Little Red -anything innovative? (merged)
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Little Red -anything innovative? (merged)
Looking at the VS website can-t see anything particularly innovative from Little Red .
On point to point lowest fare on VS is £3 or £4 cheaper on VS on a round trip basis depending on route but BA have wider choice of flights.
The VS (EI ) operated A320 has 174 seats !so seat pitch not as good as BA.
Onboard service is hot bacon roll before 0900 thereafter drink and nibbles.
Does BA still offer full breakfast on Scottish services and bap on Man ?
On connections Checked a few trips at random in Apr ,Vs was £1 cheaper on a round trip Edi/Lax ,£2 Cheaper on Man/Lax ,VS £4 cheaper on Edi/Hkg return and Ba actually £5 cheaper on Man/Hkg.BA substantially cheaper to Jnb from points but that probably reflects the fact they have to fill 744s at not the busiest time of the on this route - so no big deal there? And obviously BA have better connections due higher frequencies.
Have I missed anything in the offering or is it just aiming to get those passengers who don-t like BA?
On point to point lowest fare on VS is £3 or £4 cheaper on VS on a round trip basis depending on route but BA have wider choice of flights.
The VS (EI ) operated A320 has 174 seats !so seat pitch not as good as BA.
Onboard service is hot bacon roll before 0900 thereafter drink and nibbles.
Does BA still offer full breakfast on Scottish services and bap on Man ?
On connections Checked a few trips at random in Apr ,Vs was £1 cheaper on a round trip Edi/Lax ,£2 Cheaper on Man/Lax ,VS £4 cheaper on Edi/Hkg return and Ba actually £5 cheaper on Man/Hkg.BA substantially cheaper to Jnb from points but that probably reflects the fact they have to fill 744s at not the busiest time of the on this route - so no big deal there? And obviously BA have better connections due higher frequencies.
Have I missed anything in the offering or is it just aiming to get those passengers who don-t like BA?
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I guess the point is to get long-haul passengers to LHR so they have access to the big red product (or other Skyteam or Star Alliance code-sharing partners). Can't see how Little Red can seriously compete on the domestic market with the low frequencies offered compared to BA (some people are even suggesting that the whole thing is a just a three year long slow-warming exercise to keep the slots long enough so that they can be used for long-haul services).
Besides that, I don't see while the short feeder flight must be the re-invention of short-haul traffic as VS probably sees any P2P-customers just as a nice add-on that contributes to the fixed costs. It appears as if many expected Little Red to be Virgin America Mk. II, however, Virgin America is a totally different concept for a different market that must differentiate itself from the competition through its product.
Besides that, I don't see while the short feeder flight must be the re-invention of short-haul traffic as VS probably sees any P2P-customers just as a nice add-on that contributes to the fixed costs. It appears as if many expected Little Red to be Virgin America Mk. II, however, Virgin America is a totally different concept for a different market that must differentiate itself from the competition through its product.
Last edited by virginblue; 3rd Mar 2013 at 15:44.
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There are restrictions on how the slots are used ,even after 3 years.
THey can only be switched to the long haul routes which overlapped between BA/BD...so that's Riyadh and Cairo, otherwise they revert to BA if VS come off Abz/Edi.
THey can only be switched to the long haul routes which overlapped between BA/BD...so that's Riyadh and Cairo, otherwise they revert to BA if VS come off Abz/Edi.
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Thanks, that's interesting. Did not know that. So if the slots revert back to BA, would they be free to use them for whatever route they want to? Or would they have to make them available to another airline that wants to give EDI/ABZ a shot?
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I think BA can do what they want with the slots ,if returned.
Not sure what situ is if someone else wants to have a go e.g.Aer Lingus had originally applied ,in competition with VS ,to op Abz/Edi in their own right, so they might be interested.
The Man slots are already owned by Vs so they could use them as they want, but I guess we need to give VS a chance rather than speculating before the services have even started.
Not sure what situ is if someone else wants to have a go e.g.Aer Lingus had originally applied ,in competition with VS ,to op Abz/Edi in their own right, so they might be interested.
The Man slots are already owned by Vs so they could use them as they want, but I guess we need to give VS a chance rather than speculating before the services have even started.
It's a ticketing issue........
If a passenger books to fly with BA to LHR with a connection with VS onwards (as per the current agreement) then revenue and booking info flows to BA - a competitor. The pax is also delivered to the "wolfs lair" in T5 and needs to transfer to T3.
With Little Red Riding Hood to the rescue, the regional passenger can be securely transfered without falling into the clutches of the "big bad wolf"
If a passenger books to fly with BA to LHR with a connection with VS onwards (as per the current agreement) then revenue and booking info flows to BA - a competitor. The pax is also delivered to the "wolfs lair" in T5 and needs to transfer to T3.
With Little Red Riding Hood to the rescue, the regional passenger can be securely transfered without falling into the clutches of the "big bad wolf"
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Think that is an issue from many years ago, several reasons...
1/ ON-line CHeckin means a lot of passengs are already hold an onward boarding card when they arrive into Lhr.
2/MOst passengers thru check baggage and with today's security levels, they can-t just switch flights when they arrive in LOndon.
3/E TKts have to be endorsed over in order to change carriers
4/many Promotional fares are non changeable and if another carrier did poach a ticket they would be carrying page for nothing and the original carrier would keep the money without having to carry the psgr.
5/The era you refer applied many to passengers originating in LOndon and turning up ,not checked in and without a boarding card and they needed to be on flexible tickets.
6/even if a way around all these issues was found by an over zealous staff member ,company procedures outlaw such practices and would involve serious disciplinary measures I.e. probably termination.
1/ ON-line CHeckin means a lot of passengs are already hold an onward boarding card when they arrive into Lhr.
2/MOst passengers thru check baggage and with today's security levels, they can-t just switch flights when they arrive in LOndon.
3/E TKts have to be endorsed over in order to change carriers
4/many Promotional fares are non changeable and if another carrier did poach a ticket they would be carrying page for nothing and the original carrier would keep the money without having to carry the psgr.
5/The era you refer applied many to passengers originating in LOndon and turning up ,not checked in and without a boarding card and they needed to be on flexible tickets.
6/even if a way around all these issues was found by an over zealous staff member ,company procedures outlaw such practices and would involve serious disciplinary measures I.e. probably termination.
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Virgin's Little Red!
Virgin are starting the 'little Red' service using their A320s (Scotland and Manchester lowest fares | Virgin Atlantic). Knowing that the London-Manchester route used to be operated exclusively by BMI, it'll be interesting to see how Virgin go by. They are promising on providing 'hot' meals on this short 40 minute flights. BA meanwhile offers cheaper tickets for the same route (at the moment)...AND by the way....the A320 planes are on wet lease from Aer Lingus...they are not even owned by Virgin!!! So are passengers tricked?!
Last edited by LaudaB777; 8th Mar 2013 at 21:21.
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Never done MAN-LHR, but BA MAN-LGW (soon deceased) served a very good hot breakfast on a full plane the time I travelled with them, so it's possible!
Last edited by johnnychips; 7th Mar 2013 at 21:28.
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Crews
EU nationals but seeking local staff based in ABZ and MAN however not allowed to restrict to British just EU English speaking nationals mind you ABZ dialect well, just kidding
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Little red....the MOST idiotic name I have ever heard!! Who on earth came up with that? and I really hope they didn't pay anyone for it..
Paxing All Over The World
LaudaB777
In what way? Many new services start like this. It is the fastest way to get into the air and start earning money - to pay for new (or used) machines. Those machines will likely be owned by a leasing company and painted with Virgin artwork. In the same way that EI planes are not all owned by them, or that many people do not own their own home - the mortgage holder does.
the A320 planes are on wet lease from Aer Lingus...they are not even owned by Virgin!!! So are passengers tricked?!
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A scenario to consider
Aer Lingus has a large and successful shorthaul network which they were keen to expand. They wanted to acquire these remedy slots from BA to allow them to do so. Their main problem in marketing the routes would have been that customers might not automatically think AerLingus when looking to fly domestically in the UK (with the obvious exception of Belfast ).
Virgin probably weren't that keen commercially on taking on shorthaul domestic flying but they wanted to secure better domestic feed and maybe had some hopes that they could persuade the authorities to let them use the slots for alternative flying in 3 years time ( even though the agreement currently precludes this ). The spat between SRB and WW regarding BMI also made it awkward for VIrgin Atlantic to turn down the chance to compete domestically ,if offered the slots ,without losing face.
Solution - VIrgin is offered and accepts the slots and vow to compete vigorously against BA domestically .VS improves its feed , and potentially secures Grandfather rights to the slots whose use may be renegotiated in the future.
SRB has kept his word ! However, Virgin doesn't actually want to incur any losses operating the services.
Enter Aer Lingus .
Aer Lingus wants to expand its shorthaul flying to spread overheads including the redeployment of some crew recruited at LGW ( that base having been drawn down ). However , Aer Lingus would have more difficulty marketing UK domestic and in the event doesn't win the slots.
Solution- Virgin does a deal for Aer Lingus to fly the services in Virgin colours.
This meets their objectives of feed ,grandfather rights to the slots and allows SRB to keep his word without incurring big losses. From Aer Lingus point of view this achieves their objectives of increasing shorthaul flying , redeploying LGW staff and solves the problem of marketing UK domestic routes ( Virgin does it on their behalf ).
So it's a win win situation for both carriers.
Taking this slightly further ,could it be that this is more then just EI operating wet leases for VS ?
Could it be that EI are assuming full commercial risk on the routes .
i.e. EI pay the costs of operating the services and they keep the revenues generated.
Virgin have no financial exposure,they get the better domestic feed , and SRB gets to keep his word on competing with BA .There is no cost or risk to VS other than using the Virgin brand to market the routes ?
This is purely conjecture on my part , I have no inside info.
I don't know if this sort of arrangement would be allowed under the terms of BA handing over slots.
I don't know if Virgin or Aer Lingus would be required to disclose details of any such agreement ,if they had one.
Anyone else had thoughts along these lines ?
Virgin probably weren't that keen commercially on taking on shorthaul domestic flying but they wanted to secure better domestic feed and maybe had some hopes that they could persuade the authorities to let them use the slots for alternative flying in 3 years time ( even though the agreement currently precludes this ). The spat between SRB and WW regarding BMI also made it awkward for VIrgin Atlantic to turn down the chance to compete domestically ,if offered the slots ,without losing face.
Solution - VIrgin is offered and accepts the slots and vow to compete vigorously against BA domestically .VS improves its feed , and potentially secures Grandfather rights to the slots whose use may be renegotiated in the future.
SRB has kept his word ! However, Virgin doesn't actually want to incur any losses operating the services.
Enter Aer Lingus .
Aer Lingus wants to expand its shorthaul flying to spread overheads including the redeployment of some crew recruited at LGW ( that base having been drawn down ). However , Aer Lingus would have more difficulty marketing UK domestic and in the event doesn't win the slots.
Solution- Virgin does a deal for Aer Lingus to fly the services in Virgin colours.
This meets their objectives of feed ,grandfather rights to the slots and allows SRB to keep his word without incurring big losses. From Aer Lingus point of view this achieves their objectives of increasing shorthaul flying , redeploying LGW staff and solves the problem of marketing UK domestic routes ( Virgin does it on their behalf ).
So it's a win win situation for both carriers.
Taking this slightly further ,could it be that this is more then just EI operating wet leases for VS ?
Could it be that EI are assuming full commercial risk on the routes .
i.e. EI pay the costs of operating the services and they keep the revenues generated.
Virgin have no financial exposure,they get the better domestic feed , and SRB gets to keep his word on competing with BA .There is no cost or risk to VS other than using the Virgin brand to market the routes ?
This is purely conjecture on my part , I have no inside info.
I don't know if this sort of arrangement would be allowed under the terms of BA handing over slots.
I don't know if Virgin or Aer Lingus would be required to disclose details of any such agreement ,if they had one.
Anyone else had thoughts along these lines ?
