University Air Squadron Student hours - JAR/EASA UK PPL

[AOJM]

Hello all,

A few of may remember that I started a thread back in February 2012 regarding the use of UAS instruction hours being accredited towards the issue of a PPL - which can be found here: http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/477786-uas-hours-counting-towards-ppl.html

I have until recently been unable to move ahead with gaining my licence - life is hard :ugh:

In that thread (the legendary GTE) pointed out the following;

----
From LASORS 2010...


Quote:
Any previous flying experience in single-engine piston
(Land) aeroplanes gained during any Service Elementary
Flying Training Courses including the UAS Flying Course
(that commenced prior to November 2000, or incomplete
courses from any period of time) may be counted
towards the requirements for the grant of a JAR-FCL
PPL(A). Applicants wishing to claim credits against these
requirements will be required to attend a Registered
Facility or approved FTO and provide logbook evidence of
their training (certified by their military course instructor)
to the Chief Flying Instructor. The CFI will then establish a
course of training taking into account previous experience
to ensure that the specific requirements of C1.2 have
been met.

In addition to any flying training required (where there
is a shortfall of requirements), applicants will be
required to complete one cross-country flight of at least
270km (150nm), during which full stop landings at two
aerodromes other than the aerodrome of departure shall
be made, pass all JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge
examinations* and pass the PPL(A) skill test.

* If the graduate is now a UK QSP(H) credits will be
given for the Navigation & Radio Aids and Meteorology
examinations.
(Section C1, page 6).

Presumably a UAS cadet who does not become a Qualified Service Pilot (QSP), qualifies as having done "incomplete courses from any period of time" ?

G
-------

Which I have acknowledge as their interpretation of a 'yes' use the hours of incomplete EFT syllabus training to gain a private licence. However, we go on to the recent implementation of the EASA licensing policy for Military Service Pilots (MSP's).

They have created a Military Accreditation Scheme (MAS) through a meeting with 22 Group and the CAA to allow EFT Graduates and above the credits towards the issue of a licence but they appear to have left the UAS students out.

Whilst I appreciate all the flying instruction I was blessed with recieving I wouldn't like it to go waste, can anyone put some light into the ambiguous issue and find a way for UAS hours to be counted towards the issue of a licence?

It would save me from heartbreak, the few thousand I do not have and the will to revisit the basics of flight to accredit the hours. As well god knows hour many others across 14 UAS's in a position similar to myself.


Thanks in advance

AOJM

Sources: CAP804 (CAA) Page 463 Part O - Credits for military pilots - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804rfs.pdf

[BEagle]

Unfortunately, ever since the RAF dumbed down UAS training, 22Gp won't accept that it meets Part-FCL requirements. So consider yourselves screwed by your own system....:mad:

However, UAS training is still accepted towards the NPPL (SSEA). See http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2010.pdf pp 5-7. So you can obtain an NPPL, then convert it to a LAPL(A) and thence to a Part-FCL PPL(A). Regrettably this tortuous process is the simplest way to maximise the benefits of your experience, unless HQ UAS can persuade 22Gp to review its accreditation policies.

[AOJM]

Thanks BEagle, appreciated.

Given the problems that many people face with getting into flying at the moment it would be useful for them to reconstruct the syllabus to allow students to get the most out of what they provide, if there was a obligation join I would understand but why give someone flying lessons and then leave them back on the streets with nothing.

Do you think it's worth trying to get into contact with someone from HQ UAS? I feel that the problem is way above my head and unlikely to be resolved.

[BEagle]

Perhaps your UAS Sqn Cdr could take the point to HQ UAS? I think that there used to be an annual UAS Sqn Cdrs' conference which could well provide a suitable opportunity if it still exists?

When the UASs were dumbed down to their current level in Oct 2005, the government stated in the House of Lords that: "There have been no changes made to the standards of recruitment and training" Which now seems to have been yet another Labour lie - or perhaps no-one told 22Gp?

See Royal Air Force: University Air Squadrons: 17 Oct 2005: Hansard Written Answers and Statements - TheyWorkForYou (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2005-10-17c.111.6)

[sp6]

Hi AOJM,

I have mixed sympathies for you. As a PPL instructor at an RAF Flying Club, I am keen to recruit our UAS current and ex CP's into the club. This is for two reasons, the first so that I can some instructing revenue in conversion training, exam supervision and solo x/c supervision. The second is to help the club grow, remian in profit and to increase flying.

Our club mandate is to provide discounted private flying to current, reserve and retired service personnel. We are heavily subsidised (ie no hangarage or landing fees) and enjoy fantastic facilities compared to the local civilian flying clubs. Without new members who support the club, we cannot continue to offer the rates we do (especially for JR's - CP's count as JR's).

Converting your UAS flying into a PPL will not cost 000's at an RAF club. Given the fact that you have enjoyed superb training (better than ppl std imho), in a superb acft (try a knackered C152 instead of a shiny Tutor) and a great social life, perhaps you should consider giving something back, and if that means £3-400 to your local RAFFC, then that in a small way supports private flying on base.

I have helped one UAS CP, and one partial EFT gradute get their PPL. Both were very simple and quick operations due to their flying abilty & standard. The club benefited from their membership and their rental of the club's aircraft.

cheers

SP6

ps my "personal" requirement for remuneration means I can justify to the missus the weekends I give up to fly at the club. Nobody instructs to make a mint! I think I have just earnt enough to pay my petrol and my class 1 medical from 2012's flying!

[sp6]

Hi Beagle,

I was interested in your post about the NPPL, but I read the link and found:

"University Air Squadron Flying Training. Pilots who have received formal flying training at a UAS shall receive full accreditation for such flying training. No accreditation will be given for
‘air experience’ flying conducted by pilots who are neither current QFIs nor holders of civil pilot licences containing valid FI(A) Ratings."


but this still seems to imply that ground exams, solo x/c and a skills test are still required - so therefore a CP might as well go for a JAR PPL unless they have any medical issues.

I'll be doing my next UAS "recruitment" pitch shortly so this post is great timing!

AOJM - I had a quick trawl through the original post. - "The rule i've heard is that for every military hour you can add 10 mins when coverting to civvi hours.

Although I prefer the idea of logging in two seperate books with two seperate rules as i've had to wait at the hold for over 30 mins before.. would of counted in civvi terms.. hehe"

Realistically, a "brakes off" time of five minutes before TO time, and "Brakes on" five minutes after will be an approximation of actual times. I'm still going off to the local UAS's will a handful of little blue ppl logbooks for them, and some grumpy words if there aren't completed properly!

Mercifully I have enough civvy hours that my military hours can sit in a different log book just like my microlight hours do - I keep three concurrent logbooks! I'm tempted to take up ballooning so I can add a fourth.....

cheers SP6

[Whopity]

The rule i've heard is that for every military hour you can add 10 mins when coverting to civvi hours.Indeed I have heard this many times but I have never seen it applied, which leads me to believe its a bit more folklore.

[LAI]

I seem to remember that it was actually stated somewhere in LASORS, but I believe the rule was something along the lines of +10% of total hours, rather than a number of minutes per sortie.

I'm not sure about CAP804 though, will have to have a look.

[Orangaphobia]

I am not suggesting that I am an authority on the legislation - I find some of it fairly challenging to interpret. However I was awarded a PPL in Nov 2012 primarily using my UAS hours. This was under the new EASA guidelines.

I did a civilian conversion to PPL (by way of a GAPAN Scholarship) which took about ~10 hours. The majority of the PPL content was raced over due to 100+ UAS hours.

The UAS flying did not cover certain aspects however.

The following are issues in direct conversion.

1. Qualifying cross country.
-You can potentially negotiate this with your UAS - As I had achieved my PFB & completed all the advanced syllabus there was a provisional 'yes' given to me in regards to completing the X-country.
- the issue is that QFIs aren't particularly keen on full stop solo landings
- there is also the issue of approaching civilian bases, dealing with controlled airspace, learning overhead joins etc - all entirely possible to overcome but must be thought about.

2. Medical
- You are still required to get a Class 2 medical regardless of whether you have been declared fit by OASC etc.

3. Aircraft
- You will need a couple of hours on type - I did my test in a C-152... It was VERY different to the shiny EA tutor. No GPS for a start...

4. Test
- Obviously you will still need to pay and carry out a normal test

5. Payment
- as normal to the tune of £180 to the CAA

6. UAS logbook
- The UAS need to stamp your log book - There are references to completion of training certificates. I did not bother with this, and just sent off my signed log book (a civilian one not my military one.)

So in conclusion,

It is currently possible to convert your hours. However, it wouldn't surprise me if this ceased to be the case as people (read CAA/EASA) grapple with the new legislation.

The UAS however can only provide ~80% of a PPL, as you still need to convert onto type, do the cross country and the test. I was lucky enough to be able to do this for free but price it out as you will - there is still a significant investment to be made, but enormously discounted thanks to the UAS.

Please let me know if I can clarify anything.

[U563]

AOJM,

I'm in a similar position to you, trying to use my mostly UAS hours, combined with fulfilling the remaining requirements at a civilian school, to get my PPL under EASA. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get any clarity on the subject.

The flying school were initially encouraged after speaking to someone at the CAA who interpreted CAP804 as implying that the hours would count, but that there would be no further exemptions (which made sense). Then, I was told that another student in a similar position ran into some problems having submitted his completed application, along with his stamped orange UAS logbook (I am yet to meet the student, so this is anecdotal and I don't have much detail). I am told he is now applying again but under the JAR rules, which you can do apparently...if...

"Training commenced in accordance with JAR-FCL will be fully credited for the issue of an EASA licence, provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest."

Could it be argued that your training commenced under JAR? I might have a go, since my UAS hours are 3-4 years old, and I have done some sporadic civvie training at various times in the interim.

Orangaphobia...I'm encouraged that you didn't have any trouble. I wonder if it all came down to sending the UAS hours in a civilian logbook?

I'd be interested to hear of anyone else's experiences, it will be a shame if it comes down to nppl->lapl-->ppl. But it sounds like there is hope!

On another note - SP6, are most of the RAF flying clubs keen for new members (even civilian/ex-UAS) or is it specific to your area? I might contact my local club having read your posts, I'd always assumed it was current serving members only

[Orangaphobia]

The civvie flying club at our base definitely accepts current and former UAS students. I think most work on having a 'link' to the RAF in some way.

[sp6]

U563. I can only speak for Leuchars Flying Club. Our rules are currently serving or retired reg, reservist, RAF, RN, Army. UAS members welcome as they bring our average age down a bit!

We'd welcome OOA too. If you wanted to get a chunk of flying in cheap, a fab holiday flying around Scotland, or a bit of instruction, we could accomodate you. Island hopping in the Orkneys or a West Coast tour have all been done in our aircraft. I can brief on most of the Scottish light aircraft strips and Perth is 20 mins for practicing grass field (in the summer).

I'd like us to start microlighting too, though probably only at weekends due to the sharp pointy things during the week....

[giloc]

Was there ever a definitive answer to the question of whether UAS training can be used towards the experience requirements for an EASA PPL(A)?

CAP 804, Part O - includes the following:

"Flight hours in military aircraft as logged in UKAF military logbooks are recognised and accepted toward meeting the licence, class and type rating experience prerequisites of Part-FCL licences, ratings or certificates as appropriate."

That seems to suggest unambiguously that they can - has anyone had any recent experiences that could confirm this?

Ta.

[GipsyMagpie]

Yes, that is true (been there, used the uas hrs). I can also state that the taxi time allowance is no longer in place. It was in LASORS and is not in current rules. Don't believe me? Just consult the MAS form in Part O. Which incidentally you may need to supply alongside your PPL application. I did and it smoothed the process. Look at the section on hours - it says in section 5 "Do not add taxi time to military logbook times"

I know the form doesn't precisely cater for your circumstances but it worked for me. Might be able to justify a free aerobatic rating while you are there. Usually if you finish EFT you can get one. However, read section 3a, Section 4, Part P, Page 47. All you need is 5 certified hours in your logbook...just find an agreeable UAS instructor and you are done. Good luck

[U563]

Can confirm I was also able to use my UAS hours towards an EASA PPL.

No issues, but did have to write up the equivalent PPL ex. numbers for the UAS hours in the logbook

[GipsyMagpie]

I can cast iron guarantee your UAS hours do count towards an NPPL. This then definitely counts towards an EASA PPL. Search for NPPL for reference.