Plane taxiing to take off while PAX are standing

[ChocksAwayChaps]

Can anyone tell me please whether it's against any regs for a plane to taxi to the runway while pax are still standing?

This happened this evening on a flight from EMA to AGP. The FAs had no control over the pax who could not find space in the overhead lockers for the bags hence pax were blocking the aisle. The FA was asked to come down the plane to organise the situation, eg to remove small bags and coats from the overhead lockers to make room for larger bags but said she couldn't get down the aisle because the pax were in the way.

The plane drew back from the stand and carried on towards the runway while about ten pax were standing in the aisle unable to stow their bags.

Is it me or is this not a good idea? Logic tells me that if pax are expected to be in their seats and strapped down while the plane taxis towards the gate after exiting the runway then the reverse must also be true.

One or two pax asked if this is a breach of CAA regs and I'm wondering if it should be reported. Seemed to me as though were some unmet training needs.
ETA: By the time the plane got to the runway, all pax were seated.

[sevenstrokeroll]

hi

I'm an airline pilot here in the good old USA and of course we are not under the CAA...however, we do NOT allow airplane movement of any kind (short of a an earthquake ;-0) while passengers are anywhere except in their seats with seatbelts properly fastened.

I am assuming that flight attendants were there and capable of reporting this to the cockpit crew? Perhaps the pilots thought the plane was ready to be taxiied...perhaps the FA's didn't do their job?

as far as reporting it...its up to you. I imagine no one was hurt, though it could have caused an injury.

[ChocksAwayChaps]

Thanks, sevenstrokeroll (http://www.pprune.org/members/199661-sevenstrokeroll). FAs were definitely not doing their job.

Am presuming pilots tell FAs when they're ready to push back and this would have provided an opportunity for FAs to say, hold on a sec, the pax aren't all seated yet, let alone tied down.

No idea who should be informed if it is against the regs but I can say it was a worrying situation with potential human sized missiles standing around.

[fergineer]

Chocks the biggest problem would be if the pilot had to hit the brakes then all hell would break loose. Just remembre that pax stand up when taxying in as well, remember many time the CC calling us in the flihght deck that pax were out of their seats. If big bags above and beyond the sizes allowed were taken off pax before they borded would also take the problem away. If the pilot stopped the taxi until the pax were seated and lost his slot for an hour who would get the blame, the pilots of course. There is a no win situation for the crew here. Report it and what will get done, the crew will get the blame, the pax are faceless and nameless so they will not be affected.

[Hotel Tango]

Why not name the operator? Nothing wrong in doing so if what you are reporting here is factual. I wonder if they just didn't want to miss their slot. No excuse of course.

[DaveReidUK]

Why not name the operator? Nothing wrong in doing so if what you are reporting here is factual. I wonder if they just didn't want to miss their slot. No excuse of course.Only one Saturday evening flight from EMA to AGP as far as I can see:

Google (http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=flights+from+ema+to+agp)

[PAXboy]

fergineer sums it all up. In these forums we have often shaken our collective heads' at the failure of ground staff to control hand luggage. We know why they do it - pax that will then be abusive at them.

If the ground staff knew that bad behaviour by pax woul dbe met with a supervisor barring them from the flight and being returned to the car park? But that is never going to happen.

It is the pax and, whilst the carrier (I've not bothered to look) IS at fault - in financial crisis the pax win every time.

[BOAC]

I did query this with BA when I was operating at LGW up to 2004 and they confirmed there was no 'procedure' (no 'requirement' therefore?) for crew to notify the Captain that all pax were seated prior to push-back. The only 'check' was a common-sense understanding between the Senior and Captain. I had previously pushed back quite a few times with pax standing. My personal opinion is that there should be a mandatory check before push and I was surprised there was not. I'm pretty sure previous airline (DanAir) had both a head count and an 'all seated' call before push/start, but memories fade.

In BA our trigger for start and push was generally 'doors closed' and in those days the pressure on dispatchers for the mythical 'good boy bonus' sometimes meant the last few pax were shoved through the door which was then shut by the dispatcher.

I had one Italiano who actually boarded 6 'late' pax and then pushed my senior over onto the galley floor as she would not allow him to shut the door (at STD) until the pax were seated...................I got out of my seat and 'spoke' to him offering him some 'advice', and unfortunately delayed departure. :)

[PAXboy]

'good boy bonus'
When you offer humans a bonus - it's amazing what they will do. As we have seen with the banks for starters. :hmm:

[ChocksAwayChaps]

The ground staff were checking the size of hand luggage so not really pax's fault that the plane has too little space.

Flight was Ryanair.

So there is no breach of regs? That's why I posted the question so if anyone knows any different...

[BOAC]

Well, yes, I believe it is a breach of regs as was BA's and no doubt a few other airlines, but in the frenzy to allow 'self-regulation' (aka cut admin costs) I guess no-one in the CAA/IAA really cares. It is 'left' to individual airlines to put be trusted to put adequate procedures in place. Just like aircraft flying with insufficient life-jackets - no longer the Captain's direct responsibility.

[pabloc]

Its always the cc that have to deal with SLF that dont listen ,when they are asked NOT to put coats,carrier bags etc in the overheads so That everyone can get cabin bags in their first.....simples!! I think SLF think that cc are their to make everyones life difficult:ugh:....Rant over!:ok:

[ChocksAwayChaps]

Pabloc, the CC did not ask the pax not to put coats, small bags up top in fact the CC was too busy chatting to a bloke at the aircraft door! She was thus not in a position in the aisle to organise the pax and when asked to do so, after the plane started moving she claimed she couldn't cos pax were in the way! I would have thought her uniform gave her authority to ask pax to let her pass.
As I said, unnmet training needs but how to get the airline's attention to address this? A report to CAA or wait til something unpleasant happens?

[CEJM]

Our Senior only informs the captain that the doors are closed and slides armed when ALL passengers are seated. We are NOT allowed to push-back with pax standing up.

[farci]

There's a lot of hand-wringing in the responses to the OP of the 'it wasn't me, the big boy ran away' variety. What happened was wrong, against regs (or should be) and unless pax complain it will not get fixed.

We have traffic lights at road junctions. If you pass at red and get away with it good for you; but you could endanger somebody else. That's why we have cameras.

The whole 'light-touch' regulation scenario which gave us the banking crisis depends on goodwill and self-discipline both of which are anathema to the profit motive as practiced by certain airlines/banks/food companies. It will change if there is a bad accident but do we want that on our consciences?

I suggest the OP complains to the CAA or whoever is in charge. They can insist on a remedy :=

[PAXboy]

I agree with all farci says. But please add "reducation of the pax across the last 30 years" to the list ... :sad:

[WHBM]

Let's give this some thought.

Can anyone justify why pax must not be standing during taxi, when they have just all been standing in the transfer bus out from the terminal, accelerating, braking and swinging round corners with far more g-force on the pax that is incurred during taxi, even coming to a stop. The transfer bus which over the years has provided less and less seats, so it ends up now that just about everyone is standing. And if the pax have just come out to Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line Underground, they've spent the last hour standing up while the train starts and stops every two minutes, without issue.

SLF that dont listen ,when they are asked NOT to put coats,carrier bags etc in the overheads so That everyone can get cabin bags in their firstExcuse me, but why should my carrier bag, coat, etc somehow take second priority in the overheads to someone else's cabin bags ? I'm as entitled to bring my hand items on board as the next pax. In fact, as the airline provides a hold baggage service, surely it should be those larger things, which should be in the hold in the first place, that should be reloaded down there.

[Hotel Tango]

All good points WHBM, especially the bus ride factor.

[pabloc]

WHBM...On some flights when SLF have still got to put cabin bags in the overheads and there is no room due to coats etc, we have to ask for them to be removed or we're going no where!,can't fly with cabin bags "in the way",you have every right to put your coat etc in the overhead,but sometimes co-operation and logic would see a safe,comfy and stress free flight for crew and passengers.....

[ChocksAwayChaps]

At EMA we boarded the plane directly from the terminal building using our own legs and not the bus so on this occasion this scenario is N/A.
Yes, thanks, farci for your reply.
As for the other replies, crikey, I only wanted a straight answer, did this breach regs or not!

[PAXboy]

ChocksAwayChapsAs for the other replies, crikey,But you DID post in PPRuNe, did you not??? :p

[BOAC]

As for the other replies, crikey, I only wanted a straight answer, did this breach regs or not! - letter and verse to be found in the ANO, then, for you http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf Part 10 Duties of Commander, Article 90.

[TightSlot]

Airport Bus? Underground Train? There is no thought required. This is classic Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument technique.

If the incident took place on an Irish registered aircraft, then The Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) will be the responsible authority, and should be advised. It is safe to say that there is a perception among some people, no doubt false, that the IAA enjoys a warm and close relationship with some Irish Airlines.

[Sober Lark]

some people

It is safe to say that all you need do is find just two persons to hold true such a statement. However, I suspect you may only need to find one other person. :)

[TightSlot]

However, I suspect you may only need to find one other person.
Absolutely not - I am entirely neutral: I serve merely as a mirror to reflect the views of wiser heads than mine...

[UniFoxOs]

Airport Bus? Underground Train?

Designed for travel with standing pax - handrails and straps everywhere, ond (usually) no overhead stowage. Aircraft are not so designed.

Have had hand baggage checked on RYR flights more than once, at the departure gate.

UFO

[BOAC]

no doubt false, - bold but safe...........:)

[Sober Lark]

My apologies for misjudging you Tightslot.

[givemewings]

Last time I checked, a bus is not sitting on a few wing tanks full of fuel. I think it is more to do with keeping the aisles clear and accessible than any issue with them being standing, Although, as with anything these days, better to sit them down before push and until brake set and keep it consistent.

You can also break a bus window and get out pretty easily if you had to-not so much on a plane.

I am sure some airlines would love the idea of hand straps and 'standing room only'- as I think one of them has joked about doing before...!

[Piltdown Man]

Another reference to the fact that assengers shall be seated and with their seat belts fastened whilst taxiing can be found in EU-OPS 1.320: Seats, safety belts and harnesses. Section (b) 1. says:


Before take-off and landing, and during taxiing, and whenever deemed necessary in the interest of safety, the commander shall ensure that each passenger on board occupies a seat or berth with his/her safety belt, or harness where provided, properly secured.
That is pretty clear to me but we must be careful before we sling too much at the cabin crew. I'm going to suggest that this operator (whomever that might be) may place too much emphasis on greedily screwing as much as they can out their pax. Exorbitant baggage charges may persuade pax to board with excessive amounts of carry-on. Also, the crew may have so much pressure applied to depart on time, maybe so a cheap and nasty little fanfare can be played on arrival, that some safety items are overlooked. It might also be interesting to know if there is a league table on departure delays in the crew room, with crew names listed. Also, there may be an unfriendly, unlistening, viscous management at both local and corporate level who don't give a stuff about such things.

So, yes, it is a requirement to have both baggage and passengers secured when an aircraft is moving on the ground.

PM

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Can anyone tell me please whether it's against any regs for a plane to taxi to the runway while pax are still standing?



THAT'S A YES THEN. We got there in the end thanks to BOAC.

AARON.