Little Red -anything innovative? (merged)

[BCALBOY]

Looking at the VS website can-t see anything particularly innovative from Little Red .

On point to point lowest fare on VS is £3 or £4 cheaper on VS on a round trip basis depending on route but BA have wider choice of flights.

The VS (EI ) operated A320 has 174 seats !so seat pitch not as good as BA.

Onboard service is hot bacon roll before 0900 thereafter drink and nibbles.
Does BA still offer full breakfast on Scottish services and bap on Man ?

On connections Checked a few trips at random in Apr ,Vs was £1 cheaper on a round trip Edi/Lax ,£2 Cheaper on Man/Lax ,VS £4 cheaper on Edi/Hkg return and Ba actually £5 cheaper on Man/Hkg.BA substantially cheaper to Jnb from points but that probably reflects the fact they have to fill 744s at not the busiest time of the on this route - so no big deal there? And obviously BA have better connections due higher frequencies.

Have I missed anything in the offering or is it just aiming to get those passengers who don-t like BA?

[virginblue]

I guess the point is to get long-haul passengers to LHR so they have access to the big red product (or other Skyteam or Star Alliance code-sharing partners). Can't see how Little Red can seriously compete on the domestic market with the low frequencies offered compared to BA (some people are even suggesting that the whole thing is a just a three year long slow-warming exercise to keep the slots long enough so that they can be used for long-haul services).

Besides that, I don't see while the short feeder flight must be the re-invention of short-haul traffic as VS probably sees any P2P-customers just as a nice add-on that contributes to the fixed costs. It appears as if many expected Little Red to be Virgin America Mk. II, however, Virgin America is a totally different concept for a different market that must differentiate itself from the competition through its product.

[BCALBOY]

There are restrictions on how the slots are used ,even after 3 years.

THey can only be switched to the long haul routes which overlapped between BA/BD...so that's Riyadh and Cairo, otherwise they revert to BA if VS come off Abz/Edi.

[virginblue]

Thanks, that's interesting. Did not know that. So if the slots revert back to BA, would they be free to use them for whatever route they want to? Or would they have to make them available to another airline that wants to give EDI/ABZ a shot?

[BCALBOY]

I think BA can do what they want with the slots ,if returned.

Not sure what situ is if someone else wants to have a go e.g.Aer Lingus had originally applied ,in competition with VS ,to op Abz/Edi in their own right, so they might be interested.

The Man slots are already owned by Vs so they could use them as they want, but I guess we need to give VS a chance rather than speculating before the services have even started.

[ETOPS]

It's a ticketing issue........

If a passenger books to fly with BA to LHR with a connection with VS onwards (as per the current agreement) then revenue and booking info flows to BA - a competitor. The pax is also delivered to the "wolfs lair" in T5 and needs to transfer to T3.

With Little Red Riding Hood to the rescue, the regional passenger can be securely transfered without falling into the clutches of the "big bad wolf" :eek:

[BCALBOY]

Think that is an issue from many years ago, several reasons...

1/ ON-line CHeckin means a lot of passengs are already hold an onward boarding card when they arrive into Lhr.

2/MOst passengers thru check baggage and with today's security levels, they can-t just switch flights when they arrive in LOndon.

3/E TKts have to be endorsed over in order to change carriers

4/many Promotional fares are non changeable and if another carrier did poach a ticket they would be carrying page for nothing and the original carrier would keep the money without having to carry the psgr.

5/The era you refer applied many to passengers originating in LOndon and turning up ,not checked in and without a boarding card and they needed to be on flexible tickets.

6/even if a way around all these issues was found by an over zealous staff member ,company procedures outlaw such practices and would involve serious disciplinary measures I.e. probably termination.

[stormin norman]

Have we British crews operating these flights?

[DaveReidUK]

Have we British crews operating these flights?It's a wet-lease from Aer Lingus and so presumably the crews will be EU nationals.

[LaudaB777]

Virgin are starting the 'little Red' service using their A320s (Scotland and Manchester lowest fares | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/ideas-lowestfares/scotland-manchester-lowest-fares.html)). Knowing that the London-Manchester route used to be operated exclusively by BMI, it'll be interesting to see how Virgin go by. They are promising on providing 'hot' meals on this short 40 minute flights. BA meanwhile offers cheaper tickets for the same route (at the moment)...AND by the way....the A320 planes are on wet lease from Aer Lingus...they are not even owned by Virgin!!! So are passengers tricked?!

[johnnychips]

Never done MAN-LHR, but BA MAN-LGW (soon deceased) served a very good hot breakfast on a full plane the time I travelled with them, so it's possible!

[jethro15]

"Complimentary meal Sir?

"Can I have mine later?

"Certainly, where do you live?

[CabinCrewe]

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/509316-little-red-anything-innovative.html

[victorc10]

Little red....the MOST idiotic name I have ever heard!! Who on earth came up with that? and I really hope they didn't pay anyone for it..

[TRY2FLY]

Well they couldn't have Big Red as that's already taken by a chewing gum company

[Hangar6]

EU nationals but seeking local staff based in ABZ and MAN however not allowed to restrict to British just EU English speaking nationals mind you ABZ dialect well, just kidding

[Barling Magna]

Little red....the MOST idiotic name I have ever heard!! Who on earth came up with that? and I really hope they didn't pay anyone for it..

Knowing Virgin's mindset I guess it alludes to the Rolling Stones' hit "Little Red Rooster" which, incidentally, is the only blues track ever to hit Number One in the UK singles chart. So you get red and blue at the same time.....

[LaudaB777]

Who on earth came up with that? Well certainly the final nod must have come from the top....Richard Branson himself

[PAXboy]

LaudaB777the A320 planes are on wet lease from Aer Lingus...they are not even owned by Virgin!!! So are passengers tricked?! In what way? Many new services start like this. It is the fastest way to get into the air and start earning money - to pay for new (or used) machines. Those machines will likely be owned by a leasing company and painted with Virgin artwork. In the same way that EI planes are not all owned by them, or that many people do not own their own home - the mortgage holder does.

[BCALBOY]

Aer Lingus has a large and successful shorthaul network which they were keen to expand. They wanted to acquire these remedy slots from BA to allow them to do so. Their main problem in marketing the routes would have been that customers might not automatically think AerLingus when looking to fly domestically in the UK (with the obvious exception of Belfast ).

Virgin probably weren't that keen commercially on taking on shorthaul domestic flying but they wanted to secure better domestic feed and maybe had some hopes that they could persuade the authorities to let them use the slots for alternative flying in 3 years time ( even though the agreement currently precludes this ). The spat between SRB and WW regarding BMI also made it awkward for VIrgin Atlantic to turn down the chance to compete domestically ,if offered the slots ,without losing face.

Solution - VIrgin is offered and accepts the slots and vow to compete vigorously against BA domestically .VS improves its feed , and potentially secures Grandfather rights to the slots whose use may be renegotiated in the future.
SRB has kept his word ! However, Virgin doesn't actually want to incur any losses operating the services.

Enter Aer Lingus .

Aer Lingus wants to expand its shorthaul flying to spread overheads including the redeployment of some crew recruited at LGW ( that base having been drawn down ). However , Aer Lingus would have more difficulty marketing UK domestic and in the event doesn't win the slots.

Solution- Virgin does a deal for Aer Lingus to fly the services in Virgin colours.
This meets their objectives of feed ,grandfather rights to the slots and allows SRB to keep his word without incurring big losses. From Aer Lingus point of view this achieves their objectives of increasing shorthaul flying , redeploying LGW staff and solves the problem of marketing UK domestic routes ( Virgin does it on their behalf ).

So it's a win win situation for both carriers.

Taking this slightly further ,could it be that this is more then just EI operating wet leases for VS ?

Could it be that EI are assuming full commercial risk on the routes .

i.e. EI pay the costs of operating the services and they keep the revenues generated.

Virgin have no financial exposure,they get the better domestic feed , and SRB gets to keep his word on competing with BA .There is no cost or risk to VS other than using the Virgin brand to market the routes ?

This is purely conjecture on my part , I have no inside info.

I don't know if this sort of arrangement would be allowed under the terms of BA handing over slots.

I don't know if Virgin or Aer Lingus would be required to disclose details of any such agreement ,if they had one.

Anyone else had thoughts along these lines ?

[DaveReidUK]

Could it be that EI are assuming full commercial risk on the routes .

i.e. EI pay the costs of operating the services and they keep the revenues generated.In other words, they would be Aer Lingus routes in all but name ?

No, I don't think that would be allowed - it's Virgin who have the licence to fly the routes, not EI.

[BCALBOY]

UK domesticg are Open Skies , any EU carrier can get a licence to op the routes.

ITs having the slots at Lhr that's the issue.

[DaveReidUK]

It's having the slots at LHR that's the issue.OK, poor choice of words on my part.

My point was that, Aer Lingus having failed in its bid for those EDI/ABZ route slots, wasn't going to be able to fly them by stealth, i.e. badged as VS but with EI assuming all the risk/reward.

[BCALBOY]

I haven-t seen a reason why ?

[LaudaB777]

check this out:

Virgin Atlantic A320 - Business Traveller (http://seatplans-asia.businesstraveller.com/airlines/Virgin-Atlantic/seatplans/A320-63)

Doughnuts not healthy food...they got Aer Lingus crew and aircraft

[PAXboy]

LaudaB777Doughnuts not healthy food...
You don't have to eat it. :=

they got Aer Lingus crew and aircraft
What is wrong with EI? You don't seem to like them (or VS) so best not to use this service. :hmm:

[johnnychips]

With reference to LaudaB777's link, I would love a Bacardi, Martini and Irn Bru cocktail, though they might have to carry me off at LHR.

[Flame]

Picture of the first "Aer Lingus" A320 to be leased to Virgin Atlantic..

Virgin Atlantic Airbus A320 EI-DEO | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://bit.ly/YPg0lp)

[VickersVicount]

what is different about that paint job ? Looks different some how

[Jack1985]

Just wondering what callsign will the Aer Lingus aircraft use? I assume Virgin?

[jethro15]

Picture of the first "Aer Lingus" A320 to be leased to Virgin Atlantic..

Virgin Atlantic Airbus A320 EI-DEO | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
What does the name 'Queen of the Cobbles' refer to?

[GEB74]

Jethro - Coronation Street!
Expect to see this plane on the MAN run.............

[jethro15]

GEB74

Appreciated

[Suzeman]

Just wondering what callsign will the Aer Lingus aircraft use? I assume Virgin?

Correct - Virgin is used

[Trossie]

Virgin launches glass-bottomed plane - Richard's Blog - Virgin.com (http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/virgin-atlantic-launches-worlds-first-ever-glass-bottomed-plane) -- Innovative?

[deltahotel9]

:D and the date today?

[Jack1985]

Correct - Virgin is used

Thanks :)

Cabin Shot (EI-DEO)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5047/phpebld53.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/phpebld53.jpg/)

[Trossie]

It's a pity that the "Richards' Blog" yesterday didn't get more coverage, not only a neatly planned 'April Fool' but also out-'ridiculous-ing' another well known airline headman for way out statements in order to get publicity!

[TCX69]

Good start.. The VS3046/1 is cancelled this morning.. Tech!

[Thrush]

Do we remember Virgin Sun...? Different product/market, but....

Many of us have worked for operators where the SLF are "tricked", but they seem happy as long as they get their miles-cards filled in.

Manx/BRAL/Cityflier/Logan etc etc. From the cockpit door back the punters think they are on "Big Airline" and do not notice the small decal by the door which says, "Operated by ....."

I SLF'd on Virgin Sun one. Very pleasant and efficient crew.

[crewmeal]

Why couldn't Virgin get their own 320's? Is there a shortage of frames? Or maybe they are testing the domestic waters to see if the routes will make them money. If they don't my guess is the slots will be transferred to their long haul ops.

[Gpik]

The only slots that can be transferred to L/H ops are the MAN slots as these were all VS slots originally. Any EDI/ABZ slots can not be swapped to L/H after one year or three years. They can only be used for ABZ/EDI/NCE/CAI/RUH. This seems to be a common misconception on many different forums.

[PAXboy]

crewmealWhy couldn't Virgin get their own 320's? It's about time to market and cost then, also, about testing the market.

If they decided to acquire their own airframes, the lead time would be longer so they will lease them from someone else. They have obviously struck a deal with EI but might have done a deal with any carrier or leasing agent anywhere in the workd that had the right machines available for the time and price wanted. Those machines might have had any of a 100 different airline colours on them - or be plain white.

The flights will be Virgin Little Red, operated by someone else - just as, if you fly British Airways internally in South Africa, the machines are owned and operated by Comair for BA. In both cases, the responsibiity for everything lies with VS or BA as the case may be.

If things go well, they might well purchase their own machines, or they might buy the ones of EI - it does not matter. The colour of the paint on the outside does not always belong to the name painted alongside.

You might send a parcel by Royal Mail but they might sub-contract another company to transport the parcel part/all of the way. If there is a problem - then R.M. have to sort it. [pun intended :D]

[ETOPS]

PAXboy

If they decided to acquire their own airframes, the lead time would be longer so they will lease them from someone else.

Interestingly Aer Lingus didn't have enough A320 aircraft so they had to get 2 from Italy I-EEZF and I-EEZG. Previously operated by Meridiana, neither of these two 'frames have ever worn Aer Lingus "green".......

if you fly British Airways internally in South Africa

You're flying on Comair - an independent local operator flying as a franchisee - like SUN-AIR in Denmark.

[Epsomdog]

VS, at the moment, don't have the mindset or expertise to operate short haul. That's why they hired EI to run this operation for them. EI are one of the few legacy operators to make money out of a non-loco service.

Only time will tell if VS have a real ambition to become a short haul operator.

[PAXboy]

ETOPSYou're flying on Comair Of course you are!!!! That was exactly what I was planning on typing! Thanks for pointing it out, I've corrected my post. :ugh:

As for EI getting airframes from somewhere else? That's the wonderful world of airframe leasing and ownership at work.

[Epsomdog]

Couldn't have said it better myself:D

[hampshireandy]

Presumably the punters that this service is attracting are some who previously took the train from Euston to Man? Great, virgin are competing with the west coast main line,.....err hang on though, the franchise of which is held by Virgin for another 2 years. So all that is happening surely is that the punters, and any profits are just being shuffled around?? Not a bad thing i suppose but it still seems a strange business model.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

The service is actually aimed at long-haul connecting traffic, primarily for Virgin Atlantic themselves. BMI had feeder agreements with many LHR operators which did not want to be dependent on BA for connections, so expect Virgin to target this market segment too. Whilst the Virgin Atlantic service is available for London - Manchester point-to-point bookings, these will just be viewed as icing on the cake. Hence the business model does make sense.

[rodentone]

With the current state of affairs down at Exeter International, does anyone think SRB might be interested in a punt at BE? ...or at least some of the routes or perhaps it's entire UK operation?

[DaveReidUK]

BMI had feeder agreements with many LHR operators which did not want to be dependent on BA for connectionsCorrect. In fact Virgin codeshared on BMI's UK domestic routes (with VS4xxx flight numbers) for many years.

[Epsomdog]

Little Red a/c ceiling and wall lights are pink tinted. It's like looking through rosé coloured glasses!

[Jack1985]

What are peoples predictions with Little Red? I believe they need to branch out their short-haul offerings but obviously are severely constrained by slots at London/Heathrow. Hearing a lot about people saying It will be gone by next year, I'm not so sure. They're product looks seriously good up against BA the only let down in my eyes the lack of frequency on routes. Also I'm still surprised Virgin aren't codesharing with Aer Lingus on the Dublin routes or the Ireland operation in general.

[Steviec9]

I would assume that the extant code sharing agreement between EI and BA on the EI LHR-SNN/ORK routes is a bit of a block to EI/VS code sharing in full. However, I suppose this might get reviewed if EI and VS 'stay in bed' with each other longer term.

[Joe Curry]

Are fares from ABZ/EDI/MAN on Little Red common rated with those
from Heathrow on connecting VS flights? Apologies if this has been discussed before.

[marlowe]

Was in ABZ yesterday and saw its morning departure did they really carry two pax ? Because that's all I saw board the aircraft.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Serves them right for not including Glasgow. I know BMI didn't do very well from GLA (well according to them anyway) but think VS could have served GLA as well as ABZ and EDI. There must be lots of connecting traffic possibilities that are still going to BA.

[willy wombat]

I have to say I think you're right. I cannot see MAN working and if they had opted for GLA they would have had a nice, comprehensive Scottish operation with a clear message, more cost effective advertising, etc.

[DaveReidUK]

I cannot see MAN working Virgin Atlantic codeshared on BD's LHR/MAN flights for many years, so I think it's safe to assume that they have a pretty good idea of the value of the route in terms of transfer traffic.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

So why shouldn't MAN work? The airport serves a densely populated and economically vital catchment area from which VIR will draw connecting passengers onto its long-haul network. The VIR domestic service will also be offered to other carriers requiring LHR feed which do not wish to rely on direct competitor BA for connections. Whilst there is certainly a case for GLA, it is wishful thinking on your part to presume the city a better choice than MAN.

[ETOPS]

Tried to book a lastminute MAN - LHR morning flight with VS a couple of days ago - £285 one way was the fare for both of the am departures. Later flight was £82...

[TSR2]

Tried to book a lastminute MAN - LHR morning flight with VS a couple of days ago - £285 one way

That would be a 'fully flexible fare. A typically cheapest fare is around £110 return on all flights.

[gsky]

So why shouldn't MAN work?


No reasons except for BA and their frequency.
LHR-MAN Flight last night was less than half full!

and in answer to the question:

Little Red -anything innovative?

As far as I could see. NO!! sadly!!

[750XL]

I've flown 'Little Red' and was very impressed. Decent aircraft interiors, plenty of leg room and a good service from the crew. For a 40min flight it can only be 'so good' but it did the job well :ok:

At the moment from MAN, 80% of pax are connecting onwards with decent F/J loads

[willy wombat]

Why can't I see MAN working? Because even with a reasonable amount of connecting traffic, short haul routes do not normally work without a good, core point to point market and the train service between London and Manchester is just too good. While VS will undoubtedly benefit from some feed traffic on to its own services I can't believe that this plus a small amount of point to point, plus feed to other carriers at lousy pro-rates will generate enough revenue to come anywhere close to covering the costs of running the route.

[ETOPS]

That would be a 'fully flexible fare. A typically cheapest fare is around £110 return on all flights.

Errrr ... No :=

On the booking page I was presented with two sets of fares - standard and the fully flexible. It was the same price for both - the later flight had the differential with standard at £82 and fully flexible at £285.

Having just found we wont be able to use our BA staff tickets on this service I'm reviewing my commuting plans..........

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

ww - VIR's LHR-MAN route was never set up to compete with the train. It was set up to feed long-haul connecting flights as explained earlier, and the airline fully comprehends the economics involved. If point-to-point business shows up in any volume VIR will welcome it, but it is purely icing on the cake. This service is all about long-haul connectivity. In terms of the costs of running the route, what will interest Virgin is the revenues protected onto long-haul connections which would otherwise be lost to rival carriers. A loss-leader to LHR is fine if the customer then pays for onward sectors to LAX, SYD, HKG etc. MAN has a long history of providing substantial feed onto LHR long-hauls. Operator Virgin Little Red may be new but the route itself is not.

[750XL]

As I said in a previous post, as it stands from MAN, 80%+ are connecting pax with a decent number of high yielding pax (F/J class). I believe the base fare on a MAN-LHR is about £7

[Skipness One Echo]

I don't think that's quite right. BA need a good percentage of connecting AND P2P to balance the books on the Shuttle. If every flight went out rammed to the gunnels with connections, the operation would lose money surely.

I cannot think of any short haul route that does this, a balance must be struck between recieving a fraction of the long haul revenue and full fare business yield heading down to London.

[VickersVicount]

however high yielding international flights running fuller with connecting regional pax would allow for this being potentially a "loss-leader" overall... surely.

[willy wombat]

The proof of the pudding....etc. We shall see what happens over the next couple of years.

[SealinkBF]

I was on the first Little Red flight from Manchester and great fun it was too. [/geek]

Learnt that VS and other non-oneworld airlines were really hurt by the loss of bmi feeder traffic - so Little Red was needed, fast. The first flight was a codeshare with NZ and SQ.

For all intents and purposes you are on a Virgin plane, with staff in Virgin uniforms. Aer Lingus is shown on the safety card and on a decal by the door.

I think the innovation is that connecting passengers are bussed from the aircraft steps* to Terminal 3. And BA does need competition, despite what they say, LHR domestic fares shot up after the demise of bmi.

Have four more Little Red flights booked before 11th May! Can't wait.

Double airmiles (3,000 per round trip until end of June) is decent too.

* well, from the jetway

[DaveReidUK]

The first flight was a codeshare with NZ and SQ.All Virgin's domestic routes are also codeshared with CY and SA, in addition to NZ/SQ.

[ETOPS]

Had a panicky moment in T5 this morning when it looked likely I wouldn't get the jumpseat heading to MAN. Fired up the iPad and tried a booking with VS - prices were £153.30 one way (lowest) and £303.30 one way (flexible).

Held my nerve and scraped on my BA flight (thanks Ian & Iain :D) but think "little Red" might need to reduce their "on the day fares" as I found out how many were actually boarded......:confused:

[Bagso]

.....from MAN surely you would connect via Dubai, Abu Dhabi or even Doha. ?

Given that every flight Ex MAN on these flights is full there AND levels of service are better has there not been a shift to long haul connect rather than short haul connect ?

[RoyHudd]

Hmmm.. service quality on EK, EY and particularly QR has been poor out of and into MAN in my experience.:sad:

[North West]

..and every flight clearly isn't full, despite the repeated claims from Bagso to the contrary.

[Skipness One Echo]

Given that every flight Ex MAN on these flights is full
Odd how QR dropped from 14 a week wouldn't you say?