Flexicrew details?

[Buggington]

Hello :)

I'm looking into doing an Integrated course at CTC, hopefully next year once I leave college. I understand that the vast majority of their graduates move into their holding pool system, where they can (possibly) be transferred to Flexicrew.

I know that Flexicrew gives an 'allowance' of £1000-£1200 a month (allowance as in pocket money?), which is deplorable, and that they normally have T's & C's to match. :sad:

What I don't understand is the 'ownership' of this Flexicrew system - in an email from CTC they say the following "You generally receive an allowance during your 6-8 months line training of £1000 - 1200 per month and are employed by ARL once you go on to a permanent FlexiCrew Contract." I've also seen on some other parts of this forum that you can be on a Flexicrew contract and still be employed by CTC or Parc or whoever.

I was previously under the impression that Flexicrew was something that EasyJet owned, but apparently not, so would someone be able to clarify this please?

Thanks :D

[ROSCO328]

Tell me where does a student get £100k plus these days?:ugh:.

[greywind]

All flexi crew are either self employed or employed by ARL (Airline Recruitment Limited).
The self employed guys contract to easyJet via Parc.
As for ARL and CTC people generally don't distinguish between the two but any reference to CTC flexi crew or the like is referring to those employed by ARL.

[vrb03kt]

So you know that after you finish you will probably end up as a casual worker earning barely pocket money. Presumably you also know how much this course costs for the possibility of being a casual worker. Yet you still want to pursue this?

I realise I haven't answered your question, but I am curious as to why people are still signing up for such a bad deal when all the facts are there on these forums, and now on the BALPA website as well.

[Buggington]

VRB: I can understand your confusion, and I want to be a pilot. That's the only reason I would take on a stupid amount of debt.

Fingers crossed, after a couple of years building hours at Easy or similar, I can get a job somewhere else and start earning some (real) money. That's the plan. Let's face it, this is probably the best time for me to do this, while I don't have a house, family and other financial pressures to worry about.

Greywind: Excellent, that answers the question. Thanks :ok:

ROSCO: Loan from the BBVA, assuming that wasn't a sarcastic/rhetorical question.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Whilst the uniform might look good in the supermarket, if you fail to make a BBVA payment, your parents WILL loose their home!

Think on.

[mushingstall]

The latest permanent contracts that Ezy are handing out equate roughly to a £10,000 paycut. That's including pension and any extras.

Of course it won't get any worse than this:ugh:...

[VIRGA]

and the cancer continues

[mushingstall]

Also remember to take any figure you think you may earn on Flexicrew and multiply by 0.75 should Ezy send you home for 3 months during the winter.

How are you going to pay back the loan that's secured on your parents house with no income for a quarter of the year?!

[WhyByFlier]

Pensions will not exist by 2050, expert warns - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/9741893/Pensions-will-not-exist-by-2050-expert-warns.html)

And it's because of :mad: contracts like this.

Grow a brain and don't sign up for this. Go to Singapore, China, Middle East or whatever. Europe is a disgusting cesspit full of hypocritical people that think its alright if they're alright and then with the next breath have their hands out.

Audrey Hepburn said we have two hands - one to help ourselves and one to help others. Well, Whybyflier says Europeans have two hands - one to help themselves and one to take from others.

Get a grip people and start taking responsibilty for your actions.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Buggington,

Why, on earth, do you want to be a pilot?

I can understand why someone wants to go flying, but in the current collapse with no way out, why would you sign up to this nightmare?

[bucket_and_spade]

I was lucky and tagged by an airline during training. I graduated and, again, was very lucky and went straight in to a full-time, permanent job as an FO earning slightly above industry-standard (early 2008) money. I had to take on a loan of around £60k to finance the course - it is manageable but, after 5 years of repayment, I still have (unless I overpay) 6 YEARS left of repayment.

I have been lucky and everything worked out as planned HOWEVER I didn't, back during training, fully appreciate the size of this loan commitment with the benefit of hindsight. I'm now engaged and looking to buy a famly home - this loan commitment is having a HUGE bearing on my ability to get a mortgage in the SE of the UK in a decent area.

I knew what I was signing up for, everything went to plan and I am well paid. I am not, by any stretch, a low earner BUT I still have to compromise on lifestyle as a result of the loan.

My point is that loans of this magnitude WILL have a huge impact on your life for years. Just some candid, hopefully useful, feedback from someone who knows. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying don't do it, I'm not saying I necessarily regret it, I'm just saying that even with my eyes wide open beforehand I am still sometimes frustrated by it's shadow over my life - things will just take that bit longer.

[Globalstream]

I am utterly incredulous any intelligent, confident, self respecting child would think of signing up for such a proposition.

For gads sake, invest your energy and money in a profitable endeavor- you are staring at a possible financial abyss that threatens to blight your life and anyone connected with it.

[Piloto2011]

It's flexiScrew.

The latest trend I hear is quite a few ex CTC just swapping for a clean sheet by declaring bankruptcy? Anyone know people personally? If so, great, tax payers picking up the bill. It's a disgrace.

My dear Buggington:

You shall be forgiven your sin, for it's the sin of youth.

So you want to "build time" on a jet? It was once upon a time that flying a jet, in many, if not most, parts of the world, came after years of working the GA. Hell, some guys took most of their entire careers before finally entering that stage.

In the Monarch threat, people report of candidates in the latest interview round being in their 40s and 50s.

There is clearly no rush.

EZY and RYR stopped expansion. There just isn't many opportunities. As proof, just monitor OAA's employment stats for this year.

Word is EK hold 2,000 CVs on file from people with tons of hours from all over the world. Over the past years, fast track progression may have been possible for a few ex RYR and EZY, but it will only get harder.

One guy in another thread was saying that CTC had started to inform people swimming in their ATP pool that there is no jobs for them in 2013. Their main cadets are looking at a wait until summer. At least. They may then get picked up. Again, that is they may.

While indeed it seems CTC have had a 100 percent placement record, who guarantees you that it will be like that forever? I certainly would not put my parents' house on it.

All it takes is very little disruption and boom, the industry is on its knees.

If someone wants to enter this profession, please, do so. Because only if you truly love what you do, you can develop that ultimate passion to succeed and put up with a ton of BS.

But when you decide to go for it, do it wisely.

Do something else first. Go get a degree. Learn a trade. Get just a plain, simple job. Learn appreciate the value of money first. While still living at home with no bills to pay, save enough money to cover your PPL. Then go from there. Try to get into one of those tagged programs. If you fail in doing that save some more and do your hour building, then your ATPLs.

It may take you all your 20s to complete these first three steps, and boy it is so not glamorous and requires so much commitment and self-discipline, but trust me on that one, it'll put you in a way much better spot.

In my book, a successful career already starts way before receiving your very first hour of flight training.

[Buggington]

I've got to say, I'm overwhelmed with the negative response to this. I realised that things were far from perfect, but the deluge of negativity (realism?) has definitely made me stop in my tracks.

First of all, I'd like to point out that I am aware of the level of debt that this could get me into. I understand that it will make life hard for the first couple of years, but the plan was to live at home and over pay until it was done. Hopefully by then my salary would have risen, and I could get a life.

Since the beginning of that plan, I've looked into the Flexicrew salaries, and seen how :mad: they are. That's put a spanner in the works, to say the least.

In response to Piloto's comment about the jets - I don't necessarily plan to go straight into jets. I think I just assumed that I would go straight into the likes of EasyJet, but I wouldn't mind flying freight or props.

It's safe to say that flying as originally planned won't work. Does anyone know what the situation is like in the regional airlines (i.e. props) or freight? Given that it's a bit different to what everyone thinks of when they talk about being a pilot, maybe there's less competition?

[SEAMASTER]

Buggington said :
but I wouldn't mind flying freight or props.

He also said :
Does anyone know what the situation is like in the regional airlines (i.e. props) or freight? Given that it's a bit different to what everyone thinks of when they talk about being a pilot, maybe there's less competition?

Buggington, you are so funny, I'm splitting my sides here !!! Try telling the guys who fly Q400's, SAAB 340's or ATR's how easy it must be getting those jobs whilst there is a little less competition !! What is your scheduled finnish date ? Drop me a line when your done and I'll put a good word in to my fleet manager and with a nod and a wink you can come and join me flying the A330 !! Easy peesy !!

[MaxReheat]

Buggington

I notice you are only 17 and that is excuse enough for the extreme naivity you display.

The airline industry, in Europe, is in a dire position. It is impossible for anyone, and that means you, as well, to 'plan' a career because the well-worn system of entering airlines has been destroyed in the past 10years by the likes of the very system you espoused, in your initial post, to join.

Even the traditional route into the turbo prop operations are severely restricted and where are thes airlines? The UK has a monopoly turbo airline; that is financial dificulty and is making crew redundant.

Please read the thousands of wise words written in these fora by people who have been there, done it or tried to do it, and still have the blood on their tee-shirts.

This is not the right time to embark on a career as an airline pilot. Until such time as the mythical 'pilot shortage' occurs, stay put in any career that will not put an immeasurably heavy albatross around your neck.

[Buggington]

Seamaster: My sarcasm senses are twitching. I'm glad I amuse though, assuming that wasn't also sarcasm.

I apologise if I'm being rude and annoying people with my naivety. Sadly, it's only from the advice of you guys that I can learn what it's really like out there. Up until maybe about a week ago I thought the worst I could face when I left the likes of CTC was a six - nine month wait in their hold pool.

Max: I'm really not sure what to say. Flying is all I've wanted to do, and
so thinking up an alternative is pretty hard to do.

A lot of people on here are suggesting that I go to university and think about my options. The trouble is that as it is I'm not enjoying college. I doubt I'm going to like university much more, especially when I have to spend £60k on it. I've been to the open days at a few different universities, looking at their Aerospace Engineering courses, but there just wasn't anything there that made me want to go.

I realise that there's cruel irony in what I just said about paying for university, considering I was thinking of spending £100k on training, but at least (previously, or the way that CTC/OAA are selling it) there was a job at the end of it.

Also, Max, if you think I'm naive, try going to the CTC and OAA open days. The naivety of the current cadets there is quite amazing - one of the guys I spoke to couldn't even give me a typical starting salary, and didn't know anything about the holding pool situation. I suspect that these are probably the types of people that most of the experienced pilots in the industry are basing the CTC graduates on.

Anyway, the main point of this post was that I don't know quite what to do if not flying. :sad:

[WhyByFlier]

Do a maths degree, work hard, don't get distracted - go work for a bank - they're immortal. If they run out of more then they print more. Job done.

[bucket_and_spade]

I'm not sure Buggington, at 17, needs to be informed about things in quite the, erm, 'impassioned' way in which some are replying. There are a lot of home truths in replies on this thread, mine included, but steady on guys! Most of the pro pilots on this thread will have had dreams and plans just like Buggington's, minus the insider knowledge...again, just like Buggington.

It is a very tough climate at the minute, I joined the industry just before the economic meltdown in 2008 and when I started flying training the landscape was VERY different.

Ultimately everyone has to make their own decision after proper research, risk assessment and a healthy dose of soul-searching!

My advice would, humbly, be - if you haven't already, get some flying experience. I had a PPL before being fortunate enough to get on a tagged scheme. I also had a uni degree (like many in the general work force now) which is useful as a backup and puts your CV slightly higher up the pile.

I'm not sure what the status of the BA FPP scheme is at the minute but it seems to be the way that BA want to recruit their low-hour pilots at the moment. If you can get some kind of intent from an employer before you train (if that's what you do) then I think that's the ideal situation.

As frustrating as it is to delay what you want to do (fly!) most of the successful applicants on my course (not BA) and, I suspect, most of those successful in getting a spot on the BA FPP programme/other tagged schemes will be similar, were in their 20s, had a few years of work experience, had been to university and had flying experience of some sort.

All these things round you as a person/potential employee, give you more options in case your ambitions change (or the world goes against you) and make you much more competitive if you do aim for 'sponsored' schemes in the future. Subjectively, it SEEMED that those who trained where I did and had come straight from school to training were those least likely to go straight in to flying jobs (even when flying jobs were more plentiful) upon graduation.

I know uni funding has changed recently but I think there is a bit of misunderstanding among some - as I understand it, it can still be financed by an income-contingent loan i.e. you only pay back when you earn enough to pay back?

Lastly - a few of my friends who started airline flying at a similar time to myself are pondering or actively researching a change of career. Various reasons - mostly revolving around the job not being what they expected or the (often) lack of stability, clear career progression, etc. Not the majority by any stretch but a decent handful. The positives still far outweigh the negatives for me at the minute but I do ponder the future and what the job will be in years to come...

I think it's very much about contingency planning and having backup/escape plans...a bit like flying!

Anyway, good luck with your musings :ok:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Does anyone know what the situation is like in the regional airlines (i.e. props) or freight? Given that it's a bit different to what everyone thinks of when they talk about being a pilot

What's regional and freight different to and why is it different?

[Buggington]

Spandex Masher: First off, brilliant name.

I think when I said regional I might have used the wrong term. Perhaps I should have simply said props. Anyway, when I said different, I meant that when you say pilot, I think EasyJet or BA, flying Boeings or Airbuses.

As Seamaster said, I was wrong in thinking there was much of a difference in terms of job opportunities.

Bucket & Spade: Thanks for defending me a little there - it's a bit tough to have all these home truths land in your inbox in one hit!

I have got some experience - I'm working towards my NPPL, which is progressing slightly slower than I would have liked due to college and general time constraints, but it's a start and has shown that I don't become as sick as a parrot once I get in a cockpit.

Maybe I should elaborate on my master plan a little. Once I leave college (having done my A-Levels) I hope to go to work for a bit while I apply to the likes of BA future pilot schemes. It may be a long shot, but I might as well try. I think it opens again in November, which is perfect for me. Following that, the plan was to apply to the likes of CTC and see what happened after that.

Your understanding of the student finance system is correct, but still, £60,000 of my money will eventually be spent on something I am unlikely to enjoy.

Interesting what you say about "It SEEMED that those who trained where I did and had come straight from school to training were those least likely to go straight in to flying jobs." I'm not quite sure what to say to that.

[bucket_and_spade]

Hi again B,

I should emphasise I have no stats to back up my perception about those who had done little else before training and job success but from your last post you won't be in that bracket anyway! The guys I am thinking about did A levels and then came straight on to a CPL/IR course having never even done a trial flight or much else...and they'd just signed up for a £60k flying course!

Plus, there were those who did go straight from school to flying training to jobs with top UK airlines.

Don't worry too much about slow progress - took me 2 years to get the PPL as I was on pretty measly money at the time!

Good luck with BA FPP.

[truckflyer]

Flexicrew TC's - CTC extortionate tuition fees, and Ultra - Low "salaries", how does this differ from P2F?

It is just a different way to distribute the money!

Buggington: First thing you should do is get a class 1 medical, before even thinking about anything else!
You have not elaborated about your parents view of an £100.000 secured loan, this is not the same kind of loan that you would get to study at university! This is a loan that will haunt you until you die if you fail! One of the reasons that when I was 20 I stopped flying, as I did not want to take that responsibility on my families house, even though I could have easily sold my mother the story of infinite riches of becoming an airline pilot, but we are talking about 1990 and not 2012!

Now you should study some more threads on PPRUNE, before you think you have found the golden port!

Like this one:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/508028-3000-jet-hours-not-enough-interview.html

Those "better jobs" are getting fewer in between, I know loads of guys in my company, with thousands of hours, command bla bla, and not getting those "great job" - So get ready for a long wait!!!

The BA program is the best, if you can get in with that, it is probably the best chance you will ever have in todays market, if not, be careful, as soon as you finish with CTC, there are no more guarantees, they can NOT guarantee you anything! But who cares, they then already have your money!

[Buggington]

Good plan. I've often thought about doing it, but never quite got round to it. There hasn't been anything massively obvious in my family, otherwise it would have been right to the top of the list.

I've never sold my parents the story of "infinite riches". Never. My parents are completely in the loop, have been to all the finance talks at CTC and are fully aware of the risks.

The thing that really concerns me about this career is the potential to fail before I even start.

I have been doing research on various threads, and I'm discovering that it's not really going much better for anyone else.

I'd agree with the BA program being the best - I understand that BA are supposed to be the best UK airline to work for, although Monarch are also pretty good. (not sure how their salary compares).

[truckflyer]

First seeking / getting finance advice from CTC? Seriously?

They will not care, they just want your money, and believe me, I have been in business for 20 years, anything can be made to seem achievable, as long as the "right" manipulation of numbers are presented!

You are young, and what guys here are telling you, do not put all your eggs in one basket! The industry is full of guys who have ended up spending much more than the FTO!
A friend of mine, went to OAA, than paid his own TR, paid line training hours, and than paid more line training hours, in the end he got a job, but.... long time after he had spent close to £150.000! And he is making £1500 - £2000 a month, do the maths!

The potential to fail lies inside yourself, unless you get into BA program, forget the integrated course, in my honest opinion! So far you have been sold a dream, but with your age, don't get lost in their sales tricks!

First there is NO pilot shortage, NO pilot shortage upcoming, unless you have loads of experience, that is how they manipulate the truth!

I would always recommend modular, get do a FIC, work in the grass-roots for few years, and it is still possible, I have seen loads of guys the last 18 months get better jobs this way recently!

You see, your head is not in the right place, you do not really see what is going on, doing this for the money, yes of course, but you can forget to think about money for the next 5 - 10 years, that's how bad it gets!

Thinking about Monarch etc., first you need to have rating, experience, an interview - one step first!

As a pilot you get a very limited set of skills, not to be used for much else to be honest, build your skills now, fly for fun, build hours, instruct etc., study something that can be good, for the day you are searching for the flying job, so you can still manage your debts, and survive those years until you get a good job! If you ever manage, that's the truth and reality, I know these CTC and OAA, like to put photos of students they had with jobs, but they do not put the pictures of the guys who did not get jobs, who have left the business after leaving £100.000 with these FTO's, and having to either work at Tescos or go back to school and get another skill!

One guy I knew from OAA, in his class of 25, 3 had jobs, and that was with RYR, the rest had nothing!
When the money is gone, you have burnt your bridges for better ways to achieve your goals!
With CTC, don't get fooled by their golden promises, you know what they will say, words that are so hollow, but making sure you believe in yourself enough that you will part with your money!

Because you are special? Different than the other thousands swimming around in a enormous pool of Wannabe pilots desperate to sell their soul to the devil to get anything remotely similar to a flying job!

Regarding the medical, it does not need to be something obvious in your family, still there might always be something, many have had their dreams shattered for things they never considered an issue! First step before you even dream about this is class 1 medical!
Can be colour vision, EKG tests etc., you never know until it is done!

[Artie Fufkin]

I see we still love those exclamation marks, Truckflyer.

[Piloto2011]

He does, doesn't he? :P

However, I could not agree more with what truckflyer says.

Buggington,

You are so young, you have all the time in the world to set yourself up nicely.

The trick is, be prepared for a long wait at every stage during your career. So make sure life stays fairly enjoyable. This may start with having low debts so you can have a life.

People said it before, those in easy may fly a jet, yes, but they struggle along financially. And for a long time to come. People said it before, fewer and fewer left seat opportunities or opportunities elsewhere.

Now remember, while many people warn against entering this industry I'd like to point out there'll always be the very fortunate, wealthy among us. They will always fly. And they will always want their pilots to be on excellent Ts and Cs. I claim this will not change. But to get a job like this you need to work in the industry to meet the people already in. And you don't need the hours or rating. I've seen it happening.

So, start at the bottom. Mitigate risk of failure by reducing your investment. Enjoy the ride. And keep looking for the next step.

Friend of mine had just finished high school and worked several month nightshifts in a local factory as a packer. He then left for America and got his PPL. Returned to factory working some more and did his hour building. Same for ATPLs. Took him two to three years I believe. He then borrowed the rest including instructor rating. Got picked up as an instructor in the U.S., did that for a couple of years only to then get hired onto a 73 in Europe.

Admittedly this was before 2008 so better times for him but he never had much debt and walked straight into the job while being able to live life.

Last I'd like to point this one out: those integrated courses are highly competitive. Instructors will put a lot of pressure on you to complete every lesson satisfactorily. All the while the burden of 90k is hanging over your head. And ticking. This type of environment may not be for everyone.

[G.S. Willy]

Truckflyer and Piloto are giving you good advice Buddington.
CTC Will present to you a "best case scenario" that does not exist anymore.
The chance of you ending up unemployed and heavily in dept along with thousands of others is overwhelming.

I have been in this business for 27 years, in those years I have heard the rumours of pilot shortage several times, it never surfaced.

There is a shortage of experienced pilots in India and China, where the growth will still continue for many years, but to get a job there you already have to be an experienced captain.

I work in China, it's Ok, but I always fight fatigue, due to many sectors and split duty. As for any glory, forget about it, I spend all my nights down route in ****ty hotels with minimum rest.

I have kids, not much younger than you, they have not seen their father much in the last years. I am happy to say that none of them are expressing any interest in following in my footsteps, and if they did, I would talk them out of it. If I would fail to talk them out of it, I would most certainly refuse to put up any money for their training.

You have a dream that most likely will turn into a nightmare, not only for you, but also your family that might be held responsible for your dept.

Get a skill, earn some money, take the modular route. You are young and and have many years to obtain your licenses.
Most of all, never take "advice" from the friendly faces at CTC, they are leading you into a cesspit, taking every cent from you on the way.

Also, read the desperation in other threads on this forum, posted by people with thousands of hours on those shiny jets, but with no job.

[SR71]

Going to University will cost £60K?

So assuming maximum fees payable is £27K, you're saying you've worked out the real cost is more than double this?

Have you figured out the real cost of your ATPL training?

Now factor in, you might be 45 by the time you make it into BA.

Do yourself a favour, become a dentist, buy your own Pitts and enjoy your flying.

[IFRKING]

I'm planning on going to Asia (Indonesia) to look for some work....... What are the chanches of getting a job as a cadet with no hours or TR? I can pay for my TR so that really isn't a problem.

[Wesker]

IFRKING

Very small. Since of January this year foreigners need 250h on type to get a validation or local license issued. :(

[giggitygiggity]

SR71, maximum fees on a 3 year course would be 27k you're right. Accommodation is at least 3k a year and 3k a year living expenses is barely enough. This puts it upto 45k and if it is a 4 year course, 57k.

Difference is it is most likely unsecured personal debt so no repossession. Still an eye watering amount of money. It was a decent bit cheaper when I did it but given my course had about 6 contact hours a week I feel that was money spent a lot less sensibly than that which I spent on flight training.

I think the argument of "don't do flight training, just go to university for 3 year (regardless) for the experience etc..." is pretty redundant now.

[spider_man]

in an email from CTC they say the following "You generally receive an allowance during your 6-8 months line training of £1000 - 1200 per month and are employed by ARL once you go on to a permanent FlexiCrew Contract."

What the email fails to mention is the fact you have to pay another £10,000 towards Airbus type rating costs to earn circ. £1,000 per month over 6 months. To me, thats pay to fly.

Further, its not "once" you go onto a permanent contract, but "if" you do.

How many cadets come out of CTC a month - 24? more? If they admit there are no placements anticipated for the remainder of 2013 and there are already 60 in the hold pool, you are looking at 350 cadets waiting for a job from January 2014.

The CTC cadets I know are on the dole, no prospect of a flying job this year, deferring loan payments as long as possible whilst the compound interest piles up, and are living back with the folks. Even if CTC did offer them a placement, they cannot afford the extra 10k for the rating. I accept, it wasn't always like this for graduating cadets, but this seems to be the new reality.

[giggitygiggity]

I think it would be pretty foolish to embark on a course without setting aside the 10,000 for a type rating contribution. This was the most likely employment route on starting the course so it should be considered just another necessary evil to complete it.

I don't think it is pay to fly per se, it is a shame that you must contribute towards your type rating. Unless you are extremely lucky, you must still pay for the rest of your professional training.

[bacp]

IFRKING- to quote the song 'he must be out of his brilliant mind..da da da dum..." sorry showing my age. Don't go to Indonesia for a job, lovely place for a bit of backpacking, but you will not have a happy experience there as a rookie pilot.

OP - can I add my plea for you not to load yourself up with tons of finance to be a pilot, unless it is money you can afford to gamble with and loose. LUCK is a key and unpredictable factor even for the gifted and well connected. Even if you get on the greasy pole, a gentle shake of the corporate finances will sling you off again. This is happening to 30 of my colleagues at the moment, many of whom are servicing massive debts, some secured by their parents. It is not a happy scenario.
If I may offer some old gits advice, right now aviation as a career stinks, but it might change as global recovery takes place. Therefore, choose another career now and plan to be a pilot when you are 28. This gives you plenty of opportunity to finance the venture, you'll go in with a wider view of life and you will only risk your own finances. Who knows, you may even decide not to be a 'bus driver after all and enjoy a functional social life while the rest of us are ploughing back from Turkey at 4 in the morning!
Best of luck, anyway.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Before armageddon is predicted, there are rumours of 400 new flexis in 2014 due to 17 extra airframes, upgrades, people leaving and so forth. Stelios' vendetta can of course change this rapidly, but to say expansion is over in easy, is just not true. It is just not breakneck pace anymore.

[bex88]

Simples, trained in 2007-2008 just before the bubble burst. Yes fell for all of the OAA hype. Nearly 30 guys on my course. About 25-30% have no job but loads of debt, the others are in the lo co trap as contractors. For all the guys who have a job every single one had to pay for their TR one way or another. On a brighter note there is one yes ONE perhaps two who through their own judgment, foresight, good fortune and dam right all out luck have a proper flying job.

Whats the answer? I really don't know but if I were looking at it today perhaps I would think very differently about the risks. I write this not as a bitter unemployed graduate but a very very fortunate one. Its been the most unstable 5 years of my life.

We cant tell you what to do but look at the stats from my course. I did go flight instructing and my advice would be, if you still really want to. A: apply to BA and then apply again. Give it two shots before you do any commercial flight training because then you are not able to apply. If that does not work out go modular and then do a bit of flight instructing. Why? well lets just say once you come off one of these integrated courses you can fly on instruments but really you cant fly for toffee. I learnt to fly flight instructing

[bacp]

good advice from Bex. I'd add the RAF into that process too, its not the one way ticket to a civil job that it once was, but you will get trained for free. Oh, there are the obvious downsides, but hell if the alternative is banqruptcy we are already talking desperate measure,LOL

[Man Flex]

Dear Buggington

At least you are seeking advice from the right people before making this decision. I commend you for that but your naivity is clear.

You are so young but I also completely empathise with your predicament.

Back in the early 1990s when I started training in earnest there were no jobs and perhaps, more importantly, no access to large sums of money.

I didn't really enjoy college or want to go to university either. I too had started a PPL and instead chose to find work that at least would pay for that and perhaps give me some social life whilst living at home.

Remember, at your age you should be enjoying yourself. Getting drunk, getting laid, having fun.

The advice on this thread is spot on.

I honestly believe that the best pilots I work with are those who have had some previous career or employment and with that bring skills, experience and maturity to the job.

One last thing. Do not assume that you would be able to live at home and work for ARL. The vast majority of cadets, with easyjet, are not at their "home" base and must rent some accommodation locally.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Firestorm]

In addition to what BoeingProp said consider how you are going to save for a deposit for a house seeing as the 100% mortgage is a thing of history nowadays, and how having such large loans may impact your credit rating, and therefore your ability to borrow for a mortgage or anything else that you might think you need (or just 'want'). If you don't believe me then go and talk to your parent's bank manager or an Independent Financial Advisor.

If you want to go to university then add about £50k to your planned borrowing.

If you really want to be a pilot think hard about it. It is a good job, but is a really tough career. If you really want to be a pilot do a good degree, join the UAS, fly a lot, get a great job away from aviation, consider getting a PPL, and flying a Pitts doing aeros at the weekend.

If you want to be a heavy machinery operator learn to drive an HGV and a JCB. You will not do quite so many early morning, and late nights, and you won't have stupid amounts of money crippling you for half your working life, and you can go and do loop-the-loops at the weekend. If you really want to be a pilot operating an A320 is not where it's at, chucking a light aerobatic aeroplane around the skies is.

If you are still committed to becoming a pilot in commercial aviation then get in touch with The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators GAPAN - The Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators (http://www.gapan.org) next year and try for a scholarship for a PPL. This is about the last organisation, apart from the military, who will give a fully funded course. As such it is very competitive, but if you get the course your CV will have a bit of gloss on it that will help you to get started.

Good luck with what ever you decide.

[Mungo Man]

I think when I said regional I might have used the wrong term. Perhaps I should have simply said props. Anyway, when I said different, I meant that when you say pilot, I think EasyJet or BA, flying Boeings or Airbuses.

Regional flying doesn't necessarily mean props. You might want to be careful with your view that 'being a pilot' means Airbus or Boeing for Easy or BA, it is slightly narrow-minded and may cause offence whether it was intended or not. You haven't mentioned business aviation. Some hi-tech equipment being flown in that sector but not 'bus or Boeing.

[PURPLE PITOT]

And we earn twice as much!:ok:

[cldrvr]

SSSH, PP, we don't want these 18 year old rentapilot wannabees with 150 hours and daddy's money coming over to our side of the industry, the locos can keep them for as long as it lasts.

All it takes for this scam to end is a big hole in the Essex countryside. Sad though that through their own fault an FA with us makes more a day than these guys do in a week of 12 sectors a day.

[cldrvr]

As to the OP, if you have 150k to piss away on a hobby with a measly salary and no prospect of finding a second job after eJ gets rid of you for the next muppet in line, why don't you use that 150k and start a business instead.

We see hundreds of CV's of youngsters who after having completed their few hundred hours with the likes of eJ can't get another job for love or money, plenty in the industry won't touch you with a barge pole.

[Hahn]

Dear Boggington,

In our company, which shall remain nameless, we operate with flexicrew for quite a few years now and at my base about 80% of the F/Os are flexi. I immediately realise when I fly with a "normal" F/O because he / she won't moan all day about his / her financial situation and is at work with 100% brain capacity. It is really nice for a change not to listen to endless whinging about one's dire situation with sub zero perspective for change. It happened, and I am not joking, that the purser of the following crew asked us if we had any crew sandwiches left for "her" poor flexi F/O because: "you know how lousy their pay is".
If you consider a career in aviation (yes, I had the same dream 27 years ago) use the Flexi / CTC way as the very last and extremely desperate resort. Cattle mustering in the outback of Australia in an old Super Cub is heaven compared to that!

[Buggington]

cldrvr: "we don't want these 18 year old rentapilot wannabees with 150 hours and daddy's money coming over to our side of the industry".

Ouch.

Mungo: Good point. I have no doubt that I'm being narrow minded, but I hadn't thought of the business jet side of things. How would one even go about getting into the business jet part? I've received the FlightGlobal jobs email for ages and never seen anything about business jets in there.

Does sound more interesting than EasyJet, no matter what.

Purple pitot: What kind of salary range are we talking about here? :ok:

Obviously I can't reply to everyone here - I would be here forever, but just wanted to say thank you for helping someone so naive :ok: All of the advice has definitely given me something to think about over the next few days, and my time surfing around on PPRuNe has shown me that the industry really is screwed up.

[gorter]

Buggington. Unfortunately you were born in the wrong timeframe to become a well paid professional in the aviation industry. The sector is in the poo with no sign of any real recovery. There are thousands and thousands of pilots who trained before you who are out of work. I've bleated this so many times before, but if you want to fly, go to university get a good degree and earn a killing in some different industry. Then buy a share in a Pitts and then enjoy life. DO NOT hope to become a professional pilot. You have a 1% success rate. DO NOT listen to the flight schools, they only want your money. There is no career at the moment and you have a 99% chance of just blowing £100000. Anyone who tells you different is lying to you.

And just to qualify, i am not a wannabe, I have been a professional pilot with a full time job on several Boeing types for a good number of years now. I got lucky. You probably won't.

Finally, if you do decide to still go down the flying route, be honest to yourself and be fair to your sponsors. Let your parents read this thread.

[truckflyer]

Buggington; first forget about the biz jet jobs, a low experienced wannabe has NO CHANCE for that, unless he has very well connections / family!

But you are naive in your attitude, you think that thinks will be golden very fast, it will not be golden for a long long time, if ever again!

That is the first fact you need to come to terms with, the jobs DOES NOT pay anything close to what you can imagine, even when you have experience!

Sure for some, who have been in the business for long time, but these golden times have come and gone!

However I have to admit, I do know of many guys who got jobs last year (2012) - so some of the negativeness is not completely true.
The odds of getting a good career, probably 10%!

I would for sure look into BA and RAF as primary options, if not made this, take a long hard wait and think, because we are talking about some serious amount of money! £100.000! Is not small change!

But of course many todays "youth" can not fathom these kind of amounts - thats why first you should try and live one year without mummy and daddy, just to see how the real life is, so you do learn the value of money, and how hard it is to come by!

It is easy to spend when you have it, but when you don't, and you risk loosing it all, well you can not understand what this will mean, because you are feeling comfort that mummy and daddy will fit the bill for you!

I know one guy who joined EZY on one of these SCAMS, and he told me he was sent around like cattle, from place to place, he hardly NEVER stayed at his base!
People will tell you, DON'T DO IT, and you will STILL DO IT, and in 18 -24 months you will be crying and complaining why there are no well paid jobs for you! In 36 - 48 months the banks will approach your parents to re-possess their house, unless they pay your debts!

You will look desperately for a job, but by now your licences/ratings have expired, you do not have £3000 - £4000 needed to keep them valid! So the only job you can apply for his minimum wage jobs!
This is a very plausible scenario!

And of course, you will not listen or believe anybody giving advice on these forums, but just go ahead and do it anyway, because everybody here are dumb, and not as smart and special as you are! Hmmmm Good luck!:ugh:

[bex88]

First let me say WELL DONE and i really mean that. You have gone to the flight schools and sought a second opinion. Yes you have little knowledge about the industry but you have sought to get a balanced view. A very responsible course of action. As has been said sit down and have a think. Read through the flight school stuff and these forums with the folks and decide what you want to do. It all comes down to a risk analysis.

BRAN Benefit of the option you choose, Risk of the option you choose, an analysis of other options and what if you do nothing for the moment?

I have been in your shoes although I was older and had a previous career. Would I stump up 100K today. NO. Would I join the RAF or apply to BA for a few years? Yes.

The choice is yours, good luck in whatever you decide is right for both you and your family

[G.S. Willy]

BALPA | How To Become A Pilot (http://www.balpa.org/Become-A-Pilot/How-To-Become-A-Pilot.aspx)

Buggington.

If you have not already read this pamphlet made by BALPA, it might be a good idea do do it now.

Realize that getting a job after the "flexicrew" scam is completed is slim, and that luck, not skill will be the deciding factor in whether you are among the very few that will get a decent job.

[nabanoba]

I'm not here to offer any sort of informed opinion on the aviation industry, as I am a wannabe myself. I just want to say that Buggington is far from naive, especially for a 17 year old.

He has done far more research into becoming a pilot than nearly anyone who I've met at open days, flight schools and even CTC interview days. He clearly has his head screwed on and should be commended for that, not patronised. He has come to the right place to get info and is carrying out due diligence.

My only advice would be to take things slow and enjoy your life a bit first. You may always regret not living life to the full and seeing the world when you're young. 100k is enough to mean that you won't be enjoying life for quite a long period of time, you will be living to pay bills and that ain't fun. If Uni isn't your thing, don't sweat it, get a factory job, these are well paid and will help you to finance your training whilst allowing you to enjoy your teens and travel a bit. These experiences will help you mature as a person and stand to you in interviews.

[Buggington]

G.S. Willy: Thanks - I've got "So you want to be a pilot" from GAPAN. I've gotta say, if by this point I haven't worked out that the Flexicrew thing is bad and that I probably wouldn't get a job, I shouldn't be a pilot.

Just out of interest, how long has Flexicrew been around? Is it just since the downturn of 2007/8?

Bex & Nabanoba: Thanks for the support there :D I've been talking to my parents, and they seem to be in less of a rush than me. They're also following this thread, and are also slightly shocked at what they've read. It's a stark contrast to anything OAA or CTC have said. Hopefully, given my current college and work situation I should be able to defer any decision until about December, so there's a lot of time to think about things and doing research.

Truck: I looked into the RAF, but unfortunately I have four eyes (glasses), so that's out. :sad: Also, I don't think I'm special. I realise I am not particularly lucky (try me with a coin toss - odds are I'll lose. My sister always wins. Go figure.) or smart. I have paid attention to what's on this thread. I would have to be a complete and utter idiot to totally ignore what's written on here.

Gorter: As I've already mentioned, my parents are also following this thread, and know the same amount as me now. It might not be much, but it's more than I knew this time last week. It sucks that I was born this late, but there's nothing much I can do. Time travel perhaps?

That said, if time travel existed, we probably wouldn't need pilots after all.

[cldrvr]

Bug,

I have been flying for over 35 years and don't regret it as a career choice, I get to meet some fabulous people, seen most of the world and still enjoy the actual flying.

I have been through all the downturns and seen all the changes in our industry, some for the better, some for the worse.

Flying itself is fabulous, and I am lucky that our side of the industry still enjoys good T&C's, ours have gotten better over the years, while the airline side has gone down.

This downturn in the terms and conditions was in part caused by the crisis in 08, but it has accelerated by the inflow of P2F candidates, now the airlines are very comfortable in using that scam to help their bottom line.

This does not mean that it is the only route into aviation, it has however to many with a bit of money the appearance of the easiest and quickest.

Taken aside the fact that you will end up with a huge debt that will take you 15-20 years to pay back, on a salary that has been significantly reduced, you also run the very high risk that after your first stint as flexi crew you become unemployable.

There are still so many other ways into aviation beside the CTC scheme and the likes, however it has become more and more of a struggle to make it as a career choice.

Going what many here call Modular is far cheaper and carries a far smaller risk of ending up as a failure. The US route is still available to get experience as a flight instructor, as is working at a club here in the UK, then move into Turboprops or regional airliners and work your way up to the airlines, you may actually find along the way that the airlines are not for you, it wasn't a career path I ever contemplated.

Keep asking around, just don't go jumping in at the deep end right away.

[truckflyer]

I would say at your age, Bug, listen to the advice of cldrvr!

You will not regret it, believe me! Go modular, take your time, FIC, maybe even go and instruct in US or UK, there are jobs available this route, it might take time, but the secret is not what you know, it is who you know!

Going CTC / OAA, today unless the BA program is hopeless!

In 1992, when I was intending to go commercial, I also wore glasses, I was outside my CAA's requirement, +/- 3, and my only option was to go to US and gain experience, and hope they would give me medical based on this!
15 years later, the requirements had changed, now they are +/- 5, and I was suddenly within requirements, and I got my class 1 medical, it just shows, patience does work!

I got my first aviation job last year, at the age of 43, so it does work!

The money you will spend with CTC, will not give you any guarantees of anything, it is very likely that you will still need to pay for a TR at a later stage, so that amount you expect will rise, and unless your parents have unlimited funds, so will your needs.
With CTC / OAA expect at least to spend £120.000 - £150.000 - incl. TR, living expenses and maintaining your licence!

Modular you will by unlucky if you spend half of the £120.000, probably close to £40.000, than FIC - working getting experience / contacts - and if lucky you might not even need to pay for your TR!

At your age, why the heck is your main ambition to get into Airbus or Boeing first, when you arrive there, flying will be much less fun than it will be if you follow this route as suggested!

The thing, you can also work during the time you train, so your debts will be much less!

[SR71]

Just as another anecdote, with the demise of bmibaby last year, (the failure of an airline is not an unfamiliar story these days), experienced pilots in the LHS, with 10000+ hours, aged 50+, are now back in the RHS doing the job you aspire to do aged 19(?) having finished your ATPL training.

That is career progression for you in this industry.

So plan for a possible 30 years climbing the ladder only to find yourself back at the bottom of it again at least once when you calculate the NPV of your future earnings to see if it justifies your chosen career path.

:sad:

[bex88]

SR71 has a very valid point. If by misfortune you find yourself redundant at some point in your career it can be almost impossible to get back into the industry. P2F has created this ridiculous system where a experienced pilot can get dumped out of the system and then is unable to get a job because some airlines want cadets to sit in the RHS touching nothing for six months before the next lot come in. This could easily be you. Friends of mine have 500 hrs on type but now can't go in as a cadet but don't have enough hours for the small number of DEP positions.

[Superpilot]

Absolutely agree. Only been flying commercially a few years despite chasing the dream for a decade. All that frustration and pain before finding a paid flying job... I now realise, it had it's purpose in life whilst allowing me to develop skills I may need one day when my airline employer goes to dust.

Proper career's are protected by fair-minded senior staff with backbone, sometimes industry regulators and very often lobby groups. They guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. This is, therefore, no longer a career in my eyes and I long for a part time opportunity where I can satisfy the aviation bug in me whilst being in the comfort of knowing that my second source of income will never let me down.

[spider_man]

if you think I'm naive, try going to the CTC and OAA open days. The naivety of the current cadets there is quite amazing - one of the guys I spoke to couldn't even give me a typical starting salary

I don't think there is a typical starting salary anymore!

Back in 2005, my first year salary as a 200h cadet FO on Boeing was £29K basic plus flight pay and pension, in full time permanent employment. Year 2 became 39K basic, Year 3 - £41K. Change of operator and as SFO, basic increased to £52K plus decent pension contributions, etc. My P60s floated between £62-£70K.

Since 2011 I've been laid off twice (both airlines still exist, they just like to save bucks). The best deal going for me in the UK at the moment is 27 weeks temporary summer contract work worth £26K gross (I'm lucky to get this position). Out of this has to come many costs... accountant fees, national insurance for employer(!) and employee, commuting, temporary digs. No pension, no job security. No choice left but to follow in the footsteps of many of my previous co-workers and leave the UK - or leave the industry.

And then we read on here EZY will take on 400+ pilots next year, sorry - Flexicrew cadets each earning £6,000 over 6 months. Well you can be rostered 1,000 duty hours over those months, so I would say £6 an hour is a typical Jet FO starting pay here in the UK right now. :}

[Sprinkles]

As an ex flexi pilot all I can say is avoid it like the plague! Seriously do not consider it, do not try and rationalise it, justify it, reason with it or convince yourself its a way to get in. Just say NO! I can give you cold hard numbers on just how much I got working for ezy and how much I physically had to pay. It isn't nice reading and I can assure you a lot of other guys can say the same.

You're 17. Do what I was doing at 17 and enjoy yourself, drink the white lightning in the park and chase the skirt. Do this while you have no responsibility or £100k loans to repay. We all understand the enthusiasm but theres no need to waste your youth chasing white elephants. I was 26 when I first jumped in a da20 and 29 when I strapped an airbus to my ass. It may have been a long wait but I appreciated every minute of training, something my younger colleagues didn't. Work, save and hope for the industry to recover and pray flexi crew can become a thing of the past. 17 year olds jumping at the chance to be a flexi pilot will not do you any long term favours.

I would suggest against uni nowadays as thats just as expensive. But thats just my own opinion.

Good luck and don't rush!

Edited for crap grammar.

[BemaR]

Hi,

I'm a tiny bit older than you Buddington (21) I am married with a young child and have long had the bug for aviation. At 11 years old I was at my local airfield (GA) cutting the clubhouse grass, cleaning the windows, vacuuming, making tea for instructors, cleaning out aircraft and was able to, at times, retrieve weather updates (met office) and if I was there early enough was able to taxi piper PA-38's from the hangar to be fueled and then to the club house grass area. Very exciting for a 11 year old and of course was taken flying, by many members flying for fun!

I had two flying lessons at 14 years old, but sadly had to stop due to my parents not being able to afford the £110 per hour. I finished school and worked as a junior admin throughout summer and during my first year of college I dropped out and worked for my dad as a finance assistant whilst still working as a junior admin.

Met my wife at 16, engaged at 18, married at 19, father at 20 and very happy! I supported her through university and she finished last year... Now its my turn and I am going to do my degree this september. Why am I telling you all this? Well....

I too was in your position, around a similar age to you and had been brainwashed by the big FTO's proclaiming that their placement record would have you in a job asap, if not immediately! But like you I decided to do more research and (thank God for pprune) found all I needed to know about the nitty gritty of this glorious industry, from this website! I still want and can only see my self flying for a living, because having flown a few times and getting the bug it never fades...but that does not mean you can't be wise about how to reach your dream.

Which takes me to my 60k degree which is not 60k, but infact £5700 for two years and I think £2700 for the third year (Don't quote me but it is close to that)! Do the maths! Not bad at all and at the end of it I will have a BA hons in Education. Great back up for when the flight training is complete and wait...wait.... here is my secret. After applying to student finance they told me (not literally but on the breakdown) that I would be taking just shy of £12,500 a year for the first two years straight into my bank! £6400 (for the two years) of which I have to pay back on top of my student tuition fee!!!

So over two years saving just shy of £25,000 towards flight training, with at the end an overall debt around £21,000ish. My course only requires me to be in one day a week for two years (only six saturdays in the final year). So I will be working two days in the office and around 4-5 night shifts on top to save. My wife has been offered a great job and is going to help some of the bills I pay while I save the rest for my flying! I will be taking it slowly, enjoying my flight training while enjoying life, gaining a degree which provides an excellent plan B should all airlines 'slam the door on me' and best of all leaves me with a flight training debt balance after 3ish years of £0.00

You have done the right thing asking for guidance here and trust me, being a debt free pilot (minus a student loan which does not require re-payment immediately after) with a degree under your belt will deffinately help when you join the hundreds, if not thousands of hopefuls looking for that first job (and I am not talking the airlines, frieight or business). Love flying for flying. Take your time. Be smart. A degree is certainly a smart move. It does not have to be aviation related although that may help...

My advice would be complete the degree, if you don't like the size of the tuition fees...find a cheaper university/college. I am not a proffessional pilot, nor am I close, but I will get there. If you love flying don't let anyone sway you from pursuing this career, but at the same time look at risks involved i.e high chance of redundancy at least once in career, away from family and friends, 'shift work', the economy etc(numerous more)...

If you have a passion for FLYING and are willing to put in an enormous amount hard work and studying you'll get there and will hopefully love your job. Just be wise.

(P.S pm me if you want any info about university and saving and doing your training the modular route)

[Buggington]

BemaR:

"Met my wife at 16, engaged at 18, married at 19, father at 20 and very happy!"

First of all, I'm impressed at how fast you managed all those things! Congratulations :)

It does sound as though you were in a similar position to me - and yes, thank god for this forum, because otherwise I would probably have believed 90% of what the FTO's have been saying (let's face it, who wouldn't trust those infographics? :})

I'm getting a little stuck trying to add up your university fees - for the course I might do (three years, Aerospace Engineering at Kingston or Hertfordshire) it costs £9000 a year. Obviously this adds up to £27k for the three years, plus around £10k a year for living costs. £57k, so near enough £60k.

How did you manage the £12.5k degree?!

Truth be told (I can't remember if I've mentioned this before in this thread) I'm not all that interested in going to university. I haven't ruled out doing a degree at some stage in my life, but I would rather avoid going to Uni if I can. The only reason I'm considering it is as a backup plan, in case the industry manages to get worse and I am at some point right out of the industry.

It is looking like I'm going to have to wait for a while. Like many people have told me, I suppose there is no rush.

I would have to try to find something to fill the gap between college and flying though - that could be fun :uhoh:

Sprinkles:

Sorry for not noticing any of the previous responses for a while - I got sidetracked and it was only BemaR's notification that made me remember this thread.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get out of the Flexicrew situation? What are you doing now? Obviously I'd rather not be in it, but there might be some useful advice I can get from it :ok:

It's worth noting that I am definitely not jumping at the chance to be a Flexicrew pilot. Pilot, yes. Flexicrew, hell no. :cool:

[BemaR]

Buddington:

Thanks for the congrats :)

Ahhh i see. Well I was looking at a degree in aeronautical engineering, but like you pointed out the fees and potential debt is staggering! I also looked at my plan C option, which had fees that matched your degree, infact here is a breakdown of the plans i went through:

• Plan A - Intergrated Flight Training...loan and job prospect made me look at Plan B,
• Plan B - Aeronautical Engineering degree, but fees and not having the ability to work and save for modular training due to complex timetable made me move to Plan C,
• Plan C - Education degree with the ability to do a PGCE....but again the fees and the timetable would have made it difficult to save for my modular training and the debt matched Plan B, so i looked at Plan D
• Plan D (plan which works for me) Education degree completed at a college where the fees are £5,700 for 2years (foundation degree)and the top up year which makes it a full Education degree (BA Hons) is i 'think' £2700, because it is classed as part-time and you can only get student finance for the tuition fees!
Year 1 and 2 is only one day a week, which is friday, which also allows me to work the crazy amount of shifts I do, save and pay my bills, aswell as pocket all that uni money :E I think the total debt i will be in, along with a maintenance loan is around 21-22k...not bad.

I haven't started my degree yet or flight training, that all starts in september :} but it works for me. If you are not interested in doing any other degree other than an aeronautical degree, my way may not work. Alot of people on this website will say the degree is not necessary to get a flying job ( which is true ) but it certainly helps if you can't get one and in my case to help pay for my training!!!

Look at the entire picture to make a wise decision. It is not impossible. Its only impossible if you stop working towards your goal! :ok: