Canadian Troops killed by US bomb.

[Doctor Cruces]

How come every time we go to war lately with the Americans they bomb or fire Mavericks at our side?

How come the Canadians, Brits, French etc don't? (or at least don't make the news)

Not Yank bashing just curious.

Is there something in the respective training regimes? Is it skewed news reporting? If we get into a REALLY big punch up will we lose more of our side to our "friends" than our enemies? What can be done to prevent so called "friendly fire" casualties.

Doc C.

[SpinSpinSugar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1936000/1936589.stm

-------------------------------------------

A US fighter plane in Afghanistan has accidentally bombed a group of Canadian troops, killing four soldiers and injuring eight others.

The incident, which occurred during a routine training exercise, happened near the southern city of Kandahar, 14 kilometres (eight miles) from the airport.

Clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered

The soldiers are the first Canadians to be killed in the US-led campaign against Taleban and al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.

Two of those injured have life-threatening wounds and correspondents say it is the worst accidental bombing of the six-month Afghan campaign.

Canadian officials said their troops were engaged in what they described as live-fire training exercise, when an American F-16 plane dropped one or two 500-pound (225 kg) bombs on them.

Canada's defence chief Lieutenant General Ray Henault said the area was recognised as a training area and the aircraft were using strictly controlled routes.

"How this can happen is a mystery to us. Without a doubt there was a misidentification," he told reporters

The Canadian Prime Minister, Jean Chretien, said US President George Bush had called to offer condolences and pledged to co-operate with the Canadian investigation into the incident.

"As to the circumstances of what appears to have been a terrible accident, clearly there are many questions that the families, and all Canadians, expect to have answered," he said in a statement.

Reporting from the British Royal Marine's base in Bagram, the BBC's Jonathan Charles says one question which will be asked is whether the American Air National Guard should be operating in Afghanistan.

He says the pilots are reservists who generally fly civilian planes and are called up for service when required.

British marines are conducting operations in the mountains of the south-east of the country and are being given US air support for their missions - the latest "friendly fire" incident is likely to raise new safety concerns among them.

These are the first Canadian deaths in a military campaign since the Korean War in the early 1950s.

More than 700 Canadian soldiers are deployed in Afghanistan and are operating out of Kandahar.

On Monday, four American soldiers were killed while blowing up unexploded rockets, also near Kandahar.

[WeatherJinx]

It does seem to happen a lot doesn't it? However, it would be good to have a sensible debate about this phenomenon, without, as the good Doctor Cruces put it, unnecessary 'Yank Bashing'. My heartfelt sympathy to the Canadian personnel and their families.

WxJx

PS wouldn't it be nice if someone could think of a more precise term than 'Friendly Fire', which reeks of insincere PR cynicism? I think the Americans do themselves little credit by inventing and using weasel words such as these.

[Flap62]

Having worked with the USAF on many occasions over the years I am sadly not surprised when incidents like this happen. Part of the reason may be that American forces just have too much live ordnance in their training. As a result I think that they lose a little of the respect that is essential in handling live, extremely destructive weaponry. I certainly know that UK forces have such limited access to live weapons that when you get one, all contingencies are briefed to death and before you press that button you make damned sure you know that the site is on the target. In my experience in working with the US military it is often the case that it's "just another standard mission, only 4X Mk82, good job, outstanding".

[jimgriff]

My Dad told a story that goes back to the Italian Campaign WW2:

When the Brits bombed- Jerry took cover
When Jerry bombed- the allies took cover
When the yanks bombed- Everyone took cover!

And he wasn't joking!!

[chapman1]

In their defence, the US has in recent times contributed the overwelming majority of airpower to allied campaigns, and therefore, when accidents happen (as they always do) it is statistically always more likely to be from one of their pylons.

I'm sure, as stated, there are other reasons why people claim the USAF stands for Usually Shoots At Friendlies.

[Iron City]

This particular sad event has not made a big splash so far in media here, so far as I know. Condolences to the families and mates of all concerned.

As has been stated in a previous post "Friendly Fire" isn't and there should be a better name for it.

In past unfortunate experience the USAF has had a number of, for no better term, Friendly Fire incidents ... several US special operations people and locals were killed earlier in this little "police action". Since they drop the bulk of the tonnage maybe they have more opportunity to mess up. I do know that when U.S. ground pounders call in air they love to have Marines, they like having Navy. They take USAF if that is what is available. If the PPRUNE report is correct in it's particulars and F-16s were involved in fairness to the aircrew involved , who probably feel terrible about it, the F-16 has been modded and ECP'd to get to a half decent air/ground capability that wasn't designed in from the start.

[owe ver chute]

There is no such thing as "friendly fire", cos it is all very unfriendly!:(
According to CNN, the Air National Guard F16 had requested permission to drop bombs on ground targets, but was refused, he then acted in "self defence" when he dropped two 500lb bombs.
I feel for the crew of the F16, who no doubt will be overcome with sorrow (one would hope so anyway), however the next of kin of the soldiers involved will feature in alot of prayers for a while and deserve an answer to establish why this un-necessary accident happened.
The USAF does have a poor record when it comes to fratricide, (my rough calculations), I believe the USAF killed more British troops in the 91 gulf war than any other single act!
I find it hard to believe that the number of live munitions that they use plays any part in these accidents, simply to train for war using weapons of war is good training and should prevent nerves creeping onto the master arm switch!
One thing is for sure, the "Sky gods" who so often help ground troops should sample life in the trenches or on the battle field and maybe then, they will exercise caution when dropping bombs in questionable circumstances.
The Amercans do drop more bombs than anyone else, but can anybody recall another nation having any such accidents? Did the RAF in the 82 Falklands war?
A sad day for all involved!

[Talking Radalt]

"To err is human; to forgive, divine."
-Alexander Pope,

Condolences to all.:(

[Chimbu chuckles]

I just finished reading a very good book on the D-Day landings in 1944. 100s of Allied troops died that day from 'friendly fire', many from short rounds from ships off shore.

In every war there are casualties from FF, perhaps the US kill more because they are always in a position of delivering the majority of the ordinance.

The only thing new about these sorts of mistakes is the advent of CNN......and therefor public awareness.

It's sad but I would suggest it is just one more aspect of warfare that, pre Vietnam War, the public never knew about.

All the platitudes from the generals and pollies, the 'investigations' etc are, imho, just window dressing on a problem that will never go away while ever wars exist.

Chuck

[newswatcher]

There are several news references to the pilot believing that he was under fire from the ground. How exactly would he know this? With modern technology, is it not possible to "know" rather than "believe"? There are also suggestions that they may not have been aware of the live firing exercise in which the Canadian forces were involved!
:confused:

[newswatcher]

owe ver chute,

during the Falklands War there were at least two instances of "friendly fire". One was between the SAS and SBS - one SBS killed, and the other when a Gazelle was shot down by Navy missile - 4 killed. Given none involved RAF.

[DB_TWR]

Having worked with the USAF on many occasions over the years I am sadly not surprised when incidents like this happen

Having served in Bosnia (Norw. Army) alongside US army peacekeepers, I'm not surprised.
There was a incident when AH-64's engaged other SFOR troops (fench i think) during a live fire ex. on a "bush" range, none was injured, thanx to poor targeting by the US pilots. (The AH-64's was not in the exercise, they just overflew the range)

"Oh- a man with a gun, bullets flying, not in US uniform, lets fire on him"

They know where their own are, but not anyone else

[X-QUORK]

Yawn.

Just another Yank bashing thread.

Seems clear to me that if a country provides 90% of the forces it will have 90% of the "friendly fire" incidents.

[SixOfTheBest]

Gentlemen,

My condolences to the families of the victims. Why is it that when something like this happens, everyone jumps on the 'Yank-bashing-they-are-so-gash' wagon. It's pathetic! Never forget, that we all rely on the US to take the initiative on any campaign, after which we merrily lot-in to look good for the press. As for their standard of training.....I defy any other nation to suggest that they have their proverbial Sh*t sorted more than the Yanks. Accidents happen. Who knows what the thought process that led to this tragic incident was? Was it a case of 'different-nations-different NOTAM-system? What exactly was said on the radios? The simple answer is WE DON'T KNOW YET! Stop jumping on the band wagon. Flaps, i'm ashamed of you. You obviously haven't trained with the Yanks much. Once again, regrets to the families.

[Flap62]

Not Yank bashing - more like fact. Seems that they provide 90% of air-power and 100% of blue on blue. Without giving it too much thought I can think of N. Iraq Blackhawk shoot-down,gulf Aegis on Iranian airbus, Kosovo F16 LGB attack on civvie convoy, Kuwai F18 on ground FAC, gulf war A10 on Warror and now this. Can't remember too many other nations having such a track record (not to say there haven't been the occasional 1 or 2 though).

Quite often their attitude can be summed up by the following tale:

Situation: Inbrief to new crews at Op Provide Comfort (Incirlic to Iraq). Welcomes from commanding US general and Brit Detco followed by lengthy capabilities, ROE and tactics briefs by the various AD assets, muds, jammers, AWACS et al. Final player to brief is the US National Guard Wild Weasel Detco who stood up, said:

"You guys go in there and if they light up we're gonna kill them b***ards"

and sat back down again. 10 out of 10 for the John Wayne impression but 0 out of 10 for professionalism. The attitude of most of the US forces (and even though they were great guys, the guard were the worst) was that they were desperate to drop something before they went home. Most of the Brits and French wanted to go home with no dramas thank you very much.

[Nostradamus]

FLAP 62



look at the thread on jet blast.

[owe ver chute]

I can't see how any of the reply's on this thread can be mis-construed as "yank bashing"!
Most people who come into contact with other nationals, will form an opinion of that persons nation. Rightly or wrongly, its human nature I'm affraid.
While it is fair to say that none of the in-depth facts about this tragic accident have been released, only one person was sat in the cockpit of the F16 and he alone truly knows what his thought process was at the crucial moment, that person was from the USAF, albeit Nationa Guard.
Maybe a common link between the aircraft types involved in these "blue on blue" incidents, they are mostly single seat! Personality types who typically get streamed into these types are less likely to ask "what if", more like "so what", add to this the lack of a weapons officer and its no wonder that these incidents happen from time to time.
This is not yank bashin, it's "jet jocky bashin" in broad terms!

[Flatus Veteranus]

The worst blue-on-blue I ever heard about, and it was well hushed-up at the time, was the FAA Wyvern strike on a mosque during the Suez affair. The mosque was well the wrong side of the bomb-line, but the HQ insisted and the Wyverns eventually yielded to its blandishments. Unfortunately the mosque was occupied by the RM.:(

[trolleydollylover]

This whole thing is turning out like the sequal to Catch 22.
My thoughts go out to the families at this time.
I think the Canadian reply was more than adequate and very dignified in getting the message across.
There will never be an end to Blue on Blue, however the pointers are all there, if the cap fits wear it.

[Azure]

Yes, we lost four, and how many has America lost to friendly fire? Sh$# happens, mistakes are made. Similar to aircraft accidents, I hope that both governments pick apart what when wrong, and fix it. Communication between all levels of forces seems to be a problem, heck I can log onto pprune, tell someone off, and get a reply faster than the speed of light (not that I've ever tried that myself,) but I've seen it! Communication is so simple in this new age. Why is it lacking in our military?

[usernothername]

Does anyone know the detail of the Kosovo attack on the refugee convoy. I recall some bar room chat by those close to the action but can't recall the detail. I think RAF were on the scene but backed off. It would be interesting to hear some info as this incident seems to have some parallels to the subject. Were the lessons learned and acted on?

[Flap62]

Won't go into too much detail but you're broadly correct. Brit Harriers were called onto a target but wern't happy that they could identify the target as hostile and so decline to drop. Cue USAF F16's, death reigns from the sky for those dastardly peasants and their awesomely capable donkey carts.

[lucky_b*]

There's no doubt that accidents like this will always happen, the only way to reduce them and that is with prior planning and awareness of where the problems arise. Let me tell you a story, pull up a sandbag and make yourself comfortable!!

Whilst flying in the Arabian Sea, before the Gulf war so it was a while ago! We heard on Guard the Omani AD guy call up an unidentified aircraft that was approaching Omani airspace. No answer, so he called again! Still no answer, eventually giving the unidentified aircraft's height, heading, and position. The aircraft responded, it was an American C-141. The controller asked why they didn't identify themselves the correct distance from the ADIZ, they replied that they didn't know! The controller pointed out it was in the ERS, and the aircraft replied, asking how long that rule had been in place. The controller said since the foundation of the Sultanate of Oman!!!:eek:

Oh! He also told the aircraft to follow the Jag that had been sitting on his wingtip for 20 mins to the nearest airfield!!

[bigdog1971]

:eek: I heard some more on this subject this morning, can "this is rumour only" any one confirm? A Awacs plane was in the area at the time and the pilot of the said aircraft was told 3 times that he was not to engage!!

[BEagle]

Trailing some Tornadoes back from Saudi some years after the First Gulf War had finished, we heard Uncle Spam on Guard calling 'unidentified ac at position blah, identify yourselves'. We did so and were told 'This is R** C****, you are clear to proceed'. Well - pardon us for flying in international airspace with a properly filed flight plan, but what the hell has it got to do with you, Yank? You might be bobbing up and down on the briney in your big grey boat, but it's NOT your country! Anyway - just replied "You are absolutely right, we are indeed going to proceed on our flight plan and thank you for your interest. Good bye"

I am getting increasingly concerned at the risks everyone's going to be facing if George Dubya continues to blunder about the World using any possible excuse to bully people he doesn't like on the grounds of **** and at the way our New Labour poodle is behaving........

[MilOps]

Probably a tad off the main topic, but definately in keeping with the current theme, a gem to share with you all. The resident USAF Wg Hq where I am presently lurking regularly pushes out ammendments to its FCIFs, and proudly emblazoned at the foot of the page is the following:
"Global Power For America".....................hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Pilot 'broke rules' in bomb blunder
By David Rennie
(Filed: 20/06/2002)


An American pilot with the call sign "Psycho", who killed four Canadian soldiers when he dropped a 500-lb bomb on them on a training exercise in Afghanistan, ignored proper procedures, investigators have found.

The pilot, identified as Major Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard, is likely to face criminal charges, a senior defence official told the Washington Post.

An eight-week preliminary investigation has found that Maj Schmidt, a former naval air ace, rushed into an attack after seeing flashes of small arms fire, instead of leaving the scene to assess the threat and before a radar aircraft could identify the forces as Canadian.

Canadian commanders had notified US forces of the exercise, which was taking place at night in a designated training area.

The incident, the first in which Canadian soldiers have been killed in a combat zone since the Korean War, caused deep anger in Canada after President George W Bush took a day to apologise for it.

Further anger was stoked by the striking disinterest displayed by American media after the incident.

[canberra]

did anyone see the documentary on bbc2 on the battle of monte cassino? basically the usaaf as it then was decide to mount a bombing raid a day early, only problem was they neglected to tell troops on ground. i also read a small article on this in todays telegraph, pilot was illlinois ang ex usn callsign psycho(and i thought the spams didnt understand irony) and it also said he may face criminal charges, i think they mean courts martial. the canadians killed were the canadians first combat deaths since korea.

[Devildawg]

I can asure you all, the Royal Marines deployed in Afghanistan at the moment are far happier having US air on call than than the alternative supplied by UK PLC - nothing, as usual.

[Fox3snapshot]

Flap 62..you are a legend

I have bitten my tongue through this thread but now that I have lost four pints of blood I think its worth saying something.

I am Ex Somalia...yes "Blackhawk Down" vintage, ex military (obviously) and now working the Afghan operation from an "Arabian" location, but not American.

I will not go too far with this just yet, but having witnessed, logged and officially monitered reports of an average of 2 incidents a week involving US forces (typically USN/USAF, US National Guard and reserve elements) in the Afghan operation and I have to say that its a nice theory "we are supplying 90% of the assets therefore statistically it is inevitable that the US assets will be involved in more incidents" .....this logic is absolute tripe.

The incidents we have almost on a daily basis with the US assets are serious (life threatening in a number of cases) and yet stem from the most basic and fundamental avaition errors that come about through pure arrogance and naivity to international conventions and operations.

When you are ready to take me to task on this issue have your facts ready, as only last night a US KC135 under civil radar control returning from the tactical area missed a USN Hawkey (ironically the eyes of the fleet, and not in contact with the US operational controllers of the adjacent tactical entry point for the Afghan operation) by less than seeing eye distance. This is military on miltary and who cares you might say, more concerning is the Diego Garcia (Bomber and Refueller) recoveries who cross all civil airways at 90 degrees out, non- standard levels and not talking to any civil or respectable military agencies and who have averaged an air miss with civil traffic every 2 and a half days or so. Any regular operator through the busy middle eastern air space will be familiar with this situation.....

Looking forward to taking people to who want to take me to task on this issue and if the responses are only concerned with my spelling errors forget it I know I am bad at engrish.

"Traffic...1 O'clock, 3 miles, tracking left to right, same level.....no threat."

:p :confused:

[KPax]

I think some of you are getting carried away with yourselves out there. I have recently spent some time in the company of certain US Air Recce people, who showed me an internal report on one of the first incidents of this campaign. I showed that the FAC who called for the 'Strike' had a battery failure on his GPS just as he was calling for the strike. Once he had changed batteries he did not realise that the GPS reset to his position rather than the last one in the memory, and called the strike down on himself. The points thast were raise were that there are several levels of experience with these guys, the best being the equivelant of our best, but the further down the chain you go the less impressive the people are. Secodly there are a lot of 'Agencies' operating out here with people that very few people know about. The report stated that 'accidents' will happen in this kind of scenario. Perhaps people should think of the operating conditions of these people and ask themselves could they do the job. I for one am glad of Uncle Sam's forces helping us out.