New Raf Ops O Post

[DuckDogers]

Its time for the big one! At last RAF Ops O's have a decent OOA! Muharraq, Bahrain. Cushy appartment, extra dosh. Finally......we too can live the dream!

[MilOps]

Oi duck Rogers, don't give the game away or you'll have them all wanting a bit. However you can't go where I am at the mo, Occifers not allowed, you're not good enough........................up the mighty shaguar! ps. is that you MB?

[DuckDogers]

Well, Well, Well i wonder who this could be?? it's either 6 or 41(F) out there at the moment so having a wild stab in the dark that must be TI or DC. I'm going for the first one at a guess. Hows sunny OSW(N)?

As for not good enough we're running 3 Ops............

[MilOps]

wrong on both counts, and as for running three ops, lucky old you, however not may aeroplanes really is it?. Like I say RAF OpsO's are not good enough to work on sqns, lack the experience and cred, leave it to the professionals.. the mighty FOM.........baaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[APOLLO]

Mil

Obviously banter because you both know each other but at the end of the day there's not a lot to do on your average FJ Sqn is there! Apart from admin, triv, an over-employed plotter of NOTAMS and not forgetting the most important thing, stats.

Don't get me wrong, many OpsO's are somewhat short on the cred side and i believe the course is laughable at best. As with everything time is needed. Of course the branch is very political in its very creation, but as the saying goes don't tar everyone with the same brush!

-------------------------------

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."

[FOMere2eternity]

I haven't got the tar out Apollo, but have had a couple of bad experiences. Two I met (one after the other in post) were more interested in the joys of being an officer than the nitty-gritty of, god forbid, making decisions !

I also believe that 1 person was chopped from the FOTS course once - you can only imagine how bad he was ! - didn't he get up in the morning ?

Provided the chaps are willing to listen and, dare I say it, show us a little respect, I'll certainly help em out. I was a little narked they wouldn't let me do it too - but that's a failing in OASC and, of course, my preparation to answer the dumb questions they come up with. (OASC, not JO's !)

Looking back now, I'm almost relieved I wasn't selected - I just have trouble sometimes when I see the one's they did select !
I put it down to them having a better memory for what they spent their teenage pocket money on and ability to rescue stranded hikers with a landrover with 8hrs fuel that can only travel at 32mph, nightly flooding roads, bandits who operate 8-5 and swampy areas Jul-Aug (selection interview and tests) !

If that runs Ops rooms, I haven't been watching all these years !

[APOLLO]

FOM

The very one you are on about, mentioning no names but is a bloke, is now at RAF Lyneham following a some what 'no-cred' tour at Lossiemouth. The story goes along the lines that he got chopped, did not like the decision so put in a little protest. Legal action was in there as well i believe, so at the end of the day the decision was reveresed and he passed the course and went to the WOC at Lossie.

Politics is a beast that is best avoided. My theory on the branch, it's individuals that are good or bad, each given his/her own talents and with theses they'll react to a situation and other persons.

The bad side though i hear is a former ATC officer who did 2 years as a controller did not want to control to branch changed. A year and a half as an OpsO and promotion to Sqn Ldr and posted to CAOC 9 into a job that DOES NEED aircrew experience!!!!!

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"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."

[FOMere2eternity]

Haven't had the joys of meeting the Lossie bloke, but he'll have to cut the mustard at LYE or the truckies will get mad :rolleyes:

The other 2 I met liked executive lunches and salutes, but tried to avoid aircraft and crews asking awkward questions. One was and ex-bloke (by that I mean JR - gotta be careful nowadays !) who was told he wasn't going anywhere, the other one was probably born in a manor where 'people' just did things like the job for them.

I agree that a lot of it is about personalities, but the sausage factory has gotta stop brainwashing JO's too. There are still quite a few listen too intently at IOT and take it all on board !

I believe that the FOTs course should have actually been TOO selective to begin with, so they ended up with the right people - they're out there, but we have quite a few numpties to contend with too. Hey - makes my job interesting !

As for the other branches moving in - I think they perceive it as easy money and promotion - unfortunately, right now, it is !
:(

[MilOps]

APOLLO
You're right we probably do know each other, hence the banter, however I feel you oversimplify the role of an FOM on an FJ Sqn. Quite clearly you have no real knowledge of the job or what we do, I suggest you spend a day in a single seat FJ sqn ops room and see what goes on, you will, I am confident, review your attitude. Moreover who do you think is responsible for the deployment packups et al, the running of the ops/planning room? I am sure that my OCB and Exec will disagree with you and cite OPEVAL and the numerous deployments we are involved in as examples of the importance of our role. However I will concede that the job can be dull and that working with aircrew who like to do everything for themselves makes for an unfulfilling and frustrating existence, hence my intention to leave at 22 yrs. But I stand by what I said in that FOO's are underqualified to do the job, and frankly are not good enough. I too have endured the incompetance of these people and have been flabbergasted at their ineptitude and arrogance, people with zero understanding of aircraft operations, airspace management and structure, CFMU/IFPS etc in command of vastly experienced individuals with 20 years service in this field. Little wonder that people are becoming weary and that the credibility of the FOO branch is now in tatters. I commend you to read TOTES and witness the unerdulterated drivel that permeates through its pages to appreciate the low self esteem they have of themselves and how, by crowing about their trivial exploits, they can justify their existence. I too can also point an accusing finger at the few individuals I have encountered in the past who barely got through the FOTS course and then went on to wreak havoc later, they all seem to end up at HQSTC or 2Gp, maybe it's so they can be watched and kept out of harms way. Finally, what IS worrying is that there are a few in their ranks who believe that there is a rosy future ahead. The most laughable is that some believe that FOOs will be in the back of ASTOR because of a lack of qualified WSOs/WSOPs...............

[DuckDogers]

Mil (aka ALH?)

Well you know my views on the branch all too well! Couldn't really comment but you are definitely right all the numties end up in 2Gp in one form or another or at HQSTC! Oh well only 3months to go, well thats about ..................well quite alot of cash in rates!

Take care mate anmd i'll give u a RAAF update soon. I resume you are in Incirlik at the mo??

cheers

MB (aka DD)

[MilOps]

DD, hello matey,
Yeah I know your views very well and it's a shame the small number of good guys are being dragged down by the dross, ho hum. You know that my comments are not bile but based on fact, and as the other guys have commented, brush and tar etc, however it's very difficult not to generalise at present.

How did Oz go? Get to hear what you wanted, I hope so.
I've had a good scan of the RAAF web site, no mention of Ops there, do they have such a beast do you know? I heard rumours that they were thinking of starting an Ops Branch.
Got one week to go then Gozzome. Start planning for the next big push when we RTB.

So hows MUH, plenty of lithe ladies to keep your mind off the job I hope you lucky lad! How are the workers, keeping you on yer toes I sincerely hope, give them my regards.

MO

[FOMere2eternity]

Hi 04
Interesting that you're swimming against the flow from BA, but equally if you've got your head screwed on there's lots of scope to get on (and, right now, even if you haven't....sadly !)

The most promising thing you said was the last comment - would appreciate any help - and that will get results from the FOMs (Flight Ops Managers) who are the enlisted senior NCO's.
That said, beware of the bitter ones !!

In very short summary, the branch provides a link between ATC, the crews and many other agencies, from the Int people, taskers, engineers etc. A similar job would be the BA Ops team.
The FOTS course lasts about 10 ? weeks or so and gives you a basic grounding in Ops type stuff, but much of it you probably won't use in any capacity. Your first post will be as a junior ops officer, perhaps a computer system manager, or a squadron ops officer, although you could get thrown literally anywhere - tasking, Int, flight safety officer - the field is very broad.

The biggest problem with the branch right now is it's fairly new, so where a crusty old pilot once sat and calmly read papers, now a fresh-faced junior officer enters with no flying experience. Working with 'the chaps' for a few years builds that experience, but you haven't got that luxury. Credibility is a snag right now for the whole branch for that very reason.

In your shoes, my advice would be, pass the course (because failure is unheard of !!), and when you get to your new post, say very little for the first couple of weeks. Watch the people who cut the mustard and note those who only claim to ! After a couple of weeks, latch on to 'Bloggs' who you rate and try and wrangle it so you're in charge of his watch. (by Bloggs I suggest either an experienced corporal, sergeant or, in rare circumstances another officer !)

Don't be afraid to learn the 'airman's stuff' before trying to command them - I'm not suggesting you go on to do it everyday, but at least be capable of doing it once. Other than that, keep your ears open every day and your experience will grow.

Finally, try and avoid the 'secondary duty' ratrace for a few months whilst you concentrate on the job - a bunch of FOO's I dealt with recently were great at organising hockey teams and barbecues, but crap at the real stuff !!

Hope this helps - don't know your background so this may sound very noddy. If you have any questions, feel free to fire away.:)

[DH98]

Hmm, why Flt Ops?

I would thoroughly recommend that you dispense with the brochure showing Flt Lt Miggins sitting in Ops at Goose Bay and rethink this one.

The job is less than 5 years old and fighting for cred. The RAF is instutionalised and slow to embrace change. The pilot is King. Therefore you will ALWAYS find youself in situations where doors will be closed because you're not, and never were aircrew.
Ops is an aviation related position, and as such deserves the recognition accordingly, after all without it the whole process will very quickely dry up. therefore it is particularly irksome to be constantly undermined by people with a dead budgie on their chest.

I you refer to APOLLOs post, above,regarding an undividual being posted to a job where it was felt that it was an aircrew job. Utter hoop, if people are given the correct training and opportunites what's yer problem! Says a lot about the RAFs attitude to Equal Opportunities and valuing individuals contributions etc.

The brighter members of the fraternity see this and complain that the job is unfullfilling, with no sense of purpose and very poor job satisfaction. On many units FOOs are under employed so they end up carrying out the secondary duties that nobody else wants to do, filling their time with writing visiting instructions, dealing with flying complaints and so on.

There is also the added problem that the flight operations managers, FOM (SNCOs) and flight operations assistants,FOA (Airmen) come under the ATC Branch for training, career issues etc, and have actually had a far more useful initial training than their commissioned counterparts and are employed in a far more diverse environment, from ATC towers to Sqn Ops, to Stn Ops and so on. At present the FOTS course doesn't adequately cover aircraft ops areas, seriously undermining their credibility, in fact there is nothing an OpsO can do that a Cpl couldn't do, and in fact does routinely. The on the job training that should exist at unit level is non existant, due in the main to idleness and the ridiculously short tours these poor people have to endure, which results in a disproportionate reliance on the SNCOs to provide the training. This further weakens the structure as the SNCOs have a primary duty for the training and welfare of their airmen/women, not their bl00dy officers

Also, something you won't hear a lot of, but like any organisation, budgets are now a fundemental feature of daily life. Stn Cdrs now hold the entire Budget for their units, which includes the wages for all the personnel located there. Growing numbers of units are scrutinising the wage bill and endeavouring to assess whether a task can be achieved more economically. When it comes to ops rooms the answer is yes. The result, yup you've guessed it, replace OpsOs with SNCOs, they're cheaper far more experienced, understand the 'company' procedures and so on. Two units in particular have alledgedly started to implement this policy already. At my unit, it is hoped that two OpsO slots will go, thus saving the unit in excess of 100 grand.

All in all not a satisfactory state of affairs, the Branch presently conducts yearly 'seminars' around the RAF, an opportunity for feedback and a forum for everybody to be apart of the way ahead, unfortunately there are so many dissillusioned OpsOs that it looks like a radical rethink is needed.

If I were you I would seriously rethink your options and maybe consider Int or ATC.

[MilOps]

Currently your BA duties pretty much mirror exactly those of an SAC working in Stn Ops on an RAF unit. At SNCO level, which by the way takes on average 15 years to achieve in todays modern RAF, you are performing broadly similar duties as your JO commissioned bretheren. However due to the way the system works, the final decision, will always come from an officer, even if he has to refer back to his SNCO for expert advice and reassurance.

As an OpsO you will be heavily involved in paper work and secondary duties, something that is a prerequisite for a successful career I'm afraid. Whether you like it or not what you do in your spare time is directly related to your success in the service. Notwithstanding FOMere2's comments, most JO's are expected to show initiative and seek out some extra curricular activity pretty much on arrival. Demonstrates character and capacity. If you don't one will be chosen for you! He is however spot on with the rest of his advice. Don't expect an exciting or challenging life as an OpsO, but if you are academically qualified I would recommend the Commissioned route every time. Life style, pay and pension are better.

Maybe you can give me some advice. I am soon to come out at the other end and am looking at careers in civil aviation. As an ex SNCO where would I reasonably expect to slot in. I intend to take the FAA Dispatch licence and the ICAO FOO licence. Any good? Also what's the pay and conditions like, etc etc.

[MilOps]

QJK04, It's a pleasure to be of assistance.

I'm not due to leave, on my current contract, for another 10 years, however I can opt to leave at my 22 year point in 2.5 yrs, with an immediate pension at the age of 40. If I stay on I would be entering a very competitive market at age 47, bit old methinks.
I live in East Anglia so Stansted and Norwich are options, as is Cambridge. My preferred choice is Stansted, so leaving at age 40 would at least give me a chance at a second career.

Ops isn't the only avenue in aviation I'm considering however, there is bush pilot or crop duster in Africa or South America that appeal. Currently investigating this one but I feel that this might not be really practical given my age, eyesight, work permits and the type of flying I want to do. Wonder what the chances are in Alaska?

There is heaven forbid the option of staying in the RAF, but something tells me that I would be copping out and that one day I will wake up and review my life and realise that that was it.

[FOMere2eternity]

DH98 makes some very valid points and MilOps' contradiction of the secondary duty scenario is probably apposite.

Going back to DH98, he's right in so much as JO's in Ops do tend to get quite a few niff-naff jobs because they haven't generally got the experience to be trusted with much else. Moreover, from the (good old ?) days of having aircrew in the chair, it's become a career path nowadays. A comparison I will try and share is of ATC officers - they all fundamentally control aircraft and it's difficult to control 'better' than the controller next to you. That often leads to an overweighted reliance on secondary duties because it's normally only 'secondaries' that make you stand out from the crowd. This leads to a lot of bitching in your average ATC !
I've already seen Ops rooms, with several JO's, start to turn this way.

That said, if you're on the ball and able to concentrate on learning the job back to front, upside down and in French, I still think you'll be able to get on - not least because many JO's prefer to concentrate on the secondary duty route. I can probably summarise by saying you need gumption, balls and effective intelligence - if you've got that, the respect is there to be had. If you play politics, have no backbone and aren't really interested in the job as more than a means to get on, you'll be spotted !

Due to the variety of Ops jobs, the FOTS course will be of little value to you - especially with your BA background - something like the TV show 'Now Get Out of That' (if you remember it) would be much better training, where you're left in a tricky spot with limited time and have to think laterally.

As MilOps says though, getting through the gate as an officer is the way ahead - quite simply because you're treated as a grown-up. How you conduct business once you're past the IOT door is up to you...:cool:

[DuckDogers]

Gentlemen,

What i am about to say its the truth in its entirity with certain elements covered up. Mil Ops will be able verify many aspects of what i have said.

Where to start? The course, it is nothing more than a joke! An overstretched version of what the FOA's assistants course is at Shawbury. What they should be teaching is the larger picture, what i term the mil ops 'rotti and narn.' That is being able to prep Mission Folders for crews embarking on a sortie; in essence the ability to dissect information from daily ATO's, ACOS's and SPINS, liaise directly to the HQ and ensure that all aspects are covered. Lets face it this is what is done once any JOO leaves his 'comfort zone' in his nice hardened WOC. There is a whole host of further issues such as dip clears, fuel fig calcs etc that must be learnt on the job. Enough about that!

My place of work then. As Mil will confirm i have 2xSgts (FOM's), 2xCpls who works for me (one should really be a Sgt) and several FOA's. It is these people WHO RUN the ops rooms in the RAF. We presently have 3x Ops O's and we are not even a 24hr unit! We are here as supposed 'top cover' and decision makers. In reality 99.9% of these decisions can be made by a Sgt and senior Cpl. As for Ops O's on Sqns, Mil step in any time, all i can say really is why? I have mates on some F3 Sqns and essentially all they are is an extra admin clerk to do sqn VI's and other gash jobs that the aircrew palm off that need Officers to do. Unfortunately 2Gp seem to believe that Ops O's in all departments is the way forward. It has got to the stage where Ascots Ops Controllers will only speak to us Ops O's because, they have the opinion that the FOM's on my unit, A and P, cannot be trusted despite them running transops and tanker trails!!!!

DH98, as for secondary duties. Yeap i'm one of those who was told when i arrived at my nice pointy jet unit that your secondary duty will be CCIS SIM. As Mil will verify i'm not interested in network management of computers but have soldiered on and i'm sure Mil may agree, have not done a bad job. At the end of the day my job is boring and only find solitude when i go and spend quality sciving time at Mils gaff in his nice planning room, the gym or hanging around the Int section. A job i am qualified for but the RAF and their CRAP selection policies said no!

On the issue of people competing for recognition one of the guys i work with is this man. He has more secondary duties coming out the ying yang than a man with 20 arms.

I am utterly demotivated and see no future staying in my present employment in a branch which is politically directed at Air rank level. As those who now me ia m 100% for the RAF and most of the Ops we undertake, but unfortunately get demotivated with some of the muppets in the branch you wanted to do.

Even though this is an open forum and many will be able to deduce who i am because of my present location. Lets just call it an on air symposium where people can air their views without retribution! My final comment is QJK04 if you intend to join then so be it but DO look at other branches, especially Int and good luck!

Mil, i'll see you back in the UK in August. Bu the news is good and bad though, gotta leave the RAF before they will confirm employment for the other firm. Give me 12 months and a little cash saved and that's me done!

Opinions, Questions, Comments?

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The Warbler, again? Oh go on then!

:) :)

[cl5b&scare]

Well Gents
Having just read all you have written I am glad I left 6yrs ago,my life in aviation up till now has been somewhat up and down (its down at the mo Due to my last empolyer going..well thats an other story)
All I can say is that the skys the limit ,,,but it does rain sometimes and you got to get a foot in the door ,,,Its hard work but once in you cann get a long way quickly,,some of the airlines out there are well aware of how Ex Mil guys work and will be more then happy to take you on,,but so have had real bad times with ex mil guys and are not that sure ,,you just got to prove them wrong,,as for me well I did some work for free for an airline/airport befroe I left and it was a real eye opener ...try it some love an extra hand for free,,worked on the line as well as ops for one which proved a life saver later,,,so good luck to you any qustions just drop me a line
:D :D :D :rolleyes: :cool:

[no sig]

I often have ex service types enquiring about qualifications to enter civil airline ops, for those interested note the posting on the ICAO FOO course at the Glasgow College Nautical Studies. I believe the College will be contacting the RAF/RN to gain acceptance as a re-settlement training course. Also, our Ops salaries range from £17K to £32K for Duty Managers. Ex RAF Ops officer with the either the ICAO FOO or FAA licence and experience could reasonably expect to start in at £21K

Thought you might be interested.

[DuckDogers]

Because you get to go everywhere, see whats happening and have a good laugh. Job wise its very varied as well, first tour could be as a duty watch officer (DWO) at the AWC at RAF Waddington or employed as Dep St Into, second tour either stn into or Squinto on a sqn which is tip top. If you choose the imagery path could go to Brampton then for a second tour at a RIC (Harriers / Jags / toncas).

You can even do language courses and do humint, basically gathering int on the ground by merging in with the local culture and picking stuff up from the general mood of the populous.

This is only a very brief outline, best thing to do is arrange a visit to Marham / Cottesmore or Coltishall where there is a large recce in presnnce.

At the end of the day don't take my word for it go and see for yourself. Im just pro the job as ITS WHAT I SHOULD BLOODY be doing but some chisling Group Captain witha bur up his arse decided otherwise.

:cool:

[FOMere2eternity]

QJK04
The Int boys are responsible for preparing briefings for the CO and the like, so it's normally fairly high profile stuff. If you're interested in the subject matter you can excel.
Most of it you can probably guess - it's about receiving (as opposed to collecting !) stuff from higher up and producing briefings for aircrew and senior officers. Take Bagram, for example, you'll be the bloke to get the nod that we're going there and you'll have to dig out everything you can on the place, from climate to runway strengths.
As a whole it's a bit like watching CNN (where a lot of material originates !) but you'll be the bloke that has to develop a little fo your own commentary and assessment.
It's not James Bond meeting with Agent XXX in Warsaw !
If I was still enthusiastic enough, I'd probably opt for IntO on my application form - much closer to the sharp end than a blunty adminners discussing budgets, parades and leave policy :rolleyes:

[FOMere2eternity]

p.s.

forgot to add that it can be fairly dry too - many an IntO has bored me with his envious knowledge of SAM systems, but if you can put up with being a nerd, it's worth a shot.

...and still beats health & safety meetings in Admin Wing !

[MilOps]

QJK04
I recently underwent a very comprehensive, albiet informal, brief on Int and the future within the RAF; everything that has been said by DD and FOMere2 pretty well sum it up. Int is new and evolving fast, so far they are 58 junior officers short and are keen to recruit the right people, opportunites are varied, some posts will be dry but many are not and offer challenge and above all real satisfaction. Having been employed on a number of operational detachments over the last few years, it is clear that ops is really a peace time job and therefore, for me, hugely dissatisfying. My application for commissioning is in, P2 brief on 16 May and I am applying for Int.

[FOMere2eternity]

Oh Jeez - just when you think things can't get any worse......Mil applies for a commission :p

[MilOps]

ooooooooooooooooh, bit of banter!

[DuckDogers]

Don't worry he's been threatening for a little while!!!! Personally i think he should come to Aus with me and be done with it.:eek:

[Molesworth Hold]

Extract from FOTS Course: How to file a Flight Plan

Receive Flight Plan from aircrew
|
V
Give Flight Plan to SAC -> No SAC -> Do Nothing
|
V
On return of SAC, B@llock Him/Her for skiving
|
V
Give Flight Plan to SAC

This was a former FS’s lighthearted introduction to the lesson.

Just to add a little bit of opinion I believe that TG9 has big troubles, experience levels at rock bottom, the rank structure all to c0ck and then there's the Fast Trackers.

[MilOps]

Couldn't agree more! This has been a lively topic of discussion for a while in various corners but as usual nopbody in authority is willing to acknowledge this let alone do something. From my peasant like view point, FOMs and FOAs will always be overlooked in favour of Air traffikers, and the Flt Ops boys will take on anything to validate their existence, including all the duties once carried out by SNCOs, so where does that leave us? In no mans land thats where. It does not bode well that more and more bright young SACs and JNCOs are leaving prematurely because of poor job satisfaction and abysmal career prospects. Soon the only people manning TG9 on the ops front will be a motley collection of incompetant misfits.

[DuckDogers]

Hey Hey I acknowledged it! Found out another comedy bit of news though, they have a resident RAF air trafficer at AAS! Why?

A little harsh was Molesworths comment i think especially given my own competency level gained in the last two months, but i will admit and believe i have mentioned earlier in this thread that the course needs drastic alteration, which i shall embark on trying to do once returned from my PODL. Talking of which, MIL i should be back in the UK on or around 28 / 29 Jul. Gonna look to get posted but dont know where yet. On another note the otherones off in July.

Well to sum up the last two months for Mil, sun, sex, beer and watersports. ****** only two more to go!

PS: Please can i come to Incirlik in the future, go on....

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[MilOps]

Hey DD, you are nothing more than a gloating GIT! How I envy you. If you come back with something that the Doc warned you against, oh how I will laugh. Spoke to youer oppo today, yup off early Jul to play with the ever shrinking RAF transport fleet, he seems upbeet about it. What are you up to? I take it that you are aware of various cost cutting measures underway, your man ain't being replaced.

I'm off to Maple Flag so won't be back until the end of Jun, what with your leave you won't be dusting the crap off your chair until August.

PS. No you can't come to Turkey, that's my job, you blighters will soon start easing yorselves in there given half a chance!

[FOMere2eternity]

Hey Mil, I might, just might, have found a North American foothold - am planning to recce in Aug. If it's a goody I'll let you know...

Was talking to one of my oppo's today and we agreed it's time to leave and pensions and stuff just isn't attractive enough anymore. I already see myself in a few years time as the fed-up WO and it's simply not good enough - I'm not even sure there's a solution that I could pass on to the hierarchy - just lost it's fun and challenge somewhere...

Duck - you sound like you have your head screwed on and I wish you luck. Would I stay as a Rodney ? no, I really don't think so - better cap badge or not :p the company missed it's chance 4 years ago and I'm very unforgiving. Some may call it bitterness, I call it an inability to recognise a potentially good deal. Until they start looking at the right people for posts and stop selecting on the basis of being a good all round chap, we're going to go bankrupt. (no implication there Duck).

Will keep you posted on my tunnel :cool:

[AtTheMinima]

An interesting read about the status of RAF ops.

I have a question for those still serving, I am a current RAAF ATC JO, considering a move from the colonies to the mother country.

Noting that the RAF is short on JOs, do they consider enlistments from O/S, into either ATC or OPSO slots?

Thanks...

[DuckDogers]

ATM,

See my initial response in the Mil Aircrew section, but lets add a little more. RAF OpsO jobs................Well as you have guessed from this thread they really are overemphasised in their importance. Whilst actually deploed OOA the job is interesting as you see the ultimate product of what you are doing, in my current case AT and primarily AAR at the moment. But we have to remember that the majority of OpsO post are throwbacks from the days when it was a ground tour for aircrew hence the high number on many units when, in reality, you would need one person.

For instance, on my unit we have too many people, to be frank you could nearly do away with the entire Sqn and have it run from the flying sqns if you gave them a couple of more bods. As for ATC i can't really comment, yes its busy, you can go and do area radar at LATCC or SCATCCbut as for going OOA very little opportunity exists unles we go to complete holes like Kabul and / Bagram. Again if you like controlling ac then why not go for it.

Anyway gotta go the mighty beasts have to soar again soon.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[FOMere2eternity]

ATM

Not sure what the situ is in your neck of the woods (apart from scrapping your air force, which I guess could restrict the number of planes you get to control :p ) but it's not so great here.

Duck has told you a bit about OpsO, I know a little about ATC.

Career opportunities are there for ATCO's but as usual, it's a case of watch out for knives in the back - I deliberately chose not to convert to controller and one of the principle reasons was the environment. JO's do get more of a crack of the whip, cos they need em to be supervisors (as opposed to SNCO's) but getting a SATCO job one day is pretty tricky.

The only other thing I heard a while back - which has some merit financially - is the rumour that they might be looking to reduce officer posts in favour of SNCO's - quite simply cos they're cheaper in the long run. I emphasise that's a rumour and haven't seen any evidence.

There's a lot of penny-pinching in the company today and my best suggestion would be convert to civvy ATC or look elsewhere - perhaps USAF or CAF ? If you really want to come here, my money would be on OpsO, but only cause it HAS to get better - not cause it is much right now.

Ultimate suggestion would be head for the beach, crack a beer, get a barbie going and chuckle at our unfortunate existences ! :p

[FOMere2eternity]

....or was it the Kiwi's who sold all their planes and went home ?

Oh well, same accent.......:p

[Tocsin]

He dives.... he recovers!

Yes, it was the smaller antipodean island group that lost its head/FJs.

(Kudos for not hitting the edit button :p )

[AtTheMinima]

Thanks Duck and FOM,

It was the Kiwi's that sold their fighter squadron, the RAAF managed to pick up most of their personnel.

I would move to civilian ATC, but similiar to the RAF we are not accorded the civilian licence. Even though here in Aust we practically do the same job in Approach and Tower.

Yes, you probably wonder why move from the beach and barbie? A chance to live north of the equator, a change.

Brisbane is a nice city, you will enjoy the place Duck.

Thanks..

[DH98]

Afternoon all,

Been a way for a while and have just caught up on the latest on this thread. Flt Ops may have to get better FOMere2, however if you speak around the bazaars, things ain't all good. Many think its ok, however many more don't. Iwas speaking to the Flt Ops desk officer recently and even he admits that he has plenty of correspndence on his desk from the JO corps who all feel like skivvies. To add credence to his words I also spoke to a gadger at 2 gp who was quite clear in his view that the job is a waste of time and all they are doing are the duties of SNCOs and JNCOs.

It is quite clear that the RAF has got things horribly wrong and needs to assess things in better detail. If it was my company I would remove a significant number of OpsO's and replace them with SNCOs, who incidentally are cheaper, more experienced, understand the 'Company' system, and the wider picture for that matter. I could go on but I feel that the point has already been adequately made by others.

DD, for your info, I totally disagree with your view about the duties of a Flt Ops officer. All the duties you mention were once the preserve of SACs and Cpls. In my day I, as a JNCO, would deal with all these aspects, furthermore as a SNCO I was the ops officer out in Gioia when it was reopened in 1998 and dealt with every thing from C130s to multiple visiting fast jets to senior members of the Cabinet. Now all this has become the preserve of the commissioned mafia, are we not good enough, I think not! or is it more to do with ursurping the role of RAF SNCO FOMs?

Hardly surprising that people feel disenfranchised and undervalued, I do and intend to PVR soon as a direct result.

[FOMere2eternity]

DH

I think that's a company wide problem - there's always been the presumption that 1 bar (however thin) means you're a trustworthy chap, whereas 3 stripes makes you a council estate hero who can't quite be trusted.

Several, who I won't name, have said more or less exactly that when it comes to the credibility question. The answer, although it isn't one, is always that the officer side of the fence are simply much more capable and better human beings (or words to that effect :p ) Well HELLO company ! you've got it wrong !

See you on the other side DH - I feel the force pushing me and opportunity pulling me.......but I'll miss some stuff

:rolleyes:

[Molesworth Hold]

I would say that many of the views expressed are representative of many people I have met who have reached a point in their careers where they are looking for something else either inside or outside the RAF.

In the interests of balance I would like to point out that although I have worked with FOM’s who are interested, well motivated and enjoy the challenges of the job, I have met a fair few who are lazy and stupid. Of the last four I have worked with I would rate one to be exceptionally good and the other three to be poor to very poor. Unfortunately there are those who judge all, by the lowest common denominator and there are those who still look on FOM’s as those who couldn’t cut it as Air Traffic Controllers.

I’m not trying to be provocative, but the RAF is run by Officers for Officers and anybody else only has a subsidiary role. Flight Ops will continue as a branch because it supports a hierarchy above it, in the same way I think the number of SNCO ATC Controllers will steadily decrease until they reach the levels of 25 years ago, again to keep the various levels of management in jobs.

[DH98]

Molesworth Hold,

You are to a great extent correct with your assertions. Apart from a very few exceptions, I rate the majority of my colleagues as lazy and incompetent. When I was a newly promoted Sgt I was posted to an environment with 4 other SNCO OSMs (as we were then), I was apalled at the dreadful trade knowledge and the apathy to implement any form of discipline, but to be fair to some of them, the job is not challenging by any stretch of the imagination which does result in the shutting down of some primary systems. However I do grate at the propensity to generalisation by the officer corps that assumes we are all stupid, when clearly we are not.

In the defence to some SNCOs, it has to be pointed out that there are large numbers of officers who's leadership, personality and general ability are equally poor.

For my part, I hate the fact that I am regarded as some form of ATC failure when I am here by choice. My desire, as a fresh faced 18 year old, was to work in an aircraft operations environment. Remember, up until the the advent of Flt Ops the only entry into military aircraft operations was through the non commissioned AATC route. FYI I am more than academically qualified for commissioning but what was on the table for me at the time (20 Years ago) was singularly uninspiring, Admin, Supply, ATC, FC. I had no interest in controlling (ATC or FC) and as for the other two! But yet I am considered a biff by my ATC colleagues for being an FOM.

I have no doubt that a commission would be my next step, but Flt Ops is still not dynamic enough to make me want to concentrate for, and notwithstanding the enthusiasm of some of them, the job bears a remarkable resemblence to a commissioned chimpanzee, merely undertaking a miriad of silly little jobs that the aircrew would rather not do anymore. Furthermore I am yet to be convinced that a commission is indeed the right thing for me, for when I have engaged Commissioned officers in conversation and solicited for advice, the only inspiration they can offer is the better pay, living conditions, status within the service and enhanced pension. Nothing is mentioned of greater job satisfaction, welfare of subordinates, making a greater contribution to the organisation, etc. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture.

I still intend to apply for a commission, I am lucky, I work on a FJ Sqn and the pilots are real gents who care, and because of this I am reminded that all is not bad. After my current deployment I have a P2 brief to attend then after that the ball is in my court. However I am acutely aware that my current frame of mind suggests that I am not committed enough, not from apathy more from dissilusionment.

[canberra]

apollo i worked wiv the bloke who got his sqn ldr after one tour and went to caoc 9. i believe hes at northolt now. he was a complete ********* his nick name was smithers! personally i think the flight ops branch should be branch comissions only or failed aircrew, but a lot of the flt ops who are failed aircrew have big attitude problems, perhaps the course at shawbury should have a more military feel, you know early morning parades and drill. might make some of them remember what the f stands for in raf. end of soapbox rant!

[DuckDogers]

Was his name the second part of Michaels and i believe he was an ex ATC officer who got bored controlling? Met him once i think your comment sums up rather well, and yes he DOES look like smithers!!!

[canberra]

yes youve got him in one!!

[APOLLO]

I remember this bloke to. Firstly when he was an air tragicer, i say no more and more recently on one of the frequent dets to the Middle East. He was apparently doing the SLOPS job at Thumrait or Seeb, think it was the former. However ive seen a more organised and helpful outfit in some of the deepest, darkest crevices of the former eastern bloc countries.

Never actually figured out what he actually did?! But Smithers you say..............Could well believe that, i bet he even put the Wg Cdr to bed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar; Galactica....."

[DuckDogers]

Good news for me, shame about the rest of those in my branch. I've managed to get the post out here dis-established which makes sense with future plans in the pipeline for reducing it to what it once was, or more probable, moving it due to Gulf Airs plan to make Bahrain their Mid East hub which means it will be Very busy.

Quick one for Mil if he reads this, How was Maple Flag? I'll be back in the UK 28 July and around the unit for a couple of days before embarking on a mammoth Post Op Deployment Leave.

See you soon dude!

PS: I'm nearly resembling a local in colour but personally i think its more of a dark olive tan!!!

[canberra]

i remember an engineer at goose who got himself disestablished and made himself very unpopular. it goes like this, bloke gets to goose on 1 year unaccompanied tour, manages to get it changed to a 3 year accompanied tour. a couple of months after wife gets there the establishment team arrive. bloke manages to get disestablished, but manages to stay at goose for rest of tour. not only that but cos hes disestablished he wangles on to all the nellis and other dets that goose supports, as he says "ive got no job at goose!!!" yes this bloke was v popular at goose.

[MilOps]

Hey DD how's it hangin'?

Maple Flag was a bore, long days with menial and trivial activity to keeps us occupied.

Good to see that you have managed to lighten the OOA load, at least that will mean fewer people getting shafted. I'm still waiting to find out where I'm due to go in the new year. When you get back drop in for a brew and fill me in on the RAAF.

[DuckDogers]

Attention all RAF Trade Group 9 Personnel. Have learnt that the present Det Cdr out in this wonderful part of the world is looking at supplementing / replacing your positions with those useless scopey type assistance from Trade Group 12.

This has already been pushed up to J1 Level at the relevent HQ and ive tried to tip those off who it will directly effect. We all know that this is occuring because the aforementioned is a Fighter Controller and wants to see his Trade Group have a good OOA, don't think they'd send them to Kabul, Bagram, Pristina though would they!!!

[MilOps]

Hey DD, what the heck is going on out there?

Drop me a line on the company computer with some details and I'll speak words to our trade sponsor. TG12 Personnel are NOT Operations Personnel, merely radar moniters for the UK air defence network. If this is some chimp trying to reawakwen the old festering sore between scopies and Ops/ATC then standby!

I would be amazed if the TG9 Trade sponsor will allow this to slip through the net, however if he is unaware he could find himself the victim of a dun deal because all the leg work was completed clandestinely.

Speak to you later Dude.

[FOMere2eternity]

Hey, why not just fill the post with an adminner and then see how well things run ?

"I'm sorry sir, you haven't got the authority to give away that fuel"

"You'll have to come back on Monday after the SAMA database save"

"Saturday ? sorry, we're closed"

"Unfortunately the guy you spoke to last week was wrong and you can't claim it this week"

Oh, halcyon days........

[canberra]

ive had dealings with scopies over the years. in fact we had them in the ops room at leuchars for a few years. as has been said they arent suitable for employment in ops rooms, the lads we had were nice enough but i didnt have confidence in them. i actually got a bollocking one day cos i sent one of them home, he was sent down to work in flt planning, i was trying to train a new girl up at the time so i sent him home! our ops 1 at the time was a fighter controller and empire builder, he and i didnt see eye to eye. as a final point what happened to the plan to merge the trades?

[MilOps]

Canberra,

The TG9/TG12 merge idea didn't get off the ground for reasons various, but mainly for the dissimilar duties and differing pay scales. This gimp in Bahrain is merely empire building, as scopies tend to do, a lot! Now that the AD threat to UK airspace is considerably less than it once was they, as a group of people, are keen to ensure their future and if that means usurping other peoples established roles then so be it. This fellow has one problem to his argument and that is he isn't pushing to include all the less savoury OOA Dets in his mandate.

[DuckDogers]

After my highly good tip off all sorts of fighting has gone on back in the UK. However, the said person out here is looking at pushing it above the heads of the deskies to definitely get a scope dope position out here. Mil if you have read this ill call you on friday assuming the 'war' you are fighting at home has been won. Oh well Only a short period of time left now, ill swing by your gaff on 25 July.