Hour building (Merged 2013)

[MatteoLIPH]

hello, looking for your experience about the best place to make hour building in 1month on august 2013. I heard about places that are cheaper than others (ormond, long beach..)but somebody had problems regarding availability of airplanes, prices shonwn and then once there they lift up..i can t waste time due to my work so i need some place that you suggest!

thank you

[Live your dream]

I am in the same situation as you, I will probably go this summer. The best flight school I have found is Florida-Flyers.

If you are looking for someone to fly with, let me know.

Cheers!

[MatteoLIPH]

i will have a look on this..! found air america that seems good but looking for some feedback! then chandler, ncd, long beach..i don't know which one i should consider better than the others..

[Live your dream]

All I have heard about them is good, no problems at all! I will go there if I do not find another better school, although there is a problem due to the weather in summer.

[MatteoLIPH]

i guess that for example california would be better during summer..don t know..anyone can help us..?:)

[Hitbacker]

I had one for Wichita-LA-Wichita (Cessna 172 with Garmin 430, 100 $ wet), put 40 hrs in her in about 8 days and they were quite happy to help me out.

Prairie Air Service has a 152 at - last info I have - 80 $ per hour wet, if it is not too busy in basic training (it usually isn't) that might be an option as well. It must not always be Arizona, Florida or California. Go down to the Gulf Coast or fly x/c elsewhere, there are plenty of beautiful small airports. Personal pick up at the airport at no extra charge, some checkout and familiarization, some good hints and off you go. Enjoy! Or save even more money by finding a companion stateside that will go hourbuilding with you, you go under the hood, he gets safety pilot credit with the FAA regulation (and since you have the control of the aircraft, he only the eyes, you can split the cost 50-50.

[BigGrecian]

Or save even more money by finding a companion stateside that will go hourbuilding with you, you go under the hood, he gets safety pilot credit with the FAA regulation (and since you have the control of the aircraft, he only the eyes, you can split the cost 50-50.

The flight time you refer to is not loggable under EASA regulations.

You are referring to a rule for FAR 91.119 which is for FAA licesning.

Don't confuse the two.

Logging of Flight Hours gained in the USA

Some flight hour recording practices allowable in the USA do not comply with
European and UK requirements. In particular:
• 2 pilots flying together in a single pilot aircraft both claiming P1 hours;
• One pilot accompanying another on newsgathering or traffic control flights and
claiming P1/PIC when they have not acted as Captain or signed for the aircraft.

Flying hours of this nature cannot be credited towards the requirements for Part-FCL or UK Licences.

I know pilots who have had applications rejected trying to claim such hours.

[MatteoLIPH]

so if i have a jaa ppl and i convert it to faa ppl for 1month then i come back to italy with my 90hours of buikding time and somebody can tell me that hours are not valid because i flew under faa regulations? how can my authories declare that i ve done those hours shared with somebody else..?

[BigGrecian]

They are valid as long as you don't do what HitBacker says regarding the hood.

Get the school to stamp your logbook - that helps too!

[Live your dream]

What is not allowed here in Europe are those hours as shared time, only PIC hours are valid. Although there are lots of people who have done Shared Time and with some tricks their hours have been accepted.

[MatteoLIPH]

i guess that the only things you need to do is to have a validation from the school and not to write on your logbook that you ve done those hours shared..isn't it? looking for somebody who has done in this way..! if you write hours as pic and yo do not add anything else how can the authorities know if you were solo or not..?

[zondaracer]

Under European rules, there is only 1 PIC. Under FAA rules, two people can log PIC technically under certain circumstances.

Your hours are valid depending on which rules you are applying. If you have two people flying and one guy using the view limiting device, then your hours are valid under FAA rules, but if you try to apply them towards a JAA license or JAA job, only one person in that operation can count those hours. Makes sense?

[zondaracer]

i guess that the only things you need to do is to have a validation from the school and not to write on your logbook that you ve done those hours shared..isn't it? looking for somebody who has done in this way..! if you write hours as pic and yo do not add anything else how can the authorities know if you were solo or not..? It is called integrity. You either choose to have integrity or choose not to. If you don't have integrity, you might get away with it, but that is not the kind of person I want to fly with. I know some people who have their own "interpretation" of the regulations and have used "tricks" to make the time count, but honestly, I don't agree.

Also, under FAA rules, part 61.51 says you must log:
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by § 91.109 of this chapter.so if you don't write the name of the safety pilot, then it is a violation of the regulation.

Of course if you want to just log the time hoping that the "authorities not know if you were solo/PIC," how is that different then just making up fake hours in your logbook? :=

There is a well defined line between legal and not legal. It is up to you to choose which side you will stay on. I know what kind of pilot I would rather have flying along side me. Don't be such a cheapskate, fork out the money necessary to log your time legally and properly, have some integrity, and when in doubt, log conservatively.

[MatteoLIPH]

it is not my intention to fly with someone else..i cannot waste money and time if authorities here in italy will not accept logged hours so i need to know how it really has to be done..as i newbie i was asking and thinking about this hood solution as it seems to be interesting thinking about money and experience..i think that flying with someone else can help more than flying alone. and also i read about schools that offer this type of solution with no problems..maybe they know how to validate hours with no problems for european hour builders..don t know! i thank anyone who would help with thei experiences in the usa..

[Live your dream]

As I said before, people who has made theirs hours as shared time had to use some tricks to cheat authorities. But they have got it. Probably the school has the answer.
I think fly with someone else is good if you want to save costs regarding accommodation, food, rent a car,etc...

[BigGrecian]

! i thank anyone who would help with thei experiences in the usa..

We have help you and we have told you it's not allowed....or are you going to keep asking until someone gives you the answer you want?

[zondaracer]

maybe they know how to validate hours with no problems for european hour builders..When I first started my training, I did not know that I would end up in Europe. I logged all my hours according to the FAA regulations. Then, later on, I realized I had the opportunity to live in Europe. When I got to Europe, I found out that a lot of my PIC time did not count as PIC time under European rules. I had to go back through my logbook and addup all my hours again according to European rules. It took me about two days. Not only that, what seemed like a lot of PIC hours under FAA rules come out to barely having enough PIC hours under JAA rules to qualify for a CPL conversion. It is a good thing that I did not do the safety pilot trick at all during my hour building or I would have been given a rude awakening.

Any European school you go to will not find some "trick" to count your hours. They WILL be able to tell you which hours are valid and which are not.

Like BigGrecian said, you already have your answer in the previous posts.

[Hitbacker]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804Jan2013.pdf

Found it, and actually have not done it myself - thanks for pointing it out!

The thought occurred that if the PIC is signing off on the aircraft and him being the sole manipulator of the controls, the stateside guy would get his advantage out of his local regulation and you still are PIC. Now, trick question: There was a flight that was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC? By CAA account, do they toss a coin? Or is the safety pilot PIC for air-to-air collision, while the guy flying would be responsible e.g. for an empty tank?

The interpretation of the CAA does not convince me from a legal point of view (and since not two EASA-country flyboys share the cockpit) - but why risk arguing with them.

As for the practical value: Sharing the cockpit under the hood is MCC at its earliest and best, but obviously this is only about legal logging of flight time. My 40 hrs of solo flying from Wichita to LA and back taught me a lot, so there's merit to both schools of thought. Anyhow, commercial (under part 61) in the States is 250 hrs vs. EASA land is 200. So that evens it out ;-).

[zondaracer]

There was a flight that was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC?

Depends who has a better lawyer. In reality, they would look at who was assuming PIC before the flight, OR who signed out for the aircraft, who was manipulating the controls, who paid for the rental (who the owner was), which name was on the flight plan if filed, etc...

Typically though, the pilot under the hood can log PIC the entire flight and the safety pilot can only log flight time while the other pilot is under the hood during VMC conditions. Once the hood comes off or once the aircraft is in IMC conditions, the safety pilot is no longer a required crew member and can no longer log the time.

[MatteoLIPH]

understood that the trick is not allowed and i ll search for a school that will assure only solo flights. with "i thank anybody who will help me" i was referring to their experiences with usa flight schools in order to choose the best way..i wrote to many schools and prices are more or less the same but i can t decide without the help of somebody who went there and made hour building..in this sense experience..! i would like to know which i have to avoid for your bad experiences..thanks

[selfin]

... the PIC is signing off on the aircraft and [he is] the sole manipulator of the controls ... [and the] flight ... was legal in a SEP in the States, an accident occurs, who is PIC?

The safety pilot required during simulated instrument flying under Part 91, done in accordance with the instrument flight rules, must be the pilot in command unless the other pilot holds a valid and appropriate instrument rating, in which case the safety pilot may still be the pilot in command if his own licence and its ratings are valid and appropriate, subject to his agreeing to the role with the other pilot.

If the simulated instrument flying is done in accordance with the visual flight rules then either pilot may elect to be the pilot in command.

If either operation is categorised as an instructional flight then the person on board being a certificated flight instructor will be the pilot in command. If both pilots are certificated flight instructors then the position of pilot in command must be decided upon by them.

Additionally the pilot possessing the higher level of pilot certificate may be held jointly liable for a breach of the FARs caused by the nominated pilot in command. See NTSB Order No. EA-4537 (1997) (http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4537.pdf). The pilot in command is responsible despite him neither operating the controls nor directing the flight.

These rules and precedents are specific to the jurisdiction of the United States. They are covered in greater detail, with the relevant citations, by Speciale & Venhuizen's article "The Pilot in Command and the FARS: The Buck Stops Here (Almost Always)," 83 North Dakota Law Review 817 (http://web.law.und.edu/lawreview/issues/web_assets/pdf/83/83-3/83NDLR817.pdf).

The interpretation of the CAA does not convince me from a legal point of view (and since not two EASA-country flyboys share the cockpit) - but why risk arguing with them.

Let's have a look at a particular sort of flight regulated by US rules.

Take the example of two pilots: Pilot P and Pilot S. Both are US-certificated private pilots with valid SEP land ratings and embark on a private flight in a US-registered aeroplane conducting the operation under Part 91 rules in US airspace. Pilot P wishes to do simulated instrument flying and Pilot S offers to act as the safety pilot. Neither pilot holds an instrument rating and therefore the flight will be done in visual met. conditions under the visual flight rules. We'll assume Pilot S does not manipulate the controls during the flight. There are now two ways these pilots can arrange their roles.

Scenario 1: Pilot P as pilot in command.

Pilot P as the sole manipulator of the controls logs the flight as PIC time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

Pilot S is a required flight crew member while Pilot P operates under simulated instrument flight conditions, 14 CFR 91.109(c). Pilot S logs, as SIC time pursuant to 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2), nothing except that portion of the flight during which he acted as a required safety pilot.

Scenario 2: Pilot S as pilot in command.

As in scenario 1, pilot P as the sole manipulator of the controls logs the flight as PIC time.

Pilot S is acting as the pilot in command during an operation requiring two pilots so logs the flight as PIC time also compliments of 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iii).

See FAA Office of Chief Counsel's legal interpretations to Louis Glenn (2009) (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis%20Glenn.pdf) & Beaty (2013) (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/Beaty.pdf), et ors.

The EASA position is governed by Part-FCL:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time

The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

The UK has established the form and manner it accepts in CAP 804. For EASA Part-FCL purposes, specifically when the UK CAA is the competent authority, Pilot P can log PIC time under only scenario 1 and Pilot S only under scenario 2.

Nevertheless the Acceptable Means of Compliance & Guidance Material [link (http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/acceptable-means-of-compliance-and-guidance-material.php#Part-FCL)] to Part-FCL uses language similar to that found in 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2). It states:

AMC1 to FCL.050

(b)(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

CAP 804 lifts this paragraph straight out of the AMC. There may therefore, for whatever it's worth, be a basis for SIC/co-pilot time to be logged for EASA/UK purposes.

[BigGrecian]

on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft

Agreed - but it wouldn't count towards any licence issue requirement which is what the CAA are stating.

[MatteoLIPH]

Thanks a lot for your replies i thank for fast and exaustive explanations :) Now i wrote to those schools and i would like to know if anybody in this forum went there:

AIR AMERICA
CHANDLER
EASA
FLORIDA FLYERS
LONG BEACH
SKYEAGLE

Prices are more or less the same, maybe ormond beach and air america are cheaper, but i cannot decide. I have 30 days at maximum, i will be free in august. Anybody went on one of those and would be so gentle to wrote his/her experience?? :) Of course if you recommend any other school i'll be extremely happy! In this way i'll be able to select...

Thank you

[selfin]

Agreed - but it wouldn't count towards any licence issue requirement which is what the CAA are stating.

The UK CAA has clearly stated it does not recognise two pilots simultaneously logging PIC time as in scenario 2 above.

Returning to the AMC (unmodified by CAP804):

... the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted

Since US Part 91 regulations require more than one pilot during simulated instrument flight it seems reasonable that the safey pilot in scenario 1, being a required pilot, is entitled under EASA rules to log the appropriate flight portion as co-pilot time.

The EASA Aircrew Regulation requires candidates to have "completed 150 hours flight time" prior to commencing a modular course for the CPL(A) and to have completed 200 hours flight time before licence issuance. It appears the safety pilot in scenario 1 may count his co-pilot time towards those EASA licences and rating requiring some number of hours of "flight time."

[wild goose]

Can anyone advise where one can get a quote for a 100 hr block of "dry" hours?
Everyone seems to be quoting wet...
The idea is to go flying all over the US - and therefore I need dry.

[zondaracer]

Many places will reimburse you for the fuel up to the cost of the local fuel rate. You would be hard pressed to find a place to quote a dry rate.

[BigGrecian]

Can anyone advise where one can get a quote for a 100 hr block of "dry" hours?

Pilots Paradise | USA Flying Holidays (http://www.pilots-paradise.com) seems to get good write ups.

[selfin]

Pilots Paradise | USA Flying Holidays seems to get good write ups.

I don't suppose you work for the same company which employs Stephen Fisher?

[zerotohero]

Its been a good few years since I was there now so someone else will be better than me to help out I recon but that does sound cheap for a rent with fuel, having said that if you can find a private owner for a block rental you could get that sort of figure I guess

might be worth calling some flight schools and airfields and telling the guys on the front desk what your after as their sure to know of people with aircraft willing to do this.

[Live your dream]

The only flight school I have heard about is Florida-Flyers, I will probably go there in summer. The worst, I think, is the weather in summer. If someone knows another good flight school, please let us know.

[keogh90]

Hay im an irish student pilot, will be in florida this summer, wondering if any like-minded young folk from Ireland or elsewhere will be there and any tips?

[keogh90]

Hay im heading out there for three months on J1, have looked at similar schools, daytona beach and orlando look good places, give us a shout if you want to compare notes, student pilot, 56 hours.

[JQKA]

Live your dream,
I don't know where you heard about that, cause is one of the less mentioned school, but you are RIGHT!:ok::ok:
The enviroment is perfect for all your needs!
I Suggest this School to everybody.
Please if anybody is going there , let me know, as i want to leave a message to be forwarded to the owner of the Flight school.
Thanks

[JQKA]

Is not just matter of money, but everything in floryda flyers school is good for us (as pilot).
You are free to do what ever you want and for time limited is the best option!! Time building is perfect there! and so the location
good School

[go around flaps15]

I did my hour building with a few friends in San Diego nearly 6 years ago now. Went to Anglo American which is situated on Gillespie Airfield. We flew to Vegas, Big Bear, Catalina Island, Palm Springs and loads of other little trips in between.

Good school, great weather, and decent aircraft at decent rates. First time I ever used an autopilot(a very basic one) was on a Cessna 182 N21019.

Can still remember the reg clear as mud.

If that's not Nostalgia I don't know what is.

Would recommend!