737 or A320

[hawaijahaj]

I know there is a slump for 320 guys and going for 320 typerating is useless coz of kingfisher......But my question is ..... IS IT A GOOD TIME TO GO FOR A 737 TYPE??

With future A/C orders it looks a nice weather for 737 guys. Whatsay ?:suspect::suspect:

[bhambri]

I still think A320 is a better option for long run if you see the number of orders. I know right now due to Kf the market is not that good for A320 rated guys but I think it will improve in 4-6 months.

ATR second safe bet. As regional connectivity policy will be soon announced.

[hawaijahaj]

What about 737 ? Jet is coming with vacancies....and heard that air india express will also open as soon as the 787 fiasco is over.....spice also looking good in future

[Wesker]

Don't gamble on a 737 type. There are so many pilots out there with a considerable amount of time on type looking for work. If a company needs an F/O they can easily find one with 1000-2000h on type who will accept a contract.

A320 is also a gamble but maybe better in the long run?

Just remember that you are choosing between the less of two evils here... A low hour pilot with a fresh TR isn't exactly the airlines dream candidate at this time...

[thegrapevine]

best buy would be an ATR type rating. Jet, Air India, Quikjet, and a couple of other companies fly ATR's and a few upcoming airlines are also planning for ATR's. Also the neighboring countries have a good fleet of ATR's specially if you look in the South East.

[cyrilroy21]

I would wait for the new Route Dispersal Guidelines to be published by MoCA

This could alter the order books of the aircraft type to be inducted by the airlines in India

It should be published by the end of Feb or beginning of March

There is no shortage of 737 or 320 rated pilots . Dont forget that it costs about 2 lakh rupees to renew the IR rating as well every year

[PEC]

best buy would be an ATR type rating.
Perfect, and on what account is this assumption made?:mad:

Jet, Air India, Quikjet, and a couple of other companies fly ATR's and a few upcoming airlines are also planning for ATR's.
Jet Airways - Has enough of First Officer's - 107 at last count. The Fleet is in a limbo between the 72-500 and the latest -600.
Last time they called in TR Guys for a written - about 60+ appeared for 14 vacancies. Mind you this was before the KingFisher debacle, so now they do a wide range to choose from. The F/O Intake minima has therefore risen to 100 Hours on Type (ATR 72-500). Good Luck with that.


Air India(Alliance Air) - Shoddy airline doing shoddy flying in shoddy places with shoddy aircraft. Screwed themselves by getting kicked out of the North-East. Fleet size has decresed to 4 now, with only 1 aircraft taking to the skies on a given day. On the Verge of closing down CCU as a base, with MAA soon to follow(if not closed down already)

Quikjet - Min. Req for F/Os - To be released to fly with a Line Captain on the 72-200. That's easier said than done, unless you worked for Deccan.

StartUps - Name them please. Paramount? Dream on - Surprised if they ever take off AGAIN! Pegasus? - Yawn!A huge one like a Hippo!

Also the neighboring countries have a good fleet of ATR's specially if you look in the South East.
Point out one other Country that hires TR CO-Pilots + No Time on Type for any version of the ATR Series, unless its a P2F.:ugh:

[Johny Boy]

For A320 :

Indigo - Too many rated guys( CAE + Open market ) are waiting since last almost 2 years courtesy Mr. Mallya.Plus Indigo wont stop doing self sponsored 320 TR for bare CPL holders as they make more money out of that.:\

Go Air - Last 320 rated exam got more than 80+ pilots with hours on type.Before that they took exam but never came out with result...So anybody's guess what next they might do in future 320 intake.:*

KFA - Almost out and biting dust...Won;t fly again till KFA uncle and his top pimps don't distribute barrels of Scotch...Still that wont be enough.:E

AI Domestic - Too many pilots with 320 under their belt but they are logging too few hours per month.With AI managment only GOD knows what they will do next :sad:


For 737 :

Jet - 2011 Feb exam for CPL holders are waiting for next assessment ....recruited many KFA ATR /320 pilots.Next week they have invited 737 rated guys for exam and same goes for experienced ATR pilots from lost hope KFA....So they might induct few more but certainly not in bucket load.

Spice - You got contact = You got JOB . You got contact = You get called for exam ( If any ).Simple as that...many would say i got job because i studied...and that's bull****.Rating or no rating....if you got contact = you got job. Spicejet is evergreen ...:ok:

AIX - Always looking for captains/check pilots / examiners ......only time they come up with co pilot vacancies are when daddies in AI think their kids are big for new toys. Ohh by the way they always change something or other thing to make it easy for privileged lots in adverts.But they need pilots thick and fast so one can hope.

ATR : For this rating

LOL :E:E

Cargo / Regional - :=:=


Best is to wait this time...or get 737 but then again its risk.Maintaing Rating year after year with no job is even costlier than maintaining high cost girlfriend or wife's:}:}

Sorry but that's my take.

[CF680E1]

So getting a TR without a job offer seems to be about as useful as a Maruti 800 type rating. :(
What happened to Volk?

[bhambri]

Volk for the time being has disappeared.

A320 a better option in long run and IC will come up for sure this year for A320 rated guys.

[cyrilroy21]

@PEC

I wouldnt be that quick to write off about Paramount Airways

They have 1650 crore in the Bank account from the litigation money they won recently in the UK
While I believe they have debts from the past , they will still have enough money to buy 6 ATR 72 at full price instead of taking a lease


@Johny Boy
Long time no post on PPRuNe :)

@CF680E1
Volk never had any approval from the Ministry to start an airline.......

[Johny Boy]

bhambri

Volk for the time being has disappeared.

A320 a better option in long run and IC will come up for sure this year for A320 rated guys.

Never ever trust or believe regional's/start up's those are new in game....money is the name of game.At this time every new name pops out with only one purpose and all knows what that is ! :bored::bored:

AI management wanted to take 100 rated pilots from market some time in late august or so and guess what was in offer for fresh ZERO hour rated pilots - 100 Hours Min on Type for basic requirements :uhoh: which was rightly rejected by union of IC with a simple one word - Strike :E

You see unemployed/grounded/terminated ( choose any one of them ) KFA pilots will rule the game of recruitment for sometime for 320 TR intake till every inch of gold puppies or flying donkey's are down and belted on 320 cockpit ( Read C0ck Pitty ).

Cyrilroy - Was sipping some sort of alcoholic concoction on tropical sandy beach before some one spotted me with PPRUNE page out in open and let known my secret of lately being passive lurker of this network.:E:E
Hope you are doing great community service on this site.:ok:


Last take of mine - 320 is better for longer time....but when will longer time come...will it ever come..by the time it does come there will be another long list of 320 guys on floor wishing they went just a tad early then rest ? Another thing is seeing 737 guys getting called for anal exams or c0ckpit simulations would certainly kill every last inch of humour out of me if i was thinking of 320 rating any time soon.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[PEC]

@ Cyril Mathew Roy
@PEC
I wouldnt be that quick to write off about Paramount Airways
Really? What makes you "write them ON" then? Being Optimistic or Pesimistic doesn't help anyone, being Realistic does.

They have 1650 crore in the Bank account from the litigation money they won recently in the UK
1650 Crores? I believe the Settlement never took place so far, not to mention ELC isn't going to lump-sum 1650 Crores to Thiagarajan's Bonfire.
Paramount has always been Thiagarajan's brand extension of Himself, his acheivements, his laurels - Not the other way around. No wonder he has his balls to the wall, at the drop of a hat.

While I believe they have debts from the past , they will still have enough money to buy 6 ATR 72 at full price instead of taking a lease
6 ATR 72-600s Exacto - Have you checked the Delivery time frame on those babies?

Cyrilroy -Hope you are doing great community service on this site.
Boy....and how!:ok:

[cyrilroy21]

@PEC

All my info regarding Paramount is from the various news articles that have been floating around lately

You can read them here

The Hindu : Business / Companies : Paramount Airways plans to restart by May (http://www.thehindu.com/business/companies/paramount-airways-plans-to-restart-by-may/article4365837.ece)

Mentioned in the above article

“The money has now come into our account, and we are finalising plans to restart operations in April. The DGCA has given its go-ahead. There was no liability on the company as the airline was making profit for three years prior to closing down,” the Paramount Airlines official said asking not to be named


http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/506045-paramount-airways-use-litigation-cash-take-skies-again.html#post7651890

I agree news articles are not always reliable when it comes to aviation . But if you have any info or reason to believe that they wont be starting operations then please do share it with us

The only reason as far as I can see stopping them is if their past debts take away a huge size of their litigation money
or
The Home Ministry Denies a security clearance to the promoters of Paramount Airways due to the CBI case filed against them.

[bhambri]

@johny boy

About Volk I just answered someone's question. I never trust any new start-ups until they show up on MOCA's website.

About A320 I'm still optimistic because mots of the KF guys are flying with either Jet Spice or Indigo and the rest are being adsorbed by Go slowly.

And @ 6e's bringing in A320's and seeing at the recruitment process they hire guys atleast a year head before they start I see them hiring maybe in next 6-8 months.

[Johny Boy]

About A320 I'm still optimistic because mots of the KF guys are flying with either Jet Spice or Indigo and the rest are being adsorbed by Go slowly.

And @ 6e's bringing in A320's and seeing at the recruitment process they hire guys atleast a year head before they start I see them hiring maybe in next 6-8 months.

80+ KFA pilots gave exam in Go air for 7 positions ( make it 10 at max ) ...
At Indigo there are 120+ airbus rated pilots warming bench since 2011 july from various recruitment drive plus april 2012 cae assessment cpl holders in wait for next stage and you believe that they will hire in 6-8 months .....:ugh:
Jet took about 20 or so of airbus guys for A330. They have again called ATR pilots with hours on type so comfort yourself about Jet which has kept cpl holders from 2011 feb exam in dark for two years and Jet don't even operate 320....:zzz:
Spice well they took mostly ATR guys for Dash and handful of airbus.

Yes Indigo got lion share of new KFA pilots ( 300 or so ) but they have stopped taking them since last march so where will rest of flying donkey's will go now and did i ever mentioned about IAF pilots trying to cut in civil world ?:}:}


Indigo / Go / AI /Spice - All are bringing planes but most are as replacements not capacity addition. Jet are trying hard to find buyers for 777 and same goes for AI..but didn't we hear same thing about plane orders and bull**** from late 2004 till 2010 that created mad jungle rush to become pilots ?
Hell everyone knows what happened back then....No one can map or time this industry and that's a fact.

Sir kindly don't give false hope to someone who is in hopeless position since long time as maintaining rating is expensive option.:(

[cyrilroy21]

Well.......about IndiGo.........

IndiGo allowed to import only 5 planes - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/IndiGo-allowed-to-import-only-5-planes/articleshow/18436917.cms)

[PEC]

Sir kindly don't give false hope to someone who is in hopeless position since long time as maintaining rating is expensive option.
The only sensible statement I have read on this thread. Well done Johnny Boy. Someone had to say it. "Aviators" talking about the LONG RUN in an industry that doesn't know what the next quarter holds. :ugh:

[PEC]

Cyril,

I agree news articles are not always reliable when it comes to aviation
You said it.

The only reason as far as I can see stopping them is if their past debts take away a huge size of their litigation money
or
The Home Ministry Denies a security clearance to the promoters of Paramount Airways due to the CBI case filed against them.
You said it again. With so many variables in the equation you still find reason enough to "Write-them-ON"?
Let me jog your memory, if we do remember the last time I7 was in Operation, countless unemployed CPL holders were fleeced out of their 25L by scum of the earth bean counters at MD Thiagarajan's baby.
Back then, 25 L was a huge sum (Remember the age of a pre-first gig Type Rating being a norm hadn't yet kicked into the industry)

So by all means, if you feel the fraternity of CPL holders hasn't seen enough already, kindly do the needful- Sound the horn for Thiagarajan. Publicize his "I-have-1650Crs-" airline. :mad:

[cyrilroy21]

PEC

I think you seem to have misunderstood my statement or taken it in the wrong context .

You Initially mentioned this

StartUps - Name them please. Paramount? Dream on - Surprised if they ever take off AGAIN

And I countered it by saying that they might come back in action seeing how they received lots of money

I never said that they will back for sure

All I meant was its too early to say that they won't come back in light of the new developments taking place .


I am very well aware about Paramount's past dealings and how they disappeared with the money for type ratings as well as non payment of salaries to both Indian and foreign pilots .

And I seriously wish that those who were cheated of their money will get it back soon .

Just because I because I mention them on pprune or start a new thread with a news article about them does not mean that I am trying to advertise on their behalf .


And to everyone else.........

Please dont go out there and do a type rating just because Paramount or some start up airline orders a particular aircraft .
As PEC mentioned they did disappear with a lot money from CPL holders which they took in the guise of a type rating .

If I remember correctly even after paying 25 lakhs for the type rating they would make you sign a contract with only 15000 rupees as a monthly salary :eek:
If rumours are to be believed some even paid an extra 15 lakh to some Vice president or senior HR in the company to recruit them .
They shut down in the end and disappeared with the money.
I believe that those who lost money had filed cases against the company

You have been warned........

[hawaijahaj]

737 and A320 ........If both are evils....my point is which evil is less evil in the current scenario?

:sad::sad:

[PEC]

737 and A320 ........If both are evils....my point is which evil is less evil in the current scenario?
None, you are better off without a rating. As someone I know dearly is experiencing right now, the pain of sitting at home with a rating, is far more tremendous, than sitting at home without one.

A320, B737NG, B737CL, ATR, DHC8Q400, ....Whatever be it, you might as well draw the cash, get it home and flush it down the crapper. Thats exactly what you will end up doing if you buy a rating in this scenario.

And for those who'd obviously raise "Then-how-do-i-get-a-job?" question, "Wait" I know you are at the edge already and if someone nudges you around, you might just fall off the cliff. But fortune favors the patient. There will come a time, there will come a day. And when your shot is up, take it with all you've got.

@ Cyril, Finally, we can co-exist.

[fatbus]

A TR and no flying time to back it up will NOT get you a job, DON'T pay for a TR it's a waste of money.

[bhambri]

Sir kindly don't give false hope to someone who is in hopeless position since long time as maintaining rating is expensive option.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gifI am giving false hopes. I am motivating some to take a decision which many pilots sitting at home are not able to do because of so many negative so guys around.

At Indigo there are 120+ airbus rated pilots warming bench since 2011 july from various recruitment drive plus april 2012 cae assessment cpl holders in wait for next stage and you believe that they will hire in 6-8 months .....:ugh:I am one of the long list guys waiting to join indigo so I am aware of the numbers well. wont disclose it here but its way to less.

Indigo / Go / AI /Spice - All are bringing planes but most are as replacements not capacity addition. I dont know about other but see Indigo's history and well you will come to know. This year they plan to bring in 16 and I know they just got approval of 5 aircrafts
Aircraft Acquisition Committee (AAC) meeting today 11 Feb at MOCA.

We can wait for the rest approvals to come.

[Johny Boy]

I am giving false hopes. I am motivating some to take a decision which many pilots sitting at home are not able to do because of so many negative so guys around.

You are not motivating anyone, you are just providing a rope to self inflicting financial advice to someone who is already in dire state of mind to not think wisely.
How can a person be motivated by spending 25K-30K $ on rating which will sit on his CPL for a year then demand 4k$ renewal procedure is beyond my thinking considering current market saturation.It's same for 737 too.

I am one of the long list guys waiting to join indigo so I am aware of the numbers well. wont disclose it here but its way to less.
So is my close person who is sitting since July 2011 with rating.

Since you quoted this
I dont know about other but see Indigo's history and well you will come to know. This year they plan to bring in 16 and I know they just got approval of 5 aircrafts
Aircraft Acquisition Committee (AAC) meeting today 11 Feb at MOCA.

We can wait for the rest approvals to come.
Let me tell you how Indigo works :
You order 100 planes and replace old ones with new saving you on D checks on older planes.With large orders you get free 1/2 Simulators or rating on that type or both....market observation is that you get free 2 set of ratings/plane from plane manufacturer.So CAE comes in with their sims and trains Indigo pilots where CAE gets fee's from candidates and large chunk goes to Indigo as they are providing CAE business. But Indigo get free rated pilot so cost saved on training.Saving Indigo money and earning them money.

When you get new planes you sell older planes to leasing company and lease back few to maintain capacity in market.You add 5 planes to new routes but discard 3 old planes out of service and hence only 2 planes added in fleet or capacity.Saving Indigo money.

When 70% order is obtained , place another order which will generate mass discount from plane manufacturer and then whole cycle revolves.Saving Indigo money.

I would relish if Indigo or all other operators add planes and increase pilot intakes at various experience levels.
But I don't think Indigo would stop generating money from pilot training of fresh cpl holders by taking only rated pilots.You should understand all airlines that calling rated pilots for examinations is for urgent/immediate requirements.

[Johny Boy]

737 and A320 ........If both are evils....my point is which evil is less evil in the current scenario?
What you prefer - Hand on one stick or pulling with two sticks ?:}:}

Save money and investment it which will at least give you monthly returns.I say spend all money on fix deposits @12 % and sit back enjoy your free time at home reading books and laugh in future seeing all people who went for rating submitting their rear at DGCA office for yearly NOC's...

If you or daddy got money to waste...adopt me ! :E

[cyrilroy21]

Adding to what Johny Boy has to say above regarding IndiGo

While IndiGo does have a large number of aircraft on order and a brilliant business plan , dont forget that in the coming a years a significant number of aircraft will be sent back to the lease holders when the aircraft reaches the D Check stage .

To put that into perspective Out of the Original 100 Aircraft order from Airbus 76 Aircraft have been delivered........Only 63 are active in the fleet
IndiGo has indicated that they plan to raise increase the fleet count to 71 aircraft by the end of 2013

An IndiGo LOI holder due to join in the coming months told me that they have 900 Pilots ( Captains + FO )including the LOI holders waiting to join .
Assuming no attrition among the pilot ranks.......Thats more than enough Pilots for atleast 90 aircraft .

[bhambri]

First of all I end this discussion over here that was my advice for the guy who started this thread.

So is my close person who is sitting since July 2011 with rating.

yeah i am type rated

How can a person be motivated by spending 25K-30K $ on rating which will sit on his CPL for a year then demand 4k$ renewal procedure is beyond my thinking considering current market saturation.It's same for 737 too.its not 2lacs every year. within 2 years its 2lacs quoted for renewal by Fstc ggn.

You should understand all airlines that calling rated pilots for examinations is for urgent/immediate requirements. I got selected with indigo after doing my type rating I am not one of the ab-initio cae rated pilot. Indigo is paying for our rating renewal as well.

I would relish if Indigo or all other operators add planes and increase pilot intakes at various experience levels.IndiGo's capacity expansion third highest among all airlines in 2012, says CAPA

they are adding as many as aircrafts they think they can use. I do agree they lease back but then also adding 13 aircrafts in a year is commendable. and in 2013 they are planning to add 10 aircrafts and that is addition not in all.

[Johny Boy]

Bhambri just one question , are you trying to get a type rated partner to have company along side by being grounded ? :E:E

Common man you are sitting since July 2011 ( or may be later )with rating and mind it that time zero hour rated pilots glut was lot less then whats now be it any type and still giving advice( motivating was your word ) for rating....:ugh::ugh:So Indigo will renew your license but that's for Indigo grounded pilots not for every 320 pilot.

Those who have money to waste will always try to pull a donkey out of hat and get rating despite being warned, then cramp already small market of aviation in India.
Those who are wise will wait and ponder next avenue for light.

Good luck for your Indigo journey !

[clearblueskyy]

So between the airbus and the Boeing (320vs 737) which one is the better aircraft to fly ?

AND WHY ?

[hawaijahaj]

So far this post is neutral.....no inclination towards either aircraft.

[PCLCREW]

I have 6000+ hours ATP CRJ and A320 Types 4500 jet I have applied all over Asia... I don't have any time in the A320 and about 4000 in the CRJ.
Having the A320 type with no time in the aircaft is worthless right now. Having this TR has resulted me a net of zero calls back... Now I'm an expat and I know it's much easier for locals, but I wouldn't waste the money right now I wish I hadn't.
I would list the companies I've applied to but the list is so long it would be embarrassing.

[manoj john]

thnks for that highlights, it was hiralious at the same time informational

[cgwhitemonk11]

Autopilot on at 100ft, you won't 'fly' either one!

[clearblueskyy]

people tell me the airbus is technologically more advanced than the boeing.

[cyrilroy21]

Those looking to get a type rating and those that have type rating need to read this CAR very carefully.....

http://dgca.nic.in/cars/D8F-F1.pdf

[Johny Boy]

e. More than 36 Months

i. Full Type Rating
ii. 01 Initial Release Route Check by Examiner
iii. 08 Sectors SLF with Check Pilot / Instructor / Examiner
iv. Final Release Route Check by Examiner.



What...:ugh::ugh: is it revision of previous CAR or new rules drafted to stop unemployment for rated pilots ?
3 Years without job on type and redo again full TR.:eek::eek:

[clearblueskyy]

Lol . Type rating OFF my mind !:D:D

[clearblueskyy]

Just in --

SpiceJet Weighs Switch to Airbus From Boeing on Technology - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-18/spicejet-weighs-switch-to-airbus-from-boeing-on-technology-cost.html)



This should change preferences. :confused::confused: