View Full Version : SAS (Commuter) bringing out the axe!!!
jimbob
23rd Apr 2002, 07:52
Just heard on TV: SAS Commuter saying bye-bye to "about" 100 pilots, 80 cabin crew and 30 groundstaff as a direct result of canceling 12 (or was it 13?) destinations.......
People was talking about an upswing in aviation in the near future, but I don't know.......
Good luck to all of you involved......
Jimbob
TheMagus
23rd Apr 2002, 08:54
I'm not sure exactly whether SAS are letting pilots go or not but I'm quite sure SAS Commuter are not.
SAS Commuter have their own cabin crew but the pilots are actually employed by SAS Airline.
So, if any pilots are being let go it will be from SAS Airline.
...a moot point, I know... If you are fired it is just as bad regardless of who you are fired from...
PropsAreForBoats
23rd Apr 2002, 08:58
The exact number of pilots who will be fired are 91 in SAS Commuter. We hope to save some of these in 50%-positions by LOA and reduced duty among the rest of the pilots, but with only about 300 pilots remaining, it will be difficult to save all. In SAS the number is 160 pilots, and they are working 50%, while the remaining 80 positions are handled by LOA and reduced duty among the rest. The main reason for this is the economic difficulties of the airline, SAS is operating with big losses, and needs restructuring to cut costs.
However, we also suffer from the fact that the SAS Group has ownership in a myriad of different airlines, and are starting (or rather, continuing) to reduce SAS production in favour of these. Examples are Spain-Scandinavia (Spanair), Copenhagen-Sweden (Skyways), Sweden-Finland (Air Botnia), northern Norway (Braathens and Widerøe). In northern Norway this has actually resulted in the closing of the SAS Commuter base in Tromsø, which will cease operations in April next year. This happens while we see that the other airlines within the SAS Group increase their production!
SAS and SAS Commuter pilots are now learning why you need scope clauses. And we are learning it the hard way.
DownIn3Green
23rd Apr 2002, 10:42
Does this affect Air Baltic in any way?
Pille
25th Apr 2002, 17:11
Well.there are a lot of pilots in Sweden who is not crying over SAS comutor at this very moment.
They remember how SAS and SAS comutor betraided Swedair pilots with good help from swedish and danish and norwegan unions ten years ago.Now they are trying to do it once agin to other pilots in Skyways , Air Bothnia, Braathens.
I really hope they don,t get away with it this time.
tannis
25th Apr 2002, 18:44
o yes they will
flapsforty
25th Apr 2002, 19:38
Just on the news here in Norway:
"In a 180 degrees reversal of the promises made by SAS on aquiring Braathen Safe, SAS has announced that 800 Braathen's employees will be fired"
It seems SAS promised Braathen's employees that the employees of both SAS and Braathes would be treated the same, if and when it would come to firing people.
"This was obviously just for show. That's why we are retiring form all projects on co-operation between SAS and Braathens as of right now" say the 11 unions representing Braathen's employees in a joint communiqué.
PropsAreForBoats
26th Apr 2002, 10:16
Flapsforty,
the news you are referring to concerns the ground staff.
A project group is still working on how to resolve the redundancy among ground staff, and will present their results in the beginning of May.
Regarding flight and cabin crew the story is different. So far the only job losses after the Braathens buy have been among SAS/SAS Commuter personell. And these reductions come as a direct result of SAS-owned airlines taking over previously SAS/SC-operated routes. This wednesday 31 new pilots in SC was fired, bringing us up to a total of 48 so far. 43 more will have to go before the end of the year.
Braathens have actually reduced their numbers of redundant pilots and cabin crew after the buy, due to increased scheduled and charter production.
too low flaps
26th Apr 2002, 14:32
Pille, Could you be a bit more spesific about SC's betrayal to
Swed Air?
And how are the unions at SAS/SC trying to do this again?
Basicly I think pilots should stick together, and co-operate instead
of being happy over colleagues problems.
Does any one here know how the salaries are for FC and FP at
Skyways??
Pille
26th Apr 2002, 15:51
Yes too low flaps,i agree that pilot should stick together and give support to another.
But where were all colleges when Swedair was closed down.
The decision to close down Swedair was nothing but politics politics and union politics within SAS /SC.
The final decision to close down Swedair was taken by SAS board in end of 93 with full support from all unions within SAS/SC .
Payscale
27th Apr 2002, 07:11
TheMagus
...hmmm...what can I say!......well, SAS Commuter would be the first airline I have ever heard of that did not employ it own pilots. I am sure there is 91 pilots there, without a job, that wish your wisdom was fact.
What you probably have hears is that some captains are former FO with the airline, that bid for a command with SC. I am quite sure I am right on this ;)
TheMagus
27th Apr 2002, 08:02
Payscale,
SAS Commuter is a wholly owned subsidiary of SAS and their only customer is SAS airline. To all intents and purposes SAS Commuter is a part of SAS Airline. Try buying a ticket from SAS Commuter...
I worked for SAS Commuter a couple of years ago and at that time the pilot corps was common to both airlines but the cabin crew were employed by either SAS Commuter or SAS Airline.
The pilots could, for instance, bid on both SAS Airline and SAS Commuter.
Maybe that has changed since then.
Maybe a B767 pilot bidding for F50 or Q400 had to resign from SAS Airline and be hired by SAS Commuter.
Maybe they chose to fire pilots flying for SAS Commuter as most of the routes being closed are Commuter routes.
Maybe I'm completely wrong about it. Does it matter who is right and who is wrong?
I still say it's a moot point. If you are fired it doesn't matter who fired you; you are still out of a job and my sympathies go out to those 91 pilots.
5 APU's captain
27th Apr 2002, 09:16
To DownIn3Green:
There is no any affect on Air Baltic, because air Baltic officially is owned by Latvian government company.
Payscale
27th Apr 2002, 15:13
TM,
Yes it does mater who is right and who is wrong generally speaking. Not in the issue here. Maybe you worked for a company called COD - the predecessor to SC. Then the pilots worked for SAS and some of the cabin for SC. That my friend was a long, long time ago.
I too worked for SC untill recently, and my symphaties goes to all the young FO that have lost jobs.....
dick badcock
30th Apr 2002, 03:24
Magus, if you still read Nor/Swe/Dan, you should check out the Scandinavian Forum. About 50% of the posts concern the fact that although employed by SAS group, there is a VERY big difference between a SC and an SAS pilot. It is true that they are on a shared seniorty list but that is as far as the similarities go.
DB
DownIn3Green
2nd May 2002, 17:34
5 APU's,
That's what I thought. Glad for that as well because I know many of your pilots and have flown with your company many times.
I will be visiting Riga again this summer, maybe I will see you in the old town for a cold "Alus".
saab340
2nd May 2002, 19:51
SAS Commuter
It is kind of hard to try to neglect the fact that I and all my colleagues in Swedair was stabbed in the back by SAS Commuter and their pilot union members in 1993.
We all lost our jobs and furthermore ALL of our highly qualified pilots that applied for vacant pilot jobs in SAS Commuter were rejected.
This happened at a time when jobs were scarse and some of the Swedair pilots had to go unemployed for a long time.
PropsAreForBoats
3rd May 2002, 00:00
Could someone please supply the full story of this back-stabbing of Swedair by SC and SC unions? And what kind of commitment SAS Commuter had to the welfare of Swedair in the first place? To indulge us young kids who haven't been around very long...
I just heard that Braathens' pilots scheduled to be made redundant this coming fall, have been given a year extra before they are redundant. Now that has to be interesting for the SC pilots that are fired to hear. Aquire the competition that is on the brink of ruin, and pump it full of hard earned cash for it to survive, then start firing your own employees! That must be a real moral booster!!! And the unions seems to be just bystanders...
I think that if the unions don't react soon this will be the world to come. Since we don't have the scope clauses of the US, soon the high-costing SAS pilots will slowly be phased out and cheaper labour will be used through increased outsourcing! This will lower the standard for the pilots throughout the pilot community in Scandinavia. (By "standard" I meen the fine union agreements most of the pilot groups have been able to negotiate)
What is there to hinder that SAS will not do ALL of its expansion through Braathens, Wideröe, Spanair, Air Bottnia, Skyways etc in the future?
It is time for the union to put a stop to the outsourcing !
PropsAreForBoats
3rd May 2002, 10:12
Exactly!
That is the crux of this matter! We need a scope clause, and we need it now. The unions are however working on it...
stab trim
3rd May 2002, 11:48
'It is time for the union to put a stop to the outsourcing !'
He,he
May be it's time for the unions to negotiate conditions with SAS making the need for outsourcing obsolete. I believe better pilot productivity within SAS is the best way to ensure SAS management see no reason for outsourcing. The alternative is ever increased use of outsourcing, and eventually we'll see other airlines (also independent of SAS) taking over the SAS business. SAS unions, the choice is yours ! Good luck, and welcome to the real world !
Said by a BU engineer!:rolleyes: Surprise!
Oh, and here I was, thinking that in "the real world", companies that couldn´t make it would go bust. Naiive me! But a little collegial respect towards those who saved your job, instead of your sarcasm towards future colleagues, would be nice to see.
Thankfully "scope clauses" are not outlawed yet. And when some are hopefully adopted in the near future, maybe "stab trim" will see what the real world can be like! This written in response to several of your posts on different threads.
Props...
I'm glad to hear that they are working on it cuz that ain't the picture I got when I spoke to them a few weeks ago. I hope they realize that speed is of the essence!
Zico, fully agree. It is strange to see that Braathens is expecting a whole diffrent attitude from SAS than the one they themselves showed Malmö Aviation when they aquired them....
A little humbleness would be expected....
Any news as to what the latest on this is.....?
After yesterdays press conference, surely there must be some news regarding this thread?
Fizze
15th May 2002, 18:51
I think Commuter will eventually go bust, They have never been making a profit. SAS airline have paid so many things for them its crazy, like de-icing using there operations in many ways. Outsorcing will be the word in the future. I think we all se where we are going.
That would be sad for the entire scandinavian pilot community, if outsourcing will be the name of the game in the future....... I hope the various pilot unions wake up and smell the coffee!
penguin
15th May 2002, 23:42
If Cimber picks up the slack, do you consider that to be outsourcing?
pilot18
16th May 2002, 14:34
There are a lot of misunderstandings considering the relationship between SAS and SC. SC is not supposed to make a profit. The money we have left at the end of the year goes to SAS. If SC is in the red, we get money. The only function of SC is to fly smaller routes with smaller airplanes with a smaller overhead cost(admin etc etc), than SAS.And, of course, the pilots and C/A get a smaller paycheck. When media describes SAS Airline, it'
s really SAS/SC. Flight deck are recruited together, then you get placed on 737, MD80, or Q400. Thus, the same sen. list. In this particular case, SAS has decided that the A/C type Q400 is to fly a certain number of sectors, requering a certain number of Q400 and, a certain number of pilots. Since Q400 pilots are legally hired by a different company, SC, than 737 pilots, we are fired and my buddy gets 50%. That is the deal today. Good or bad.
Oh, SC are not allowed to seek extra production for our extra 2 Q400. Anyone want a wetlease...?
SAS Airline (not included SC) have taken care of their pilots. SAS Commuter have not....there is the REAL difference between the two companies.
Best regards..
:mad:
Penguin, I'm not sure excactly what you mean, but if you mean that Cimber picks up what SAS is abondoning and SAS keeps flying thier pax with Cimber, as codeshare, yeah I do consider that a kind of outsourcing. My point is that if the unions allow the larger companies to drop routes to the benifit of smaller ones within the same "co-operation", in the long run the working conditions for the entire pilot community in scandinavia will be lower. Every smaller airline's unions look to the bigger airlines when they cut deals and value their workforce's "worth" and thereby, if we allow a larger amount of production being flown at a lesser "cost" (read pilot salary, worse union deal etc) the overall standard for the pilot community will be lower. Soon Cimber's pilots will see there own production being taken by a company where the production is even cheaper ie. even lesser paid pilots with worse union deals etc. Therefore my opinion is that the unions should work towards initially strive to have the "original" production supplier slim their operations a much as possible before giving it up to lesser paid pilots (productions suppliers). Im not saying that production that is totally un-economical for a company to fly, should be held on to, but if you look att SC work loss contra the pick up for Wideroe and Braathens that is morally wrong and will lessen the union deal standards in the long run.
Secondly a think it is a shame what the SC union is doing to their pilots compared to SAS Airline. It is time to put pressure on your union representatives!
pilot18
17th May 2002, 07:36
oh...and by the way...it's the same union....SAS First officer section ( SAS FO and SC pilots).....
These are very interesting times indeed....:)