FlyBe axing jobs

[beerdrinker]

Embattled Flybe to axe 300 jobs in UK - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9820285/Embattled-Flybe-to-axe-300-jobs-in-UK.html)

[RJ100]

Head count is 88 Pilots and 44 Cabin Crew to lose jobs. Bases and dates not decided.

[Beaver man]

...oh yes RJ, don't let's bother to mention the underlings, almost 100 engineers. But there again, who needs engineers anyway eh?

[flieng]

As an ex engineer I agree with your sentiments. Loosing ones job can be devastating for anyone and some pilots only consider there own position as I guess as some engineers may?

[gorter]

Ouch. I honestly thought the majority of the 300 would be middle management/hr types that could easily
Move into another industry. Seemingly the vast majority will be front line staff. Bad times indeed.

[Capot]

Mike Rutter has been seen on TV saying, very earnestly but without much conviction, that management would share the pain equally. Ho, ho, ho.

Mind you, I would suggest that managers with no specific qualification, other than "experience" and perhaps a very common business qualification, will find it much more difficult to find a job than pilots and engineers who have a licensed skill to sell, so long as they are realistic about their value.

And that doesn't mean sell yourself dirt cheap! It simply means forget the line 'I got £xxxxxx with Flybe, so that's what I should get from any new job'.

Why do you think Flybe needs to shed staff? Because they cost too much.

If it's any consolation, Directors with share options are a lot poorer than they were some time ago. Not the breadline, of course, just not quite so wealthy.

[Facelookbovvered]

I think Flybe are hurting off the back of APD increases, you get clobbered twice on internal flights, its hardly staff costs that are causing the pain, they are not the best payers in the industry by a long way, just not enough bums on seats and the E jets are to big for many routes, even the Dash is too big on some routes these days. Sadly the cost that they can control is employee costs.

[eMACaRe]

What about those newer pilots at Flybe who were lured into the MPL scheme - might be well nigh impossible to move to another company.....

[judge11]

I'm really surprised to read that (according to figures quoted here) that 2/3rds of the redundancies are coming from crew and engineers.:{

I could have sworn that the original statement issued by flybe said that middle management and HR would bear the brunt. I'll have to re-read.

[FERetd]

eMACaRe Quote:- "What about those newer pilots at Flybe who were lured into the MPL scheme - might be well nigh impossible to move to another company....."

An interesting point. On the otherhand are the MPL "Wonders" the cheaper option and will it be the more long time (i.e. more expensive - and more experienced) pilots that lose their jobs? I guess that it depends upon the Ts & Cs of employment.

As for the MPL pilots having difficulty moving to another job, well, you get what you pay for. It is difficult enough getting a job with a"proper" licence.

Sad to see anybody lose their job, though.

[CaptainSAC]

I'm not surprised. I live 15mins away from Exeter Airport and travel to Nice and return about twice a month. Flybe used to fly direct to Nice, Return, on a Friday and on a Monday as well as many other days in the summer, it was great I could fly down on Monday and back on Friday, if on Business, then down on Friday and back on Monday for pleasure. It was always about 3/4 to full all the time, and cost about £200 a time, return, but they stopped it last year and you now have to fly via Paris so £560 return. I now drive to Bristol which is 1 hr 15mins away and use EasyJet, and even paying for all the extras etc etc and my fuel in the car it less than £200 return. APD is the same!! FlyBe have bad management and bad destination schedules, its all their own fault. WAKE UP.....!!!!

[2blackdogs]

So much for the " robust business model" which "positions the airline to take advantage of the up-turn" ! Not much use if the company folds in the meantime. They want to look at the pricing structure, because the longer people find money tight, the more it`s all about ticket price. Not making flying better is it?

[josh7]

I feel for the MPL guys who are currently in training. As they don't even have a valid license until they have completed their line check. Unbelievable.

[Binder]

Used to work with Rutter in a previous life flogging performance plastics...

Newcastle to CDG 14th March 2013 one way Flybe £467.

Leeds Bradford to CDG 14th March one way Jet 2 £36.50.

I realise NCL is a code share. But come on...you are either low cost or you are not!

Confused!

[MaxReheat]

Flybe has never been 'low cost' despite their marketing effort.:=

[Boing7117]

Manchester to CDG 14th March one way Flybe £60 (similar time to your jet2 flight)

Getting a bit closer for you binder?

We are living in a ridiculous world of expectation whereby the fare paying passenger on a modern day airliner thinks its acceptable to travel 500 miles in under 90 minutes for less than the cost of a tank of petrol / or a car MOT / or a weekly shop.


Oh, and the same trip of March 14 via the Eurostar will cost you £39. You'd just need to get yourself to St Pancras station first.

A little sense of perspective is necessary here chaps. Lets get real.

[Hotel Tango]

Flybe has never been 'low cost' despite their marketing effort.

My thoughts exactly. On a couple of routes I fly, I found that the competition offered equal or cheaper fares together with a superior product. Consequently I stopped using FlyBe.

[turbine100]

Any one training for a MPL or with one at Flybe and restricted, would know the risks of being tied to an airline, prior to starting the training. Those training will hopefully be able convert during training to finish with a frozen ATPL instead.

Sorry to hear the job losses :(

[mad_jock]

I doudt very much its the MPLs they will want rid of.

I suspect it will be the FO's at the top of the FO's pay scale.

I had heard that due lack of movement the whole flight crew pay budget was way way out due the the profile of experenced FO's they have with nearly no movement by the LHS either.

Might also find that they would have to pay off the rest of the training loan as well for the cadet intake if they made them redundant before the loan was repayed in full.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I wanted to fly SOU-NCL return back in mid December......for me and the Mrs including a small bag each, it was over £530!!!! How on earth could they expect to continue in this fashion. Ended up paying BA to fly us LHR-NCL-LHR for less than £280.

I'm not sure what Flybe has become.....to me it's a lost sheep charging the earth. I thought the point of the Dash 8 was to be able to save fuel and therefore offer pax a cheaper regional service. When major Jet competitors are coming in at half the price or less, something has gone majorly wrong at Flybe.

Very very sad. It's a company I'd dearly love to work for later down the line but, for now, I hope Mr French & Co can find their feet and sort out this bloody great mess.

Have a good weekend all

[ROSCO328]

As someone who works for the orange compition I would like to express my sadness to those who may loose their positions over the current situation at Flybe. We all wish to do well but not at the cost of others employment.

[Alloy]

Like ROSCO328, but from Spotty M, I'm saddened like many of my colleges to see what is happening at FlyBE and wish the best for those loosing their jobs. The people I've worked with who are ex FlyBE/JEA are a good bunch.

[hec7or]

Used to work with Rutter in a previous life flogging performance plastics...


didn't know you sold 787s!

[Uplinker]

...oh yes RJ, don't let's bother to mention the underlings, almost 100 engineers. But there again, who needs engineers anyway eh?

Beaver; I'm sure RJ can speak for themself, but perhaps they didn't know about any other trades losses apart from F/D? It doesn't mean they dismiss you, as you seem to think.

Deeply saddened to hear about the Flybe redundancies. Hope you all get through this, guys and gals.

[remoak]

Beaver Man

...oh yes RJ, don't let's bother to mention the underlings, almost 100 engineers. But there again, who needs engineers anyway eh?

And the name of this forum is... what?

Nobody is denigrating the cost to engineers and other folk too, but this is a pilot forum and it is only natural that most of us will be considering the implications for pilots.

And with regard to that massive chip on your shoulder, in my 7 years at flybe I never considered engineers to be "underlings". There were a few grumpy ones at BHX, but the majority were good guys and mates.

Here's hoping that flybe can recover. JF is a canny operator and has got the company out of very tight spots before - there were times in the late '90s/early 2000s that the company was hours away from shutting down. Give the man a chance. He is not the kind of man to lay staff off unless he absolutely has to.

[Burpbot]

"Give the man a chance"

His already said his off Into the sunset with his wedge! I really hope those left can pull something out of the bag, and keep a thoroughly decent bunch of guys and girls in jobs. Best wishes to all those who got the short straw, I hope other opportunities are forthcoming in the near future.

[Albert Hall]

This really is tragic for the many people being made redundant who had little or no capability to influence the situation. Even more tragic is that the UK division remains in the hands of a man whom, although broadly affable, is incapable of making decisions and establishing what needs to be done. It is no surprise that the rot really set in when the decent management team were shipped off to the Russian front to run the Finland operation. APD hasn't helped, but a set of poor management decisions and inaction in the UK operation is the underlying root cause of the problems.

[AtomKraft]

Didn't they put in a huge order for Embaer 175s recently?

I haven't seen much of these aircraft. Have they been delivered to Flybe- or is this another part of the same problem?

[Leg]

Atom, try and keep up & don't ask silly inane questions
when people's livelihoods are on the line.
However I shall spell it out for you as it may
help take my mind of destitute'ism* for a while...

The order for 175 jets was made some time ago,
deliveries commenced just over 1 yr ago, there
are plenty around, EDI, ABZ, INV all have
one apiece, Brum and Manc have even more,
so you have not been looking very hard...
The next 3 deliveries have been deferred.

Albert Hall, spot on my friend, can't agree with you
more, although I would not go as far as "broadly affable".
Before even 1 hard working Pilot/Engineer/Cabin Crew
loose their job that :mad: should be out on his ear
with NO golden handshake, a swift kick in the tailpipe
will suffice. Quite frankly it's scandalous he keeps his job.


* for the benefit of the proon spelling police, that was intentional
poor English, grammar and diction.... and that... :ugh:

[ETOPS]

Well I can tell you the effect of this announcement from first hand experience.

Mrs ETOPS called in on Friday and given her 90 days notice - this only just over a year since exactly the same thing at her previous airline.

Gutted doesn't even come close..............

[Rosterchangeagain]

That seems terribly quick. Is Mrs ETOPs flight deck?
Is there not a consultation period to undergo and what are BALPA doing to help?

[Journey Man]

ETOPS

Sorry to hear that. Fingers crossed she gets picked up quickly. Is she LHS/RHS? I gather the excess is on the left, but the push is to cut the last ones in?

From friends in the company it seems the training is very good and no doubt anyone moving on would be an asset to any airline. Good luck.

[hobnobanyone]

First of all, thank you very much to those who have offered their kinds words in light of the current situation.

From my part: as you can imagine it's horrible, and a lot of us are looking over our shoulders and wondering what we can actually do. The uncertainty is the particularly nasty part of this entire thing. Management are progressively going around bases - especially those bases who didn't hear that they were at risk from the staff newsletter - but actually from the press instead.

It's just a terribly sad situation whichever way you look at it. Even for those who do survive the cull of staff, the employer/employee relationship will be ruined and I suspect we'll see a vast number moving on. To where is the question - and with a useless Type Rating and nobody interested in Turboprop pilots, I can't really say...

My thoughts are with everyone involved in this at the moment.

[B Fraser]

I live equidistant from Exeter and Bristol airports so I have a choice of carriers to almost anywhere in Europe.

I recently tried to book a FlyBe business ticket from Exeter to Belfast to get me there at a decent time in the morning and return in the evening. Not a hope. The Orange squad at Bristol got the outbound flight however they only go to International which is a 30 quid taxi ride into town. I came back from City on Flymaybe via Manchester to Exeter and both flights were half empty. I had forgotten how cramped the Dash-8 is and could not fit a laptop bag in the overhead bin.

The return flight was two sectors but cost four times the price of the outbound flight. There was a modicum of comfort in that the taxi journey was 20 quid cheaper in Belfast. Their business model is seriously flawed and the market will show no mercy.

[Tu.114]

It may or may not be that their business model has proven unsound. But let us distinguish here: the guys (and gals) paying for this by losing their work are not the ones responsible for any business decision. The blame for the business model, schedules, pricing and the like goes straight to the company brass; responsibility for unbearable taxes and other millstones the company needs to carry around is the authorities. In contrast, none of the blame goes to those working on the line and keeping the aircraft moving.

Please accept my sympathy as well - it is not a nice situation to be thrown into, and I do hope that You will soon find new employment. I do assume that some aircraft will be sold - possibly following them and applying with the buying company would be an option?

[Tableview]

I have every sympathy for most of the people who work for this outfit, and who are the victims of bad management decisions, as indeed are the customers. I used to fly quite a lot with Flybe, thankfully recently have managed to avoid doing so. Nearly every experience was bad, due to either cancelled or delayed flights, bad service on board, and all that at high fares due to the monopoly position that Flybe has on many routes.

I hope there is a solution, failing which I can only see Flybe losing business and heading downhill.

[Beavis and Butthead]

No air crew have been given 90 days notice. A 90 day consultation process with the unions has commenced though. No one can second guess until we see the result of these consultations.

When an airline initiates the requirement for a 90 day consultation period, make no mistake, they fully intend on implementing redundancy. Little can sway them from this. I hope in this case something can. Having suffered 3 redundancies in 17 years I feel greatly for those at flybe affected. It really is a brutal industry.

B&B

[Albert Hall]

The best bet for the few unions involved is to make their participation in the turnround plan 100% dependent on a change of management in the UK division. If they do not, the turnround plan will become irrelevant as there will be no airline left to implement it.

[fade to grey]

Can we not turn this into a pssing contest from passengers about where they got a better flight from A to B cheaper ? F*ck off to the professional passengers rumour network...

Sorry to hear of the situation in FlyBe , my mate finally managed to get in after years trying last year ! Disaster !- I was laid off from Astraeus when they went bust and it's a hard market out there regardless of what TR/hours you have.

I'd suggest get straight on the phone to PARC about their constantly advertised, ANA wings requirement for Dash8 Capts.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

fade to grey....

Absolutely right. This shouldn't be a pissing contest between pax when people are about to face redundancy. My previous post regarding my own personal experience was purely meant as an example of where Flybe has gone wrong.

Sadly, this is the responsibility of the management but as per usual it's the poor folks on the line that will suffer the consequences of some misguided decision making at the top.

A mate of mine also got a job with them last year after years of waiting....sincere sympathies to all those affected. Hopefully this mess will be soon sorted out.

[silverknapper]

I'm not sure it is a p@£sing contest ftg.
Flybe are blaming all their woes on APD, from what I've read so far in this thread people are merely pointing out that the exorbitant fares Flybe charge on some routes mentioned should be well able to absorb the APD and still make money. I position frequently on them, and do raise my eyebrows at times when an hours flight is £180 each way. Perhaps the management should look in the mirror more closely.
I hope it's just a scare tactic and everyone is OK, though from Mrs ETOPS experience it may well be for real. All the best to everyone, as usual the staff who do a decent job day in day out are the easy management target.

[FAStoat]

Never trusted the little weasel, ever since he met me smiling at the steps,when I had just brought in one of the first Jets of our Company into to operate a service out of Leeds.JF was in charge of sales there,and welcomed me with open arms,to bring a faster service to Scotland and N Ireland.However we never got the seats filled,and a plot was uncovered where the Flights were assumed full by the Computer,when there were still plenty of seats,which had been effected by an Employee-apparently the one in charge!!.Our Competitor was Jersey European,which was a brother Airline as we trained their Pilots and I had always assumed a very friendly business cooperation.They did not operate a Jet then,but Jack Walker had a spy/saboteur in our ranks,who allowed the JEA F27s to pick up pax otherwise destined for our shiny new Jets.This said employee resigned before he should have been sacked,and surprise surprise went quickly to work for JEA in a more exulted position.JEA duly got their own Jets and our Excellent work environment Airline was first half sold shares to the Dutch,then taken over by them,and gone!!!!JEA became Flybe and said ratbag became its master.Say no more:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Albert Hall]

The redundancies are indeed real - I know of three people affected directly.

I'm talking about a different person to FASToat though - it's not JF that I was referring to.

The points being raised are very sensible though. If the prices, flight times and reliability are unattractive to customers, then it's part of the reason why the business is failing which will ultimately be to the detriment of all of those who work there.

[JliderPilot]

I count myself lucky I had my interview cancelled by FlyBe back in August (market forces they said), I was forced to spread my search wider and have since moved on to a better paid operation.

I have friends who started within a year or so, is it last in first out?

[fade to grey]

well, that's what I'm saying - this post isn't about why flybe are not doing well but those affected.
I don't think companies can do last in first out anymore, you have to have point scoring system with stuff like sim checks, sick days etc.

on the plus side I see flydubai taking non TR folks , with experience of 10T or greater - could be ideal for those wishing to make the move to a useful type. Albeit not in the UK

[A4]

I have friends who started within a year or so, is it last in first out?

I thought LIFO was not allowed any more under employment law. Is it not a meritocracy? So sickness, disciplinary, training etc can all be taken into account.

Having been in the same position as the Flybe guys (and girls) I feel for you. Best of luck.

A4

[gatbusdriver]

You will find that the points system that is used will be so heavily weighted towards length of service that it will effectively be LIFO.

[mad_jock]

Looking in thats what you would think but BALPA will get involved and they love seniority even if it means 4 people have to go instead of 2.

Someone told me at work today that Flybe are over crewed by 40 Captains in Manchester. Sounds a hellva lot could understand a couple but 40 seems very high.

[Artic Monkey]

No it isn't 40 captains, it's 40 pilots.

[vectored]

I would imagine that many of the guys on hearing this news will be brushing up CVs and firing out applications like theres no tomorrow. If many find places to go there might not be any need for redundancies at all!

I've noticed this advert for a non type rated 737 operator full time contract on the Thomson recruiting thread if anyone's seen it?

Non type rated 737NG Low hour first officers with C & M Recruitment Ltd | 465079 (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/job/465079/non-type-rated-737ng-low-hour-first-officers/)

[CheekyVisual]

Having been through this process myself, twice in the last few years ! I have a genuine concern that fly be are making the same mistake a few other companies that are no longer with us made. That is , if we cut a few aircraft a few routes a few pilots a few cabin crew a few engineers and a few office staff the company will suddenly become profitable. This knee jerk cutting in search of a core business that is profitable virtually never works especially if the company has underlying business problems, which reading other posts may be the case.

The manager giving the brief will always say this is vital for the company to survive and after we do it all will be well. It's not. it's just the easiest way for poor managers to keep the accountants and creditors happy for six months until they come looking for more cuts. Then the same process happens again to no ones surprise except those managers !

I really hope I'm wrong but it all looks and sounds horribly familiar. Good luck to all my friends and former colleagues I know how you are all feeling, it's a horrible time and I wish you all the best.

[FANS]

One of the snag for Flybe is that now it's listed, its problems are played out in public and there is huge pressure to report short-term improvements (i.e. quarterly). We all know however that what presents a short term improvement may not help out in the medium to longer term.

Sympathies to those affected as finding a new flight deck position will obviously be tough going, and many flybe guys have spent the last few years looking for the next rung up anyway but to no avail.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Cheeky, I think you might be right, sadly.

By the way does anyone know who it was that managed to oppose the 30 day consultation period that the Flybe dirty tricks department initially offered?

[remoak]

FAWeasel

You may not like JF, but having worked at both Air UK and JEA/BE/Flybe, he is more of a manager than the idiots at Air UK who handed the airline to the Dutch, which then resulted in the Air UK pilots getting the shafting they didn't deserve. I know who I'd rather work for!

[six-sixty]

LIFO is not illegal, however, if it leads to discrimination against a particular group i.e. young pilots, that's when it becomes an issue - on the basis of discrimination.

I agree, recent joiners are very likely to be young, which in itself is probably the result of age-discriminatory criteria in selection for these junior boys and girls on the mentored/part sponsored courses in the first place. Funny old world!

[FERetd]

six-sixty Quote "...is probably the result of age-discriminatory criteria..."

Or financial discrimination by selecting only those that can afford the training?

Oh dear, are the PC brigade out again?

[mad_jock]

Whats the T&C's for the youngsters?

Do they get their training loans payed back if they get made redundant?

[RJ100]

Beaver man & flieng

Seeing as this was posted on the Flight Deck Forums Terms & Endearments. It is a comment about the flight deck jobs.

RJ.

[FERetd]

RJ100 Quote "Seeing as this was posted on the Flight Deck Forums Terms & Endearments. It is a comment about the flight deck jobs."

Exactly, including how people get the jobs, how some unfortunates are going to lose their jobs and why they are going to lose their jobs.

[flieng]

I agree it is a forum primarily for flight deck. As I am a professional pilot (as well as a Licensed Engineer) I have the prerogative to speak about flight deck matters as well as any other subject I wish to as long is does not contravene the rules of PPRUNE. I have responded to an Engineer who seems to be under the impression that pilots only consider their own position, maybe he/she is correct?

[No Country Members]

No. He/she is not correct. Check out an engineering forum, perhaps find sympathy for your off topic argument there?

[clunk1001]

...and what about management loosing their jobs? Lets talk about them too.

Or do you pilots and engineers only think about yourself?:)

[FERetd]

Clunk1001 Quote"...and what about management loosing their jobs? Lets talk about them too.

Or do you pilots and engineers only think about yourself?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif"

Clunk, this has to be a wind up (I note the smiley face) but I will bite:-

Are you suggesting that some managers may lose their jobs?

What is the world coming to?

[mad_jock]

To be honest I think most pilots and engineers wouldn't have a tear for any managment redundancys in any airline.

50% of that is because in general we are a bunch of self centered gits.

And the other 50% is because both groups are quite remote from alot of the managment functions and have very little contact with most of them. Apart from an occassional snot o-gram which in the main are ignored because said snot o-gram was written with little or no real life experence of flying the line and mostly arn't pratically possible if they are even legal.

This post isn't pointing at Flybe managment BTW I don't have a clue how they deal with either groups.

[Otto Throttle]

Don't feel too sorry for the management team. I understand that the headline redundancy rate of 20% only applies to the very top levels of management, not the entire team company wide. So the actual number of redundancies here will only be low single figures.

As for the rest, I suspect most will keep their posts, especially after the recent restructuring.

[AtomKraft]

Leg

Thanks for the reply about the 175s. Must say that they mainly aren't to be found where I go, but are they going to take delivery of the a/c that they so confidently ordered- or not?

If the next ones have been deferred, I guess not.

I'll make the thrust of my enquiry a bit clearer.
I'ts a heck of a big change between ordering dozens of new jets one year and laying off hundreds of staff only a few years later.

What gives?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

APD and the economy. Definitely NOT the business model.

[AtomKraft]

Spanders.

APD is the same for all airlines. (and far too high).

I guess the economy affects us all too- Flybe more than the others then?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I know. I was being sarcastic. My post above is generally what the company have trotted out as a excuse for a while now.

[AtomKraft]

LSM.

CC.

Sarcasm is so difficult to convey on't web.

Personally, I was only seconded to them for a few weeks (as a Barbie pilot) when they took over Bacon. Long enough to not fancy them much...

I couldn't ever figure out their business model anyway. Someone told me the ticket pays for flying the planes and they make all the profit from flogging monster margin stuff (buns, drinks models of Flybe 'planes) to the punters. Have they all wised up at once?

Good Luck whatever happens.:ok:

[Tinwald]

Problem is fella, the monster margin stuff has so big a margin on them nobody buys them - too greedy in too many of the extra areas

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Good Luck
Thanks but I got out a couple of years ago.

[B Fraser]

Problem is fella, the monster margin stuff has so big a margin on them nobody buys them

Agreed, in-flight entertainment these days is laughing at the prices being asked for stuff I don't want. If I'm hungry, I'll eat at the airport where I have a real choice, a proper table and some elbow room. There is probably more cost to the airline in hauling that cr@p around than margin made from on-board sales.

Here's a free business tip. Rather than paying your people to try and flog me some Pringles, pay them to ask me questions about my journey. What worked well ? What didn't work well ? Why did I choose to fly with them ? Where am I travelling next and who will I use ? How will I make that choice ?

Who knows, Flybe may sort themselves out and get more of my company's business.


.....or maybe they won't.

[fade to grey]

oh dear here we go again....
Can we be clear that the average line pilot doesn't really get a say in the pricing policy of seats at their airline , or the bloody Pringles , or the sodding Hong Kong made embraer clip together planes.

there is a forum on here called " airlines, airports and routes". Might I suggest you go there instead.

[mad_jock]

Frazer you might find the crew are just as pissed of with some of the policys of the airline as you are.

The common bitch is stealing of planes to cover tech ones which means that instead of one plane being late there is 7-8 flights late and 7-8 crews lives screwed with possibly screwing the roster for the rest of the week and having to have an unplanned night stop. BUt apparently its cheaper to get the 7-8 flights away with under 2 hours late than have one 3-4 hours late.

Doesn't half piss the punters off though.

[Leg]

Mad jock, for someone who does not work for the company you have nailed it there in a very succinct post.

As for the other poster, don't remember your name, I do not see
any issue with order fleet replacement/expansion aircraft and then
having to rejig things at a later date, to quite Slippery Bill,
it's the economy stupid :rolleyes:

Edited to add that it's not just the economy though, chronic
systemic mismanagement has a large role to play too, and I
fear for the future if boy wonder stays in control :{

[CEJM]

BUt apparently its cheaper to get the 7-8 flights away with under 2 hours late than have one 3-4 hours late.

Doesn't half piss the punters off though.

Unfortunately Mad_jock, the punters have only got themselves to blame for that one. If they hadn't gone running to the European Courts for compensation than EU261 would quite possible not be in existence now.

The company I work for used to do the same as FlyBe, delay one flights as long as required and operate the rest according to schedule. Now with EU261 we change aircraft around to keep the arrival delays under 3 hours. Can't really blame the company for this.

Good luck to all the FlyBe staff, it must be a dreadfull time. :(

[AtomKraft]

Mad Jock.

Even in the short period I worked for them, they were doing this and lieing about it.

We were to operate GLA-MAN-GLA.

When we got to MAN, they said (and the word 'please' was never heard), now do MAN-EDI-MAN, then MAN back to GLA about 3 hours late.

The gave the punters some old pish as the reason for the delay. I simply told them what had happened.

My opinion of them was starting to be formed.....

[mad_jock]

Just because its the pax fault wont change them not using the flights.

With the ADP the flight prices are now into being more expensive than getting the train. And they don't have the ball ache of airports. Just rock up 10 mins before it leaves and they can take there own food and drinks with them.

If its a multiple hop your cheaper flying into europe then back into the UK again which is just plain barking.

[scotbill]

Return fare Glasgow - Benbecula £350 on the day - and the aeroplane leaves half empty.
Given there is little in life so perishable as an aircraft seat once the the doors are closed, would it not make more economic sense to flog them off cheap at the last minute?

[Yellow Sun]

Return fare Glasgow - Benbecula £350 on the day - and the aeroplane leaves half empty.
Given there is little in life so perishable as an aircraft seat once the the doors are closed, would it not make more economic sense to flog them off cheap at the last minute?

Nope, airlines have been there and done that and worked out that it's better to sell the seats in advance. I recall the little band of regular travelers to Amsterdam who used to queue up with their standby tickets, confident that there would be a seat for them as the aircraft was rarely full. The company stopped selling standby tickets and guess what?; the same little band still flew with us but were no longer subsidised by the rest of the passengers.

[scotbill]

Wasn't suggesting standby tickets. Non flexible tickets sold once the computer predicts that there is lots of wasted space surely provide some revenue where previously there was none.

You haven't commented on the utterly outrageous fare of £175 single for a 45 minute flight.

[TDK mk2]

Return fare Glasgow - Benbecula £350 on the day - and the aeroplane leaves half empty.
Given there is little in life so perishable as an aircraft seat once the the doors are closed, would it not make more economic sense to flog them off cheap at the last minute?
3rd Feb 2013 15:37


You're talking about Loganair here and they're not a low cost carrier, despite using the FlyBE brand. Loganair are more comparable to Eastern and just go and have a look at some of their domestic fares - ouch!

[VIRGA]

scotbill....The smaller the aircraft used the higher the price. Go and rent a navajo and a pilot to do the same 45min trip if you think like that.

It's not unusual for small short domestic routes to be as expensive as a long haul flight. If people want to get there fast and comfortable then fly, next step down probably the train, however if you want to pay £25.99 may I suggest you catch the bus or drive yourself.

[scotbill]

scotbill....The smaller the aircraft used the higher the price. Go and rent a navajo and a pilot to do the same 45min trip if you think like that.

It's not unusual for small short domestic routes to be as expensive as a long haul flight. If people want to get there fast and comfortable then fly, next step down probably the train, however if you want to pay £25.99 may I suggest you catch the bus or drive yourself. There are not too many train services to Benbecula so indeed one does drive via ferry.

However, you are deliberately ignoring the point. The Saab 340 has 34 seats. If it departs with 17 empty (as it often does) that is a completely wasted resource. The reason the locos make a profit is that they cling to the old airline accountant's mantra that the only thing that counts is "Bums on seats"

[Narrow Runway]

"However, you are deliberately ignoring the point. The Saab 340 has 34 seats. If it departs with 17 empty (as it often does) that is a completely wasted resource. The reason the locos make a profit is that they cling to the old airline accountant's mantra that the only thing that counts is "Bums on seats"

I'm not sure that it isn't you who is ignoring the facts here.

The loco business model works thus:

Buy a seat well in advance = cheap, or at least until the cheap seats have sold.
Buy a seat on the day = eye watering expense.

The full fare model works thus:

Buy a seat well in advance = cheap enough, until cheap seats sold.
Buy a seat on the day = eye watering expense.

The only difference here is that the loco's only operate on routes thick enough to provide a good load, hence generally fares appear cheaper due to greater numbers of bums on seats, business "efficiencies" and on board sales.

Both models rely on yield management, that allows them to tweak their prices higher as tickets sell out and the travel date approaches.

If Loganair were to sell seats cheaply on the day, no-one would buy in advance. The cash would run out and they'd go bust in a nutshell.

Clearer now?

[scotbill]

Clearer now?

Not in the least.

But thanks for the attempt to defend the indefensible. From the title of the thread, this economic model doesn't appear to be working.

[TDK mk2]

Who said anything about Loganair making people redundant?? They're a completely different company and as a franchise of FlyBE just use the FlyBE brand and reservations capability which works very well for them. So far as I know they are doing pretty well in spite of the inclement trading conditions.

They've always charged quite a lot but if you live in the Islands or Caithness you can use the air discount scheme which offers a substantial discount to those purchasing full fares. If you need to go to one of their destinations for the day then pay up and enjoy the ride.

Sorry for the thread drift. Back to FlyBE's woes. I'm sorry the crews are going through consultation. I wish them well and hope they can find a way to minimise the number forced out.

[Journey Man]

TDK mk2,

I believe WingoWango was making the point that this is a thread about FlyBe... :rolleyes:

[TDK mk2]

yes, sorry Wingowango - missed the irony. Again I hope that there is a bearable outcome for as many as possible at FlyBE. One never know's when one might find themselves in a similar position...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Indeed. However, scotbill raises an interesting point in that Flybe are bumbling around with a c.65% load factor, if that. That's pretty poor especially considering they make a lot of their income from on board sales (WTF is the phrase?) etc.

I know it's a balancing act but a poor LF doesn't seem to be working too well.

[mad_jock]

FLybe arn't.

Loganair and scottish economics of island flights are neither here nor there.

If you book a week in advance it comes down to under 200 and if your on the air discount scheme that will be even cheaper. The on the day price will only mainly hit goverment, NHS and utilitys and MOD. They have done the standby tickets thing in the past years ago and all the locals never buy a ticket and you just end up with a plane full of standby tickets and huge q's in the terminals and an utter ball ache with baggage working out which ones go and which stay. And the added hassel of having screaming PAX in the terminal begging to get on because there relative is about to die in Glasgow Royal for the 20th time that year.

The price of the flights has been spoken about as long as I can remember back to the days of pissing money into the wind with the first oil boom.

I suspect the Saab will be about 2100 an hour to operate.

Which at 200 quid a head return would bring it to 18 pax just to break even.

You could drop the aircraft size but to be honest the next size down would be the J41 but they would cost about the same but you would loose 7 seats and you would still need the cabin crew and you wouldn't be able to get get wheel chair pax onboard.

Loganair's model has been working for years and they are recruiting pilots.

If you wanted to go by a none air route to Benbecular it would be 80 quid return. So for 120 quid you are getting back 16 hours of your life.

You would leave at 12 lunchtime and get in at 22:10 and the return would be leaving at 7am and arriving at 14:20. And the ferry is canceled more often than flights and the ferry doesn't run every day of the week.

But if you look at a train from Glasgow to London the travel time is 5 hours.
About 130 quid return looking at booking a return next week for 7 days.

So you rock up to the airport an hour before departure. Its 1.5 hour sector and 30mins-hour clearing Gatwick so the train is still down by 1.5hours but you don't have to contend with the gatwick express at some highly expensive rate or the slow train into the center of town which can be an hour plus. You can take your own food and drink, leave your phone on while departing the station and more to the point nobody gives a toss if you have a rechargable battery in your bag or are reading your kindle.

Flybe to do the same route is the same price but with a connection in the middle. Easy is 10 quid cheaper but direct.

Before APD it was cheaper to fly now its comparable, the timings from most large population centers are virtually the same give or take 30mins. But you don't have to endure the airport experence at either end and in general train stations are right in the public transport systems which many airports arn't.

Basically anywhere south of EDI/GLA internal in the UK its alot more even playing field. To the north the time penalty for not going by air quite quickly puts rail out for most. I would take a train to be honest these days if I was paying myself. Work wise I tend to be trying to get to airports so flying makes sense.

If the route involves crossing water or is over 1:30 its more than likely going to be be better flying. Multi hop forget it fly into europe first.

More to the point though the Eastern model starts becoming more economical and flybe won't have the cash to see them off on routes previously contested like they did before. Punters do like the Eastern product and for all easterns faults they did have spare aircraft kicking around and the customer experence was pretty good considering the aircraft they ran especially in the J32 days.

There are going to be a few regional operators rubbing there hands and hatching plans to apply pressure.

So I suspect this is just round one and in someways the ones first out the door are going to be at an advantage to the ones that follow. If its last in first out at least they will still be inside 3 years on previous type ratings. As I can see there is going to be issues with folk going out the door with only a month or two left on there IR's. Personally if I was going to the sim for an OPC I would be asking the TRE to generate the LPC paper work every 6 months.

[HidekiTojo]

Any predictions for the finnancial performace of Flybe Uk for April 13-14?

This year I believe a loss of between £15-£20M (circa £17M).

[SmilingKnifed]

It could depend on who starts paying the bills. I guess those short of money are sometimes prepared to do dirty things with unsavoury people.

Re. Press Speculation (http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/flybe/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=59&newsid=311597)

[Say Mach Number]

Business is business. Does it really matter who pays the bills as long as they are paid on time and it keeps people in jobs?

A Ryanair pound note looks the same as a Flybe pound note according to my bank.....

[Narrow Runway]

If you can't understand the business principle, that isn't my problem.

The fact that the model may not work is not the point.

[Whispering Giant]

Announced to the LSE this morning, Flybe reaches agreement with Ryanair :-

RNS Number : 2043X
Flybe Group PLC
06 February 2013



Flybe Group plc



FLYBE GROUP REACHES AGREEMENT WITH RYANAIR TO CREATE FLYBE IRELAND IN THE EVENT OF A SUCCESSUL BID BY RYANAIR FOR AER LINGUS



The Board of Flybe Group plc ('Flybe') has today announced that it has reached agreement with Ryanair Holdings PLC ('Ryanair') over the possible transfer of a number of aircraft and operating routes as part of a package of remedies that Ryanair has submitted to the European Commission DG Competition ('EC'), in the context of its offer for Aer Lingus Group PLC ('Aer Lingus')



The proposed transaction is contingent upon the EC's approval of Ryanair's proposed remedies and a successful bid by Ryanair for Aer Lingus. If Ryanair's acquisition of Aer Lingus is completed, Flybe expects to seek formal shareholder approval for the acquisition of Flybe Ireland from Ryanair in early Autumn 2013.



Flybe also announces that it has received irrevocable acceptances representing 64% of the shareholders in support of this possible transaction. The European Commission had insisted on the pledging of irrevocable acceptances by over 50% of Flybe's shareholders as a condition precedent for the deal to create Flybe Ireland proceeding.


ENQUIRIES:



Flybe


Jim French, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer



Andrew Knuckey, Chief Financial Officer



SUMMARY



· The Board of Flybe has reached agreement with Ryanair to create a well-capitalised, well-funded business in Ireland in the event that Ryanair completes the takeover of Aer Lingus.



· The Board believes that the opportunity to serve the Irish aviation market is in line with its published strategy, and its previous solid track record of successful acquisitions.



THE TRANSACTION



· Flybe has agreed to acquire a new company, Flybe Ireland, from Ryanair for €1 million.



· Prior to its acquisition by Flybe, Ryanair has agreed to transfer to Flybe Ireland:



o 43 routes, all within Europe, many to or from current Flybe destinations;

o The requisite number of slots and licences to operate the routes;

o A minimum of 9 Airbus A320 aircraft;

o The requisite number of flight crew, aircraft engineers, management and facilities to operate the business;

o A cash injection of €100 million;

o All forward sales cash and liabilities, estimated at a further circa €50m in working capital funding.



· Ryanair in consultation with Flybe will undertake to develop a one year business plan to deliver a cost structure that based on the assumption that the preceding year's revenue remains the same, would provide €20 million in pre-tax profits in the 12 months following the transfer to Flybe Ireland. In the event that the business plan does not project €20 million in pre-tax profits, there is an agreed adjustment mechanism factored into the €100 million cash contribution referred to above.



FLYBE IRELAND



· Flybe Ireland will:

o Operate from bases in Dublin and Cork;

o Operate 43 routes to 34 destinations in Europe. Flybe currently operates to approximately half of those destinations in its Flybe UK business;

o Deploy Flybe's frequency model on the major city pairs, and its leisure model on the European leisure markets;

o Have the right to use the Aer Lingus brand for up to three years post the transaction. This will allow it to develop its own brand position in Ireland during a realistic transition period.



COMMITMENTS MADE BY FLYBE TO RYANAIR AS PART OF THE EC REMEDY PACKAGE



· Flybe Ireland will be committed to operating an agreed frequency on routes, with the ability to terminate a certain number of routes per year whilst maintaining stable capacity in the Irish market.

· If Flybe Ireland exceeds the route termination threshold, it will pay a contractual penalty.



THE EXPECTED TIMETABLE



Outlined below is the expected timetable:



· March 2013

o On 6 March 2013, EC is scheduled to give a decision on the competition aspects of Ryanair's bid for Aer Lingus.

o If the EC gives the agreement for Ryanair's bid for Aer Lingus to proceed, Ryanair may then re-activate its bid with a view to gaining sufficient acceptances from Aer Lingus shareholders.



· May 2013

o If the Ryanair bid is reactivated and is successful, Flybe would expect the deal to close on or around mid May.



· Summer 2013:

o If the Ryanair bid for Aer Lingus has been successful, Flybe will undertake due diligence on the new entity.

o It is expected that the Class 1 Circular will be completed and posted to Shareholders in August 2013, followed by an EGM for shareholders to vote.



· October 2013:

o The effective date of the transaction is envisaged to be October 2013 with Flybe Ireland commencing operations under Flybe's ownership at the beginning of the 2013/14 IATA winter season.




WHY THE BOARD BELIEVES THE TRANSACTION TO BE BENEFICIAL TO FLYBE GROUP SHAREHOLDERS



The Board of Flybe believes that the transaction offers the following benefits to its shareholders:



· As stated at IPO, the Group's strategy is to diversify away from its reliance upon UK revenue. This opportunity is a good mixture of diversification, and overlap with its existing route network, to fulfil this goal.



· Flybe has existing presence and network points at approximately half of the 34 destinations in the 43 route package.



· Flybe Ireland will be a well-capitalised company, with approximately €150m of cash on the balance sheet, including the one off capitalisation by Ryanair, and the transfer of the forward sales cash within Aer Lingus at the time of the transaction.



· Flybe Ireland will increase Flybe's ability to drive further economies of scale from fleet basing, suppliers and airports, as part of this transaction.



· Flybe has proven expertise in the acquisition and turnaround of acquired entities:



· In March 2007, Flybe acquired British Airways' UK regional airline, BA Connect, a business losing £40m per year at acquisition. The business was fully integrated into Flybe within 12 months, and made profits by the end of its first year of ownership. At the time of its acquisition the business had 39 aircraft, 1,700 staff and £350m of revenue.



· In August 2011, Flybe acquired the loss making Finncomm Airlines (Finland based), in a joint venture with Finnair. This business has been restructured and refocused, and as a result has delivered substantial growth with an expectation of profits in 2013/14 in line with the original acquisition plan. The business now has a €300m turnover and operates 28 aircraft.



Commenting on today's announcement Jim French, Flybe's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, said:



"Flybe would be delighted to be granted the opportunity to service the Irish aviation market through Flybe Ireland, an airline which would be based in Ireland and dedicated to developing a broad range of scheduled services for business and leisure markets.



"This development of creating a Dublin based airline is in line with the Company's stated strategy at the time of IPO - which was to diversify away from reliance upon the UK economy. The terms of the deal negotiated ensure that Flybe Ireland will be a well-capitalised, well-funded company, enabling us to deliver upon that strategic aim. Flybe has a history of acquiring businesses of scale, restructuring and refocusing them and as a result delivering profitable returns. This opportunity plays clearly to that corporate strength.



"Flybe would be proud to have the chance to serve the Irish markets, and would be, as we seek to be throughout the rest of Europe, a good employer and corporate citizen.



"However, before Flybe Ireland can come into being there are many hurdles to overcome, not least the EC accepting the remedies offered by Ryanair in its offer to take over Aer Lingus, and then the shareholders of Aer Lingus accepting an offer from Ryanair. However, Flybe has positioned itself well if these events come to pass, while in the meantime we continue to focus upon the delivery of the cost reduction and efficiency plan we outlined in January".

6 February 2013

[scotbill]

The fact that the model may not work is not the point.
You cannot be serious!!

[flyhigh2fly]

Ryanair agrees possible route transfer with Flybe | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/05/uk-ryanair-flybe-idUSLNE91400R20130205)

[FANS]

If Flybe are taking on Aer Lingus routes and getting €100m in the process, it should buy them time.

Whether the end result will be better or not is difficult, as Flybe seem to accord blame to everyone but themselves - APD, economy etc.

[Otto Throttle]

The management of Flybe UK will still bang on like a chav on Jeremy Kyle that all their woes are everyone else's fault but their own. No willingness to take responsibility for their own failings.

The Ryanair deal will have no impact on the current situation at the UK airline as this remains a stand-alone business from any other Euro ventures.

[BAe 146-100]

I guess the MPL's that are currently in training are on hold or do they come in with experienced going out? Wouldn't be the first time..

[Pizzaro]

Flybe cadet schemes to continue despite restructuring | Pilot Career News (http://www.pilotcareernews.com/flybe-cadet-schemes-to-continue-despite-restructuring/)

Surely this cannot be legal???????

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Why would it be illegal?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

we are in consultation with the UK CAA over the completion of MPL training for pilots currently within such schemes if there are to be no places immediately available within Flybe.

Did you read it all?

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Yep, and again the question stands.

[Pizzaro]

How can they make pilots redundant and yet at the same time they are training up their replacements????

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Sorry BBB not for you!

[Pizzaro]

Thanks for your explanation BBB!!!

[Anunaki]

Because they are not employees of Flybe until they finish their training,go through type rating,where they sign their contracts,so yes,it is legal!:hmm: so now they can make people redundant,and "hire" their graduates in 18 months time,get it?!check the law...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Don't panic.

No more free tea or coffee for crew now and the ten quid Christmas voucher has gone too. That'll keep management in R8s...I mean that'll save enough money so that management don't have to actually manage and sell tickets at the right price or cull the top heaviness.

[Snigs]

Jack Walker will be spinning in his grave. He wanted to share his company with the employees, but now the company management is taking away the tea and coffee! I bet they'll still have free stuff.

[Soopamart]

When I first started with Flybe one of the blokes told me to drink as much free tea/coffee as I could because it made up for the sh*t wages! Going to have to use an extra sheet of bog roll each time now instead!:}

[FANS]

The day of the IPO was the day short term decision making ruled the roost.

[judge11]

Jock

For those of us not up to speed on the current internal machinations of flybe, would you mind expanding and/or explaining the implications of your last post. I'm sure it would be appreciated.:ok:

[Han 1st Solo]

I'm not the company's biggest fan at the moment its safe to say but to clear the tea & coffee thing up, we're talking about free drinks in the crew room, this will apply company wide in head office too, free refreshments on board the aircraft as far as I'm aware will still be provided so I think most of us can cope with the new situation if it helps save jobs, particularly mine!

[Narrow Runway]

How on earth can removing Free Tea and Coffee in the crew room save jobs?

How much of the bloody stuff do you consume in your pre flight planning?

If it saves 1 job, I'd be surprised.

Worse to come I suspect.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I'm not the company's biggest fan at the moment its safe to say but to clear the tea & coffee thing up, we're talking about free drinks in the crew room, this will apply company wide in head office too, free refreshments on board the aircraft as far as I'm aware will still be provided so I think most of us can cope with the new situation if it helps save jobs, particularly mine!

Surely providing refreshments for airport standby crew is as much a duty of care as providing unhealthy, inedible, tins of cack and crisps when you're operating.

[hobnobanyone]

Fiddling while Rome burns?

It's more like arranging deck chairs on the titanic.

Jack Walker would be crying in his grave right now.

[Han 1st Solo]

Surely providing refreshments for airport standby crew is as much a duty of care as providing unhealthy, inedible, tins of cack and crisps when you're operating.

With the new proposed crewing levels not even sure we'll have enough crew for airport shaft in the future.:E

But yeah you're right, although I'm sure the company will argue that's what our duty pay is for unfortunately. We don't even have a tea/coffee machine in our base just a crappy kettle, not that it'll be my base for much longer mind! :{

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Then they'll be arguing for delays while you get your brekky:ok:

Hope everything works out for you.

[Resurgam]

Narrow Runway – to answer your question; “how on earth can removing Free Tea and Coffee in the crew room save jobs?” - all I can say is that if you had ‘The Big Picture’ you would understand.
Unfortunately like you, those of us who work for the company, don’t understand either as we don’t have ‘The Big Picture’ – a fact I know to be true because our management keep telling us so – in fact every time somebody on the front line points out a problem or suggests an idea, we are told it can’t be a good idea as we don’t have “The Big Picture”.
Luckily our management do have “The Big Picture” – which is rumored to be kept on a wall in an office down in Exeter. Obviously the office has to be kept locked to prevent non management types accidently stumbling in and having their brains fried by its magnificent awesomeness.
We are however occasionally allowed snippets of information that the management have divined from “The Big Picture”, and based on that I can confidently state that the Flybe business model is not at fault, and that all the companies current woes are due to external factors such as the high price of fuel, UK APD, and the global economic crisis. These factors also affect other British airlines which is why, Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet 2, and BA are also unprofitable…...Oh, er, hang on, wait a minute………………

[DooblerChina]

best post I've read in months....:D

[JB007]

Whatever "The Big Picture" looks like, it should be mandatory to be given to all pilots upon retirement, so then we can all quote Blackadder when he found out "Bob" was a girl - "Ahhhh, good lord..."

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I understand that the big picture has been offered redundancy in an effort to reduce overheads.

A new big picture, currently undergoing Flybe specific big picture training, has been told it will be kept on and has been offered the space on the wall. It does however, have to pay for its own blu tack.

[Narrow Runway]

No. You're wrong.

I'm sure it would have to be an "enhanced" redundancy package to tempt the big picture to leave.

Some kind of golden parachute as it falls off the wall perhaps?

[Ride the Fire]

Had a look at flyby website recently out of interest.
5
NCL - LGW -early morning 5 days in advance - cheapest fare (first flight on a sat.) - £236
Ohhh
so I looked on BA - £96 (to LHR mind you)

You know you're in trouble when a management gives cabin crew a PA to read out stating that they have just won an award for the best inflight catering when we are basically an inflight vending machine. Really who comes up with this S**T.
Flybe management have basically lost touch with their customer.
We need to get back to basics and start focusing on who matters - the customer.

Cant be arsed to talk about more cause match of the day is about to start

[Artie Fufkin]

Whatever "The Big Picture" looks like, it should be mandatory to be given to all pilots upon retirement, so then we can all quote Blackadder when he found out "Bob" was a girl - "Ahhhh, good lord..."

Or maybe "Oh, a scythe..."

[Aldente]

Had a look at flyby website recently out of interest.
5
NCL - LGW -early morning 5 days in advance - cheapest fare (first flight on a sat.) - £236

Have to agree about the high fares relative to other locos. Planned a trip from Scotland to LGW for May :-

£131 return with FlyBe, £61 with Easyjet. For a family of 4 that's an extra £280!!!

Guess who I booked with?!

PS

Another significant factor in my opinion is FlyBe's hand baggage size which is smaller than anyone else's at 55 x 40 x 23 , whereas Easyjet's is 56 x 45 x 25.
The standard "cabin sized" wheelie case does not meet FlyBe's more restrictive limits (at only 40 cm wide) so I would have to pay extra for my bag as well!

It really is a no brainer!

[B Fraser]

I'll chip in from a passenger viewpoint. I do try and book Flybe and have a choice of two local airports. If Flybe are successful then I will have increased choice and competition. The reality is that I constantly find that if I want to get to my destination at a business-friendly time e.g. between 08:00 and 10:00 and return on a departing flight around 18:00 then Flybe don't cut it. Furthermore, I don't want to explain why I'm claiming hundreds of pounds in expenses where Easyjet or even "flag carrier" alternatives are half the price.

Winning an award for in-flight catering ? What does that mean, one more flavour of overpriced Pringles compared to the competition ? I guess I'll have to start flying at twice the price and a day earlier with a hotel stay as there may be a paprika option on the catering trolley. But wait, I can get my laptop in the overhead bin in an ATR-72 or Airbus but not in a Dash-8 and I won't be hungry as I will have breakfast at Costa Coffee. The only attraction of picking Flybe is that the aircraft will be half empty and the crew won't be distracted by a full bladder having had a free cuppa in the crew room.

If you are an employee then please print this post and send it to those who have "the big picture". I post under my own name and don't mind being contacted if the management are serious about creating a winning business. The only big picture that counts is the one that drives customer spend.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It'll just get a stern ignoring Mr F.

They know what they're doing, making flying better:rolleyes:

[Aldente]

Spot on Mr Fraser

[B Fraser]

Ho Hum,

I've just printed my orange boarding pass for tomorrow's jaunt. The red and yellow print cartridges are getting low however the blue one is still full. It's a pity given that driving to Bristol airport is a pain in the bum whereas Exeter airport is just off the M5.

[Capetonian]

Spot on Mr Fraser. I avoid Flybe on business for two reasons, mainly their unreliability, and secondly their uncompetitive pricing.

I avoid Flybe for leisure travel because flying with them is usually not a pleasant experience, and even when travelling for leisure, I prefer to know when I'm getting to my destination and to be treated with some decency.

They lost the plot a while ago.

[mad_jock]

Come on they arn't that bad compared to some.

The crew have always seem pleasant the circus air experence is the same as any others carriers.

The stealing of planes seems bloody daft to me but then again I am a pilot not an accountant.

The baggage thing is a pain just as it is on all other carriers that use it as a revenue stream.

Those dashes though do seem to go tech alot.

[no sponsor]

I think it was edition 675 of the Harvard Business Review which published a survey of management types stating that the 'Big Picture' muse was often rolled out when neither the Board, or the senior executive management, had any idea how to stop unrecoverable drops in share price, revenues and profit. Apparently, when they decided to padlock the biscuit barrel and close the executive toilet, and use British Rail toilet paper in the minions toilet, it was a sign that not only were things bad, but that, god forbid, their share option price was probably out of reach and would have to be clawed back through slush funds in their expense accounts.

[six-sixty]

I can think of how £350k per year could be saved immediately...

[WMB]

To Mad Jock

"Those dashes though do seem to go tech alot"

Amen to that brother!!!!

[Cloud1]

Right then ladies and gents.....

Restructuring
Ok, so many jobs are being cut or outsourced and this has affected 10% consisting of crew, ground and office staff and engineers and 20% management. It is not ideal but the intention is to reduce overheads in areas which are perceived as either over staffed (and yes this really is the case in some areas) or where the roles are no longer required.

Drinks
Free drinks have been offered for a long long time at Mr Walkers request. To make so many cuts but still offer free Kenco is ludicrous and a petition was set up in Exeter to remove the free drinks. Kettles will be provided to out stations and I am sure the crew and ground staff can rustle a few quid to cover coffee and tea. If on an airport standby bring some tea bags and there is no issue. If this really is a problem I would suggest these people need to get out more and see what problems are affecting the real world.

Fares
They are expensive and Flybe do need to wake up and review their pricing strategy. However this can not be said for every route.

Cabin baggage
Generous for the type of aircraft mostly used on domestics. Plenty of bags available on the market: Cabin Luggage, Hand Luggage, Flight Bags & Wheeled Holdalls from Luggage Superstore. - Page 1 of 15 (http://www.luggagesuperstore.co.uk/cabin-luggage/c25)

I found several on the web which fit in flybes sizes so what is the problem. This is not an advert and there are many sites selling cabin bags

We are suppose to be representing professionals here instead it's just another opportunity to moan, complain, slag off call it whatever but its not constructive and does not help.

[DrumMachine]

Cloud1, well said :D

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Cloud1, exactly how many "managers" are making up that 20% from the massively top heavy management?!

As far as free drinks go how does that compare to JFs million pound interest free loan? Just another case of the staff subsidising the business.

There's cost saving then there's just plain stupid.

[Leg]

Cloud1, your statement under the title 'restructuring' is factually incorrect, the problem is you have believed the management spin.

The guy who complained flight times are anti business is having a giraffe if he thinks the orange lot are. Oh, he lives in Exeter, quiet backwater when it comes to the schedule, but who lives there anyway other than company yes men...
And you really should pay attention when you say you should be asked
questions, ain't you seen the endless surveys the cabin crew thrust at you?

All flights from the Republic of Scotland leave and arrive at 'business friendly times' :ok:

[Aldente]

Cabin baggage
Generous for the type of aircraft mostly used on domestics. Plenty of bags available on the market: Cabin Luggage, Hand Luggage, Flight Bags & Wheeled Holdalls from Luggage Superstore. - Page 1 of 15 (http://www.luggagesuperstore.co.uk/cabin-luggage/c25)

I found several on the web which fit in FlyBe sizes so what is the problem. This is not an advert and there are many sites selling cabin bags Maybe, however the IATA standard cabin bag size is 56 x 45 x 25 *including wheels*. My usual cabin bag is exactly 56 cm including the wheels and so accepted by Easyjet and most others.

FlyBe however has (rather sneakily in my opinion) reduced its allowance by 1 cm to 55 cm thereby ensuring the "standard" size bag such as mine and most others doesn't fit.This then adds an extra £14 per sector on top of what are already higher fares than their competitors.

That being said, as a pilot myself who has worked for another airline who failed to adapt in a ruthless and cut-throat market place (too little too late), I know the frustration the employees must be feeling!

[speedrestriction]

Nothing sneaky aldente, just the size of the overhead lockers ^^

[B Fraser]

The guy who complained flight times are anti business is having a giraffe

Leg,

Let's take a recent example. Anyone living west of Swindon has a number of choices that avoid the schlep up to Heathrow. Within the last month or thereabouts, I had to go to Newcastle for the day on a Wednesday. Now Flybe do have a service that goes from Exeter. The problem is that the BE703 leaves at 12:15 arriving 13:40 meaning that a couple of hours of work can be done at a push. So how do you get home ? There is a problem in that the only flight of the day is the BE702 leaving Newcastle at 10:25 so that means a night in a hotel and Thursday is a write-off. The same problem would also apply in the reverse direction.

So, let's look at EasyJet. The 08:45 from Bristol delivers me to Newcastle at a reasonable 09:50. I can be in the office at 10:30 and leave at 17:00 to have dinner in the airport before getting the 18:50. You are now probably speculating what the demand on this route is so I'll enlighten you. EasyJet have two Airbus flights on a Wednesday and three on a Thursday in either direction. I can only comment on the flights I took but the load factors were well over 90%.

You ask about Flybe ain't you seen the endless surveys the cabin crew thrust at you? (sic)

Well it isn't very likely, is it ? Oh, and my laptop bag fitted in the overhead bin.

[Leg]

Private Fraser, if your local airport is Bristol why are you going on about Exeter, strange :=

You ask about Flybe
Quote:
ain't you seen the endless surveys the cabin crew thrust at you? (sic)
Well it isn't very likely, is it ?

What are you on about? :rolleyes:

[Aldente]

Nothing sneaky aldente, just the size of the overhead lockers

But FlyBe's limit is 55cm long vs others of 56cm. Surely an extra 1 cm in length doesn't mean a bag won't fit in an overhead locker?! It's the width that matters for a Q400 and that's why FlyBe's limit is only 40 cm compare to 45 cm allowed by others.

An extra 1 cm makes no difference to stowing the cabin baggage but it does conveniently allow FlyBe to levy an extra £13.99 per sector which affects my decision making process if I have a choice!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Private Fraser...
What are you on about? :rolleyes:

Maybe you'd only be given a survey if you actually travel on Flybe?

[Leg]

Maybe you'd only be given a survey if you actually travel on Flybe?

He said earlier that he tried to use flybe where possible, but point taken.

[notjustanumber]

Cloud1's post states

"Right then ladies and gents.....

Restructuring
Ok, so many jobs are being cut or outsourced and this has affected 10% consisting of crew, ground and office staff and engineers and 20% management. It is not ideal but the intention is to reduce overheads in areas which are perceived as either over staffed (and yes this really is the case in some areas) or where the roles are no longer required.

Drinks
Free drinks have been offered for a long long time at Mr Walkers request. To make so many cuts but still offer free Kenco is ludicrous and a petition was set up in Exeter to remove the free drinks. Kettles will be provided to out stations and I am sure the crew and ground staff can rustle a few quid to cover coffee and tea. If on an airport standby bring some tea bags and there is no issue. If this really is a problem I would suggest these people need to get out more and see what problems are affecting the real world.

Fares
They are expensive and Flybe do need to wake up and review their pricing strategy. However this can not be said for every route.

Cabin baggage
Generous for the type of aircraft mostly used on domestics. Plenty of bags available on the market: Cabin Luggage, Hand Luggage, Flight Bags & Wheeled Holdalls from Luggage Superstore. - Page 1 of 15 (http://www.luggagesuperstore.co.uk/cabin-luggage/c25)

I found several on the web which fit in flybes sizes so what is the problem. This is not an advert and there are many sites selling cabin bags

We are suppose to be representing professionals here instead it's just another opportunity to moan, complain, slag off call it whatever but its not constructive and does not help."


Oh dear your post is dillousional and typical of those who prefer to keep their heads in the sand and listen to what they are expected to know rather than what is actually happening.

In terms of your restructuring comments, you are so ill informed that its laughable.
The exact percentage of pilots made redundant is not confirmed but it will be in excess of 10% of the totals. The cabin crew have been hit hard at some bases and less so at others but 10% total is not far wrong. The engineers are another matter and an area we should be concerned about. The line engineers who we deal with every day have seen the numbers at the bases not being outsourced cut by an average of 50%, the line engineering management has been cut by approx 60%, the hangar engineering is around 10%. I would doubt very much if we see anything like 20% cuts in senior management where we have become top heavy.

In terms of the free tea and coffee. In the rest area of the training academy there may well be a case for charging but in the work areas if this is part of the plan to restructure the business then i am fearful of the future as there are much much bigger issues that dwarf any savings made in this area.

The fares are too high and can be said for every route our fares are uncompetative.

Cant argue with your points on cabin baggage the allowances are more than some other regional operators give.

[Otto Throttle]

I give it til mid-summer (assuming of course the company doesn't curl up its toes and die in the meantime) and this will be the Flybe "oops, we overdid it and now we're recruiting" thread.

Clueless as they are untrustworthy.

[Ride the Fire]

The end is near I feel - that sinking feeling.
The management still seem to believe that the reason that Flybe are loosing lots of ££££ is primarily down to the economy and APD. I will let them off the hook a bit because the economy is poopoo and APD is way too high but all you seem to get from Exeter is "the business model is not broken its ALL someone else's fault.
The managements complete lack of responsibility for the airlines current situation is very worrying. Unless we get a severe management shake up and new blood brought in I fear that this will be Flybe UKs last summer.
I will put my house on us not being able to operate a full summer schedule.
As was mentioned in a previous post we will have nowhere near enough line engineers - they are all leaving - things are already beginning to fall apart and it's only March.

Come May or June as the summer schedule kicks in more and more aircraft will be grounded due to overrunning engineering tasks and the airline will begin to implode.
What a great cost saving strategy - phase 1 - cut costs by removing frontline operational staff just in time for summer - the only time we make any money -
awesome!
Phase 2 - make do with what is left over and collapse in the winter

[Capetonian]

Ride the Fire I agree with much of what you say, but as you are (apparently) an employee of the company, aren't you creating a self-fulfilling prophecy in that anyone who reads this will be reluctant to book Flybe, driving customers to the competition? I am just planning some of my May-August travel, including at least 4 trips to/from JER and GCI. Your words do not give me much confidence in booking with Flybe (admittedly I probably wouldn't do so anyway given a choice) but I am even less likely to do so now.

It looks as if Condor Ferries will be getting a greater portion of my CI travel spend than in the previous years.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

The management have been getting away with not managing for so long I think everybody expects it now, standby by for golden hand shakes (or is it parachutes? I dunno) for them.

They've chopped the wrong people IMO. The airline would keep running without most of management on a day to day basis. No pilots, cabin crew or engineers and it stops immediately.

[Clandestino]

RidetheFire is absolutely right. While he probably is indeed, we are repeatedly reminded here that it is safer to shut up and keep serving the cause. Banzai!

there is a mass exodus of pilots too on the cards here

Wonder where will Q400 pilots go?

[Globally Challenged]

They will all move to Jets

[Clandestino]

After the jet guys depart? Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't see bright perspective for Q400 drivers looking to abandon the sinking ship.

[RexBanner]

Clandestino being rated on the Q400 isn't some kind of death knell for employment prospects. It is a heavy EFIS equipped turboprop that cruises just below average jet speed. Flydubai are happy to take Q400 drivers and if you open your mind and go outside the comfort zone a little there are other employers that will give the chance for a move onto Jets. Q400 pilots are not as doomed as you think.

[DrumMachine]

Ride the Fire:

Not a bright post on a forum inhabited by customers and journo's. :=

I also believe that it is unfounded; yes we are having some tough days and could have perhaps done more earlier, but at least we have started a turnaround now. So, I'll take that bet, is it a nice house?;)

[Love_joy]

Not a bright post on a forum inhabited by customers and journo's

A fair point, but the current management style of keeping our heads in sand pretending its all not happening has to stop.

As horrible as the current times are, the head count reduction is the first pro-active move from the top we've see in a very long time.

I've just been trawling some of the facts and figures from previously released updates to the city. It is true we've exhausted every excuse in the Excuses for Airline CEO's Handbook, apart from one; "we could have done more". We appear to be focused entirely on revenue per passenger, rather than other metrics. This results in an incorrect pricing profile at the point of booking. One of the biggest complaints I hear from friends, family and our customers.

We should worry about filling the aircraft at every opportunity. An empty seat flown can never be resold, it's gone forever.

That said, we are teetering on the edge between profitability and loss. All is not lost. If we can get our pricing sorted, I'm confident we'll weather this storm.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

#shouldhavepurchasedtheboeing

[Lord Spandex Masher]

#would'vehadtopayboeingsalariesandweallknowthatwasnevergoing tohappenbecausetheythoughteveryonewouldjustbuggeroff.

#andtheywoulda.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Perhaps if they had done they would also be............................ ............................oh what's the word........................oh yes, competitive.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I agree, completely.

Just saying the reason that "management" didn't go for the 737. Gun/foot thinking.

[Love_joy]

Dash 8 Q400, $27M
Embraer 175, $28M

Boeing 737-800, list $84.4M......

Its not hard to see why a small airline went they way they did

[Snigs]

One an earlier post Mr Spandex I agree with the sentiment but I think the order is perhaps flawed.

1st. Engineers. We need them to get and keep the aircraft in the air. They are the utmost priority to keep in Flybe and, unfortunately the best seem to be leaving.

2nd. Pilots & Cabin Crew. They are the ones that move the aircraft (and the passengers) to their destinations safely. Again, unfortunately the best seem to be moving to other airlines who will probably give better T's & C's. Flybe beware I say!

Last, the management, we could survive with half of them, particularly at the top!

[RAFAT]

Whilst most of us agree that contracting out engineering and ground services posts is not a solution to the problems at Flybe, and making crew redundant will almost certainly lead to a shortage in the summer, perhaps what the management are actually doing is lowering the bottom line in preparation to sell the airline. The long-term effect of contracting out the above posts and making crew redundant would therefore be of no concern to them.

[fade to grey]

Hi,
Well I think it's a shame. I thought the product was just fine, going backwards and forwards LGW-NCL/EDI in summer 2011 to service our contracts. Admittedly the company was paying but the service was mainly ontime and fine.

As for Q400 drivers moving on, it's a tricky one. I think Rex overstates the case slightly as it may be a 'heavy' TP (compared with what ? A King Air ?) but for non type rated it's all about the weight of the aircraft you have flown and that isn't heavy enough.Admittedly some airlines still have ridiculous random goalposts for such things....

Saying you can join Flydubai is fine, but flying rotations to Afghanistan in the middle of the night and living in Dubai won't be everyone's cup of tea

[MUFC_fan]

Monarch, BA, Thomson, FlyDubai, easyJet, Qatar and I'm sure many others consider the Q4 within their weight bandings for non-TR.

I'm not saying they'd be the first port of call when looking for crew but they're certainly not ruling them out all together.

[fade to grey]

Ah OK, thats better than I thought then

[Leg]

As this thread title is "flybe axing jobs" lets get the thread back on track.

Hearing reports the company want to stick to the original plan and will
issue 80 odd redundancy notices next week, sad news. Seemingly
the future of the company depends on it and they will do whatever
it takes no matter how unpleasant.

[Boing7117]

It is true that the company will do whatever is necessary to make a financial saving but we're not quite at the the compulsory redundancy stage yet.

Leg, your information is inaccurate. Quite a number of pilots have already left the company for pastures (or deserts) new. alternative measures are still being considered, the major one being a cost saving initiative that will involve a reduction in pay in exchange for additional days off. A majority vote on this issue might be enough of a mandate for sufficient savings to be made in pilot employment costs to prevent compulsory redundancies.

[Pucka]

Sad thing is, JF never encouraged loyalty with his pilots..infact he pretty much despised them and all those associated with trying to drive jersey European/Fly B into better pastures. As a supplier a while back, they were such late settlers of invoices that taking FB to court was a regular threat from our office..what comes around....etc!! sad for the pilots left cleaning up the corporate puke...

[Leg]

Boing7117, sorry to burst your bubble but the company pay lip service to Balpa, always have and always will. They will do what they have to do to ensure their plans come through.

I have this from a contact so it's gospel.

There will be comp redundancies next week, maybe not 80 but near to that number.

The Balpa 5% pay cut ballot is a waste of time as the management are not interested or need it as job cuts will achieve the 5.5m saving which is what they wanted from the outset, see a pattern here? They get what they want, everything else is just wasting time and building false hopes.

It's not nice but watch as it comes true next week, you read it here first.

[six-sixty]

Leg, whoever you are: Even if you DO have inside knowledge on what's going to happen, did you think for one second about the distress your remarks might be causing to those who think they are at risk from this unpleasantness? People who might be about to lose potentially everything? So you can look all in-the-know on an anonymous forum?? You total ****.

[Boing7117]

Thanks for your insight Leg from your contact on the inside.

I look forward to receiving my redundancy letter next week then, and when I do, once I've got round to deciding how I'm going to make ends meet and all that, I must remember to drop you a PM to say how correct you were.

But if I don't, and if my colleagues don't because we've managed to work with the company to make the necessary savings, will you revisit this thread and make a formal apology to me and my colleagues for your insensitive, crass and questionable statements regarding my future and the future of my colleagues at Flybe?

You better do.

[hobnobanyone]

As if this entire process isn't stressful enough as it is already.

It's probably best not to speculate on anything at the moment.

Hope when d-day comes, we all are ok. In the meantime, my outbox is still full of speculative cvs.

This entire process has been horrific from the start.

[Leg]

I am trying to give you some information here guys, that's all, do not shoot the messenger. I cannot say where I heard this, but it is A1. My intention is not to alarm anyone, indeed, have you been asleep? It is to warn the people who think if they stick their head in the sand it will all go away, I have news for you IT WILL NOT. I take no joy whatsoever bringing this news, but felt it would forewarn those who are at risk, or would you rather find out next week you have no job, get real for :mad: sake people.

I say again, the company are not interested in Balpas 5% proposal as it stands, but I guess the ballot is so vague we could be voting for anything. The company want the 5% to be PERMANENT. Even if Balpa go off to consider it, the next meeting is on the 20th so hardly enough time.

And for those calling me names on here, I would accept a 5% pay cut to save jobs, even permanent but Balpa are not being truthful to you over this.

[RexBanner]

And of course, Leg, the pilots at Flybe do not realise their jobs are currently at risk? I take it you think they all sit glued to their computer screens, pprune especially, just waiting to plan their next career move based only on seeing what the latest rumour is from an anonymous talking head on an Internet rumour forum.

For those of us who act realistically in these situations of course we have been making alternative plans so no one has their head in the sand. But you have offered nothing but baseless second hand information, which for all you know could be someone either having their wires crossed or deliberately feeding you duff information.

You have then delivered this "information" in a highly crass way to people on here rather than just adopting a take it with a pinch of salt wait and see approach. In the meantime I'm sure people are aware that it might be a good idea to make alternative plans.

All you are doing is winding up people currently under enormous amounts of stress, with the attitude that you are important because you and you alone have this "exclusive information" that no one else has access to. For that reason that is why people are calling you a troll.

[six-sixty]

You don't have to dig too far back through this dudes posts to see how credible his "gospel" source is... In November he confirmed we would be merging with Virgin. Leave it with you!

[Artic Monkey]

What wingowango said.

Nothing leg says is going to change anything chaps so ignore him. What will be will be but I'll put my faith in BALPA to sort this out rather than listen to unsubstantiated rumours on a "rumour" forum.

So come on leg, get your backside on the BALPA forum and reveal all. So you're saying BALPA are lying to us? That's a serious accusation if true :=

[FL370 Officeboy]

#178 (permalink)
Leg

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 62
Boing7117, sorry to burst your bubble but the company pay lip service to Balpa, always have and always will. They will do what they have to do to ensure their plans come through.

I have this from a contact so it's gospel.

There will be comp redundancies next week, maybe not 80 but near to that number.

The Balpa 5% pay cut ballot is a waste of time as the management are not interested or need it as job cuts will achieve the 5.5m saving which is what they wanted from the outset, see a pattern here? They get what they want, everything else is just wasting time and building false hopes.

It's not nice but watch as it comes true next week, you read it here first.

Someone is going to be eating humble pie this morning

[Panther1984]

Looks like Mr Leg hasn't got a 'leg' to stand on this morning!

[beerdrinker]

Please tell me it is not as bad as was first thought.

BD (Pal of a chap whose son is in the danger area)

[Serenity]

Hear there is a new company newsletter out today ....

Fingers crossed for all.

[JAR]

No compulsory redundancies and BALPA was listened to.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

What have you had to give up?

[Leg]

Fl370 Office Boy

Someone is going to be eating humble pie this morning

Jumped the gun there son, seen the latest drivel from the company the day after?



JAR

No compulsory redundancies and BALPA was listened to


Are you insane? :eek:

[Leg]

Got it wrong? The fat lady has not even got to her feet, let alone started to sing, son. ;)

[CaptainCoin]

Unfortunately it is very hard to be positive about what happened. Yes maybe Leg's little prediction didn't come to fruition this time but I'm afraid it is plainly obvious to all that it is only a matter of time before the axe falls.. When it does the company will have learned from this fiasco and the poor individuals involved won't be saved. Everyone is happy that there were no redundancies, we can all cope with a bit less pay and those extra days off can be filled with hours of fruitless job hunting..

I genuinely hope that things turn around because I doubt any of us will ever work with a better group of individuals but a lot has to change, and it has to change very fast.

[TDK mk2]

Leg, are you quite sure no one will be able to figure out who you are? You seem to take a certain pleasure in your writings here, and I don't think folk will see you as just the 'messenger' whether or not your grim predictions come true.

[Prop-Ed]

As an interested observer of what is going on in the company, can someone spell out; what exactly is going on?

Leg called lots of redundancies to happen but it appears they haven't (or am i missing something?). Yet rather than admitting defeat, leg seems to continue to revel in his own crapulence and schadenfreude.

Can someone who is not a total :mad: provide some info please?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

What I gather from my mates at Flybe is that there were more people than expected who took the VSS making compulsory redundancies unnecessary. Also a 5% pay cut with a pro rata increase in days off/leave.

I believe that's the meat and veg of it although standing by to be corrected.

Edit, dunno if you think I'm a total :mad: though;)

[RAFAT]

So the management achieved the number of redundancies they needed AND got everyone to take a 5% pay cut! They really do have a knack of screwing over the workforce at Flybe it would seem! I wonder if the Directors handed back any of their recent 18% pay rise?

[JC25]

No, the 5% salary cut along with the number who took voluntary redundancy meant the cost savings required could be achieved. Without the salary deal, compulsory redundancies would have happened in addition to the voluntary ones.

Also, the 18% rise people bang on about was not a rise... It was an uplift that some got for promotions/additional responsibilities. Just like an FO gets when he achieves Capt. promotion.

[RHINO]

JC25....let me see if I have got this right.

I am a Board Director at Flybe and I could do with a little more in the bottom right hand corner each month. Difficult to justify when we need to get rid of people and if possible get them to work for less in their bottom right hand corner.

Ergo lets have a c#ck and bull story whilst we take what we can before moving on.....

Are you Flybe management by any chance???

[DrumMachine]

Also, the 18% rise people bang on about was not a rise...

And it was 2 years ago, since which the Directors (and all management), have had a pay freeze. There are also now fewer Directors, all of whom have agreed to an 8% pay reduction this year.

Not defending anyone, just stating the facts so a reasoned discussion can resume.

[VIRGA]

It's a maximum of 5% to be decided shortly when it is determined how many people take the VSS. It is a maximum apparently.

However one must also consider that 5% was the exact amount of the payrise that was fought for long and hard for alot of years. Further consideration must be taken with regard to the fact that the crews forwent a payrise last year 2012, which was supposedly meant to be 2% and part of the latest negotiations that took place to assure pilots would finally be tracking the rise in costs of living. This request of foregoing the 2% was from the company to BALPA. I believe there was meant to be further discussion of a payrise this year, 2013? Perhaps an employee could clarify this?

It seems to me that it is about time that management took a hit and should lead from the front for a change and earn some respect. I believe that >/ 7% over the last 2 years is more than enough especially when it will be so hard to claw it back again.

BALPA suggest that they have agreements with the company and profit clauses etc so that crews will be able to get the paygrade back again but only if profits or crews are hired. The money lost however is supposed to be an investment in the future of the airline under the guise of saving their colleagues from redundancy. It all sounds a bit dubious when you consider that the company are ruthless in these matters and no doubt would have found that the action they wanted to take was possibly going to attract costly legal attention and therefore could fail. So why not take the 5% to pay for the moving costs of their colleagues and the legal research that may have taken place during the delay of information that seemed to occur to these guys/gals.

[RAFAT]

DrumMachine - The 18% rise was in Q4 2012, not 2 years ago.

JC25 - Strangely enough, your comment about "promotions/additional responsibilities. Just like an FO gets when he achieves Capt. promotion." was the very line the Directors themselves used to justify the rise.

Looks like you were right RHINO!

[JC25]

RHINO & RAFAT... No I am not Flybe management at all, just a trained monkey, one of those who was officially "at risk" of redundancy but luckily escaped the cull.

However I can read and think sensibly and don't just believe the conspiracies and rubbish passed off as fact by many here and in crew rooms. Just because I try and be objective doesn't mean I'm the enemy.

The management at Flybe certainly have questions to answer and have a lot of work to do, but it does no-one any good to ignore facts and focus on rumour and rubbish.

Pardon me for trying to clarify what appeared to be a misunderstanding. God forbid we let facts get in the way of a good bi*ching session! I should have known better.

[RAFAT]

JC25 - No offense intended old chap, but given that you trotted out the very same line as the Directors it was easy to make the assumption. Sorry if I was wrong. :ok:

[turbine100]

Did any of the MPL hires get affected?

[RHINO]

JC25 you are right, PPRUNE is dreadful for 'facts'.

From the outside it seems to me FLYBE management have ended up with two bites of the cherry. You guys work for less (courtesy of BALPA) and they will still get rid of some folk as well.

Bizarrely I expect them to be recruiting within 6 months as lots of folk jump ship....

[flyingcamel]

Assuming there are places to jump to...

Don't get me started on the 18% nonsense. 'Restructuring', 'separating assets', and 'job creation for the boys' spring to mind.

[JB007]

BBC reporting FlyBe talking to a "number of parties" (rumoured to be easyJet although they failed to comment!) about the sale of its 25 LGW runway slots!

Shares rise +20% on the news...possible cash injection of £20m.

Does that just leave LTN as a route to the capital?!? (Londonish Luton)

[Love_joy]

I personally know people who were made compulsorily redundant

Edgar, I am sorry - but you are wrong. No one from flight deck has of yet been made compulsorily redundant.

It is true however, that some have 'jumped' before they were pushed. Some fairly begrudgingly I grant you, but then it was their choice.

The mass exodus that this has caused has in fact resulted in nearly desired headcount. A little more natural attrition, helped with a direct line to the desert and we may be recruiting in the near future.

Unless of course we sell our prized assets in Gatwick and render a handful of airframes surplus.... doh!?!

[turbowhat]

Well all slots in LGW have been sold(not sure if you can sell a slot, but they have transferred the movement pairs to easy for some £20M), what will this mean to crew numbers. People talk about the need to rehire, but a back of a stamp calculation means some 7 aircraft that need to be retasked; That's 56 more pilots at risk, Come early 2014.

Is this the company pulling up from its nosedive or the first part of the tail being ripped off?

[JC25]

The announcement issued but Flybe to the stock exchange that they do not expect any reduction in staff numbers as a result of the slot sale. That would indicate that they fully expect to redeploy the aircraft elsewhere and have quite a long time to work on this before the slot transfer takes place next March.

[flyingcamel]

I can't help but feel that we've given the goods away cheaply, to the first boy at the school disco that asked us to dance.

Daddy would not be impressed.

Surely we could have hawked our pigtails around and batted our eyelids at other well dressed and wealthy boys like Sir Richard, and countless Exotic Eastern gentlemen? It would have taken longer but I can't believe we wouldn't have achieved a better price for our 'prized asset.'

I feel a celebration is somewhat premature.

[VeroFlyer]

flydubai Application Form (http://flydubai.ctcaviation.com/)

Still recruiting...it's not too late!

[JobsaGoodun]

I can't help but feel that we've given the goods away cheaply, to the first boy at the school disco that asked us to dance.

The presentation in the Investors page of flybe.com indicates that non-disclosure agreements were signed with 5 interested parties so I think you can probably conclude that the best available deal was done.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

What's the plan once da management have stripped Flybe of all its assets?

I mean cut costs, sure, that'll help. What happens next year then? If management don't start actually managing instead of just cutting then the future isn't looking too rosy is it?

[JB007]

Full story on BBC Business pages, FlyBe reported a pre-tax loss of £40.7m for the year to 31 March, against a loss of £6.2m the year before.

So how much longer for this management team!?

[lfc84]

Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archive (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1306/21.htm)

just pay the tax...

and here's the report out today

http://www.flybe.com/corporate/pdf/FY13-Flybe-Group-Full-Year-Results-Presentation.pdf

sounds like they are going to target SOU after LGW

[JB007]

BBC reporting another 500 jobs to go! I guess to make another £45m savings in 2014-15 it was inevitable, but a return to just under £14m profit this year compared to the loss of last year.

Good luck to all!

[mad_jock]

I presume that means all the cadets are through training now.

[kick the tires]

cadets dont cost any money, permanent experienced pilots do!!

[cldrvr]

Flybe, the Exeter-based airline, has announced plans to cut 500 jobs across the business, despite reporting a return to profit.
Pre-tax profits were £13.8m for the six months to 30 September, compared with a loss of £1.6m a year earlier.
The company said its turnaround plan was on track to make £40m of savings this year and £45m in 2014-15.
But the pilot's union, Balpa, said it was "shocked" by the decision to cut jobs. Flybe employs 2,700 staff.
'Challenging times' Flybe chief executive Saad Hammad, who joined the company in August, told the BBC he could not say where the job losses would fall at this stage.
"We're consulting with unions and our staff," he said.
Flybe cut 490 jobs in 2012-13, with a further 100 going in the first half of 2013-14.
As part of the cost-cutting programme some routes could "possibly" go, Mr Hammad said. "These are challenging times," he added.
Group revenues rose to £351.1m in the six months, up from £340.8m in the same period last year.
The carrier now has 96 aircraft in its fleet, with 28 belonging to Flybe Finland, its joint venture with Finnish Air.
Passenger numbers increased 5.6% to 4.3 million in the first half of the year.


BBC News - Flybe to cut 500 jobs despite return to profit (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24895428)

[citabria06g]

Flybe Wings Part Sponsored Pilot Training (http://www.ctcwings.com/news/article/flybe_wings_new_part_sponsored_pilot_training_programme_laun ch)

"will provide selected pilots with a significant financial contribution towards the training costs and see graduates operating as First Officers on Flybe’s Q400 fleet by early 2014"

This was in May last year. I am absolutely astounded how airlines (not just Flybe) seem to be unable to plan a year in advance. I fear the same will happen to another major UK cadet scheme.

So what's going to happen to these guys/gals?

[Jwscud]

Previously Flybe have taken Cadets on as Cabin Crew with waits of up to a year for type ratings.

[RexBanner]

Presumably the laid off cabin crew wouldn't be too chuffed with that arrangement either! It's a sad situation at Flybe, gross mismanagement has led to the potential loss of livelihood for a lot of extremely capable and company minded people. Best wishes to all concerned.

[Jwscud]

Agreed, I really feel for them, especially as the Q400 and Ejet are not the most marketable type ratings around.

[mad_jock]

Exactly which is why you have to get them into the company before any compulsory redundancy's.

They can't fill someone's job who has been made redundant for a year afterwards without looking at a lengthy and expensive court case.

If there in before things can be giggled to keep the cheap option.

[Agaricus bisporus]

So what's going to happen to these guys/gals?

Let's hope they didn't sign up for training loans or anything else that they are personally liable for. If they did they'll have a heavy debt to carry. Caveat emptor/:mad: happens.

As ever there'll be a lot of gnashing of teeth but they'll find jobs eventually, just as many thousands of redundant pilots have done before them. It often isn't pleasant but they'll get over it and they certainly have all our sympathy.

The lesson to learn, of course, is the importance of not signing up to personal training debts that remain in the event of redundancy, or to accept the risk if you do.

Let's hope there aren't too many pilots involved.

[truckflyer]

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't it be the last pilots who got employed who will be shown the door? I mean if cadets have just recently been employed, would not they be the first to leave?

[Narrow Runway]

Seniority (last in, first out) cannot be used any longer as the sole decision mechanism in redundancy scenarios.

It can be used as part of (it can be the major part) a solution that can include:

Disciplinary record, attendance record, sickness record - and others.

[Skyjob]

Maybe I don't understand enough of the policies involved making money with an airline... :8

There seems to be an abundance of aircraft in the company, enough staff to fly them all, plenty of destinations that can handle them, all located in areas with plenty of willing pax to travel...

But most of their planes seem to sit on the apron most of the time even in summer, the crews are complaining they're not working enough hours, and always required to be augmented by those out of base, and spend more time on Airport Standby then On Duty actually to fly for a living. Those that do fly think it is ludicrous to 'only' fly 2 short flights <1 hour each way, which does seem a bit short for a day's work and seems a blatant disregards of resources.

Surely with a bit of imagination these parked aircraft can take to the skies again, as all is in place for them to do so, with fare paying pax to places of interest or offering a way for them to commute home. Not all pax want to fly domestic or Irish/French routes... :ok:

Instead we are hearing of retiring aircraft, reducing staff numbers, ... :confused:

[mad_jock]

It doesn't have to be last in first out any more.

The company can generate its own criteria which if it doesn't breach any discrimination laws can be used. 'Seniority can be in the criteria if a partial reduction in a base occurs.

But there is nothing stopping them closing a base and everyone from that base being made redundant with years and years of seniority. Where as 80 miles down the road there is new base crewed by new joins. They don't have to chuck out the new joins and transfer the closing base crew to that base.

Then of course 1 year later establishing the base as a crew base again.

[mad_jock]

Let's hope they didn't sign up for training loans or anything else that they are personally liable for. If they did they'll have a heavy debt to carry. Caveat emptor/:mad: happens.

Of course they did, there family capital will be up as security.

But the fact is they will be able to fly 2 cadets for the same price as one senior FO who is out of bond including all the associated yearly training costs.

So to be honest I think they will be pretty safe as they will have been based somewhere which won't be in the firing line for cuts. When the cuts go through the base will be safe but no room for transfers. So the more expensive pilot will be made redundant.

[truckflyer]

So seniority does not count for anything?

I guess loyalty either way now, should have little or no meaning.

[The Ancient Geek]

We need to see this in context, it is not a redundancy announcement, it is an annual financial report to shareholders. The company is required by law to divulge any information which may affect its share price.

What we see is a company telling shareholders that the company is in the process of turning a loss making disaster into someting worth investing in. They are no longer pouring shareholders money into a big black hole and have managed to make a small profit but times are tough.

They are getting more bums on seats as the general economy improves but they are still suffering from overcapacity and some routes are still making a loss. This means that they may need to reduce capacity and cut some routes in order to sustain their improvement.

Nothing has yet been decided but shareholders are being warned that there are still tough times ahead and management has the matter in hand.

Small regional airlines everywhere have always been, at best, marginal operations and in this case it appears that they tried to grow too fast.
It is not easy to get it right, aircraft have to be ordered years in advance and by the time they arrived the recession had taken a big bite out of demand.

Only time will tell what actually happens but some capacity reduction looks inevitable.

Watch this space.

[mad_jock]

Not legally.

And why would an accountant care anyway. They just see numbers, they have groups of pilots which cost 40-60% than another group of pilots.

They will treat it exactly the same as a hardware decision. Do we keep an old girl airframe flying or do we get rid of it and keep the cheaper airframe.

And its a bit more than just a share holders announcement. I have started getting texts asking how much it would be to get an old rating on my type back, because they recon 100 pilots are going and they are in the firing line due to their base being top heavy in senior captains.

[Fly-Boi-1992]

The share price has been doing some weird and wonderful things...

https://www.google.co.uk/finance?q=LON:FLYB&sa=X&ei=5NGAUvjAE8KshQf21oCYCg&ved=0CC4Q2AEwAA#

[V12]

Skyjob: the answer lies on slides 23-26 of the BE city report:

http://www.flybe.com/corporate/pdf/FY14-Flybe-Group-plc-Half-year-results-presentation-Final.pdf

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Why is crew productivity so low or is there some smoke and mirrors going on, lies lies and dam statistics :\

[kick the tires]

89/168 routes unprofitable and pilots flying 374 hours a year (2011), no wonder they are against the ropes.

But that was 2 years ago, what are the annual hours for 2013?

[Homer_J]

An interesting presentation

[Skyjob]

V12 Thanks, I was right about utilization then...
Shame...

Just work the air-frame a bit harder, as you've got enough crew (least hours annual in the industry) to increase hours per crew on aircraft and it seems an easy calculation...

Then no job losses, more revenue making flights, more crew and aircraft efficiency and more choice for pax who then want to fly more as there is more choice!

[CheekyVisual]

Not quite as simple as that. You can't simply compare an average fly be pilot on 400 ish hpa with an average fr/esy pilot doing 800 ish hpa and say the problem is productivity. They are not really doing the same job. Most fly be sectors probably average out at 0.55 to 1.30 ish. Ok I know they do some longer stuff but a lot of it is domestic around an hour stuff. Where as easy / Ryan will average 1.30 to 2.30 per sector with some canaries flights thrown in as well. Ok I know there is the odd dub floating around but looking at averages.

As most airlines do 4 sector days you can see even working flat out fly be crews will be building up less hours simply due to the type of flights they operate. You need to look at the number of duties they do than hours they fly to really judge productivity. So saying just get the crews working harder is easier said than done. Even if you moved to say six sector days I very much doubt there is enough extra business in the fly be sector to make it cost effective.

[FlyingTinCans]

To say the pilots are not productive is an insult to many at Flybe.
Granted I left 2 years ago but when I was there on the Dash at my Base I was on the limits of what the CAA would allow as a roster.
The problem is that apart from the 3 or 4 'big' bases, the rest are working far, far less and from talking to old friends and collegues that still hasnt changed. And while I wish nothing but the best for the pilots and cabin crew, it would seem that a new CEO has finally woken up to this, and from the 500 positions to go I think a fair chunk will be crew members.

Not the fault of the pilots at all, guys/girls at the 'less productive' bases would happily fly more, but inept managment and planning has led them all into this sad situation

[Chancey Liz]

Any ideas where to look for a new job?

Suggestions please for type rated pilots on the E190/170 and DHC8-400!!

Thanks all!

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Any ideas where to look for a new job?

Suggestions please for type rated pilots on the E190/170 and DHC8-400!!

Thanks all!

flydubai???

[FlyingTinCans]

flydubai is a good place for flybe guys/girls to go, I can speak from experiance!

However im told that courses for non-type rated pilots are at the moment full up until beyond summer 2014

[JB007]

I'm afraid incredibly poor management and poor people management is what this generation of so called executives are all about...it's all I've witnessed since been made redundant in 2010 for one of the UK's best airlines. The depth of experience is very bad, most relying on whatever Squadron life has taught them.

To live and work in the UK now as a pilot requires considerable compromises! Pay, basing, commuting, lifestyle. Best of luck to all you guys with these FlyBe ratings.

[RexBanner]

Speaking as someone who went through the first round of this back in January-May of this year I can only applaud the utter good grace and professionalism of my colleagues to carry on coming into work giving it their all whilst their world was falling apart around them. These people will have spent virtually the entirety of 2013 working with their jobs under threat. They are not to blame for the mess this airline is in and yet are carrying the can. I've said it before but best of luck to all my friends and former colleagues. To say they deserve better is this year's biggest understatement.

[Jenson Button]

If it interests you, try Skymark or Air Japan. Might not be everyone's cup of tea but there are jobs and you don't have to pay for a type rating. Not as hot as the desert or worked as hard. Would suit the jungle jet folk only though, sorry and good luck to the dash8 people. Yes it might be contract but it is stable(as much as it can be).

[skysod]

Not sure if it's still on offer, but SunExpress in Turkey were recently advertising specifically for Q400 captains for direct entry command on to B737-800.....might still be worth a try!......good luck to all!!

[BAe 146-100]

So what exactly is going on at flybe, redundancies with cadets replacing them or what? Or has nothing been decided about the cadets who have just finished up at Jerez and waiting for an answer.

[speedrestriction]

Positions rather than people are made redundant. There are statutory regulations which prevent companies from making positions redundant and then re-hiring new staff to fill the same positions. It can't happen unless the individuals being let go sign a disclaimer surrendering their rights (usually for an enhanced severance package).

[FlyVeryHigh-]

6 are just finishing up at CTC as well!