are 3000 jet hours not enough for interview?

[mrx111]

I'm right now surprised, what airlines wants today. After 6 years of experience, flying B737NG and CL and having 3000hours on type, JAA ATPL, I can't find any way how to get invited to any interview. I applied to every reasonable offer, but usually no response or a general email stating they had enough candidates and I didn't fit to their requirements. My last airline didn't extend my contract, because at the moment they don't need experienced pilots and want only pilots with zero experience for P2F. I never did P2F and right now it seems I'm a victim of this program, where airlines are giving preference to pilots with zero experience and only wants to get a money from them.

[AvroRider]

because at the moment they don't need experienced pilots and want only pilots with zero experience for P2F.
I'm a victim of this program
preference to pilots with zero experience and only wants to get a money from them.

You just answered to your question my friend...And I know it's a shame and will hardly end...

[captjns]

It's a shame that there are so many children who have parents that are willing to buy int such schemes.

The worst part is that there are so called responsible adults willing to take a job with Ethiopian and fly revenue flights on $60 USD per day

[AvroRider]

Look what I found a few days ago :

Job Description
Cockpit Connect is an Airline crew leasing company based in Jakarta/Bali, Indonesia. On behalf of Citilink we are seeking Captains and First Officers to fly Airbus A320 aircraft for IMMEDIATE screening starting on 27th February 2013 in Amsterdam.

NOTE: We DO NOT charge any expense for this opportunity and we will NOT accept pilots who request to pay to fly.

And surprise, surprise from an other agency :

Job Description
Citilink the low cost carrier and daughter of Garuda Indonesia would like to invite A320 rated pilots with 250 - 499 hours on type.

Program:
This is a self financed program and will cost 25.000 USD
For this investment you will receive line training + 2 year contract.


Where is the error ?

[carlrsymington]

I am not a fan of big business but what you are experiencing is exactly this.

You want a high status job you love doing for big money, to see the world, maybe meet a few beautiful women, men (your choice). Who wouldn't.
Number of jobs < number of suckers willing to P2F
MOL and and a lot of airline MD's have realised this and will suck you dry.
I'd love to be a pilot but lack of skill, too much competition and an economic appraisal told me to go for an IT career.
I get\ got to see the world, USA 20 times on business plus a few others.
Training paid for by a state education and my employers. Not enough beautiful women at first but this is changing.
I get to sleep in my own bed and don't get jet lag unless I've come back from long haul holiday or work.
Fight the changes as hard and as long as you can. Use the whatever tactics are legal & ethical to maintain the staus quo or minimise degradation but the headwinds are against you (I don't know the METAR numbers).
Nice work from Balpa with a facebook page.. sarcasm mode = OFF
Law & IT seem to be flavour of the decade but I am sure there are others.
Finally, I do NOT wish for pilots or cabin crew to undergo any detrimental changes to T&C's but as always things are changing. I don't have solutions but you have my sympathy & support.

[el caballero rojo]

I don't want to disappoint you but with even 10000 hours and 6500 Jet hours, I did not get an invitation. I have been applying at a large cargo airline since 2003 with no joy. And when you apply at a LoCo who alledgely wants to hire experienced FO's, you don't even get an invitation.

[dondino]

Just to be sure....why dont you share your experience on the interview section....giving the idea to anyone is considering to go for those programs....everyone think that with 700 TT and 500 on type they are ESSENTIAL to the market....but reality comes to the truth and then you realize that even with such experience there are no or little jobs opportunities....
Hope this thing might go to an end...aviation seems to be a posh hobby!

[No RYR for me]

I never did P2F and right now it seems I'm a victim of this program, where airlines are giving preference to pilots with zero experience and only wants to get a money from them.

That is interesting... specially when reading what you wrote on the 26th of April 2009:

Is any chance to get a job on B737 with almost 500hrs on type? I've flown classic and NG together, but right now I'm considering to go to Eagle jet and buy some hours,

So let's get this straight... You bought a TR without a job, was willing to spend even more on a second TR and now you are ranting against P2F... :rolleyes:

You made my day!

[What Now]

You are experiencing similar problems to those on the Military Experience Worthless thread.

[rightbank]

I was recently asked a question about how much the P2F schemes cost. As my company doesn't operate such a scheme I had to admit I didn't know. Can anyone give me details about how much those companies that do charge for the 'privilege' of being shafted while sitting in the rh seat.

I tried a quick look at the search facility and while there are many mentions of p2f, I couldn't find any mention of costs.

[mrx111]

I never did P2F, I've flown for a few airlines, always for a regular F/O salary. Nothing like today, P2F or if you're lucky you are employed and the salary is 4-5 times less then any regular F/O salary. All what I did is I paid my first and the only one type rating, that's all.

[RAT 5]

I would like to see a Jeremy Paxman type interview, perhaps Hard-Talk, confront a couple of guilty airline CEO's and a couple of CAA chiefs on this issue. Real dig deep into the phsycie of what's gong on. Get a few of the interviewees squirming. Let the pax know what's going on. Make a comparison to the health or dentist industry and as patients if they'd like this 'pay for a job' system there. I would have thought this was a classic scenario for the unions to get active on. A national union should be just that; caring for the whole industry, not just narrow minded on one or two companies and their local issues. The technical committees claim to look after all those aspects of the industry, as do the flight safety committees; why not then the T's & C's committees. Yet on this issue they have been conspicuous by their silence. They take their money by purporting to protect those who are already members. This is too narrow minded. I'm amazed the investigative media haven't latched onto what would be an interesting dig.

[uchy]

Sadly in the same your situation : 3500 jet hrs,I have applied almost everywhere and 0 invitation!!!

[captjns]

I would like to see a Jeremy Paxman type interview, perhaps Hard-Talk, confront a couple of guilty airline CEO's and a couple of CAA chiefs on this issue.

You need to include the miscreants who are eager to spend their parent's money, climb over the backs of the qualified pilots who have not conscience about short cutting the system.

[cldrvr]

Sadly in the same your situation : 3500 jet hrs,I have applied almost
everywhere and 0 invitation!!!


You are not going to get one as long as there are kids willing to pay for their own training and accepting sub standard conditions.

That is not going to change unless either the airlines change their policy, and that is not going to happen as long as the beancounters are in charge, or you need the existing crews putting a stop to it, and that is not going to happen either, too many of them are complicit in this practise.

You just wait till this current batch migrates to the LHS and accepts huge paycuts to do so, that will only accelerate the downward spiral. By the time that happens it will be too late for the exisiting senior crew to do anything about it, and all of them will come in here complaining how crap the industry has become.

[cldrvr]

All what I did is I paid my first and the only one type rating, that's
all.


By doing so you gave up the right to complain. I am glad you are not finding a job, lets hope there are hundreds more like you and that may just tip the balance and scare a few more in going down the same road you are now finding yourself on.

One can hope......Nah, not going to happen, plenty more muppets with more money than sense.

[Doodlebug]

Mr Rat your approach: ''Let the pax know what's going on. Make a comparison to the health or dentist industry and as patients if they'd like this 'pay for a job' system there'' seems to make a great deal of sense at first glance, however I feel that the pax couldn't care less, in fact I believe that these days your average man-in-the-street would be delighted to hear the sad facts. This is because of the pervasive envy apparent at all levels of society (oops, sorry, there are no levels in society) today. Witness the undisguised hatred vented at aircrew by the simians running the 'security'-charade at airports today as just one example. Also, your average Joe firmly believes that modern aircraft fly themselves, innit? So why should pilots warrant above-average terms and conditions, the 'logic' goes. Of course pilots as a group generally accelerate this trend by continuously down-playing the challenges of what we do - sadly usually an ugly manifestation of false modesty. :ugh:

[Iver]

You are lucky you still have a job in Europe - stay positive! :}:cool: 3,000 hours and a type rating does not make you stand out from the crowd. There are plenty of people from distressed/no-growth airlines looking for jobs elsewhere. My advice: keep adding 737NG hours and get your command and valuable command time when possible.

If you were to have closer to 10,000 737NG hours plus command time with no incidents one would think you would be marketable elsewhere - especially in the Middle East where the growth continues unabated... Just read FlyDubai is expected to order 50-100 more aircraft (although some may replace existing 737NGs). Both Emirates and the other large UAE major are expanding big time. I would also keep applications current with both BA and VS just in case hiring opens up at some point.

Good luck!

[fade to grey]

Spot on , Doodlebug, spot on !
Sadly experience is actually seen as a negative by P2F companies.

Don't think command hours will get you out of the merde either. I thought that and it used to be 500 hrs P1 will get you a DEC.
but, oh no, goalposts move fluidly - 2000 P1 , 3000 P1. Widebody ? over ( insert random aircraft weight limit ).
Not so simple, and even if you are to go DEC, you are mainly looking at the dregs that advertise a lot like Ethiopian and Korean...

Good luck !

[Stick35]

This really surprises me. That amount of experience on a popular aircraft and still not finding anything. I thought that market nowadays was only for boeing and airbus rated people. And even then people are still doing P2F. The market is really sick. Mrx111, did you try flydubai and oman air? They are looking for guys of your size i thought.

[High Energy]

Same situation here. 3000 hours tt, all jet, but with the Embraer rating. My only option is to find any airline taking on non rated pilots. There was a new german outfit that basically told me I was over qualified. Guess they prefer P2F low hour guys...

Turkish is taking on 737NG pilots like crazy.

[Denti]

Interesting, could you disclose which new german outfit that was? Just interested since a few were tricked by the offered Embraer jobs at LGW.

[Airbus_a321]

What to say ? Actually I don't know. So I just can give you a warm "welcome in the club".
If you should think having more hours logged would be better. Unfortunately not. Just forget it. Very sad but true.
e.g.: I have +10,000 hrs PIC on 320's - accident/incident free btw - and you know what ? - no one cares. No one is interested. Sending applications waiting for replies :ugh:

This aviation business is nothing else but just a $hi...:mad: dssaster. Don't see any silvershine at the horizon either. :confused:

[POS_INT]

could I give you a little free advice? if you have 3000 hours on the B737 and you need to come on PPRuNE for career advise I would shut up shop now. :ok:

[High Energy]

@ Dentis. It was LGW. Don't know anything about them other then FlyNiki and Air Berlin tie-up or something. What did you mean with tricked? What happened there?

[Piltdown Man]

When are the newbe's going to get it? The world does not need any more pilots. When it does, it will pay for their production.

[el caballero rojo]

Interesting, could you disclose which new German outfit that was? Just interested since a few were tricked by the offered Embraer jobs at LGW.

Denti:
The Air Berlin mainline pilots (AB, former DBA and former LTU) are fighting against outsourcing to NIKI and LGW. When AB makes their own people redundant, wants pay cuts and creates cheaper jobs at LGW for externals, the word tricked is spot on. I am sorry for those who applied without knowing but just be aware that those who apply are killing jobs at Air Berlin. The Union (VC) does it best to stop it and due to the solidarity of all the mainline pilots, they at least achieved a small step forward in the battle.

Same situation here. 3000 hours tt, all jet, but with the Embraer rating. My only option is to find any airline taking on non rated pilots. There was a new German outfit that basically told me I was over qualified. Guess they prefer P2F low hour guys...


High Energy:
I would be really interested to hear when you had an interview or email stating that you were over qualified at LGW?
I refer to my previous statement. I am sorry that you got this answer but I am sure that in this case there is another reason. The official statement of AB was that they were checking the market for cheap EMB rated pilots willing to work well below the AB mainline pay scale. Not joking, started chocking when I heard it. Believe me, the AB scale is already one of the lower pay scales in Western Europe for a large airline. Getting paid even less is a rip off.

[bagurxvi]

Welcome to the Jungle !!! Buddy...

Now you may understand what kind of hell we are living in.

A couple of year ago those who got a seat they were saying anybody critizing their P2F where just loser who were not able to achieve what they had achieved and now they are facing a system that is collapsing and that don't need them anymore.

NO money , NO party.

[Icelanta]

Clamshowder,

P2F is a disgrace, and all involved are not worth to be considered collegues.
A lot of experienced flightcrew can not find a PAID job to feed their family because of cheaters and profession murderer kids like you.

ONLY FLY FOR A SALARY.

[POS_INT]

You are quite correct in your statement that p2f schemes are not readily available, I personally only ever knew of eaglejet but they have stopped there jet programmes now.

As far as I'm aware there are no p2f schemes in the current market :ok:

When these where available via eagle they were not taking on 1st officers they were called gear and flap lever operatives in the job title :8

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Just face it, the industry is failing exponentially -

Only the people who dreamed of becoming a pilot prior to circa 1990 will see out a full career in aviation, the rest should be learning a new trade ready for when their number gets called.

Sad, but true.

[Ronand]

Have you tried, Korean Air?

[Icelanta]

Norwegian is hiring experienced fo's.
Jet2 is hiring experienced B737
FlyDubai is hiring experienced b737
Turkish is hiring experienced B737

[POS_INT]

airlines require 500 hours minimum on type, I don't have a problem with a pilot paying the required fee's to obtain 500 hours.

we all paid for our intial training, how is this so drastically different?

An aspiring pilot who is willing to invest in this shows me sheer dedication to the profession and enthusiasm.

Chamchower - eagle jet international based out of miami use to offer line training with Lion air in Jakarta, but they have stopped now due to a new regualtion by the CAA requiring 250 hours on type.

Skies aviation in UAE use to offer line training with Armavia but this has since stopped. also I think they were contracted to hire 6 cadets for a local charter company but these have since been filled, I work at DXB and have chatted to a few of them.

I am fairly sure they were the only 2 serious companys doing it.

don't worry about the negative comments on here, if you mention this site to any professional pilots they will grin and tell you they dont use it, well at least thats my experince :ok:

[redsnail]

grin and tell you they dont use it,

Of course. :E But they all know it... ;)

[SloppyJoe]

An aspiring pilot who is willing to invest in this shows me sheer dedication to the profession and enthusiasm.


It shows me they don't give a :mad: about the profession as this very act destroys it, they only want to be able to put their pic up on facebook and tell everyone they are a pilot. It's :mad: pathetic.

[Bealzebub]

POS_INTairlines require 500 hours minimum on type, I don't have a problem with a pilot paying the required fee's to obtain 500 hours.

we all paid for our intial training, how is this so drastically different?

An aspiring pilot who is willing to invest in this shows me sheer dedication to the profession and enthusiasm.

Chamchower - eagle jet international based out of miami use to offer line training with Lion air in Jakarta, but they have stopped now due to a new regualtion by the CAA requiring 250 hours on type.

Skies aviation in UAE use to offer line training with Armavia but this has since stopped. also I think they were contracted to hire 6 cadets for a local charter company but these have since been filled, I work at DXB and have chatted to a few of them.

I am fairly sure they were the only 2 serious companys doing it.

don't worry about the negative comments on here, if you mention this site to any professional pilots they will grin and tell you they dont use it, well at least thats my experince




airlines require 500 hours minimum on type, I don't have a problem with a pilot paying the required fee's to obtain 500 hours.

Actually they don't. They don't require any hours on type. Where they stipulate a minimum level of such experience, they are looking for pilots with previous relevant experience. An experienced pilot is likely to have significantly more than 500 hours on type, where they have been working for another airline. However there are circumstances where quality background and low hours are not a paradox. For example a cadetship that didn't develop into a full time contract due to restricted opportunities at the previous airline. An airline that went out of business or had to lay off good quality employees due to trading circumstances. Such circumstances are quite distinct from the "vanity publishing" end of the business. Many of these businesses are well known in the industry, and a definite "red flag" to most reputable carriers.

Cadet programmes are very trainer and resource intensive, but those airlines involved in them have a direct input and assured quality level from low houred pilots. There is nothing magical about 500 hours on type, and most certainly nothing magical about 500 hours acquired from certain carriers and certain parts of the globe.

we all paid for our intial training, how is this so drastically different?
Because line training isn't initial training.

An aspiring pilot who is willing to invest in this shows me sheer dedication to the profession and enthusiasm. Unfortunetaly it rarely shows in the professional quality or enthusiasm of the airline involved. Quality experience isn't hard to find and poor quality experience isn't hard to detect.

don't worry about the negative comments on here, if you mention this site to any professional pilots they will grin and tell you they dont use it, well at least thats my experince

Clearly, not all!

[FlyingStone]

airlines require 500 hours minimum on type, I don't have a problem with a pilot paying the required fee's to obtain 500 hours.

we all paid for our intial training, how is this so drastically different?

And how much of your initial training was done during revenue flights with paying passengers on board?

[Denti]

An aspiring pilot who is willing to invest in this shows me sheer dedication to the profession and enthusiasm.

In the opinion of my peer group and fortunately of my airline it clearly shows extremely poor risk evaluation and very poor judgement. In fact any pilot doing it is deemed unemployable and a complaint to the relevant authority will be made. Someone who cannot correctly evaluate the financial risk of buying linetraining with a shadowy third tier carrier cannot be trusted with an aircraft, its crew and paying passengers.

[POS_INT]

Gear & flap will kill you, everything else will embarase you.

it is near imposiible for any pilot to make it to line if they are not of the highest quality and order. I stand to be corrected on that statement.

[SloppyJoe]

it is near imposiible for any pilot to make it to line if they are not of the highest quality and order. I stand to be corrected on that statement.

Lion Air Flight 8987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-82), crashed after landing at Juanda International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanda_International_Airport).[/URL] Reverse thrust was used during landing, although the left thrust reverser was stated to be out of service. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air#cite_note-asn1-24) This caused the aircraft to veer to the right and skid off the runway, coming to rest about 7,000 feet (2,100 m) from the approach end of the runway. No-one was killed but the aircraft was badly damaged.

Lion Air Flight 792, a Boeing 737-400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air#cite_note-asn1-24), landed with an incorrect flap configuration and was not aligned with the runway. The plane landed hard and skidded along the runway causing the right main landing gear to detach, the left gear to protrude through the wing and some of the aircraft fuselage to be wrinkled. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air#cite_note-asn2-25) No one was killed and the aircraft was written off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Write-off).

Lion Air Flight 712, a Boeing 737-400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Classic) (registration PK-LIQ) overran the runway on landing at Supadio Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supadio_Airport), Pontianak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontianak,_Indonesia), coming to rest on its belly and sustaining damage to its nose gear. All 174 passengers and crew evacuated by the emergency slides, with few injuries reported.

Adam Air Flight 782 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air#cite_note-AH432fa0b7-26), registration number PK-KKE, lost navigational and communications systems twenty minutes into a flight from Jakarta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) to Makassar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar), Sulawesi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulawesi). The plane was subsequently flown into a radar "black spot" and was lost for several hours, eventually making an emergency landing at Tambolaka Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambolaka_Airport), Sumba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumba) (on a different island 481 km away from their intended destination, and southeast from their origin, instead of northeast). The pilot in that incident was fired. Adam Air broke multiple safety regulations, including removing an aircraft before it was due for inspection by aviation authorities.


On January 1, 2007, air traffic controllers lost contact with flight 574 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-safety_concerns-9) en route from Surabaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surabaya) (SUB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanda_International_Airport)) to Manado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manado) (MDC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Ratulangi_Airport)). The aircraft, a Boeing 737-400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737) with the registration PK-KKW, had 96 passengers and 6 crew. On January 10, parts of the aircraft's tail stabilizer were found 300m offshore.
The flight recorders and suspected debris were located, but were not initially recovered due to a dispute between Adam Air and the Indonesian Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Indonesia) over who should pay recovery costs.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-Dispute-11) Both recorders were retrieved after Adam Air agreed to pay for 7 days worth of searching. A 2009 episode of Mayday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28TV_series%29) (Air Crash Investigation, Air Emergency) about Flight 574 stated that the official crash report had concluded the Inertial Reference System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system) (IRS) had failed. This failure, which should not by itself have brought the plane down, caused the pilots to become preoccupied with trying to fix it. After changing the IRS from "Navigate" mode to "Attitude" mode, the pilots failed to manually fly the plane while the computer system recalibrated, a procedure that takes about 30 seconds. The failure to maintain straight and level flight during the recalibration caused the autopilot to completely disengage and cease compensating for the plane's tendency to roll to the right, which caused the nose of the plane to dip. In attempting to correct the pitch of the aircraft before levelling the wings, the pilot sent the aircraft into an unrecoverable downward spiral, leading to the plane suffering massive structural failure as it descended at near the speed of sound.


On February 21, 2007 Flight 172 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air_Flight_172), an Adam Air Boeing 737-300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737) aircraft flying from Jakarta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) to Surabaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surabaya) with registration PK-KKV, had a hard landing at Juanda International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanda_International_Airport). The incident caused the fuselage of the plane to crack and bend at the middle, with the tail of the plane drooping towards the ground. There were no reports of serious injuries from the incident. Subsequent flights to the airport were diverted to alternate airports. As a result, six Adam Air 737s were grounded awaiting safety checks, but five of these were then put back in regular service. Adam Air described this as "harsh punishment" for an accident it blamed on poor weather conditions, but Vice President Jusuf Kalla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-five_now_operating-12) has said that all Boeing 737-300s should be checked.


On March 10, 2008, an Adam Air Boeing 737-400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-Flight_172-13) aircraft flying from Jakarta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) to Batam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batam) skidded 75 metres off the end of the runway while landing in Batam. All passengers survived, with two passengers treated for shock. The plane sustained damage to one wing.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-14)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-15) This accident contributed to the airline's demise, just eight days later, and the formal revocation of its AOC two months later. The incident also illustrated that crew were not trained correctly on evacuation procedures. In particular during the evacuation of this aircraft no slides were deployed to get the passengers off the aircraft.


Consider yourself corrected.


[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air#cite_note-Flight_172-13"]

[latetonite]

Maybe the airline industry is finally realizing that 200 hrs dual in a Cessna, plus a 10 session type rating, followed by three thousand hours following a magenta line, is not the experience what they were looking for in the first place.

[de facto]

If you should think having more hours logged would be better. Unfortunately not. Just forget it. Very sad but true.
e.g.: I have +10,000 hrs PIC on 320's - accident/incident free btw - and you know what ? - no one cares. No one is interested. Sending applications waiting for replies

This aviation business is nothing else but just a $hi...dssaster. Don't see any silvershine at the horizon either.

A321,
If you cant get invited with that experience then it may be time to look elsewhere than your city airline...
Have you applied to Asian carriers?

[POS_INT]

@ Sloppy Joe

very nice long list of P2F accidents, thank you for taking the time to do that.

I can only talk speak from airlines that I have worked for and the standard is very high, if the TRE at Lion/Adam air is just letting pilots go on line willy nilly then of course this is a bad idea.

on the flip side of the coin you could argue that there have been a few experinced pilots whom have made just as bad mistakes, look at AF447

[SloppyJoe]

Not P2F accidents just an insight into that part of the world and the quality of some of the pilots showing that you don't have to be good to get into a front seat.

[POS_INT]

AF447 there was alomst 20,000 hours flight experince between the 3 crew

I am guilty of working in Asia when I was building my career, but the standard was always very high, so I am guessing things have changed.

very bad news that the TRE's are not taking there jobs seriously in that part of the world. makes me angry when the rest of us have to keep such a high standard to stay in our jobs. not that there is anything wrong with keeping a high standard.

[1013.25mb]

POS_INT

You don't understand it though do you.......?

makes me angry when the rest of us have to keep such a high standard to stay in our jobs.

You're not going to keep your job at all if people like you, or anyone else, pays to fly commercial aircraft around the sky with passengers in the back. When you do that, its not a job, its a hobby. By all means, take your hobby seriously, but just change your hobby from paying to fly jets around the sky!

Jeez, airline management saw you coming didn't they........ :rolleyes:

[POS_INT]

last time I checked I was paid to fly the aircraft not the other way round, anyway enough about me, thats not whats being disscused here.

listen up, there is nothing wrong with pilots buying in to airlines, what is the big problem for you?

these chaps need the experince, and if you actually went out and networked with these guys you would have a better understanding of it.

you are one of these gready pilots that only cares about himself, and wants no one else to enter the inner circle of commercial airlines. well the world does not revolve around you my freind and you need to learn that things wont always go your way :D you need to encourage and support EVERYONE in aviation, whats being said here is quite childish.

the line training that does take place is such a small number it does not affect anything! there are no notices going up around major airlines saying pay has been dropped due to 3 or 4 pilots under taking line training come man!!

[Journey Man]

It's indicative of the aviation industry that experience is over looked for cheap labour whilst at the same time safety groups are bemoaning the lack of handling skills and experience in the cockpit.

One aspect that causes me increasing concern is the character of pilots taking such debilitating terms and conditions. Commercial pressures are always going to seep down the line and be applied to flightcrew. It's our responsibility to be the last line of defence between the pressure and temptation operations departments are subject to and the safe execution of the flight. Operations departments have their pressures; we have ours. I have reservations about the motivation and ability of the P2F pilot to stand up to such pressure. They've already capitulated and would economically be in a vulnerable position. The astronomical levels of investment are creating a docile flight deck increasingly unable to withstand commercial pressure. I can only see this situation deteriorating as P2F flightcrew move up the ranks.

One of the basic tenants of the air operator structure is the isolation of the flight crew from anything but safety concerns. Whilst we all experience varying shades of grey in our work and there is certainly room for 'commercial airmanship' where we do all we can to assist the profitability of our employer within the bounds of safety; there will be times when we get isolated and have to make critical safety decisions.

I hope I have conveyed myself correctly. I don't judge pilots who pay to fly - maybe you've hit the ceiling with 5000 hours of TP and can't make the jump to a more sustainable career path; maybe you're fresh out of school and your aspirations are clouding the council of experienced pilots. Whichever it is, the financial debt entailed in P2F doesn't bode well for being the last line of safety.

To the OP, best of luck.

[captjns]

Can't blame the airline for the P2F schemes. It puts more money in the bank for the company and bonuses for the executives. However their greed is clouded by the importance of the safety of operation. 2 fully qualified crewmembers in the front. Not the Captain who is becoming a baby sitter and the wannabe in the right seat who'se along for the ride.

P2F schemes undermines the ethics of our industry. P2F schemes undermines safety of operation. P2F schemes continue to lower the bar. P2F schemes erodes respect and integrity.

I'm all for training bonds. Pilot does not complete his/her obligation, then a prorated amount is paid to the company. No repayment? No release of records to next carrier.

Bottom line, IMO, there is no place for P2Fers in our industry.

[Icelanta]

Well, the company I WORK for refuses to hire anybody with a P2F history:ok:
Bad decisionmaking, lack of long-term view and maturity and a simple disregard for the value and responsability of being an Airline pilot are but some of the reasons why.:D:D

[Wesker]

Icelanta

Well, the company I WORK for refuses to hire anybody with a P2F history
Bad decisionmaking, lack of long-term view and maturity and a simple disregard for the value and responsability of being an Airline pilot are but some of the reasons why.

makes sense :rolleyes:... "real pilots" are given jobs because of their Top Gun quality... fake pilots just pay with their credit card and are instantly put on the line with a baby sitter...

:ugh:

P2F is becoming more and more the normal way how to get in to this industry. It is not a shortcut like a lot of people seems to be thinking.

Yes it is ruining the chances for us established pilots to find employment but we what have to be real about it. The conditions I got hired under is something the young pilots at my local flying club can only dream of. They have no TR, no time on time, no experience. Even a personal recommendation would not help them. They are just an expense for the company. So I don't blame pilots who do P2F programs. How else are they gonna get the experience?

There are just to many pilots out there looking for a job :sad:

[captjns]

Wesker seems to think P2F is becoming more and more the normal way how to get in to this industry. It is not a shortcut like a lot of people seems to be thinking.

I'll bet all the P2Fers will agree with you. And I'll bet the majority of us who ascended through the ranks via normal professional prgression would disagree with you.

[Icelanta]

Wesler, your opinion is an insult to all PROFESSIONAL Flightcrew Worldwide :mad:

P2F pilots should be banished from the flightdeck, Captains should refuse to operate with a paying passenger in the First Officer seat, and airlines should be blacklisted.

[Wesker]

P2F pilots should be banished from the flightdeck, Captains should refuse to operate with a paying passenger in the First Officer seat, and airlines should be blacklisted.

I totally agree with you. In my opinion P2F should be banned by changes in ICAO/local regulations. Simple as that. No self sponsored training with paying passengers on board and no flying without normal salary. Much more strict regulations on the use of contract workers would also be welcomed...

:ok:

[Airbus_a321]

Much more strict regulations on the use of contract workers would also be welcomed...

:mad: Stay in your Ivory-Tower. You must be "blind" and quixotic.
Pray to g0d or someone else that you will never have to earn your money as just a "contract-pilot".
Maybe - no - for shure - you are too $tupid to realize, but working as a contract-pilots is in very seldom cases your own choice, but an urgent must to survive and to buy food for family and kids. And believe me and be aware that almost all of the contract-pilots had a good and a stable job before - maybe like you have at this moment - . But they were victims of e.g. incomepetent airline "managers", the downturn and economical crisis and also P2F pilots, who fill any seat, for less money.

Never saw such an arrogant,naughty statement ever in all my life.

I do not appologize for getting personal - and for shure I did not understand you statement wrong, because it was really very clear to me,:mad:

I am so angry about our post, and although I have a very good education I could not resist to do this post.
Feel a$.hame WESKER :\

[POS_INT]

:ugh:Guys come on lets get real here! your letting your frustration colour your perceptions on P2F

Just beacuase someone has been on a P2F scheme doesnt instantly make them a bad pilot.

take yourself, if you were forced to P2F for whatever reason would you instantly brand yourself as someone who cannot fly?

if you are accepted for a P2F scheme it is no different to a new pilot comming in from other avenues ie instructing etc.

so you are wrong to say that P2F pilots are bad pilots, there are some that could be even better than you! :D

I say we all encourage saftey in aviation! no matter how you got there! conflicts of interest on how you got to where you are today have no place in the cockpit

[truckflyer]

I don't believe the issue about contract pilots is that they are not as able pilots, it is more about the forever degrading condition, which have been seen over the industry, and those jobs the P2F brigade are dreaming of after they finish their P2F, they are not there anymore! As there are loads of guys who have NOT done P2F, with more experience, and still not getting a look in at the good jobs, so think about that, before you let yourself into more debts!

It's tempting but also very counter - productive!

[camel]

the P2F thing has now got momentum, its got legs . it will not stop until 150++ innocent people eventually die a horrible death due to the actions of a P2F 'pilot'..then the media will have a field day on the whole P2F rubbish . then the regulators will finally be forced to do something.

sad but imho true.:mad:

[truckflyer]

Camel:
Again, that is not the real issue, nobody is saying that P2F pilot's are less able pilots! Some might be, but that for me is not a very strong argument against P2F!
Than again, I guess making arguments is not always about being smart! :ugh:

[Wesker]

Airbus a321

wesker
Quote:
Much more strict regulations on the use of contract workers would also be welcomed...
Stay in your Ivory-Tower. You must be "blind" and quixotic.
Pray to g0d or someone else that you will never have to earn your money as just a "contract-pilot".
Maybe - no - for shure - you are too $tupid to realize, but working as a contract-pilots is in very seldom cases your own choice, but an urgent must to survive and to buy food for family and kids. And believe me and be aware that almost all of the contract-pilots had a good and a stable job before - maybe like you have at this moment - . But they were victims of e.g. incomepetent airline "managers", the downturn and economical crisis and also P2F pilots, who fill any seat, for less money.

Never saw such an arrogant,naughty statement ever in all my life.

I do not appologize for getting personal - and for shure I did not understand you statement wrong, because it was really very clear to me,

I am so angry about our post, and although I have a very good education I could not resist to do this post.
Feel a$.hame WESKER

eh...

:D

You are right. Contract work sucks. People need real and stable employment to be able to live a normal life. That's why I think the use of contract workers should be much more limited. At the moment the airlines are abusing the system and avoiding hiring anyone permanently at all cost.

[cldrvr]

Guys come on lets get real here! your letting your frustration colour your
perceptions on P2F


so you reckon paying the likes of eJ or FR 100k and giving up 30k a year in salary is acceptable to do a bit of hobby flying untill they find a cheaper bunch to replace you with?

The beancounters at the locos love guys like you, pay them to fly and train with pax on board and give up 30% in pay to do so, an accountants wet dream.

[cldrvr]

Just beacuase someone has been on a P2F scheme doesnt instantly make them
a bad pilot.

There are hundreds of posts on these forums of LHS drivers complaining how crap and incompetent the P2F bunch are, but of course you can't see that, you are the problem, not part of the solution.

[POS_INT]

there is hardly any P2F out there anyways, what are we all worried about.

I am supportive of P2F as it creates extra work and reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me

[captjns]

POS_INT needs to get his head out of the sand and do his homework. Lion Air with the assistance of Falcon Aviation and Eagle Aviation have been a major supplier of P2Fers.

There's always work for reputable TRIs and TREs at reputable carriers.

[truckflyer]

"reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me" - POS_INT

Yes the truth out of the bag, it's all about me, me and me! :ugh:

The one day, they will not need TRI/TRE, as they will have drone pilot sitting in an office in India on minimum pay!

[parabellum]

When it comes to DEC with a sizeable carrier, the company will have an agreement with its pilots' association or union to protect the futures of its own first officers. This is usually achieved by setting the bar quite high for DEC, type rated may require double the hours a senior FO would need to upgrade and non-type rated will require even more as they are getting a type rating and will possibly be bonded too.

[crwkunt roll]

So I don't blame pilots who do P2F programs. How else are they gonna get the experience?

The same way we all did when jobs were "hard" to find, get off your arse, your computer, and go and find one!

[tommoutrie]

here's one way you could solve the problem. This industry tolerates an awful lot of people who aren't really very good at their jobs. Some TRE's and flight schools are very reluctant to fail people for poor performance. What should happen is that the crap ones fail, get some retraining, and if they fail again they are out. What actually happens is that everyone turns a blind eye! If the standard was raised and a few people moved on, the best of the newbies would have jobs to move into. At the moment there will be some exceptional new pilots out there who are totally unable to commence their careers and that is bad for the industry.

[Superpilot]

Hopelessly out of touch most of you. The choices for those entering this industry who want to fly for an airline are:

1.) To get raped by Big School Inc by paying €85,000 (€120,000+ after interest) for ab-initio training and then through the Big School Inc connections hopefully get a job (most do)

2.) Go modular paying in the region of €40-50,000 and then SSTR + hours

Option 1 doesn't work for those with family/financial commitments because they can't train part time or can't provide the loan security.

Option 2 exists to make it a level playing field as those who go for Option 1 get first shot at most job opportunities with the big airlines.

And I second the comment above. This industry is full of talentless super-ego maniacs who are only in their position because of nepotism or connections. This is as big a cancer in aviation so don't talk about P2Fers not "deserving a flying job"! Most P2F guys have endured years of suffering before making the move. It's not as black and white as you might think. To let opportunity after opportunity go and see the situation get worse and to not have a single interview opportunity for almost 4 years after graduating results in drastic and desperate measures.

We're not all spoilt little brats with daddy's cash to spend. This is a fantasy that those of you who can't afford to P2F would love to believe. I, like most committed pilots worked my ass off to get to where I am and the only way that was possible was to do something someone else wasn't prepared to do. That is the reality of life my friends and this is coming from someone who used to lecture others about the evils of P2F.

[Icelanta]

And now you will be lectured and indeed spat on by those who do care for this profession and who manage to look further than their own nose.
"superpilot" you are not. change your name into SuperSpender, Supercheater or Superidiot. it is way more appropriate.
Out of touch?! Grow some brain, but I should really not blame you, I should blame the flight academies that nowadays accept any fool to become an Airline pilot without the traditional hard selection phases:mad: That is the cause why we have so many unfit miscreants flooding the market:ugh::ugh::mad:

[SimonK]

I wholly agree with Superpilot and I think P2F is very unfortunate for all involved but it is a fact of life now and the only way into the industry for many.

Not an airline pilot myself, (just about to start work offshore RW after the mil) but I have many friends who are in airlines. I found it gobsmacking how many of my buddies colleagues could not get any flying work after their IR and I find it hard to blame any of them for trying their best to get on in a terminally depressed market. In their shoes, I am sure I would do exactly the same.

I only hope the RW world does not go down the same P2F model as FW, although the perceived relative lack of glamour probably serves to deter the majority from offshore etc....

[truckflyer]

I think what some fail to understand here, management in various companies are using P2F - as part of their income revenue, when planning their companies business budget/structure!

This means X amounts of jobs that would normally be available for FO's, are no longer available, as they are no longer jobs!

So if there in 2013 as an example was 1000 pilot jobs available, maybe of these there would be 100 new jobs due to retirement/medical failures etc., so all of US would be applying for those 100 jobs, however now with P2F, 20 of those jobs are no longer available, as these are going to P2F!

This means there are only 80 jobs left, so few jobs, the ones who did P2F, will stop at 500 hours / 300 hours, the ones in job will be getting more hours, but there will be fewer jobs to apply for, unless you want to keep paying, but that is not work anymore!

[CCDiscoB]

Found on job ad for Korean Airlines:
If successful at screening you will need to arrange and pay for your own B777 type rating.:eek: Is this the ultimate example of P2F?

[Icelanta]

We should go back to state schools, increasing the difficulty level of the ATPL theory, getting rid of this ridiculous question bank, and most of all, introduce a good selection before admission with aso called numerus clausus. Decimate the intake of ab initio students and you will see terms and conditions increase.

[flash8]

Perhaps a closer look at the Kos incident again is in order, as to me this really did demonstrate the wider issues somewhat succinctly.

What would have happened if the LHS had become incapacitated?

It is a scary thought.

[Superpilot]

Icelanta, learn some manners my friend. Before I could pay to fly, I had to work (hard) in another industry to earn because the money didn't come from thin air. Neither you or I invented the rules. I couldn't beat the idiots so I had to join them. The difference is I'm man enough to admit it. An unfortunate means to an end. Darwinism and all that.

[POS_INT]

good on you super pilot, I am sure all the P2F community would love for the situation to be different, but it is what it is.

you must have worked so hard to get you licence, and why sit at home with no job watching everyone else take the P2F chance and get it to the industry.

getting a job and making use of your licence is much more important than pride, if you sit at home and let the chance pass you by, someone else WILL take it!!

P2F is so much more than paying to sit in an aircraft, you gain an even deeper understanding of your equipment, you get use to how an airline works and what qualitys you need to posses, your learn so much!! its invaluable experince.

if your already in the airlines and have a steady job, its so easy to rant about P2F, but what about the guys with no job? what about these guys? no one should be left behind.

I bet there are a lot of Commercial pilots that cannot afford to P2F, these are the real heart breaks of the industry as they have very little chance to make it in to an airline.

[Skyhigh86]

The sad fact is pos_init is that people will always be left behind. Do you think there's a job out there as a lawyer for every person on the planet that gains a law degree?

Flying schools will take almost anyone willing to pay. Unfortunately these people think they are somehow owed an airline job as a result.
I just cannot understand how the pay to flyers think they will suddenly be offered a full time contract straight after they have paid an airline to work, it's madness.
It's pretty obvious the outfit I work for could hardly be called ethical, just thank Jeebus that they havnt started the pay to fly route. Yet......

People will be left beind full stop, this is the airline industry not a charity for dreamy eyed pilots.

[POS_INT]

yes you are quite right, its a creuel world isnt it.

the pilots that have jobs and are living there dreams should count themselfs very lucky.

the aviation industry is similar to other glamourous profession's such as a professional footballer.

there will always be lots of people chasing the dream! I just wish it didnt cost these guys so much money.

get a roof over your head of paid for! see the world a bit! and if there is still some money left learn to fly! :ok:

the flying schools are there to make money, and will tell you the moon is made out of cream cheese.

and again, flying is adictive, like a drug, and you somehow make yourself belive that you will be ok at the end of all the training, a bit like the feeling you get when you buy a lotto ticket! mayby just mayby!!

You know there is even competeition for the P2F jobs now, and some companys are starting to short list!!

[What Now]

I'm sorry I'm a little confused. Can we clarify what Pay to Fly actually is before we start laying into each other?

The fantastic offer which I declined was a 70% contract for which the 100% salary was £45,182 70% of which was £31,627 which was going to be paid over 12 months so £2635.58 per month. All sounding not too bad so far?

So I was to work for 8.4 months and get paid £2635.58 per month for 12. But they assured me that almost all 70% guys got picked up to 100% contracts on completion of the first 9 months but you don't get the £7906.75 back which they owe you for the time you should now be off. Additionally I was to pay for my type rating at £25,000 and be bonded for the line training. They generously offered a 30% reduction in my type rating costs because I was on a 70% contract.

So, and please feel free to jump in here and explain why I'm wrong, by my reckoning I was getting paid £23,720 for nine months work and was paying them £7906.75 + £17,500 = £25,406.75

Overall then that was a net payment from me to them of £1686.75 none of which was tax deductible which makes the sums much worse from my viewpoint.

This was not considered a pay to fly scheme, how exactly? I simply cannot afford to keep a family at that rate and hence didn't take the job. However a lot of guys I know did.

Am I a little jealous that I was not in the financial position to take the job? Well yes a bit.

Do I think that the aviation industry is a better place for this sort of thing? Not really.

You can only do your best and if that isn't good enough then perhaps you need to move on. Perhaps it's time I moved on.

[FlyingStone]

P2F is so much more than paying to sit in an aircraft, you gain an even deeper understanding of your equipment, you get use to how an airline works and what qualitys you need to posses, your learn so much!! its invaluable experince.

Surely, the most important quality which a professional pilot has to posses is ability to pay airline loads of money instead of actually getting paid for working.

no one should be left behind.

Currently, there is a surplus of wannabe pilots over available jobs. This doesn't mean that everybody will get employed, but the math is simple... If there are 100 unemployed pilots and 10 positions available, airline would hire the best 10 pilots from the list of 100. Or - in your case - airline management see that pilots with wet CPL are [insert more or less polite noun describing P2F pilots] and decides that it's best to allow 10 P2F pilots to pay for 500 hours and then exchange them for 10 new guys with wet CPL...

The sad truth is - not everyone who is finanically able to fund CPL is jet airliner material... CPL and IR pass standards are set relatively low - they are design to test if a pilot is safe, not if one has the ability to progress further down route.

[bamboo30]

No jobs then blame P2F pilots cos daddy paid for their jobs. You paid for your Flight school didn't ya, didnt you just took an opportunity from another kid who couldnt pay for cpl? If only theres no self sponsored flying school, there be less pilots and all sponsored by the airline, TnCs would be much better, stop blaming mate and kerp on trying.

[Hunter86]

P2F is one way to go and such guys shouldn't be judged for doing it. It is a difficult industry to brake into let's face it. At the end of the day, the men are separated from the boys at the sim ride at the interview. There P2F doesn't count as all majors don't allow P2F anyway. So guys should forget about it and relax a little. We all had to pay for type ratings at some point, just some guys take it a little further - maybe cause they struggle to fly well......just kidding.

[Flying Clog]

Hunter86 - complete :mad:

The men aren't separated from the boys in the sim, not when they're paying for the seat, that's precisely the problem. It's unsafe. It will all come to a head when there's a big smoking hole in the ground and a public outcry that we let this industry deteriorate to this level.

I've never paid for an interview, cv, sim, type rating etc. Anyone who has or does is a fool and a danger to himself, his passengers, the industry, and my career!

Back in your box..

:ugh:

As an aside, I'm earning a whisker over 20,000 USD per month as an F/O on a wide body, and I put that down in part to the fact that I DID NOT SELL OUT like all the newbies coming into the industry now.

Do you really think that the P2F lot can ever dream of achieving these sort of earnings? Not when they're sending a clear message to the airline industry.... bloody fools.

:=

[vilas]

I don't know why we are looking p2f in isolation. Commercial flying is taken up as a carreer not merely for adventure. If you have spent a small fortune in getting CPL and industry situation has changed, you need to put in some more to get a start anyone who can would do it. Ethics and morality can only be expected cannot be enforced. People with money always are at advantage. They live in better houses , eat better food get better health care. Lament is justified but it is a fact of life. I don't think anyone would give up flying because of principals.

[FlyingStone]

As an aside, I'm earning a whisker over 20,000 USD per month as an F/O on a wide body, and I put that down in part to the fact that I DID NOT SELL OUT like all the newbies coming into the industry now.

I actually find it hard to believe that an FO can earn 20 k$ after tax - unless of course it's before tax in which case it's only useful for substitution of measuring a certain male organ...

You may not agree with me, but salary isn't everything. For example, you get offered a large salary to work all the time straight to the limits (and sometimes beyond). Wouldn't that be considered as a sell out by somebody who earns 10% less, but has much more civilised T&Cs?

I will say that we as pilots should stop the P2F, but the highest burden lies with the SFI/TRIs and line training captains. If they say no to training people who are not being paid, surely then the P2F concept cannot exist?

[Flying Clog]

Hang on a minute FlyingStone.

1. Your theory about training captains checking these numpties is rubbish for a start. Pressure will be applied as and when necessary by the company, and checkers will be brought into line, or shifted.

2. I earn 20,000 usd a month (total package), pre tax, which is 16% in my neck of the woods. So, I'm walking away with about 17k usd a month (salary plus housing allowance/equity).

Pushing hours, t and c's? I work 12 days a month, 18 OFF, about 75-80 duty hour a month.

Guess where I live in SE Asia!

I'm not afraid to wave my willy around. More of us should. Maybe then these idiotic new joiners would realise what sort of package (!) they should be demanding.

In the meantime, stand by for some smoking holes in the ground...

SFO anyone?

Examine yourselves, and be ashamed. Idiots.

[south coast]

Clam

You keep asking where all the P2F jobs are and that because there doesn't currently appear to be many of them that somehow they do not affect the industry.

You need to rewind a little, Ryanair have been making people pay €20,000 odd for ratings, basically buying a job, which then in turn has such low T&Cs that those people will pretty much do whatever they are told because they need a salary, check out the Ryanair threads, and I fear people in those situations are bringing about unsafe situations because they don't have the strength of character or job security to say NO when they feel things unsafe.

That's a direct result of P2F or buying a rating.

Also the CTC scheme was the same, buy a rating, but then no operator would take you with no time on type, the thinking was then, I'm already in for 20k, I might as well buy the 500 hours of line training otherwise the type rating is lost.

You say people are desperate for the jobs and they deserve a chance and shouldn't be criticised for paying, that's not how a job works, a job pays you and if that job requires training, the operator will train you, by all means bond the individual to protect that investment, but there is no defence for buying a rating or hours other than you want to buy an advantage, that's it pure and simple.

If no one did it, it would die out, but because of all the deluded reasons you convince yourself as good and relevant for doing P2F, it will never stop.

How many doctors or lawyers or dentists pay for a position with a company after they have qualified, why are pilots any different? Its simply because people want to leap frog others and are prepared to pay to do so.

It is nothing short of a disgrace and P2F has destroyed T&Cs and changed operators opinions and business models of what a pilot is, it used to be someone who primarily flew the plane, now they are considered firstly as a way for the operator to make money from.

Pat yourself on the back for that!

[lenses]

Hello guys,

I am an expat in asia, have just about 2000h on a320 and would like to come back to europe.
Could be surprising I know, but, to be honest, I don't think the expat life is for me now.
The thing is, I know what I will lose, but I don't know what I will find. Anyway, even right now, my contract is a pilot contractor, so, not so stable neither.

My question could appear naive, but I have been wondering how is the market according to that experience ? (I have 3000h total, as 2000h on jet, as f/o)

I know it's tough in Eu, but actually I never applied since that, so I have no idea about the market with an experience now.
Apparently this topic does not seem optimistic...but, im still asking.

The thing is I feel not so happy now.
What about Easy jet for exemple ? Or SFI, is SFI in demand ? Of I don't seek only on 320 actually, Im opened for others position (corporate etc) as long as I could find something. I am in the point now that I seek more a lifestyle than a planestyle.

[M-ONGO]

What about Easy jet for exemple ? Or SFI, is SFI in demand ? Of I don't seek only on 320 actually, Im opened for others position (corporate etc) as long as I could find something.

Open for corporate positions? How open minded of you.

Corporate operators generally want hours on type these days, just look around. There are few exceptions. We are the last bastion of civilisation, where most (not all) don't tolerate P2F pilots. Rightly so. Ex airline guys also meet some flack, as many would jump back to the airlines at the first chance. Operators like loyalty and usually reward it handsomely. They prefer to employ other corporate pilots with proven track records.

Don't think corporate is easy either, we can be away from base for a heck of a long time, generally flying with the same guys.

Good luck either way,

[172510]

100% agree with the question bank being abolished. Because some use it, all have to use it because it isn't fair. The examining body then makes the questions harder because people are getting such high % which means the questions are so hard they can't be done without using the question bank because there isn't enough time to revise all the subjects in 6 months. Cyclic idiocy.
Don't do it in 6 months. How can you imagine that in 6 months your can grasp for good the knowledge required to fly a big jet after having flown 100 hours in a C172 ?
I think that this fATPL thing is ridiculous. You should first pass IFR knowledge and CPL knowledge test, then fly for several hundred hours before being allowed to take the ATPL knowledge test.
You shouldn't be allowed to touch the control of a CS25 jet without several hundreds hours of IFR flying experience.
Etc.