ANZ SO Recruitment

[WhyByFlier]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could offer some info on:

- Average pay for an SO including all allowances and sector pay.
- Average/Expected time as an SO at ANZ?
- Expected time to command at ANZ?
- Has ANZ made pilots redundant in the past/ is it likely in the future?
- With 3000+ hours on a 737/320 and a command at my current airline in a couple of years would you recommend the move from a career point of view? Lifestyle wise it'll be an improvement. Money wise it'll be a big downgrade. Just from a career point of view as seen from someone on the inside. I don't like to assume if I can help it!
- Any chance to go SO on the 737/320 and operate given my ratings? if not is pretty much definitely 777 or are 747 and 767 a possibility?
- Typical roster for an SO?

I've googled these things, used PPJN for the salary but would appreciate more definite answers if anyone has them.

As an airline I like the product, the staff seem very professional and like good people and the country is fantastic. Many plus points to joining but the pay, slow progression and job security are fears but unknowns to me!

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to help.

[empacher48]

I don't know much about the pay, but can tell you a few things.

The time you can expect to be an S/O is anywhere from 7 to 15 years. Time to command can be 20+ years. The job is very stable, I can't think of the last time they made redundancies. The company is very well positioned to the future with a nimble management team, good alliances and a modern fleet mix.

They have made it known the majority of new hires they want to take on will come from the Air New Zealand Link companies, with very few from outside those. In fact I know of someone with 3000 hours on A320s, who was told to go join Mt Cook or Air Nelson for three or four years before he'd be given an interview.

There is a slim chance of getting on the 737, but may only be two or four positions at the most. You will not get direct entry to the A320, ever. Expect to be with the company about 10 years before you get the chance on the A320.

Yes people won't be happy with how they recruit, but at the end of the day it is their train set and they can pretty much dictate how people get to use it.

[WhyByFlier]

Thanks for the response. What is the function of an SO in ANZ? Radios, filing in the flight plan and filling a seat in the cruise? Any take offs and landings at all? Or just in the sim?

Any answers to my other questions anyone?

Cheers.

[waterbottle]

Whybyflier,

Salary hopefully wont be mentioned on here, but it is pretty good. Taxable allowances add to the mix such that you'll make more than at any other operator in NZ. Non taxable allowances are irrelevant as they are all spent overseas. We dont have sector pay, but do have incentive pay. Anything over 60 hours for long haul means a percentage increase. Overall the money is very good, I certainly lead a good lifestyle.

Longest Ive heard someone spending as an SO voluntarily is around 8 years. Those who have spent longer have invariably been commuters who don't wont to move to Auckland. Time to an A320 job as it stands today will be in the 3-4 year range. Of course who knows how things will speed up or slow down.

Historically command on a widebody has taken around 20 years. Some guys have picked up 737 commands within 5 years. Personally I would guess at having an A320 command at around the 15 year mark. Typically progression from there is quite quick.

Redundancies were most recently made around the early 90's. It was a time of major restructuring and hopefully wont happen again.

At the moment a surprising number of guys are being sent to the 737 as an FO (equivalent in rank and pay to SO), as well as to the 747 and 767 as SOs. A320 is a significant jump in salary, you'll have to wait your turn for that one.

SO rosters vary markedly. 747 might involve 1-2 SFO returns in a 28 day roster. 767 would do a little bit more, the 777 the most. Typically 777 SOs are at around 70-80 hours a roster. That would mean around 16-18 days physically in NZ.

Air NZ simply wont be able to hire all they need from the Link carriers. Up to half the guys on intakes at the moment have come from outside the group.

Lifestyle is excellent.

Hope that helps.

[DeltaT]

No touching of the controls below 10000ft
No Flight Plan work, its all done by the Flight Planning Dept.
Pretty much the relief pilot...yawn.
Its only been in the past few years that the SO actually gets a full type rating, they used to with-hold the final sign off.
So yup, lifestyle job if it suits you.

Pay information is in a couple of places on the internet if you search hard enough.

[WhyByFlier]

I've seen the pay on ppjn and I'd guess it's pretty accurate or within a couple of RPI increases.

At least it's a full TR. Do many get fed up and go elsewhere? As an SO are you involved and engaged in the operation or treated like a dogsbody?

NZ60 Erronious ILS Incident, Apia - YouTube

The chap in that is a called a second first officer - is it his role!

Is it almost certain to get 777 SO given the fleet sizes if successful in selection? Are the 767 routes to the pacific islands all turnarounds or night stops?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to have a good idea of the operation and manage my own expectations.

Thanks again for the responses.

[lotsofplanes]

Two very different opinions there On whether guys from outside the three regionals have a shot. I'm also looking at so jet. Just wondering when they will call up guys from outside the three for interviews.

[WhyByFlier]

I am from outside 'the three' - hence the the types I have flown and I was called around a couple of months ago.

[waterbottle]

lotsofplanes - Im seeing a number of people turning up on rosters or getting starts that havent come directly from the Links. As I said previously with the number of people they want to hire this year and next they simply cant recruit solely from the Links.

You're not allowed in the seat from essentially pushback until 20k. Apart from that you're a full part of the crew. You will be given legs where you run the planning etc.

There has been a bit of surprise at the number of guys being sent to the 747 and 737. Maybe that is just a blip. Would expect most new hires to go 777.

The odd guy leaves, but very few.

When I compare to other jobs out there I think it is pretty good. Money wise the whole package is good, and the time off is excellent.

[DeltaT]

How does a cruise relief SO log the time?
What sort of planning is the SO doing? And said 'leg' is still cruise relief, presume you mean 20,000ft to 20,000ft?
Has 10,000ft reference been removed from the manuals ?

[Metro man]

How old are you ? Early 20s = go for it, mid 40s = think very hard.

How is your present job ? Company/Location/Lifestyle

A 25 year old with a young family working for a crap low cost in the Middle East or Europe with an unhappy wife and poor job security would be mad not to take ANZ.

A 45 year old with a nice job in a good location would have to consider very carefully.

I assume you are somewhere in the middle.;)

[waterbottle]

DeltaT - Time is logged as copilot. When the SO runs the leg he/she will do so in the same manner as when the Captain or the FO runs their leg. There is very little planning to do.

You can call the SO role whatever you like. You're not looked down on or treated differently. The only difference is that after setting up the flight deck on your leg you jump out of the seat prior to pushback and then jump back in at 20k.

[DeltaT]

Is the FO logging time from pushback or from the time they are in one of the front seats?

[waterbottle]

Every pilot logs the time from off blocks to on blocks. Its not like some airlines where you only log the time you are physically in one of the front seats.

[Captain Fun]

DeltaT How does a cruise relief SO log the time?

Why is how one log's time even relevant to a job like this?

[WhyByFlier]

No question is a stupid question!

[Yousef Breckenheimer]

Hey waterbottle that time to a 320 job that would be based out of Auckland?

[waterbottle]

320 is based out of AKL/WLG/CHC so a slot could come up at any one.

[DeltaT]

Every pilot logs the time from off blocks to on blocks. Its not like some airlines where you only log the time you are physically in one of the front seats.

If I am rated on a particular aircraft, and then sit on the jumpseat for the flight, and thereby become part of the crew, I can log that flight?

[blah blah blah]

Sitting on the seat doesn't make you part of a crew. You have to be assigned to that duty and operating within crew duty limits etc. It takes 3-4 pilots to fly longhaul. Being in the third or fourth seat doesn't make you less of a part of the crew.

[waren9]

Um, you wanna log time whilst on staff travel?

[Offcut]

Who cares about the logbook time? It may surprise those of you still searching for the particular job you want, but once you get there the logbook is simply a chore to be done before your check. All pilots assigned to a flight are required by law to log all the time for flight and duty limit compliance. How that time (second officer) may be viewed by a subsequent employer is a different matter. If you need some jet time to head off to the desert then I'd do a bit of research first. Second Officers have received full type ratings for as long as I can remember and are checked to the same standard as all other ranks. In addition, they do a "handling" sim between each check to sharpen up on low level (below FL200) procedures. It's been a slow 5-6 years but barring some global catastrophe then now is a great time to be joining.

[DeltaT]

Yes SO have received full type rating courses.
As I have said, they did not get a final sign off to be -issued- a full type rating. Maybe it had some limitation on it such as P2 only, the whole point was to keep the salary down, and maybe going to another company.
This has since changed.

[Offcut]

DeltaT, if that was the case it was some years ago. Certainly for the last eight years, and I suspect quite a bit longer than that, SO's have received a full type rating with sign off and annotated on their licence by CAA. All crew in NZ require a type rating and there is no provision for P1/P2 type ratings under NZ law. All ratings are pilot in command ratings.

The reason SO salary is lower than an equivalent First Officer is that it is a lower rank, with different duties. It is the entry level to the company and is the same salary as a 737 FO.

[DeltaT]

Last I heard was around 2006.
Kinda drifting the thread...

[VSsenior]

Morning all

Wondered if anyone could give some info into working for Air New Zealand, spoke with a member of their company recently and he said that they would be recruiting again within the current months.

More than likely starting on the domestic and Tasman routes, are most of these routes turnarounds or are some of the flights to east-coast Australia night stops as well? What are the roster like on this narrow bodies? Are they set roster I.e 4 on 3 off etc?

I gather it could be many years waiting to get onto the 777 for long haul rotations but what are these like? I know ANZ f/c go all the way thru to heathrow and back, is it 24 hrs in LA and 48 in LHR? Or is it different? What are the rosters like on the 777?

Anyinformation would be appreciated folks :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

You'll start with the link carriers and spend the best part of 5 years in a light turboprop.

You might get a look in at this point for a backseat in the long haul operation.

Maybe 5-10 years again if you're lucky before you see the right seat of a narrow body, another few years before you see the right seat of a wide body and then another that again before a narrow body command.

You'll need to start young or you'll never see the left seat.....

[shallow gene pool]

It really depends on the experience that you would be bringing to Air NZ as to where you will be placed. Piston time and instructing will most likely put you in the Link carriers as Mr Goblin stated, turboprop and jet time will give you a good shot at Air NZ. If you started at Air NZ you will most likely head to the B777 as an S/O. My guess is you shouldn't spend more than 4-5 years max as a S/O before a move to A320 F/O (as long as you are happy to live in AKL and not wait for outbases ie WLG/CHC).
B777 roster is good with an increasing amount of 4 pilot flying. Current destinations (for S/O's) are Japan, LA, San Fran, Vancouver, Hong Kong, London and Shanghai. There are also the odd day trips to Oz and Rarotonga. London trips are 10 days away on a 1,2,3 pattern (days off at each destination) or 2,2,2 depending on the season.
It's a good time to start at Air NZ. A couple of days ago our chief pilot was overheard grumping about having to find 80 pilots this year . Our training schools are going to be bursting at the seams.
Time to a 'Bus job will come down as more A320's replace the B737. This will see a much faster transition for S/O's to a flying seat. We have the 787 arriving (hopefully!) mid next year which will create a training bubble, as well as 2 more B777s coming. Also, there is a very large number of our pilots over 60 and retirements appear to be starting to happen. Good luck!
SGP

[Flyboat North]

Do Australians have to first convert from a CASA licence to a NZ licence prior to lodging an application ?

Or can this be done once an offer is made ?

[Nose wheel first]

Flyboat, I'm 99.9% sure you can apply with only a CASA license and IF you get the job you can convert.

Under the TTMRA a CASA license is as good as an NZ one and vs versa. Its a matter of filling out forms, paying some of your hard earned cash to the relevant authority and then sitting around waiting for the wheels of bureaucracy to slowly turn.

[Yousef Breckenheimer]

Hi,

anybody know how many interview boards there are still to come this year?

YB

[Yousef Breckenheimer]

Good o. Cheers

[waterbottle]

Looking at TWO interview rounds a month. And approximately 140 new hires in 2014 alone.

[sum1]

Surely with all the hiring going on, there is reasonably quick movement compared to the past?

[thehenge]

Hi
Following on from what is said above
I'm currently an A320 FO for a LoCo in Europe so no work life balance
I have just over 1200 on type and a JAA ATPL
Looking at getting back to NZ
I'm 31 am looking at 7 yrs roughly to command for my current operator and maybe 15 to 20 yrs if I join a Europe legacy similar I believe to ANZ.
With my age I was wondering if it would still be a possibility to get into ANZ
Would I ever see command there?
As I won't be eligible to apply till next yr with the the hours limit
Any advice on this
Cheers

[DeltaT]

mmm interesting, 140 new hires in 2014, and now 2 yrs from SO to A320.
Any memos or references to back this up please?
The last forecast of 25-40 new jet pilots per annum is in the Internal Memo on 19 July 2012.

I know the bidding system is a bit complex, but at a basic level this means all the SO in the Fleet ahead of you in seniority will move on to FO in the space of 2yrs??!!
Anyone got a figure on just how many SO pilots that is?

On order are:
2 x 777 replacing 2 x 747 (0)
10 x A320 replacing 12 x B737 (-2)(in terms of crew plane type change)
10 x B787 replacing 5 x B767 (+5, over 4yrs)

An overall increase of +3 aircraft, but +5 longhaul that have SO.
(correct me if I am wrong!)
I know there are pilots needed while others are out getting upgrade training etc, but do you really get 140 pilots required from those changes, and in 1yr?!! or is it really about building up a holding pool for 12months+ ?

[notaplanegeek]

140 ]:rolleyes: no way. So I guess direct entry FO/ Captain on long haul is totally out of the question?

[minimum_wage]

Having seen the internal email from the chief pilot with numbers of upgrades and new hires required in 2014 and first half of 2015, they need these pilots. Also remember 50% of pilots are 50yrs plus so joining now will be a different story to what it was years ago.

[minimum_wage]

Watch this space... It may come to it in a few years IF the unions agree.

[DeltaT]

Ahh yes the Retiring Pilots chestnut

Ageing Air NZ pilots 'refuse to retire' (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4882356/Ageing-Air-NZ-pilots-refuse-to-retire)

"An Air New Zealand pilot who did not wish to be named said the company had about 850 pilots, with more than 100 of these aged over 60 and about three over 70" -2011

[mista niceguy]

It is talked about on here that time from an S/O to F/O on the 320 can be as little as 2 years. How about from S/O to F/O on the 777? Is that a similar prospect or is the long haul job seen as being the most preferred option?
With a lot of hiring going on now, there must be a point where the new joining people are effectively the last of a big bunch and will stay as an S/O a lot longer than those that get in at the start of the rush.

Cheers,

[mista niceguy]

Interesting reading this thread in relation to AirNZ, supposedly a shortage.....


http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/519204-stop-pilot-skills-going-shortage-list-your-help-required.html

[sum1]

It is talked about on here that time from an S/O to F/O on the 320 can be as little as 2 years. How about from S/O to F/O on the 777? Is that a similar prospect or is the long haul job seen as being the most preferred option? With a lot of hiring going on now, there must be a point where the new joining people are effectively the last of a big bunch and will stay as an S/O a lot longer than those that get in at the start of the rush.

I would be interested also. Anybody have any idea on roughly how long to an FO position on a widebody with this projected movement coming up?

[flightless_bird]

Can anyone tell me anything about Air NZ staff travel and also rostering.

Things I was wondering about include:
- How many free or discounted trips do you get a year?
- How often do you get denied boarding if you have a staff travel ticket?
- If you are in uniform can you use the jumpseat in the flight deck (or elsewhere)?

With regards to rostering:
- How would the rostering and bidding system work as a SO?
- How do you bid for trips and/or dates that you want to work (or not work)?

Thanks in advance!

[sum1]

Can anybody help answering these questions please?

[Sqwark2000]

Things I was wondering about include:
- How many free or discounted trips do you get a year?
unlimited standby domestic trips after 6mths service. The country is divided into zones, i.e AKL-CHC is a zone 3 fare, WLG-CHC is a zone 2 etc. Pay the zone fare for one way or double it for return. Unlimited discounted domestic firm fares, 50% off any published fare from the public website. Same deal for international after 12mths service except its 25% for the firm fares. The international zone fares are obviously higher than the domestic zones

- How often do you get denied boarding if you have a staff travel ticket?
depends if you do your homework and plan ahead and pick a flight with reasonable seats avail. If you get denied boarding its a simple matter of transferring your booking onto the next avail.

- If you are in uniform can you use the jumpseat in the flight deck (or elsewhere)? You shouldn't really be in uniform using staff travel but if you finish work and want to jump on the next flight to wherever its a matter of dressing down to de-identify yourself. There's a reluctance by crews to take staff on duty travel on the flight deck, but usually pretty good if you're on leisure travel. You need to have your ID with you to request a jump seat

With regards to rostering:
- How would the rostering and bidding system work as a SO?
- How do you bid for trips and/or dates that you want to work (or not work)?

Im not with the international airline, but the Link group uses the same Bidding system, so it'll be fairly similar. The basics of it is that you can bid for specific duties or days off; or generic patterns of duty e.g 2 or 3 overnight duties to a particular destination per roster. You add a weighting the bid out of 100, if the bid is very important to you might put all 100pts on that duty or day off or if its a nice to have duty but not a must you might only put 50pts on it. If the bid /duty is popular then the bidder with the highest points gets it. You can make as many bids as you like but the number of bids are averaged out to add up to 100pts total. If you make 6 bids then they may only average out to be about 17pts each, not giving a great opportunity for success. There's zero guarantee you'll get any bid, even if its your only bid with 100pts on it. The only other difference I may have heard about the international bidding is that seniority gives some preference to successful bids i.e A senior Capt will probably get the choice duties over a junior skipper. This is not in any way a confirmed but a best guess based on how the Links have been "aligned" with Mainline practices

[deadcut]

Regarding travel in the jump seat:

When I worked in ground handling for Air NZ and went on a trip to Aus I asked when boarding if I could travel in the jump seat. No problem both ways on the 777. With my company ID of course.

[kiwiabroad]

Has anyone got an idea on what time frame from applying to hearing back from HR to interviews etc. for new applicants?

Thanks in advance

[DC323]

Hi All,

Recently I have been invited by Air New Zealand to attend an interview at short notice. While I am very excited about the prospect of working for them, I am a little concerned about preparation.

I am hoping that someone out there has the .pdf that was floating around a few years ago with the interview profile (mainly technical quiz, etc) and would be generous enough to share it with me (via PM). I can certainly offer beers to those in AKL in return!

Any information would be greatly appreciated :ok:

Also to note to fellow Ppruners - please don't comment on why I should not join Air New Zealand, how bad it may be or how long I have to wait for progression. I am very aware of this, but I have a young family to support, done my homework and want to settle down. Contract jobs are not for me anymore. :ugh:

Thanks

DC3

[waren9]

mate if you can fly raw data, have a reasonable working knowledge of the aip, a level head and know a bit about the type you fly you'll be fine.

good luck with it.

[apilot-]

Much appreciated if someone can provide some details of interviews - questions/ recommended study for exam.
AIP - from someone who hasn't flown in NZ since 1999 - is it practical questions eg on approach chart interpretation - or some required air law knowledge?
Spending a bit on the ticket, and can't take family or spend more than a few more days due leave structures, so really hoping to give it my best shot.