75 certificate? (If that's what you meant.)
Just to be clear on the rules for n-reg operators outside the US.

You must normally have an FAA pilots licence (see point 4)
This licence can be stand alone or 61.75
The 61.75 licence gives the same privileges as a normal licence. EXCEPT - if there are restrictions on your foreign licence (as in written on your foreign licence) like NO NIGHT FLIGHT then these restrictions apply to your 61.75 licence (I have seen, but don't have to hand, FAA documentation that specifically addresses the issue of Australian 'type' specific restrictions and these do not appear on the licence and therefore do not apply to a 61.75 FAA PPL)
You can fly an N-reg without a FAA licence as well if you have a licence issued by the state (and the FAA has said EASA is not a state) in which you are flying (so a UK CAA issued licence lets you fly an N-reg in the UK ONLY)
Your aircraft must have a radio station licence if it has any radios in it and is operated outside the US
You as a pilot must have a radio licence if you operate a radio in an N-reg outside the US
Both of these are pure paperwork licences (fill in form and send money)

Within EASA there is a complex set of rules with phased implementations (with unclear take up of the phasing across Europe) that requires in addition an EASA licence (and medical) to operate any foreign reg (including an n-reg) if the operator (not defined) is established (not defined) in an EASA country.

[Ebbie 2003]

On FAA and radio licences - I own an N reg airplane which I fly on an FAA licence in Barbados (the trust is SAC from the UK - go figure!).

I was issued a radio licence for the airplane for when it left the US - it is no a personal radio operator licence but rather a licence for the airplane to be a "radio station" - it was not needed by the US authorities for use in the US but rather so as not to possibly break the laws of the islands I passed through flying the airplane down here.

[Gomrath]

Suggest you read the following thread on the need for a FCC radio license:
http://www.pprune.org/north-america/416592-fcc-r-t-operator-certificate.html