"Many Madrid ATCO's are hoping for an accident to happen "

[1stspotter]

Just came across a rather shocking blogsite written by a Madrid Air Traffic Controller. He is Supervisor for the Madrid Terminal Area.


AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IN SPAIN: Controversial text (http://bit.ly/130S0zl)

The controller describes in detail the events in the Madrid terminal area on the 26th of July and reveals information I have not read on Pprune before.

I am aware of the many opinions by Pprune member stating Spanish ATC is one of the worst in the world, Europe for sure.
This blog confirms it all!

He also gives an insight in quality of training of controllers.
And also about the cost cutting of AENA, the organization responsible for air traffic control. The same company is apparently responsible for operating the airports. As Ryanair does not like to pay too much for airport fees, a penalty given by ATC to Ryanair (lower flightlevel) is not imaginary.

a quote:
"May I begin by confessing a secret? Many air traffic controllers in Spain are hoping for an accident to happen. The trampling over our working terms and conditions has been so painful and the passivity of supervisory institutions (not to mention the lack of independence between providers and supervisors) has been such, that we believe that only the investigation of an accident by different international bodies will unravel the mess and "normalise" our situation. To talk about a death toll of 500 passengers would be scaremongering, but to ignore what has recently happened would be plainly foolish. And I think we have already been foolish enough!
In any case, it is not my intention to write about conditions, I would just prefer to outline the shortcomings of an air traffic control service provider, even if there is much more to be said about the former."

A lot of shocking detail. Wish the international press and politicians spent some more time on investigating this issue. Seems a lot more serious than KLM, Ryanair and other airlines minimal fuel policy.

[DavidWoodward]

I'm sure it will take an accident for things to change. Management will want to lower costs and will push their luck until something major enough happens that the world starts asking questions. I'm sure they'll try to blame the individual though.

[fantom]

I do not believe a word of this dreadful accusation.

ATC in Spain maybe overworked and underpaid (I don't know) but they do not want anyone killed; that is just silly.

[His dudeness]

Have a look at how the Spanish government has handled ATC for the last year or so and then you should know why the morale isn´t exactly skyhigh.

I dislike flying in Spain because of ATCs service level (or rather the lack of it) but I honestly I don´t believe a Spanish ATCO really wishes the dead of innocent passengers. IMO thats just an expression of how desperate the situation has become for them.

[Tarq57]

I would find it extremely difficult to believe any ATCO, anywhere in the world, would wish for an accident, regardless of how poorly they have been treated by their management, their regulator, and their government.

OTOH, I believe that there are a few (I know of at least one) who think that an accident is inevitable.

[westhawk]

Another tempest in teapot.

I don't find it much of a stretch that someone might actually say something like that at all. People speak all manner of ill when they're upset about something. It's like the petulant child wishing harm upon their parent because they weren't given any ice cream. After a period of reflection do they really mean it?

However most reasonable people expect that adults are held to account for what they say to a higher degree than children and professionals to higher standard than the average Joe. Therefore such a comment will not be met with the sort of empathy the person uttering it might have expected. But based upon the sorts of garbage I've heard spouting from angry lips in my lifetime I have no problem believing someone said such a thing. Though I do have a feeling they wouldn't say it in public!

[MadDog Driver]

Of course no ATCO wants an accident to happen. For exactly the same reason that a pilot hating his FTL,salary etc wont want an accident to happen : The dead people will be in some form or another be blamed on him not saying 'enough is enough' ...before that accident happened.

[aldegar]

Many air traffic controllers in Spain are hoping for an accident to happen

NO, NO, NO and NO. I'm DEFINITELY NOT hoping for an accident to happen.

We've been through a lot (still are), but this is a crazy statement.

[Yaw String]

Where did it go?

[JW411]

Good question.

[Yaw String]

1st Spotter(or whoever posted it)..can you PM me the original thanks..

[TBSC]

This one?

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/504091-many-madrid-atcos-hoping-accident-happen.html

[Hotel Tango]

No one in aviation "hopes" for an accident and I don't believe that that is what is meant. More likely the intended meaning is that it will take an accident (and subsequent investigation) to bring to light what is happening in Spain.

[sleeper]

I think that what is meant is:



It takes an accident for things to be investigated and change.

[blind pew]

Nothing new.
Had a friend in 1981 who was a controller at Chicago but due to family commitments had moved to Swiss control at Zurich.
He tried to warn them of their practices having had several incidents himself and was rewarded with a Der Spiegel on his chair with the headline "Auslander Raus".
Left and went back to the US without a job as Reagan had sacked all the controllers.
Took twenty years for the inevitable to happen although I had a couple of close calls.

[carlosii]

Many air traffic controllers in Spain are hoping for an accident to happen

Didn't they have one already? In 1977 - if I'm not mistaken? Would of thought that they learned from this one and that Spanish ATC would be top notch by all means in Europe after that, but seems that this wasn't the case after all...

[Hotel Tango]

If you are refering to the midair, they were under military control because of a (civil) strike. Besides, you can´t really compare 1977 with 2013.

[autolycus224]

In my experience (42 years Aircrew and ATCO), ATCOs just had to play the safety card to frighten management. Spain's ATCOs were always the envy of Europe as they were the best paid, were scheduled to be on duty the least number of hours (note: Not "worked"), retired the earliest (52 on 100% pension until 65) and the name "Spanish practices", originated where?


Spain is in the S**t. Everyone has to bear the burden of the current crisis and I am afraid the Spanish controllers are not excluded.

Shame on this ATCO for a most unprofessional comment. I would fire him on the spot.:=

[ATC Watcher]

I know I am wasting my time , but cannot resit to comment :

1 Many air traffic controllers in Spain are hoping for an accident to happen.
Total bullSh*t . No one wants that. The guy is frustated, understandably, but he should write his frustrations in his mother tongue. In case he really means this, then he should take a long medical vacation.

2 calosii :Didn't they have one already? In 1977 - if I'm not mistaken?
You are ; 1977 is Teneriffe collision and had very little to do with the controller on duty . Read your classics..

3 Hotel Tango : If you are refering to the midair, they were under military control because of a (civil) strik
You are mixing up Spain and France; The Nantes collision was in 1973 over France.

4. Blind pew : Had a friend in 1981 who was a controller at Chicago but due to family commitments had moved to Swiss control at Zurich.
I think I know who you are talking about. The "familly commitments " were rather "Reagan made" no ? . the reasons why he left were also a bit different as I recall . And suggesting this was a warning for Ueberlingen is a bit dishonnest : the procedures and the people in place in 2002 in Zurich ACC were totally different than those in 1981.

5,autolycus224 :I would fire him on the spot
Good, that would solve the problem:hmm: . Ex Ryanair management by chance ? :E

[Hotel Tango]

ATC Watcher, you are of course right. I answered with a little too much haste after a few glasses of Merlot. :O

[carlosii]

I was just referring to that it's kind of rude to wish something bad to happen when it did happen on Spanish soil, yes, a long time ago, and yes, mainly because of pilot error, but still... And according to this guy nothing has changed about the controllers skills of English and the procedures to maintain this skill... So it kind of has some links to the past as well, as miscommuniation and poor language skills sure helped a lot to form the accident back in '77, and might as well just "help" to arrange something like this again... Anyway, flying to Spain in April, hopefully will get back here in one piece later...

[ATC Watcher]

Hotel tango : If it is because of the merlot you are forgiven ..:ok:

Carlosii : Spain had a lot of accidents and many of those were in Teneriffe (North) Some could have been easily prevented , had Spain a strong independant safety regulator, Unfortunately despite the accidents very little changed.

I was told recently theat they plan to use again Tenerife North extensively for Charter traffic. Since nothing changed much there since the 70,s , especially not the weather pattern, one can wonder the merit of that decision and wait for the accidents to come back ? Maybe this is also what the Spanish controller here wanted to say.

[30W]

I think this forum article neads reading in full, rather than the small element quoted to understand it's context.

One hugely frustrated employee, amongst an organistaion of many others. The full article goes on to question training/examination quality and other such areas of concern.

Not for one moment do I believe ANY Spanish controller genuinely wants an accident - but would prefer to think that he, and many of his colleagues, believe that only an accident, involving foreign investigative participation, will reveal fully the sad state of current Spanish ATC provision.

I regularly fly to/from Spanish airports (not MAD/BCN admittedly), and have done since the days when the likes of PMI/AGP were procedural. Whilst I find the current quality of service hugely questionable, not for one minute do I think they genuinely want an accident. I have never worked on the other side of the RT to such a frustrated, de-motivated set of individuals - the question is why have things deterioated so far without being checked by International agencies?

I have never in recent years received ANY formal response to a filed safety report from AENA - so huge inaction and disinterest on behalf of the ANSP:ugh:

It's about time IFATCA/IFALPA paid the current situation SERIOUS attention!

ATC Watcher - I know your finger is far closer to the pulse than my own, but seriously doubt the 'Charters' will stand being pushed from TFS to TFN - most of the resorts are far closer to TFS, and they will NOT stand any forced move in detrement to their customers. Neither could TFN withstand the volumes of traffic that TFS handles.

30W
(Pilot not ATC)

[ATC Watcher]

30 W : I hope you are right. But in 2011 TFN handled 4 Millions pax ( double of what it was in 2000) TFN today has half the traffic of TFS , which it was supposed to replace in 1978 .

Yes, the North european tourists generally prefer to go to TFS, but the local and business population prefers TFN , so TFN was never closed as planned and is now ( this is what I was told ) even " marketed" and trying to attact new businesses/airlines.

And the sudden fog still comes in a few minutes, just as always.

[Rwy in Sight]

And as usual their concern surfaced only when their T&C deteriorated!

Rwy in Sight

[Daermon ATC]

I'll start stating that I'm a spanish atco. Obviously I could be faking this and it would be impossible for you to know, so take my post with the usual credibility for internet forums. In any case I speak only for myself so do not quote me stating that "spanish atcos" have said XXX ...

The original statement about a controller wishing an accident to happen is neither true not false but something in between. I know this is very nuanced and I'll probably be flamed for it but I'll try to clarify it.

Obviously no one wishes for any person to die. Period. Under any circumstance. But... if some nefarious evil prompts me with the option to have one dead or 10 then that single one will have to go.

I assume the author of that letter had something like that in mind. While under no circumstances wishing for an accident, there are obvious systemic flaws that will cause accidents in a not too distant future. The thinking might go that if there is one accident that will draw the attention to it and if there is a proper investigation (that is a big IF in spain... have a look at the Madrid Spanair accident "investigation") then corrective action might be taken to prevent a higher number of casualties further down the line.

We all know aviation is based on "Tombstone technology" in the sense that changes are only implemented once there are sufficient deaths to justify the costs. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't, but it is a fact.

Take for example the DC10 cargo door problem that lead to American Airlines 96 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_96) and which wasn't solved untill the accident of Turkish Airlines 981 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_981) added sufficient bodycount.

I think this is the general meaning of the originial letter, but I would be second-guessing it's author which I don't know personally.

Ah, by the way, comments such as
And as usual their concern surfaced only when their T&C deteriorated!
are absolutely accurate but for other reasons that the author thinks being his intention obviously pejorative.
If Aena had only slashed our salaries by half that would be a loss for us but would have no impact on safety. If Aena had left our salaries alone but reduced our rest time during shifts, increased our annual workload, disregarded sector capacities (see http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/503942-fog-overwhelms-bcn-23rd-dec.html ) amidst a lot of further niceties that would impact safety regardless of our salary.

Since the Ministry of Works did both things at once, our concern about our salaries and safety have emerged at the same time. I don't have the numbers at hand but if I remember correctly in 2010 Spain had 47 class A incidents (near misses), France about 10 and the rest of european countries two, one or none. That is an indisputable fact (or would be if I provided the link... I think it was on the eurocontrol ACE report...) which points to a serious breakdown in safety and which can not be blamed directly on the atcos (they were esentially the same as the previous years).

As usual this is only the tip of the iceberg and the problem is much worse... which gets us again at the point where an accident would perhaps shed some light into this cesspit and perhaps save some lives further down the line. I wouldn't want an accident under any circumstances but I can not rule out the possibility that the net result would be positive in the long run... and I certainly agree with you if you think that is a very disturbing thing to say in our profession. :sad: