Chinese ATC now and future

[Racine1026]

I am trying to learn more about Chinese ATC and ATM. I would like to know about experiences from people who have flown there, as well as any information on air routes, and procedures. Any shared knowledge is appreciated.

[Superpilot]

Hi Racine, from my little experience here so far...


Altitudes given in metres (obviously) but depending on your airlines procedures this can be quite cumbersome as the exact altitudes they give cannot be selected on the FCU of the A320/737 so one may need to refer to customised charts.
Most useful airspace is military or restricted
There are only 2 North/South airways in the Eastern part of China that traffic flying up and down China can use. However only one of them is used most of the time. It is extremely busy too.
Expect to fly non standard levels, levels up to 10,000ft below your optimum and early descents frequently.
Expect to fly offset routes (often just 1 mile R) most of the time for no apparent reason
Constant chatter in Chinese that will cause your ears much annoyance and the added loss of situational awareness that occurs when "they" are not speaking the international language of Aviation.
Most Approach controllers have a little to no appreciation of flow management, often completely forgetting you, asking you to slow down to slat/flap speeds 50 miles out only to then give you "resume normal speed" requests at 30 or requesting silly "make one left orbit" requests.
At the not so busy airfields expect to be handed over to tower frequencies early where a school kid will have a go at completely screwing up your approach.
Expect to be taken off the LOC to create "space" because the Approach Controller didn't release 3 aircraft were coming into his airfield at 50 miles out but realised it only at 15 miles.
Expect to not fly any published SID, instead expect a heading, different stop altitude and speed at exactly the point where flap retraction is supposed to be occuring.


All in all, it's an experience and hats off to those guys that can tolerate it!

[UpperATC]

Uppppsss.... I think, I can see PPRuNe on the blacklist of the mighty censorship apparatus. :cool:

[Racine1026]

Hey Superpilot.

I appreciate your insight. About how often do you fly into china? Also This sounds about as chaotic as I have expected. If it is not to much to ask what kind of plane were you flying and from where was your standard route (For example the UK to shanghai?)

[GlueBall]

Expect to fly offset routes (often just 1 mile R) most of the time for no apparent reason

I don't mind flying OFFSET in busy Chinese airspace, especially when I don't know what's said in Chinese to many other flights in my space. If someone has an impromptu altitude bust on your airway, it would be less dramatic with a 2 mile lateral separation, than when flying centerline. :ooh:

[Jester Wester]

Just about to depart for 10 weeks teaching Chinese ATCOs a European style ATC training course at CAUC. Send me a PM and I should be able to share some info!
In the meantime, yes as Superpilot said most of the airspace is military and the problem is the Civilian ATCOs are not supposed to vector aircraft off the "prescribed routes" or outside the "prescribed areas".
Flight levels in Meters are still used and this is unlikely to change due to the number of military aircraft that are equipped only to use meters

[Sheep Guts]

They need to deregulate the military and regional government stranglehold on their airspace.
Limited airways you can only offset so much traffic to maximize these singular airways.

Regarding their vectoring or lack of deviation off airways for wx etc. due restrictions. I believe this comes from the PRC AIP which states in Chinese script and literal translation the tracking that shall be done in 1 certain way between say for eg ZBAA and VHHH. It's states hard and fast which departure and airways and gives no latitude for deviation.

They can build as many new airports or buy as many aircraft as they want. The bottle neck now is the airways.
Imagine a populous of 60 million people in the Hong Kong, Guangzhou, Shenzhen region travel to another 40-50 million populous Beijing, Tianjin region with only one airway?

Just recently in the last week there have been forecast huge TSRA Thunderstorms and rain at Beijing Airport. Even when the wx had not arrived at the airport. The ATCs solution was to close the airport as safety blanket obviously a directive from a higher office.
This caused huge delays up to 100 aircraft waiting for departure on 1 evening.
The ATC response on repeated question of how long the delay or number in departure is replied with the standard Chinese /English phraseology of " Delay Undetermined". This frustrates the pilots on international carriers and entices the local pilots to catch some sleep and not really care.


Many flights were cancelled. Yet the airport authority cannot deal with it. In some cases refusing to connect air bridges. Further causing delays. They inherently afraid of dealing with PRC passengers who the obligatory "Sit ins" until they get their way compensation etc. it's a total mess.
Where in most countries if people refuse to leave the aircraft the airport police are called to deal with and remove trouble makers. In China this doesn't happen the Police see this as airline matter and a basic right of the customer. They stand off and don't interfere.

Another dangerous practice at Chinese airports is the requirement for the gate operators to close off close doors remove the bridge before a ATC clearance in given. So if there is a delay, which on average is all the time. You are stranded with no air bridge and allot of the time no ground-crew to talk to. If a medical emergency on board were to happen it could turn catastrophic.

Lastly if they deregulate their airspace a general aviation industry which is non existent could flourish.

[Sheep Guts]

There is no way that China has more military installations than the USA. But for some reason they do have more restricted airspace than any other country. This as I said in my last post has strangled the civilian airways making it near impossible in peak times to get anywhere.
Billions if not 100s of billions of dollars of fuel are wasted by their own civilian transport fleets ( Air China, China Southern, China Eastern, Hainan Airlines and many Chinese a subsidiary carriers) each year on early descents, late climbs, holding, vectoring for delay, or even holding on taxiways for undetermined lengths of time. Most operators insist their pilots take an additional 30/ 60 minutes sometime more on each in and out of China on top of normal reserves. Not to mention International Carriers as well, are exposed to the ridiculous delay and restrictions.
If they could only deregulate the airspace and put more airways between their biggest destinations. More leeway would exist for diversion for weather and traffic capacity would multiply 4 fold. Fuel saving would be staggering. In fact I would bet the fuel savings per annum saved, would run their military hardware.

Does anyone have any views on this?
Alas I don't think President Xi. reads this forum :(

[Vercingetorix]

President Xi may not read this forum but some chinese ATCOs do and full respect to them. Their airspace problems are similar to those encountered in Europe not so long ago with underused military training areas taking out large blocks of airspace., I.e. North Wales in the UK and others too delicate to mention in central Europe.

Cheers

[pilotss2001]

I feel sorry for the controllers in China. Their hands are tied by the restrictions placed on them. Confined airspace and an ever growing amount of traffic to funnel through small air corridors with little vectoring allowed. Eventually it will break down and give way.

A few years ago there was at least an hour delay or more with every flight. The system got overworked and new rules opened with more airspace available and departure/arrival procedures were implemented. Many airports used to have the same inbound route as the outbound. The airspace simply was not allowed for civilian use. Delays were so bad that something had to give way from public and private discontent.

Its not the controllers that are the problem. They work well in their environment. It is the system that is broken.

[eddie shoestring]

Tardy Airlines May Be Clipped by State Organ
China Daily | Jul. 11, 2013


Flights that have been delayed for more than four hours and trigger protests from passengers will be canceled and those responsible for the lengthy delays -- which can include airlines and traffic controllers -- will be banned from flying for a season, according to the Civil Aviation Administration of China on Thursday as quoted by the Beijing-based The Mirror.

The administration will launch a special campaign in the latter half of the year aimed at reducing flight delays and it will give harsher punishments to those responsible for flight delays, it said.

The administration will warn domestic airlines whose rates of punctuality are below 50 percent and rank among the last 20, it said.

Domestic flights completed 3.3 million hours of flights during the first half of the year without any incident, according to the administration.

[Sheep Guts]

Nice sentiment from a higher power. But I think they underestimate the layers of problems with the ATC System and Air Space design. Corruption the big elephant in the room is always avoided as a reason. People need to open their eyes.

You can't scare or whip and old horse to the finish line. You have to care for it and feed it and train it to be a winner.

If your stuck on the ground in Beijing with " delay undetermined " from Delivery or Ground for hours. Who compensates that? You can dump it all on the carrier.
You can't dump it all on the controller.

Airways design needs attention. A road link between two cities becomes congested when its a single lane highway. Lets start building large multi lane interstates in the sky's.Its overdue for change.The cost of redrafting Air charts surely isn't the problem. Please China redesign your airspace now!:ugh:

[Sheep Guts]

Now they are starting to talk. Its not a bad start

Safety fears as Chinese airports order planes to take off regardless | South China Morning Post (http://m.scmp.com/news/china/article/1293486/safety-fear-over-orders-take-regardless)

Beijing can launch as many Jets as it likes. But the single airway and restrictions imposed on departures at surrounding airports like Tianjin, Zhenzou etc will still occur. Also the fact the same airway A461 is also used for long haul European traffic, means the congestion is not confined to Chinese destinations. The inherent design of there system is at fault. Wether they like ot or not, it is now at braking point :sad:

[UpperATC]

And another, just for stats...

China airports world's worst for on-time performance - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/12/travel/china-airport-performance/index.html)