ATC asked us to intercept a 10 mile Final.

[meatlover]

The IAF was at 14.5 miles, and there was no specific point at 10 miles.
I asked the Captain if he could insert a PBD for me and the Captain told me to just select some heading/track and use judgement.

Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?

Thanks guys.


Edit. A320 btw.

[Intruder]

You could do a point-to-point plot on an E6B...

[sycamore]

TLAR.......

[737Jock]

Depends... On how the approach is build...

Your captain is right though, use judgement, half a mile here or there really doesn't matter in this case. Concentrate on your energy management.

[BOAC]

Most of us KOS's would aim a bit to the side of the IAF and then SHIG if we couldn't TLAR it.:)

[The African Dude]

Assuming you don't have an FMS or don't want to use it for a PBD, think of the ILS as a VOR radial. You are currently at a distance x on radial a, you want to be at distance 10nm on radial b (final approach course).

Stick the Nav Display on VOR Rose mode. The larger distance (assume it's your present position) is the outer ring. For example, you are at 20 miles.

You want to go to 10nm point, so that will be halfway inside the ring. 5nm would be 75% of the way to the centre of the Rose ring, and so on. Situated on on your Final Approach Course.

Using your finger or something semi-straight (:ooh:) draw a line between your position at the outside edge of the Rose and the position of your 10nm point on the ILS.

Shift that straight edge to the centre of the Rose and read off your approximate track.

Turn on to that heading and adjust a little bit for the 20 secs of calculation time and wind.

If you really want to be deadly accurate then you can do a recalculation just before halfway (when the ILS DME reads 15nm in this case). If the new value is different, double the track error and adjust.


Edit to say: I agree with the other posters - stick it on an approximate heading and focus on the overall situational awareness and energy management instead of trying to get too accurate in this particular case. I'm also A320 btw.

[Microburst2002]

Use the ND!!

Set a HDG that will make the green line cut the extended runway centerline at approximately 10 miles from the runway.

easy. avoid PBDing at low altitude or in terminal airspace if you can.

It is like being directed direct to the VOR but everybody knows they will give you vectors well before reaching it. Instead of DIR TO, keep the FPLN depicted as it was, for the vectors, and use HDG and your ND to track to the VOR. If you use the FMGS, vertical navigation will be meaningless. With HDG, using just the FCU and your ND the donut will give sensible information.

Tactical use of HDG is a good tool, specially when you have an ND with a map

[Slasher]

Pilots use TLAR. Computer jocks need PBDs. And besides - I thought it was
L'Airboos procedure that no UNNECESSARY typing into the box be done when
in the TML area and/or B100 during climb or descent.

I employ the SIAS method after I've decided TLAR. As I get closer if I have to
tidy up by a handful of degrees here and there I do.

- Scuse me ignorance BOAC but isn't "SHIG" slang for a rubbish night of sex
with a slag? http://serve.mysmiley.net/tongue/tongue0026.gif

[Capn Bloggs]

Surely there's an ipad app for this??

[PURPLE PITOT]

Just follow the line, and sing the company song at the appropriate time.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Not familiar with the Airbus FMC but I assume, like Boeing, you can either:

1) Create a waypoint ie runway -10nm

OR

2) Enter the Airfield, or a beacon on the airfield, with a 10nm range circle around it?

[crwkunt roll]

Put a 10nm ring on the Rwy Threshold descend to 3000 agl and fly to it.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Or keep your head up and fingers out of the box like the old fart that knew what he was doing suggested?

[Dan Winterland]

The controller was just being lazy - he/she couln't be bothered to give you a radar vector. Providing there were no terrain issues. I would be inclined to accord him/her the same courtesy and use a loose TLAR heading based on a suitable intercept.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Pardon I but WTF is a TLAR?

[BOAC]

SHIG - See how it goes? Added onto TLAR as a progress check.

[Big Pistons Forever]

TLAR = That Looks About Right

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Now it all makes sense! Thanks BPF.

BOAC, KOS - King Of Swing?

[Slasher]

SHIG - See how it goes?


Oh ok...that's up there with SIAS - gets back to that rubbish sex with a slag thing again.

[mutt]

How did people fly airplane before the FMS was invented?

Hey Slash, this time around, can you try to stay on the mods good side, we miss you when you get banned :)

[Contacttower]

Funny I came on here thinking of asking a similar question (although not about the A320). Did the OP come across this at Glasgow by an chance?

Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.

[Abbey Road]

It is an unfortunate, but inevitable, result of aviation in this age of button-pushing and pretty-coloured screens. Those who have grown up using little else are rendered near-incapable when such gadgets are taken away from them, or are prevented from using them.

What seems like common sense (and that is essentially the ethos behind TLAR ...) for pilots experienced in 'hands-on' flying, is an utter mystery to Children of the Magenta String. And it is only going to get worse!

[Chris Scott]

What absolute rubbish, Abbey Road, it's never magenta on an Airbus...

Think I'd ask ATC if there was any magic in 10 miles. It's slightly ambiguous anyway, IMHO, unless there's some protocol I'm not aware of. And it depends where you are when the instruction is given (e.g., you might be on the downwind leg).

Do you:
a) complete the turn on to the localiser at 10 nm;
b) head directly for the 10-mile final, and then start the turn on to the localiser so as not to shoot through it;
c) self-position so as to give yourself a short intercept leg at, say, a 30-degree angle?

"Is there an accurate way, other than inserting a PBD, to intercept at 10 miles?"

Even that's not strictly accurate (and the distraction is unacceptable). Defining the PBD without forcing an OVHD results in (b). Defining it with an OVHD means you shoot through the LLZ.

I'd probably use ROSE NAV and do my own headings, so would use AP. But check NAV ACCURACY first, or you might overfly the presidential palace like I once did in a third-world country. :{

[Ollie Onion]

Umm, I think just do as the Captain said, PULL HDG and aim inside the IAF and refine as you get closer. It drives me mad when FO's are fiddling around trying to build circuits or PBD's in the FMGC when it would be easier just to take the autopilot out and eyeball it. :ugh: Sign of the times I guess.

[sevenstrokeroll]

you really didn't give us enough information...so

were you on radar vectors, and had been given a heading to intercetp?

were you in radar contact?

were you in VMC DAYLIGHT?

What kind of final/instrument approach were you intercepting, a localizer, vor , ndb? four course range?

One could determine a 10 mile final by cchecking glide slope indications by adding 3200 feet to touchdown zone elevation (actually closer to 3160 feet)...so, fly at 3200' and when GS is centered, you are about 10 miles (slant range to GS antenna).

So, what exactly is the info as req'd above?

oh, did you have the airport in sight? had you been to the airport before?

[bubbers44]

Seems like if they don,t want to give you a vector just wing it and for amusement see how close you can be.

I would choose the 20 mile scale method and aim for the middle. If it was an ils 3200 ft works for intercepting final. If ATC really cared they would give you a vector and speed so don't worry about it.

[grounded27]

Single pilot and with only a Garmin 430 I just asked the controller for a heading rather than fiddle with entering waypoints. Would have been possible to do it quickly with an old VOR/DME RNAV system ironically...could have done it off the Glasgow VOR.

It blows my mind that questions like these are this common, did it cross the O.p.'s mind to request a vector victor??? The answer to the question is so simple that I figured I had to be missing something obvious

[TheRobe]

1 - Ask your captain
2 - Look it up in the SOPS
3 - Call the company
4 - Ask ATC where you are
5 - Ask a passenger
6 - Don't do anything, wait till ATC tells you what to do.

[meatlover]

Thanks all for the responses and feedback, I do appreciate.
Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.

Again, thanks.

[bubbers44]

You did everything right. If they don't give you a vector and speed just wing it and see how it works out. They don't seem to care. Life is too short to come up with magical approaches from anywhere just because approach is too lazy to give you a vector. Just do it if you want to test your side skills because it isn't required in an airliner.

Look at the new guys being hired. Do you think they could do anything without automation? I applaud the 1500 HR USA rule. We might have a pilot shortage but we will have real pilots. Others will have 250 hr wonders. Then they won't be allowed to handfly because of their lack of experience so if the button pushing doesn't work right they are finished. AF447 is an example of that. They had thousands of hours pushing buttons but couldn't hand fly an airplane. The old timer taking his break was the only one that could have fixed what they did. That is what happens when you become automation dependent.

Please give us real pilots back like we did when I was flying.

[Intruder]

Sorry i did not give alot of details.
I was flying flight plan route which would take me to the VOR.
ATC cut me off on a very long base leg basically and told me to go direct to a 10 mile final to intercept the LOC.
We did ask if we could go direct to the initial FIX of the loc approach, to which ATC responded "negative".
Night time, localizer approach, radar contact.
YGBSM!

You have an FMS and ND, a 14.5 NM fix AND the airport on the ND, and you can't figure out how to quickly navigate to a point about 2/3 of the way out from the airport to the fix?!? How "accurate" do you have to be at that point?!?

I think you need a basic instrument navigation refresher!

[bubbers44]

Also your captain was right, just use your best judgement and head more in the airport direction and don't worry too much about the 10 miles. I wouldn't. I don't think ATC cared either. You had plenty of distance behind preceding traffic so they were just cutting you short behind them. Maybe it was a noise abatement thing on the 10 mile final. You would have been fine just cutting your approach short to make ATC happy.

[bubbers44]

By the way don't listen to intruder. I have more experience than him and am not arrogant. He should not be saying what he does.

[Roger Greendeck]

If I were to hazard a guess I would suggest that if you had gone to the IAF the extra track miles would have messed up the controller's sequence for following traffic but I doubt he was after 10 mile final with laser precision. We live in a world where extreme precision is often possible but not required. TLAR sounds about right.

[porch monkey]

Post 1 says 14.5 miles, doesn't it?

[TyroPicard]

Aaaah, BOAC..... from PFK to KOS in forty short years...

[Microburst2002]

Meatlover, trust me. Just use the ND and graphically take the green line with HDG to approx 10 miles from the runway.

Also ask PNF to sequence the waypoints so that waypoint TO will make sense, and that's it, you will have lateral and vertical navigation to quickly assess if you are too high now, before making your mental maths regarding that.

[Cadet Murphy]

I normally precalculate a 10 mile final-fix for my destination (since ATC is more than likely to position you at 10 miles when giving radar vectors).
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.
The other waypoints are base leg position on a 45 degree intercept. Then next to the waypoints are the heights for a 3 degree descent.
Interesting post.
http://s13.postimage.org/62x82u1dv/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/62x82u1dv/)

[Lightning Mate]

How did people fly airplane before the FMS was invented?

The way we always did, using brains and logic, and well taught situational awareness.

TLAR + SA

[FlyingStone]

Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S :)

What worries me is people asking how to intercept 10 miles final on an aircraft built around FMS (e.g. Airbus) :ugh:

[Piltdown Man]

I'm rubbish at 10 mile finals. Mine always turn out being closer to 5 or 6 miles. Poor technique I suppose.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from FlyingStone:

“Direct 10 miles final is standard procedure in certain parts of Africa - with all navaids at the airport being U/S”

That was where I overflew the presidential palace... Self-positioning using HDG select and the FMS info on the ND is child’s play, with the displayed track even compensating for the wind.

BUT... Just make sure your NAV ACCURACY is showing HIGH. In the 1980s, lack of DME updating for several hours prior to the approach meant the ND was based on IRS position (for newbies, that’s not good enough). In the 1990s, that all changed with the introduction of GPS updating.

So, to spell my message loud and clear: particularly in the Third World, make sure your GPS updating is working before relying on the ND for initial approaches.

[Check Airman]

Meatlover,

I'm not sure what type you fly, but to answer your question, I don't know of a perfectly accurate way to intercept the final at exactly 10.0nm.

The heat you're getting from most of the posters here is because your question seems a bit silly. If you wanted to know how to intercept at exactly 10nm, I suppose it's a valid question. However, if you're flying a modern jet (somewhere here it was assumed you're in an A320) and can't figure out how to join final at ~10nm, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with some here that you are far too dependent on automation.

[aterpster]

Chris Scott:

So, to spell my message loud and clear: particularly in the Third World, make sure your GPS updating is working before relying on the ND for initial approaches.

Not to mention that the country be WGS84 compliant.

[sevenstrokeroll]

so, you are in radar contact, just say: request vector to 10 mile final. and if he gets it wrong, its his fault...but always watch out for ATC errors that can put u into a mountain

[Microburst2002]

Cadet Murphy, are you serious??

I normally precalculate a 10 mile final-fix for my destination (since ATC is more than likely to position you at 10 miles when giving radar vectors).
I do this via a spreadsheet on the iPad developed specifically for this PBD calculation, and then insert the waypoints in the FMS during preflight. I can always delete later or simply use as reference.


And how would you do it if you didn't inserted it for whatever reason?

[Check Airman]

Cadet Murphy, are you serious??I suppose he doesn't frequent Miami...

ATC: If I give you a visual, can you make it from there?

Pilot: Um....ehhh...sure we can do it

ATC: OK, keep it tight, cleared for the visual 09

Pilot: Cleared visual approach runway 09 (AP disconnect aural warning in the background)

Fun times:ok:


And how would you do it if you didn't inserted it for whatever reason?

There I was, 2000ft abeam the numbers at 180kt, and out of nowhere the controller asked if I could see the field. Before I knew it, the captain said yes, and ATC cleared us for a visual approach. My hands trembled as I tried to create a PBD fix using the VOR, which was not located at the airport. The sweat was dripping from my brow as I wondered how I got myself into this mess...

[bubbers44]

We loved getting that short cut to 9 at MIA. Eyeballs take care of the situation. No typing required. Even more fun was being downwind over the bay at SFO at 11.000 and being told cleared for the visual 28R, keep your base inside the bridge.

[Capn Bloggs]

I'm quite happy with TLAR by looking out the window but, if you Magenta Kids must use the box, create your fixes off the runway threshold; forget the VOR! YPPH03/196/10: 10nm final done. Lat Rev to add runway done. Create offsets and base positions off the 10nm PBD: defined waypoints, of course, prior to Transition/MSA. ;)

[john_tullamarine]

Even more fun was being downwind ...

Two similar trips I recall fondly.

(a) HBA - SYD, L188, empty, late at night. FL300 (just for the interest) cleared for descent many miles south of SYD. Numerous (increasingly anxious) checks from ATC along the lines of "have you commenced descent yet ?". Despite our many suggestions that all was well and the view just great, and just about when we figured the guy was going to get very bitter and twisted, we started down about 5nm north of the airport .. turned inside the Harbour Bridge and still had to put on power before 1500ft. Guess I could have made it tighter but we were a tad tired after several sectors.

(b) DRW - CNS, B733, normal rough as guts westerly mid summer conditions. Overhead the upwind end around F130 for a very relaxed (and nil bumps) RH circuit over the water.


We had a standard keep us awake at O-dark-30 fun trick, again on the L188, HBA-LST. Aim was to handfly to TOC, nil cruise, nose straight over into the descent, close the levers, with bar money penalties depending on being on slope turning final with power up at the height nominated predeparture. No FMS, etc., and not much else to help other than mental back of a fag packet calculations.


Actually, this sort of thread does sadden me somewhat ...

[Field In Sight]

Runway threshold/reciprocal of QDM/10

i.e EGCC23R/053/10

[Capn Bloggs]

QDM
QFU actually. ;)

[Microburst2002]

It takes to have a company with not too strong OM policies preventing hand flying and captains willing to enjoy and let enjoy.

I have done a few with zero automation sectors in the 320, blank FMA from take off till touch down, including VOR approach with DME arc and including cruise flight (at 280 or below, of courrrrrse).

Now I am afraid of even suggesting the possibility of doing a no FD, no A/THR ILS...

[Slasher]

John Tulla - I used to (try to) do the same thing in the Dizzy 9.....pull out the
slats at 280kt - drop the gear - then flaps - all with full speed brake - but I'd
have to be much lower than 30 grand at 5 miles. The bestest I ever done was
into LST 31,000 at 30 DME on a DME Arr in TJJ for R14. Them 4 NTS'ing Dowty
Rotes musta gave more drag than 2 idling JT8D blowies.


http://www.aussieairliners.org/dc-9/vh-tjj/1135.110.jpg


We were leather-jacket petrolheads on the 9 fleet! :)

[bubbers44]

The only L188 I flew was the sim to get my airline job. Ended up in a single engine ILS with no visual with another check airman pulling the fire handle on my last engine at DH. I passed. I can imagine with all those big props at idle the drag but am impressed with the FL300 story. We played the same game in the 737. Leaving cruising altitude you couldn't add power or use speed brakes. At 1,000 feet spool up and land. Most of the time it worked but you had to play winds and weight to make it work out. ATC sometimes interfered but usually not. It was really fun into SFO because of the Boulder altitude and speed restriction. We sometimes asked ATC to drop the rock to do the 1,000 ft spool up with the higher speed at Boulder.

[Chris Scott]

Those were the days (sigh)... Later, some of us were restricted to 3000ft/min when below an altitude of MSA+3000ft. And then they introduced GPWS...

aterpster,
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84... :{ What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)

[aterpster]

Chris Scott:

aterpster,
Good point. Many African countries, I now see, are not fully compliant with WGS84... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif What's the likely maximum error in their published coordinates? (Am hoping it's less than 100 metres.)

I can't answer that other than to relate the errors in the continental U.S. before they made the conversion.

On the coasts it was as little as a couple of feet.

In Kansas it was as large as 1,000 feet, or so, in longitude, but much less in latitude.

[Roger Greendeck]

The difference can be quite large. The USN ran a ship aground about 12 years back using GPS fixes on a non WGS84 chart. And when I say aground I don't mean a submerged obstacle but a visible headland! I'll have to see if I can find some picks.

[Roger Greendeck]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/16/1016119404.jpg

[meatlover]

Again, thanks for all the responses.
Just to be clear on one thing, I do not NEED a PBD or the automation to take me to a 10 mile final.
Ofcourse I can use the TLAR method and bring myself at a 10 mile final, which is essentially what I did, quiet nicely too.

It was the first time I heard that clearance, and I wanted to see what techniques other Pilots use, and maybe I was missing something.

Anyway thanks again.

[bubbers44]

You will probably never get that clearance again. In Portland Ore. the clearance was turn final at the confluence of the two rivers, cleared for the visual landing east arriving from the south. I have no idea how the button pushers could do that at a moments notice. It is quite easy if you are a real pilot not depending on automation. The button pushers would have to enter holding to make a waypoint, but that is their problem. We should all be better than that or find another profession.

[john_tullamarine]

LST 31,000 at 30 DME on a DME Arr in TJJ for R14

That's the trick. One of my regrets was not having a bid onto the Diesel .. spent too long on the Goose/Three-Holer and the Type went the way of the dodo, unfortunately. 733, likewise, had no trouble bettering 1nm/1000ft ...

much lower than 30 grand at 5 miles

To clarify the story, that wasn't 30 with 5 to run. Track miles probably ended up around 20-22 by the time we turned approaching the water .. very versatile girl the old lady when it came to getting down to thicker air. Unfortunately most of the other Electra stories probably ought not to be told in general company ...

[bubbers44]

I hear you. Our 737 SJC approaches for noise abatement would have us all fired now with those high dives with spool ups and GS intercepts at 500 feet. That was a different time when flying was really fun. That is why I ended up flying to TGU in Honduras. Considered the most dangerous jet airliner airport in the world you could still have fun and be safe at the same time and still be legal because of special airport requirements. At least that is what a TV show of worlds 10 most dangerous airports said.

[john_tullamarine]

with those high dives with spool ups and GS intercepts at 500 feet

Can't say I like that sort of strategy .. and it would have had any of us hung, drawn and quartered at the Monday morning tea and bikkies meeting .. without the tea and bikkies.

Our preferred technique to get down quickly was to slow up at height, gear down, boards up on the jets (with due regard to any flap limitations), flaps to approach (with regard to the normal level restrictions on flap), idle thrust .. and then vary the descent profile with IAS.

Spin up routinely 1500ft on slope and speed in our operation.

.. and, if it turned to custard on the way down, we were never too proud to ask for an orbit although that was not often if the cognitive processes were on the ball.

[BOAC]

Our preferred technique to get down quickly was to slow up at height, gear down, boards up on the jets (with due regard to any flap limitations), flaps to approach (with regard to the normal level restrictions on flap), idle thrust .. and then vary the descent profile with IAS. - still the best option, especially with the now common restriction of not more than 3000fpm within 3000' of MSA, although few I flew with seemed to understand gradients etc.

[captjns]

TAWAG and see what happens, Hopefully it won't be a FUBAR approach. If one needs to rely on the automation, then as pointed out above, draw a 10 mile ring about the point of where the CFIT will take place and go for it.

[TheRobe]

I trained in the Portland area. I have a college degree.

'Uh..Portland Approach what is a 'confluence'?'

Better yet is when they tell you to turn at The Loyd Center.

'ahhha...Poitlind Aprooch...this is China Heavy 123, what is 'THE LOID CENTAR',

[TheRobe]

English must be your second language, let me explain it to you. It's silly to ask a pilot at an international airport to follow only locally known landmarks. Do you understand that simple concept?

[10W]

If it's in the UK, the it's probably all down to the fact that there is no standard position for a 'centre fix' in the UK. Some use 14.5 miles, some use 12, some use 10, some use less. As a result, we are NOT allowed to clear a pilot to his/hers centre fix, simply because we have no idea where it is.

To get round that, when we are willing and able (after co-ordination), we can send pilots to a generic centre fix, which is nominally 10NM. If you need more, or less, then say so when we clear you. It's not a big deal to position other traffic as a result if you need more or less miles on final. We do need to know though.

[Admiral346]

Robe,

indeed I comnpletely missunderstood you.

I do solemnly appologize, and I hope you can accept.

I deleted my post.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

Like so many discussions on here, they polarise into the two camps of the lovers of brain power and mental agility and the lovers of all things green and magenta. I am an Airbus pilot and I make it my business to find out every little nuance of how the FMGC works and what little tricks are out there to make the system do all the different things I could want at different stages of flight. That seems to me just common sense and professionalism, and I have no time whatsoever for the whining ex-Boeing pilots who are completely lost over stuff they should have picked up long ago and who just say the Airbus is rubbish. This tiny handful of negative aviators usually make a great play of 'airmanship' to cover up their professional inadequacies. It is totally unacceptable to me for a pilot to be on any aircraft for a reasonable period of time and just to be sat there having no idea what advanced functions exist and making no effort to find out.

There is, however, a strong case for ensuring that pilots do not lose the core skills of mental agility, common sense, genuine airmanship and the handling skills so important to safe flight. That again is not to speak against the more modern jets which do so much. It is to say that a professional pilot needs a range of skills that can be called upon in whatever circumstance he finds himself in. Complacency is a dangerous thing - whether over-reliance on computers or an inability to use the aircraft to its maximum potential through sheer ignorance. The truth rarely lies at the extremes of the argument - that is certainly the case here.

[737Jock]

I really have no idea what you are on about AdM especially the Ex-boeing comparison.

In general there is a time and a place for learning these things. I suggest that 3000ft AAL and about to start an approach is not that place nor time.

True there is hardly anything that can't be done through the FMGC, same applies to boeing FMS btw, and you have to know how these advanced features work. But you also need to realise that some of these advanced features are more about planning then short notice manipulation of the aircrafts flightpath. Why else do we have an FCU?

So my advice to the OP: sure build a circling approach with prescribed tracks or add a 10nm final point if you think that is what you will get. But do it in the cruise or a holding pattern. For short notice changes or when you really should stay heads-up use the FCU.
If ATC asks something you think is too complicated, tell them you are unable.

[Jonty]

Children of Magenta - YouTube

Well worth a watch.

[surfer of desert]

Hello Jonty, spot on, thats was exactly what was thinking about it!!! nobody need to put heads down trying to create an PBD at 15 NM from the rwy.

[Jonty]

Should be required viewing for all pilots of highly automated aircraft, and more airlines should be teaching something like this in initial and recurrent training.

[A Squared]

I can't answer that other than to relate the errors in the continental U.S. before they made the conversion.

On the coasts it was as little as a couple of feet.

In Kansas it was as large as 1,000 feet, or so, in longitude, but much less in latitude.

I think that you may not remember this correctly. I was working as a geodetic surveyor during the era of the conversion and recall the differences being much less. To kind of refresh my memory, I looked up a geodetic control point in Kansas and compared the NAD27 coordinates with the current NAD83 (for charting and navigation purposes identical to WGS 84 coordinates) the difference between the two is about 47 meters for that particular reference point. I think that the largest differences you're going to find between the two are in Alaska where it was on the order of 120-130 meters. That's for the US though. In response to the question about Africa, there's no telling. Prior to the development of global Datums generally every country was on it's own, which nay or may not match the rest of the world.

[A Squared]

Like so many discussions on here, they polarise into the two camps of the lovers of brain power and mental agility and the lovers of all things green and magenta. I am an Airbus pilot and I make it my business to find out every little nuance of how the FMGC works and what little tricks are out there to make the system do all the different things I could want at different stages of flight. That seems to me just common sense and professionalism, and I have no time whatsoever for the whining ex-Boeing pilots who are completely lost over stuff they should have picked up long ago and who just say the Airbus is rubbish. This tiny handful of negative aviators usually make a great play of 'airmanship' to cover up their professional inadequacies. It is totally unacceptable to me for a pilot to be on any aircraft for a reasonable period of time and just to be sat there having no idea what advanced functions exist and making no effort to find out.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there. For myself, I know my FMS pretty well, and I could certainly whip up a traffic pattern in short order for any runway in the database. I hope that the day never comes when I need a magenta line to tell me how to fly a visual pattern on a nice sunny day.

You are way off base in assuming that not needing a magenta line is necessarily the same as not knowing how to use one.