IMC privileges abroad ??

[Island Hopper]

Just wondering...
If you have an IMC rating and want to fly, say in France, but as you're cruising around, it gets a bit too cloudy to be classed VFR, is it a case of being forced to land, because you cannot exercise the privileges of your IMC rating, anywhere but within the UK?

IH

[The Greaser]

IMC rating is a UK only thing - it gives you no rights to fly in IMC outside the UK. So you are absolutely correct.

[Island Hopper]

Are any of the limitations of Visual Flight Rules different in France?

[Aussie Andy]

Essentially no, but there are some details to look out for. I haven't been yet but expect to do so soon (May). There have been lots of discussions about flying in France in the Private Flying forum, so suggest you take a look there (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63)

[Fuji Abound]

There was some comment before on this forum together with the suggestion that in France in particular and also Germany there is effective acceptance of our IMC rating. The French have a similar national rating i believe as do the Germans. Does anyone have any more information on this?

[bookworm]

There is no acceptance of the IMC rating abroad in the sense that I think you mean, Fuji Abound.

The Germans have a CVFR rating (or at least used to) which is required for a German PPL for VFR flight in Class C airspace. It used to be the case that the German authorities accepted, informally at least, that an IMC rated pilot would be allowed to fly VFR in class C. I've also heard reports that the German authorities do not require any rating for a pilot with a foreign PPL to fly VFR in class C.

For IFR flight in France or Germany (or anywhere outside the UK) you need an Instrument Rating.

[skydriller]

I can assure you there is no French IMC Rating, only the IR rating.:(

For your info. French VMC is...

In Class D/E, 8km visability above FL100 and 5km below, 1500m horizontally and 300m vertically from cloud. In Class G, 8km visability above FL100 and 5km between FL100 and S, below S visability can be as low as 1500m or 30 seconds flight time distance. Above S 150m horizontally and 300m verticallyfrom cloud, below S clear of cloud.

S is defined as 900m(3000ft)AMSL or 300m(1000ft) AGL, whichever is higher.

Additionally if weather minima fall below 5km vis and 450m cloudbase, Special VFR may be requested by a pilot , but there is no national standard, it is decided locally at each aerodrome.

There is no rule saying you need to be in sight of the surface however......

[FlyingForFun]

Am I right in thinking that, although French rules allow "VFR on top", our UK (CAA or JAA) licenses don't allow us to take advantage of this when flying in France?

FFF
-------------

[Aussie Andy]

FFF - that's my understanding: we're goverened by the priveleges of our licenses, so just because a French PPL is allowed VFR on to, it has no impact on the conditions we must adhere to. Its a shame that the IMC rating doesn't work in reverse though!

[skydriller]

It doesnt really make any difference to me because I only have a JAA-PPL, no IMC. But if you did have an IMC rating from the UK is there anything to stop you from flying VFR on top, as your licence restrictions would no longer require you to fly in sight of the surface.....its now IMC rated, right? Would this be legal???

just wondered.....

regards, SD.

[distaff_beancounter]

FFF & AA ..... you have certainly got me thinkimg now!

I hold a CAA PPL & IMC rating. I was aware that the IMC is not valid outside the UK.

However .... I have always assumed that I could fly, in France, complying with French VFR rules.

I assumed that I could legally fly in VMC on top ..... so long as I could find a gap to get back down again :D

BUT .... what FFF & AA are saying also seems logical

So please, can anyone definitely confirm, when we fly in France, whether we should be complying with French or UK VFR rules?

..... cos I am totally confused :confused:

[QNH 1013]

DB I would guess (only a guess cos I'm no lawyer) that with a UK PPL and IMC you could fly VFR "on top" in France as well as the UK. My logic is that the rule requiring you to be in sight of the surface is a basic PPL licence restriction, not a restriction in the definition of VMC. Once you have an IMC rating, this restriction is removed from your licence.

VMC does not require you to be in sight of the surface unless you are taking advantage of the allowance for the visibility to be down as low as 1500m PROVIDING you are at less than 3000', less than 140 knots, and IN SIGHT OF THE SURFACE. Under these circumstances visibilities as low as 1500m are still VMC. I think this mention of "in sight of the surface" is what confuses a lot of people into thinking all VMC has to be in sight of the surface. In fact it is only in this special case.

For simplicity I have not listed all the VMC criteria for different altitudes and classes of airspace.

[distaff_beancounter]

QNH 1013 .... Thanks for the reply

I like your logic best, especially as it means that I have not been flying illegally in France, on the rare occassions that I have gone in VMC on top :D

[englishal]

...SO whats to stop me taking my UK JAA licence and get a French JAA licence instead and then fly VFR ontop in the UK, as my FJAA licence will now be limited by the French equivalent of the ANO...?

I though the JAA was meant to stop all this rubbish. This is a good reason to get an FAA IR and fly an N reg around europe then you can fly IFR everywhere...

Cheers
EA

[PhilD]

Good point. I've always assumed that although my IMC allows me to fly VFR on top in the UK I can't do it in France without an IR. Is there anything to stop me getting a French (JAR standard) licence on the basis of my UK (JAR standard) licence and legally flying VFR on top in France?
Together we can beat these bureaucrats at their own game...

[distaff_beancounter]

I understand that one proposed scheme is roughly as follows:-

I get an FAA IR, in addition to my existing CAA PPL+IMC rating

I can legally fly a G reg aircraft in UK or France, on either of those licences

Therefore I can legally fly a G reg A/c, from UK to France, & back, all in IMC, as follows:-

Take off in UK to the FIR boundary, exercising the privileges of my CAA licence

From FIR boundary to landing in France, using the privileges of my FAA licence.

OK Folks ..... Pick holes in that idea, please! :rolleyes:

[bookworm]

Why do you think an FAA IR gives you the privileges of an instrument rating while flying a G-reg in France?

[I'm not saying it doesn't, but if you can find me a reference in French legislation to support it I would be a) surprised and b) grateful]

[Keef]

I would be flabbergasted if an FAA IR allowed you to fly a G-reg aircraft in France in IMC. Delighted, too, mind!

Now if the aircraft had the magic "N" on the side it would all be totally different.

[distaff_beancounter]

Bookworm & Keef ..... Yes this was my question!

I have only heard about this scheme recently, by word of mouth, & I have been unable to confirm any legal references to it.

It was a suggested way of getting around the now astronomical costs, of adding an IR to JAA PPL.

I was surprised, as I assumed that a G-reg aircraft could only be flown in France on a UK licence. But apparently a USA airline pilot, holding a FAA-ATPL, can legally fly a G-reg airliner in France, & therefore the same applies to the likes of us flying puddle-jumpers.

As this is all news to me, I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me, might have heard of the idea.

There must be a sad anorak out there, who has actually read, ICAO, JAA & the French regulations, in detail :(