Some landing advice please. A320

[meatlover]

Still on my line training and the inconsistency doesnt help at all.
I've always been taught to break the ROD to about 500 FPM more or less at 50 and start my gradual actual flare at 30 or 20.
This also gives the TRI relief and more chances that he won't interrupt my landing (a lot of them are scared, and usually do put some input).

Today I did not flare enough and landed with 1.4G, and I absolutely feel like crap.
I usually look a little ahead of me, break my ROD at 50, gradually flare at 30 and cut the power at 20, has been working well so far.

The TRI today told me that flaring ONCE only at 30 feet is much easier because you can actually see the nose attitude go up a good amount and hense KNOW for sure you are flaring enough.
He said that because I break my ROD at 50, my flare at 30 is just a gradual pull back on the stick rather than actually feeling the aircrafts nose attitude.
Basically that its harder for me to feel the flare.
Problem is I've used this method all through training so far..

Does anyone have any advice?
Looking for some feedback from the more experienced guys,
Thanks in advance

[tom775257]

I will first state I am not a trainer. This is my experience of going through similar, it feels horrible doing a bad landing, but don't worry, with time it will come to you.

I had an ex Boeing pilot tell me that the trick to landing an A320 is leaving the flare until you scare yourself. Tongue in cheek but true. Flaring too high always leads to a bad landing as you run out of energy and drop out of the sky or push the aircraft onto the runway.

My landing technique A320 series is check sensible ROD into the last 50' feet, don't dive towards the runway OR get shy of the ground! I only start the flare at 20' radalt. After you start the flare, smoothly reduce power to idle during the flare. 'Retard' is a reminder, not an instruction.

If you have a high ROD into the flare, flare a bit higher. If you have a strong headwind and low ROD or very light you might need to flare a bit later.

As well as flaring at the right height, the correct speed is important. Especially on the A321 make sure Vapp is at least 5 kts above the VLS on your PFD once configured.

I was initially taught 30' for the flare, I found it very hard to land. The chief pilot told me "Forget everything you have been taught. Flare at 20', bring thrust to idle at 10." From then on it clicked for me. Good luck.

[Fly3]

50ft is far to high for an A320. Try raising the nose attitude 2 degrees at 30ft (a small check) and look at the far end of the runway to judge the final flare rate onto the runway. Do not delay retarding the thrust levers to idle, the "retard" call is a reminder not an instruction. Select reverse thrust when the main gear touches down which will counteract the tendency of the aircraft to pitch up with spoilers deployment although the elevators will try to do that and control the nose gear onto the ground. Good luck.

[fantom]

Use the Rad Alt. If your airline has auto RA call out for 50/40/30/20 and 10, it's easy.

For guys new I would advise when you hear 50, wake up. 40, start getting ready. 30 begin a very, very slight back-stick, looking at the OTHER end of the rwy. The nose should barely be rising. at 20, just slow the nose rise a little, and at 10, hold the nose absolutely still.

With any luck, you'll feel the wheels kiss.

Simples.

[meatlover]

Thanks for the response and input Tom, much appreciated.
Also, if someone can tell me if it is correct that normally a landing is at 1.2G or 1.3G? I am not sure where to find the correct figures, and also, what exactly is considered a hard landing.

Thanks !

Edit. Thanks Fly and Fantom.
I might try this next time. It does seem like 50 is a bit too early.

[fantom]

It does seem like 50 is a bit too early.

When you have base-trained as many pilots 320/330 as I have, you had better believe me.

[Phil Squares]

Just to echo what fantom said. 50' might be a tad high. 30 is a good ballpark figure.

Also, as has been pointed out, "RETARD" is not a command, but an advisory. Waiting until you hear that command will ensure a longer than necessary landing. My technique is at 30' you check the descent rate, slight pitch change then take off a know width of power. If all is fine, no excessive sink, then the power comes smoothly to idle.

Try some manual thrust landings. Remember the throttle position when you take the active and stand the power up, either CFM or V2500, the thrust lever position for checking the stable spoolup is also the same positon config full on the glide slope.

[bigfatchris]

If anyone else has the same experience as I do, there is often the wiggle wiggle *expect smooth touchdown* crunch.

Loads of factors affect the landing;
Hot runways can cause float.
Heavier aircraft require a slightly higher flare.
Wind strength and local obstacles changing wind direction close to the ground.
Upslope.
Humps in runway.
Lighter aircraft give the feeling of a harder landing due to oleo compression on touchdown.
To name a few...

It's too much to be able to account for so don't be too critical if you don't kiss the Tarmac - the guy next you has thousands of hours and possibly thousands of landings - The person on the left should be pretty good at it!

Avoid messing with the rate of descent too much in the last couple of hundred feet. Early on get on the glide and follow the directors. If the weather is good, keep looking out if the window and doing the squashed fly thing. This should give you the external visual cues early. The artificial horizon is good, in good weather a real one is better!

Don't chase PAPIs at low level. The RoD you had earlier should put you in the right place. Avoid overcorrecting, the airbus will try to smooth out short period variations - by correcting them yourself, the bus then fixes the original perturbation and you have to cancel your previous correction! Sometimes I find I am reminding myself to "let go"! The trainer will crap himself if you say "correcting" and stuff the nose down at low level. Plus you won't get any consistency at 50' if one day you at 800fpm and the next at 500fpm over the threshold.

I would love to hear if anyone has any contradicting advice or additions - I find landing the airbus a real challenge too.

[bigfatchris]

Oh, and the best piece of advice is to get your excuses out early. Good ones include:
* I've been on leave.
* I can't seem to get my seat position right today.
* I hate landing the aircraft when it's heavy/light/windy/wet.
* This runway is shaped like a church spire....

Any others?

[DrJones]

I don't fly the A320 so can't give advice on landing that puppy but as mentioned early the rad alt calls 50, 40 ,30 etc are great indicator to whether your going to slam it in. If they count down too fast chances are you going to slam it in, so just pull back on the yoke to arrest the descent rate. Also don't think about it too much, just go with the flow. I'm sure I slammed the plane in the other day (and when i say slammed I mean slammed) because I was over thinking/complicating the landing because there was a bit of wind and at the last minute got in a pickle and smash!

[Uplinker]

50' is too high for an A330, let alone an A320/321.

Start flare at 20' rad alt. Once flared, reduce thrust levers to idle. Look at the far end of the runway and adjust the pitch attitude so the aircraft is slowly sinking. You will grease it !

Damn, now I've given my secret to everyone!

I came from turbo props and STOL aircraft which had a thick wing and you could hold a level attitude and let them sink on as the lift decayed. This does not work with a thin wing - it will just run out of lift and dump the aircraft onto the tarmac heavily !

Good luck !


U

[RunSick]

I´ve been trough the same not too long ago. Just a few points:
1) Every instructor (willing to do good) will tell you the "secret perfect landing technique". Truth is it works for them, not necessarely for you. Sometimes they can be almost opposite.
2) Don´t stress too much over it. Everyone has been there at some point. Try to do your best. Be open and brief about your shortcomings to the instructor. Tell him what has been happening, what you are planning to do etc. This will show maturity and situational awareness on your part and maybe most important increase the safety of the operation.
3) Now for my secret perfect landing technique....

a) GS/2 is the ROD you must maintain (there´s no fixed value for this) until 50feet. As you know at 50feet the elevator memorizes the position etc etc. (check it in the FCOM) so if you come to this point at the correct speed, with the correct ROD and correct attitude half the work is already done.

b)Don´t fight the last 50 feet of the landing until touchdown, instead fight all the way down until 50ft (aiming to cross as described in point a) and at that point just accept what you´ve got and stop chasing any indication, just focus on the flare.

c) Coming down don´t chase the FD. My control over the aircarft on finals improved A LOT once I stopped paying so much attenction to the FD which actually was just "sucking my mind" and making me become fixated on just one thing. Instead open your scan, look mainly at your ROD (GS/2) and the pitch required to get said ROD. Look at the glide and loc indicators and react to them, not to the FD. Look outside. Use the FD only to "confirm" you are on the right track.

d) Once at 50ft STOP CHASING AND ACCEPT WHAT YOU´VE GOT. Give the ROD a final look and with this info think how much flare input you´ll have to do ONCE YOU REACH 30FT, NOT BEFORE. If crossing with 500fpm you know it will be a small flare, crossing with 700 it will require more input.

d) The rest is... well, supposed to be easy, what can I say :bored: As mentioned before: start flare at 30, smoothly cut the power, look mid to far end, if you feel like floating just let go a bit (do not press down) etc etc.

Happy landings!

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

@Uplinker

I beg to differ. I've also come from Turboprop background and those aircraft had to be flown all the way to touchdown (and woe and betide if you retarded the power levers too early), while on the 320 seems to be okay with arresting the descent at around 30' and taking the thrust anywhere below 40'. Then it just lands itself... :ok:

[fantom]

It does seem like 50 is a bit too early.

50' is too high for an A330, let alone an A320/321.

50' might be a tad high. 30 is a good ballpark figure.
Goodness , why don't you read what I wrote?

50 feet is WHEN YOU WAKE UP.

30 feet is when anything happens.

It's no wonder you are not learning; you are not listening.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Try and be pretty consistent in your positioning of the aircraft so that you're in the same place every time you get to 50 feet above the threshold, i.e. rate of descent, speed, lateral positioning should all be correct. A good landing tends to follow from a good approach, if one day you're doing -400 fpm over the threshold and the next -800fpm due to your positioning relative to the ideal profile then it's going to make the judgement of the flare more difficult, especially when you're new to type.

The biggest problem I see is people chasing the "glide" at low level, especially in the last couple of hundred feet, and effectively de-stabilising the approach to a certain extent. Don't chase the PAPI's at low level ( below a couple of hundred feet ) you should be going for your aiming point on the runway. Accept what you've got at 50 feet, look down towards ( but not at ) the end of the runway and start a gentle flare at about 25/30ft assuming you've been at a sensible 700 ish fpm. Smoothly take the power off almost simultaneously and keep that gentle descent rate till you touch.

And don't worry about the odd cruncher, we all do them from time to time!

WBV

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Oh and Ps, try not to do the double flare thing, the check at 50 and the second flare at 30, it tends to eat up runway. If you can get into the habit of making it all one smooth progressive flare, it works much better. It'll come, don't worry!

WBV

[PantLoad]

It might help to have a read of the "LANDING" in the Flight Crew
Training Manual. This will help, I'm sure.

Basically, at 50 feet RA, the 'system' changes from normal pitch law
to flare law. At this point, the auto trim stops, and the aircraft's
pitch attitude is 'memorized.'

So, because of this, it's important to maintain a stable pitch attitude
as you go through 50 feet RA. In other words, have it in the slot prior
to 50 feet RA....keep it there.

Now, at 30 feet RA, we're going to think about starting a flare. At 30
feet RA, the aircraft slowly, gradually begins pitching down....a total
of two degrees over eight seconds. This logic is to force the pilot to
flare, just as he would in any other aircfraft.

Under normal conditions, at this 30 feet RA, the pilot pulls the
thrust levers to idle. However, as Airbus states, the pilot comes
to idle when best adapted. Gusty wind conditions, maybe keep the
thrust in there a bit longer. If stable wind conditions, but just a tad
high and/or fast, maybe you'll come to idle a bit earlier. In any event,
thrust must be at idle before touchdown.

So, 30 feet RA is where it's all happening. Thrust idle, start a nice
flare, fly it right on to the runway. Nice and easy....

I have to say, don't worry about the landings....I've made more than
my share of 'firm' landings in my career. What you're looking for is
a nice, stable approach, and a touchdown on the thousand foot marks...
really, in pratice, just a bit beyond. You want to touch down at the
proper point at the proper speed...begin the deceleration process.

You'll be just fine....

Fly safe,


PantLoad

[fmgc]

At 20' raise the nose a little chop the power gently and hold the attitude, look down the end of the runway. Accept what happens, it will likely be positive but not heavy.

DO NOT try to grease it when you are learning.

Leave the niceties until you have got a consistent technique for putting the jet down at the right spot on the runway.

Once you get a feel for that you can start to work for the greaser.

I have got over 10,000 hours on the A320 family and still can't get overly consistent with it.

Don't listen to the cabin crew debrief either!

[Uplinker]

Hey fantom;

That's a spiky response for a trainer - cool your jets. The thread starter said 50', so in effect I was agreeing with you and others.


Stuck in an ATR;

Well, OK, maybe the Dash 8-Q400 didn't quite work that way ! The 146 did though. It had a thick STOL wing and gently drifted down. So did the shed. My point was that the A320 wing won't provide lift all the way as the speed reduces. Once it gets below a certain speed - BANG - the lift is gone, so you need to fly the Airbus down onto the runway.


U

[Fly3]

And remember that it is more important to touchdown in the correct place rather than achieve a greaser halfway down the runway.

[fantom]

cool your jets.

You are correct.

Cooled...

[PENKO]

Whilst I agree with the above, focussing on the correct touchdown point will more often than not lead to firm landings. At least, that is my personal experience. I changed onto the Airbus with quite a few hours of Boeing time under my belt, but for the first few days of line training I struggled to land the aircraft decently because I was so focussed on the correct touchdown point: the training flights were out of the shortest runway in the network!

My landings and my confidence improved dramatically when I landed on a 3000m runway. Not because I floated the aircraft, which I did not, but because I wasn't fixated on the TD-point and focussed on other visual cues to fine tune the landing!

[EMIT]

Passing the threshold (so, at approximately 50 ft) shift your visual focus point a long way down the runway.
In that way, your peripheral vision will show the descent rate.
Flare enough to almost stop the descent rate.

Do not switch your vision point to inside anymore, because that will destroy the continuity of your descent rate estimation.

My experience is that every landing that was less than soft, I had not shifted vision far enough down the runway, or I did something like a quick check of airspeed during the flare.

[TyroPicard]

PantLoad...
At 30feet RA, the aircraft slowly, gradually begins pitching down....a total of two degrees over eight seconds.True or false?
FCOM says it reduces to 2 degrees nose down pitch over 8 seconds. It never reaches 2 deg nose down because the PF flares for the landing, but that is the "target". So the nose down pitch rate varies with the attitude memorised at 50' RA, hence the importance of being in the slot with the correct pitch at 50'.

[Flaperon75]

What a great thread......! and as you can see from the posts so far - everyone is an expert and everyone seems to do it slightly differently!

The truth is that landing a jet is like most things - the more you do it the more 'innate ' it becomes so that really your sixth sense tells you when and how much to flare. We've all been where you are now and believe me - a 1.4G landing is nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing to worry about. I remember in my line training having 1 or 2 that could beat that!

It's also worth mentioning that no matter how long you've been flying and how good you think you are, you'll still thump it in from time to time. I find that just as I'm going through a purple patch and think I've got it sussed, reality bites and I realise I am human after all with a couple of more 'average' arrivals.....

As I say - the important thing is not to worry too much about it and try and learn from experience! Enjoy!

[Flaperon75]

btw....

Flare enough to almost stop the descent rate

.... was my favourite bit of advice! That's where I've been going wrong!

Flaps

[thermostat]

One of the methods I used, was to watch the auto pilot at work during the landing and simply copy it. Remember that mathematics plays a big part in flying and computers. The aircraft normally approaches at a 2.5 to 3 degree nose up attitude on a 3 degree slope. At 15 ft AGL, raise the nose to 6 degrees and lock it there. Simple.
At 50 ft slowly reduce thrust to be at idle at 30 ft. The reason you can do this on hi-bypass engines is because the N1 fan produces 75% of the thrust, so when the thrust is reduced, the free-wheeling N1 (flywheel) fan continues to produce thrust (at a reducing rate). Not like the old straight jets that would reduce thrust to idle immediately, causing you to fall out of the sky. Watch the AP and copy it.
T

[Jetdriver_JAT]

One of the cadets I was jumpseating in my company landed with 1.9G... :E My physician is still trying to fix the spine..

Good luck with your landings.. My personal experience is dont flare too early, will make you fly 5 feet above the runway.. High weights always make the airplane easier to land, especially if equipped with HGW landing gear, it will behave like an unadequipped teenager, the closer to DOW your LW is :rolleyes:

[de facto]

Do not underestimate the fact that a landing is a visual maneuver,you MUST look down the runway to judge your flare input.
By raising your head,your hands should follow by pulling gently until you see no runway rise,you are then parallel to the runway.
If you initiate the flare too early,you will have to flare more slowly and therefore land long.
If you initiate the flare too late,you will need to make an abrupt pitch much may end up ok but can cause positive landing and if with some thrust still in,a bounce.

As mentionnned above , at 50 feet your focus is primarly on the runway as your speed should be set as well as thrust setting.
At 40 feet,the aimiing point will start rising towards you which is the time to lift your head and look 2/3 down the runway and watch the rise.
By the time your head is up,the 30 ft will come and its time to gently pull the nose up WHILE reducing the thrust.
Do not reduce the thrust after you pulled up as it induces long flares/floats,lower pitch at landing and higher vgtd which for your morale is apparently not good.:E

When the visibility is low ,dark etc all clues should be used including RA and feel of the pants.

Good luck.

At 50 ft slowly reduce thrust to be at idle at 30 ft
Come on you cant be serious,do you even know how the autopilot does a landing??
I vote this the worse advice ever.

[meatlover]

Thank you all very much for the input and for the positive comments.
I am taking everything into consideration and appreciate all the advice given.

Just a few last questions.
Some captains tell me never to look in after 50 feet, some tell me to take quick glances even at 30 to see how you're doing with the ROD, I just wanted to see what you guys have to say about that.

Also, finally, I assume it is normal for a TRI to take the landing from you on your early stages?
It is absolutely the worst feeling when you hear "priority left".
I'm getting comfortable with the aircraft and being told that I am ahead of the game for my level, but I just have a slight issue with the landing, which will NOT be a problem.

I really hope that this is NOT a problem, and something everyone goes through initially till he gets the technique..

Thanks again guys..

[Meikleour]

I cannot believe some of the crass advice being offered here by supposed professional pilots!

This opinion is based on 16 years on A320/A330/A340 types + 7 years of aircraft base training experience ie. actually teaching people how to land airbus types.

Firstly: emulate the autoland system! This does a very late abrupt flare actioned by rad alt data. Not something for the human pilot to strive for.

Secondly: Thrust reduction - do many of the posters on here realise the relationship between thrust lever angle and thrust delivered whilst the autothrust is in use? From the posters suggestion, I think not! Do not confuse slowly closing the thrust levers with a slow reduction of thrust.

Thirdly: The landing flare has always been a visual manoeuvre - that is exactly why, when the visibility is too poor for adequate visual reference, that autolands are performed!!

That some posters are advocating looking at the flight instruments below 50ft. and making flare references to the ADI horrifies me or perhaps suggests that we have "flight simers" offering their advice!?

Comments from real Airbus pilots welcomed.

[de facto]

Some captains tell me never to look in after 50 feet, some tell me to take quick glances even at 30 to see how you're doing with the ROD, I just wanted to see what you guys have to say about that.

At 50 you look out,not in anymore..your rate of descent(closure rate to runway)is by looking at the runway itself...

Im out now,good luck.

[HundredPercentPlease]

To the OP - you should be able to spot the fools here quite easily! As a rated 320 pilot, you will know that bringing the levers back slowly has no effect for the first half of the travel, so any post with slow levers in can be considered drivel...

The answer to your question is in the FCTM and also by listening to a couple of people on this thread.

In preparation, you must be stable and "in the slot" for the last part of the approach. The best way to do this is by visual reference - as a learner you may think that that lovely flight director is useful, but it's not. It's actually easier and more accurate to fly the last part (below 200') using eyes only...

At 30 RA it all starts happening. Stop looking at the aiming point and look now at a point 3/4 of the way down the runway.

The machine starts to lower the nose itself at 30 RA, so even if you wanted to maintain your ROD, you would have to apply smooth and continuous stick-back. But you want to reduce your ROD, so you will naturally apply more stick-back, so apply just a little more such that you see your sink rate reducing and you start to fly towards that point down the runway.

At the very moment your nose goes up, the thrust will increase (to maintain speed). This is a bad thing because, despite the theory, there is still a tiny pitch-power couple. So the solution is to cut the thrust a millisecond after 30' and to do this you need to promptly close the thrust levers (subject to abnormal speed variation).

And now all you have to concentrate on is the stick and the new aiming area. You continue to gently pull back, so that you are visually using texture flow to fly the aircraft towards that point positioned 3/4 of the way down the runway. This will give a small ROD and a tiny bump at touchdown.

In summary:


Stable approach.
Visual references only below 200'.
If slightly off target, correct only in small amounts so as to not affect stability.
At 30' start a gradual stick back and...
Close the thrust levers promptly.
Continue the stick back until you are flying to a point before the end of the r/w.
Done.
For a crosswind, move the pedals as slowly as is humanly possible. So you may have to start that really slow movement as high at 25 RA. When you get the hang of that, halve the pedal movement speed. ;)

HTH

[thermostat]

de facto, I gave the reason why you can do this. Did you read it? I did that for years on the 320 with no problem, why? because I understood how the by-pass engine works. You don't have to do it, no one is twisting your arm. It's a matter of choice.
T

[PantLoad]

Again, and as usual, I emphasize the need to read
your SOP, the FCTM, the FCOM, etc., for yourself.
Then, there should be no confusion.

With regard to the two degrees in eight seconds...
I suggest that this be read again, for clarification.

I understand that, for many, English is not the native
tongue. So, reading from authoritive documents that
are written in English is a challenge itself.

If there is any question, I strongly suggest that you
contact someone in your training department. While
I love PPrune, I find much of the writings, here, are
complete nonsense.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

[Boslandew]

Serious question. As a retired rotary pilot, I have no experience at all of landing jets. I was kinda surprised to hear that it's all done by numbers, at 30ft do this, at 20ft do this. How would you manage if the rad alt failed? Is this not taught in training?

[misd-agin]

RA callouts are helpful. We're talking of eye heights over 20', and maybe 30', at touchdown. Are they necessary? No.

Don't look inside below 50'? If you've got quick enough scan and want to look at something go ahead. I often glance at the RA readout, even during the flare.

Maybe shifting your gaze avoids fixation and is helpful. IDK but it works for me.

[bubbers44]

It isn't that complicated. Fly the approach or visual, flare using visual reference, smoothly reduce power and touch down. You can see how high you are so why bother with listening for a RA altitude? Fly like a pilot, not a robot. Automation has taken flying skills away from pilots in a lot of cases. I never let it happen. My Aeronca Champ didn't even have a battery installed so automation dependency was not a problem.

Flying the B757 to Tegucigalpa, Honduras was all visual approaches below 2700 ft with terrain all around and a hill that required the final turn to final be at 100 ft. Fun flying but you had to be a pilot, not a pilot mill graduate.

[Lookleft]

Meikleour you come across as someone who knows what he is talking about (fantome your input would also be welcome). What would you recommend when landing an A321 not too heavy with a light quartering tailwind that gets a sink rate that requires the thrust to be kept at the CL detent until the wheels collide with the tarmac? Short of a go-around it is still got me stuffed as to what actually happened. What would you think of bringing the thrust levers back to mid position between CL and IDLE and disconnecting the A/T just prior to runway contact? Serious question.

[Meikleour]

Lookleft: Thank you for your kind words however I have never flown the A321 only the A319/A320 variants. A rare moment of honesty not always evident on PPRUNE perhaps?!

However....... anecdotal evidence from talking to colleagues who have flown it suggests that the situation which you describe is much more common with the A321 than the smaller variants. Remember, the wing is essentially the same area but lifting a much higher weight. In addition the TE Flaps are different.
The most common advice would seem to be to ensure that there is a truly adequate margin between Vls and Vapp whilst using ATHR.
Your suggested technique is too vague since you would have no real idea of how much "extra" thrust would be delivered and the time taken for it to be delivered. The +5kts increment when using ATHR is to compensate for lag in ATHR response. If you were to use manual thrust no such padding is necessary and thrust response more immediate. Therefore the aircraft should be fully "flareable"(?) at Vapp provided that it is judged correctly.

In the situ. you describe, if the wind really is that light then I suspect that you are just flaring very slightly too late and/or too abruptly.

I have always found that whilst the A320 uses a normal flare the much shorter A319 simply needs a "check" prior to touchdown.

[Jetdriver_JAT]

If you want you can see an approach flown all manual here,

Airbus 320 AP/FD/A-THR OFF Approach - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j8WaIGNMQcs#)!

Around 3:40 is the A/C at 500 feet.. Runway somewhat rural though...:mad:

[TyroPicard]

PantLoad

With regard to the two degrees in eight seconds...
I suggest that this be read again, for clarification.Here is the bit from FCOM DSC 27-20-10 Normal Law - Pitch Control - Flare Mode.

"The system memorizes the attitude at 50 ft, and that attitude becomes the initial reference for pitch attitude control. As the aircraft descends through 30ft, the system begins to reduce the pitch attitude, reducing it to 2deg nose down over a period of 8 s."

If it was "by" 2deg over 8 seconds, why would the system bother to memorize the pitch attitude at 50'?
TP

[737Jock]

It's really important to learn where the runway/aiming point should be in your window. So when it's nice weather look predominantly OUTSIDE and quickly scan inside. Initially let the autopilot do the work but looking outside during the approach will eventually give you a feel to what it should look like.
Once you have this picture you can correct deviations faster than the flightdirector can tell you and you actually follow that instruction.

During approach (fully configured and on speed) the aiming point will not move in the window until the flare, offcourse the runway dimension changes but the aiming point stays in the same position.
So when you disconnect the AP, keep the aiming point in the same position in the window. This should ensure your flightpath is stable and help you cope with turbulence and other nasty destabilizing effects mother nature throws at us.

Coming through 200ft you start to scan between horizon, aiming point (both outside) and offcourse inside your instruments. As you descend your scan shifts from predominantly aiming point to predominantly the horizon (end of runway). This helps to judge your sinkrate.

Again you should always do this, autoland, pilot monitoring, pilot flying. This will again build your picture of what your sinkrate should look like.

Then follow the rest of the advice. When I make a banger I can usually trace it back to focussing too much on the aiming point in the later stages.

[mcdhu]

Just read the manuals. The FCOM excerpt quoted by TP above has recently been amended to better accord with the FCTM entry NO 170 LANDING - FLARE. Read that and don't listen to "this works for me..." advice.
mcdhu

[Citation2]

Close your eyes, when the guy next to you starts screaming ,Flare:ugh:

[TwoTone-7]

C2 had the next guy do exactly that on my line check!

About chasing FD's. If you get the chance in either sim or during line flight. Try an approach with AP, FD off and just the bird and use the Papi. I found visual approaches to serve for a much more stable approach during my line training. Always found with FD's on, I was chasing them to no end and de stabilising myself.

As advice give here, at 30' I do a small check and start bringing power back. At 20' I commence the flare which is in a sense, holding the attitude. If you flare high then release some pressure on the stick.

On the 321, I add 5' to the flare.

[PantLoad]

Oops, you're absolutely right! My mistake.

The FCTM words it differently.....

My mistake, Sorry.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

[meatlover]

Just a quick update on what technique yesterday's captain suggested and insisted I use.
Seems like every cpt wants his own thing. :ugh:

So he suggested I memorize the numbers rather than flying fully by the seat of the pants initially.
Basically to cut power at 30, start to hold you attitude to break the ROD, and finally flare at 20.
Worked well on the first leg, on my second leg I ended up floating a bit, but touched down nicely soon as I let go a bit.


He said it works like a charm all the time, and keeps you on the safe side...

[NonstandardofNorwich]

30' pause..chop...flare

Worked out 98.5% of the time for me when I used to fly the little beauty

[TyroPicard]

PantLoad
Don't think it actually makes much difference... I guess the fact that the a/c tries to pitch down is all you need to know. I'm just a bit a*al about technical precision!
The only time it makes a difference is if the pitch attitude is a long way from normal passing 50', which would alter the pitch rate below 30'. Probably explains some of my landings....

TP

[Skyblade]

I would like to thank all the captain's who have shared their views.. It was a good learning experience.:ok:

[Natstrackalpha]

Tis sad. Lest your TRI be too scared could you not go into the sim?

Talk with the nervous little bugger, over a coffee and ask him, if he would accept holding the ATT until 30, then at , 20` pitch up about 2.5 degrees, or 2 degrees - judged visually, the he won`t freak at 50 feet when you don`t make any `flaring inputs.

Land better in that att - rather than float down runway with ever increasing pitch or concentrating on trying to get a fantastic "flare" - RETARD when the little man in the computer says ¬RETARD¬ .

Airbus 320 prefers to land firmly, than most and is as nearest to "flown on" than most.

As you are where you are at. Try youtube - look for a video by . . called . . .ANA 3/3 A320 here in this vid, you can see an A320 from the back end from a ground camera, you can click on the space bar thing and re-play the flare to touchdown bit (about 4 seconds) again and again and again . . . . note the straightening of the nose too, note also when the REV come out.

Remember - you are NOT trying to "flare" You are trying to land the aircraft.

The "flare" is simply a result of your efforts at trying to land it. see whadda mean?

Practice makes perfect = let nervy know that you are awake as he has not got the time or the money to "chance it" if you f--- up at 20 feet and yet some chick Captain in India or Pakistan DID have a short career of landing the 320 on the nosewheel, not to be recommended!

So just tell Capt TRI to hold tight until 20 feet and he might, might just trust you.

It would have been much better if he could have taught you or got you to learn, properly in the first place, like they should have done on the type rating course (can`t get the staff nowadays!!)

One company tried this on PPL students - yup, they flew them round the circuit trying to get them to land without having previously taught them how to land. It meant mega money into the tills at this compnay and poor frustrated students not knowing where they went wrong - Answer, wrong school. Its now gone out of business, thank God.

You DO need balls, or in the case of a lady, loads of estrogene to dare to land the thing but, but, you must be taught properly in the first place, to know what "good" is, and then, in the fullness of time the wings will grow from your shoulders.

Don`t forget, the TRI - if the aircraft gets broken while he is tightly sitting next to you, then it comes out of his wages, which is why the Captain always goes down with the ship.

[Vc10Tail]

The cabin crew are making a bet on the landing.

The fleet chief/inspector is breathing down my neck on the jump seat.:*

Some nervous passengers added some thrust on their seat and destabilized my flare!:mad:

And once you grease it on on the mains...remembernot to wreck the nose gear..there is a pronounced down force with spoiler extension to act as a reminder of flaring.Do bring her down gently or it might spoil the spoils of a smoothie touch down...meanwhile..check those touch down zone markers ...you don't want to leave them too far behind your tail!

[Robert G Mugabe]

Ignore the cabin crew.

Retard thrust levers before you check the ROD. Less chance of floating long.

Then look at the far end of the runway and let aircraft fly itself onto runway.

Dont think about it to much.

Forget the firm ones immediately.

[Vc10Tail]

Yeah...and give em a proper dictatorial bang on their rear ends!

Surely you enjoy terrorizing your passengers Dis-Honourable Mugabe?:)

I find that technique works on a light prop twin seater...not an 80 tonne metal junk...even if Fly by wire..below 50 ft "Ground Law" applies...meaning pilot is the driver.

[bubbers44]

Making firm landings and forgetting them means you will always be a lousy pilot. Why not take a little pride in your profession and learn how to land like a real pilot? That is by feel and last minute wind change corrections. Us old guys could do it, why not you?

[Noodlebox]

Bubbers44, would it not be easier if we just take it for granted that the you and all the "old guys" could land every airplane ever made (bar airbus, cos they're for girls), with no AP, ATHR, FD, FMC, upside down,on one engine, in a thunderstorm, on fire.... and then taxi in and shut down, nonchalantly quipping " That's how it's done kid", to the hapless awestruck F/O beside you.

You could cut your post count in four!

This macho rubbish is all great, but the reality is that every really competent operator I learned from over the years didn't spend all day waffling about how fantastic an operator they were, and could impart knowledge with being so condescending. The guys above are giving great gen to someone who is learning. The old "natural born pilot" routine helps no one, and it's on every thread!

[bubbers44]

Even though it is your first post, I respect your opinion. Some day you will realize that it takes experience to properly fly an airplane. It did for me and all of my flying friends. We don't think we are any better than the new guys with low experience as we had but we went through the whole learning experience and now know a lot more than we did back then. We went from Aeronca Champs and J3 Cubs to Boeing 757 and 767's. Most of us are now retired but had a very wonderful flying career. Hope you do too.

[Noodlebox]

It's my first post on Pprune, not my first day flying! Iv been flying for many years in both OLP and training capacities. And I think that the standard of guys I've trained in recent years is very high, all extremely motivated, and conscientious, due in no small part to the amount of money it takes to train oneself nowadays! Telling guys that they should feel how to land " in the seat of their pants", is not helpful, and serves only to bewilder a trainee, and massage the trainers ego. Students need a datum of a decent landing to develop feel, and I think the advice given above is excellent.

As an aside, having flown on different fleets with various companies, I've found that there is a huge exaggeration on how much pilot skills have been eroded. When OFTM was initially introduced for one company I worked for, there was a huge increase in reported incidents. I find it hard to believe that we all started flying the aircraft more erratically overnight, rather that guys were pushed into reporting cockups that would have been previously"overlooked"...... So I think it's very easy to reminisce about how fantastic our flying skills were, but I would be mindful of the fact that they were in an era of far less traffic, less atc vigilance, less prescriptive OFTM monitoring, less commercial pressure, and lower fuel bills. It's a brave new world out there!

[bubbers44]

NB, the problems started when they put 300 hr pilots in the right seat of jet airliners and were told to use the autopilot, don't hand fly. Then they become captains with the same talent in the right seat they had when they started.

Unfortunately now he is in the left seat with almost no hands on experience with the same in the right seat. 30 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it is. That is why we have this problem with automation dependency. We all should be able to easily fly any airplane to Cat 1 minimums with no automation as we did back then.

Most of us back then had thousands of hours single pilot flying twins to Cat 1 minimums with no problem. Now it is a problem. See the problem?

[bubbers44]

That is how we did it then and to get the airline job you had to fly an airplane you have never flown, Electra in my case, and if you couldn't handfly a single engine approach after doing 3 approaches prior losing an engine on every missed approach you didn't get the job. How many new hires could do that today? That is the difference between now and then.

[bubbers44]

No visual in those days by the way so ILS approaches to minimums in the sim were ILS's to minimums and we all passed.

[bubbers44]

I know, thread drift but making the touchdown wasn't any harder than the ILS, just judge how much higher you must be in the cockpit at touchdown than your last airplane. Once I made a firm landing in a B767 because I normally flew a B757 so had to remind my self on final which airplane I was flying today. Starting out in a Lear Jet you definately have to readjust when you think the main gear will touch.

[flyboyike]

I usually look a little ahead of me...


I don't fly an Airbus (I'm an E170/175 driver nowadays), but may I ask why you're looking "a little ahead" rather than all the way at the end of the runway?

[flyboyike]

Passing the threshold (so, at approximately 50 ft) shift your visual focus point a long way down the runway.
In that way, your peripheral vision will show the descent rate.
Flare enough to almost stop the descent rate.

Do not switch your vision point to inside anymore, because that will destroy the continuity of your descent rate estimation.

My experience is that every landing that was less than soft, I had not shifted vision far enough down the runway, or I did something like a quick check of airspeed during the flare.


I agree wholeheartedly, once I go head up for the flare I have no clue what my descent rate is in fpm or what my airspeed is. It's all visual/feel by then. I still use essentially the same technique as what I was taught landing my first PA-28-161. Eyes at the end of the runway and let's play don't let it touch.

Seems to me some pilots tend to overthink this whole landing thing.

[bubbers44]

Don't let it touch only works with lots of runway. I landed at TGU, Honduras and we had a 700 ft touchdown zone or go around because of the short runway and the cliff at the end. Landing at the 1,000 ft point is very important to prevent over run. We should all be able to do it without floating down the runway.
One day my FO in a 727 kept floating at Kingston Jamaica so I said either land now or go around. He landed. Kingston doesn't have a long runway. Taca put one off the end over the cliff about a year after I retired and killed a bunch of passengers. They landed long on a wet runway and couldn't stop in an Airbus.
TGU is very unforgiving if you screw up. It is just challenging if you do it right. I did over 600 landings with zero close calls. I used the taxiway 1,000 ft from the cliff to use as an indicator of if I was cutting it too close. I never once needed it but to save brakes let us roll to the end. TGU is considered the most dangerous jetliner airport in the world. It is also the most fun. I never went around because if I was going to miss the 700 ft touch down point I just put it on the runway. None of the landings were bad, they were a bit firm, but got some of my smoothest ones too most of the time.

[flyboyike]

Your TGU experience is impressive, however, I do believe my main point stands.

[A320baby]

Hi Guys/Gals

What a great thread, Some really good advice being thrown around in here.

I have a question of my own, Im a relatively new FO on the Airbus. Could anyone share there technique for landing in a crosswind?

I've noticed that when I have a strong xwind, I will keep thrust on till About 20/retard (depending on circumstances) flare, Just before touchdown de-crab with the rudder, And if need be (shoot me) maybe I check the side stick for a little bit of aileron.

Here's my problem, I have noticed that I tend to float alot with this technique. Today was a prime example, Had a xwind about 14kts gusting 20kts Brought back the thrust about 20ft flared, floated, Landed (within the touch down) For some reason I was very disappointed with the landing and started doubting myself. It felt as if I found it difficult landing in a 15kt xwind.

Any questions/Suggestions or advice would be greatfully appreciated.

Regards,

AB

[Fursty Ferret]

I've noticed that when I have a strong xwind, I will keep thrust on till About 20/retard (depending on circumstances) flare, Just before touchdown de-crab with the rudder, And if need be (shoot me) maybe I check the side stick for a little bit of aileron.

Here's my problem, I have noticed that I tend to float alot with this technique. Today was a prime example, Had a xwind about 14kts gusting 20kts Brought back the thrust about 20ft flared, floated, Landed (within the touch down) For some reason I was very disappointed with the landing and started doubting myself. It felt as if I found it difficult landing in a 15kt xwind.


Considered flap 3? Less tendency to float, especially in a 320.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I've noticed that when I have a strong xwind, I will keep thrust on till About 20/retard (depending on circumstances) flare, Just before touchdown de-crab with the rudder, And if need be (shoot me) maybe I check the side stick for a little bit of aileron.

Here's my problem, I have noticed that I tend to float alot with this technique. Today was a prime example, Had a xwind about 14kts gusting 20kts Brought back the thrust about 20ft flared, floated, Landed (within the touch down) For some reason I was very disappointed with the landing and started doubting myself. It felt as if I found it difficult landing in a 15kt xwind.

Maybe you are retarding the thrust too late? I've noticed some pilots (myself included if I don't think about it before flare) are a bit hesitant to retard the TL's in windy/gusty condition and do it later than they would do on a normal day. Add some extra speed to that and voila - you end up floating...

[Natstrackalpha]

I still use essentially the same technique as what I was taught landing my first PA-28-161. Eyes at the end of the runway and let's play don't let it touch.


No Way! you may be flying CRJs but that is NOT the way to land an A320 and if you `aint in an A320 then move over for those who are!

The guy`s asking a question!

If you land it like you just said by that . . .tantric method it will float 2 feet above the runway with ever increasing attitude.

The bus must be flown on.

You are right about "eyes to the end of the runway" but an approx 2 degree pitch up - judged visually is what is required at 20 ft and re-tard when the old man says so - but don`t float it - you`d stay up there all day - fly it on - firmer rather than softer. then follow with nose down without delay or that will stay into the air as long as it wants to too . . .

[Natstrackalpha]

If you want you can see an approach flown all manual here

Nice flying :ok:

[The African Dude]

A320 baby

Remember that 15kt crosswind will provide you with a bit of lift from the swept wing on the upwind side. Effectively this gives you a little bit of an increase in your headwind. Ok, it's on one side only, but you are keeping the wings level along with the FBW normal law so it acts to increase your lift.

For this reason you'll might need to select a very slightly lower than normal attitude for the flare, then de-crab as normal and you should plonk yourself on the runway without any need to use in-to-wind aileron other than to avoid drifting downwind.

I float in strong crosswinds sometimes and it's normally because I forgot to remind myself during the last few hundred feet of the associated lift effect.

In gusty conditions, I agree with the use of Flap 3 as you will carry more energy. However, the high nose attitude and wallowy handling can make life tricky unless you are very smooth and steady with your sidestick inputs.

AD

[roulishollandais]

What a great thread, Some really good advice being thrown around in here.

I have a question of my own, Im a relatively new FO on the Airbus. Could anyone share there technique for landing in a crosswind?

A shame to find such questions. That has nothing to see with automation, but with criminal management of civil aviation by designers of modern civil aviation like Airbus' cowèboys, airlines, instructors, regulators, ICAO.

[Limeygal]

Every landing you walk away from is a good one :ok:

[White Knight]

With any luck, you'll feel the wheels kiss.


Just don't try this on a short, wet runway:}:}:}

[White Knight]

Don't let it touch only works with lots of runway. I landed at TGU, Honduras and we had a 700 ft touchdown zone or go around because of the short runway and the cliff at the end. Landing at the 1,000 ft point is very important to prevent over run. We should all be able to do it without floating down the runway.
One day my FO in a 727 kept floating at Kingston Jamaica so I said either land now or go around. He landed. Kingston doesn't have a long runway. Taca put one off the end over the cliff about a year after I retired and killed a bunch of passengers. They landed long on a wet runway and couldn't stop in an Airbus.
TGU is very unforgiving if you screw up. It is just challenging if you do it right. I did over 600 landings with zero close calls. I used the taxiway 1,000 ft from the cliff to use as an indicator of if I was cutting it too close. I never once needed it but to save brakes let us roll to the end. TGU is considered the most dangerous jetliner airport in the world. It is also the most fun. I never went around because if I was going to miss the 700 ft touch down point I just put it on the runway. None of the landings were bad, they were a bit firm, but got some of my smoothest ones too most of the time.



My hero............:rolleyes:

[roulishollandais]

far less traffic, less atc vigilance, less prescriptive OFTM monitoring, less commercial pressure, and lower fuel bills. It's a brave new world out there! When you are to flare and to land with limit crosswind, gusts, windshear , perhaps fire on board,night low level fog, engine lost, etc. it is not the moment to think traffic, atc, fuel bills, etc. and learn to fly with passengers on board.
Bubbers44 tries only to limit damage in case his grandchildren are passengers this afteernoon in such an aircraft with fake-pilots in the cockpit. I am affraid too. :ugh:
Such pilots have nothing to do in airlines.

[Natstrackalpha]

where is TGU?

[Natstrackalpha]

.is it Toncontin International?

[Natstrackalpha]

This is wrong. 'Retard Retard' is a reminder, not an order (except in the autoland case). If you hear it on an ordinary manual landing, you've kept the power on for too long. Also, 20' is very much on the low side for the flare, especially on a heavy 320 or 321.

An A320 instructor would not say this. Also, if you are an A320 pilot or instructor, then all I have learnt on the A320 is wrong and does not work?
Yeh, right - even if I was wrong, which I am not, therer would have been a mild adjustment resulting in the same result. Also - (a need to tell?) 20` is very much on the low side? - the operative words here are `very much`
as opposed to TOO LOW!!


50`
30` Hold att, pressurise the sidestick,------------------eyes to the end of the rnwy
20` pitch up approx 2 degrees, judged visually!
Retard, when the old man says so, when the old man says so.

- it works,

fly it on as it WILL float very easily.

[737Jock]

@natstrackalpha, maybe you want to study the FCTM a bit more then, because airbus certainly disagrees with you.

NO-170 flare
At 20*ft, the "RETARD" auto call-out reminds the pilot to retard thrust levers. It is a reminder rather than an order.

And FCTM NO-160 approach procedure
RETARD auto call out comes at 10*ft for autoland as an order. (Instead of 20*ft for manual landing as an indication)

In fact during a manual approach the height at which the thrust levers are closed is a judgement based on environmental conditions. Reflected in the FCTM by:
At 20*ft, the "RETARD" auto call-out reminds the pilot to retard thrust levers. It is a reminder rather than an order. When best adapted, the pilot will rapidly retard all thrust levers: depending on the conditions, the pilot will retard earlier or later. However, the pilot must ensure that all thrust levers are at IDLE detent at the latest at touchdown, to ensure ground spoilers extension at touchdown.

@johnsmith
If you hear it on an ordinary manual landing, you've kept the power on for too long.
That is also evidently BS!!!The simple fact is that the airbus will ALWAYS call retard, even if the levers are already in idle.

[737Jock]

@bubbers44

You are being too harsh on 300 hour guys. Most of them are very talented indeed. It's is mostly the old "experienced" skippers that want them to use the A/P, not the younger captains that started themselves as 300hr guys. You have no idea what you are talking about!

The problem with their experience levels is that they quickly loose the picture. But the again I have seen equally bad performance from guys with 5000+ hrs as well, the so-called career FO's. They really don't put incapable guys in the LHS in europe.

[Natstrackalpha]

737Jock

The problem with their experience levels is that they quickly loose the picture. But then again I have seen equally bad performance from guys with 5000+ hrs as well, the so-called career FO's. They really don't put incapable guys in the LHS in europe.

Jock, me old chukka and anyone else too who is quoting the FTM or FCOM.

I am a mere potato, what do I know - nothing!

In Europe, as with anywhere else, if you have a R/H seat man or woman with 300 hours or 5,000 hours, and they are not up to the performance (due to crap training, say) then train the b-----s up! Thats what you are there for. If you have not got the time to do that, then mark `em down and send them back for training.

Equal bs, according to you - perhaps. However, the fact - (not the bloody fcom) the fact remains that 20` is a good height to pitch up 2 degrees, judged visually, eyes to the end of the runway.

Back to the Old Man: Closing the thrust levers when he says "retard" is not going to do anyone wrong. Watch the a/p doing it and see what `it` does (somebody mentioned this observing of the a/p and emulating that - it is very good advice!)

You can get all creative and thoughtful closing the thrust levers at 50` say, some do, some do, it depends on the conditions, wind, weight and a whole number of WAT considerations. the capital of Mongolia in the summer - to Manston in the winter . . . ?

I still say, after having tried it, manually, again and again
50`
30` maintain the att (pressurise the sidestick)
flare by
20` with, a 2 deg nose pitch up - judged visually.

Retard, when the old man says so - and hey, do you know what, it lands very nicely.

When we get as professionally skillful as your good self then, there may well be variations on a theme and we can retard at different times - and hope we get the same result as this one, which, like it or not, works, time and time again. I`ve done it manually, with A/P followed by A/P disc, done it Raw Data and still it works, so what do I say, "try this as I believe it is the best proven and tried method, but don`t try this because 737Jock thinks its bull**** - it works and is 100% effective, but 737Jock has issues with it". You are not flying a B737 by any chance are you Jock? That is a different kettle of fish, sir.

Not disputing the FCTM for one minute - except `airbus` who built the thing, don`t always get it right - like in the case of not resolving issues such as DC ESS Failure, no mention of how to restore comms there - neither on ECAM nor in the QRH . . .? Are we to suppose then that the ensuent loss of comms are to be lived with, or do we restore comms despite the fact that it is not written anywhere how to do it?

Overall airbus are most adept and professional at building lovely aeroplanes which fly really well and are as safe as they ever can be, using the highest of modern technology, how cool is that!

Tried and trusted methods of how to control the dang thang as it is different from conventional aircraft, seemingly by rote, seemingly by numbers, will get you though marvellously, until that time when the wings sprout from your shoulders, if that is at all possible, flying a whole bunch of computers and fly-by-wire divorcing the `feel` from the pilot to the outside air flow.

:rolleyes:sake!

[Idle Thrust]

That is also evidently BS!!!The simple fact is that the airbus will ALWAYS call retard, even if the levers are already in idle.

It has been some time and things may have changed but when I transitioned to the A-320 (1991) there was one captain who had a reputation for consistently making the best landings - we were all pretty new to the Bus then. One very observant F/O picked up on the fact that he NEVER heard the RETARD call when this gentleman was at the controls.

[Valmont]

I'm flying the A319, so you might want to adapt that to your particular aircraft.
This is what I do most of the times, some times I'll adapt it due to external factors obviously.
I will retard the throttle at 30, then I'll start my flare at 30 right away if LW is above 55 tons, otherwise I'll wait for 20ft.
Then once you start your flare, just pitch up slightly and look all the way down the rwy and let the aircraft slooooowly loose altitude.
Problem with me initially was that I didn't look down the runway, I looked inside wayyyy to much and transitioned outside at the last time. I had my fair share of booms but my landings significantly improved once I started looking way more outside, just like I used to be doing on the skyhawk ;).
If you balloon, try to release sidestick pressure, but do not try to push the sidestick forward, don't try to increase the pitch either.

[ANCPER]

Sorry, but I've flew A320s back in '95 for 9 yrs and again in 2010 and they have ALWAYS called "Retard, Retard" regardless of TL position.

Just read John Smiths post, maybe I'm wrong. So much for memory!

[bubbers44]

737 jock, when I started in the 737 I had 5500 hrs because that was required. When I became a captain my FO needed 5,000 hrs. so we didn't run a flight school as an airline, we really knew how to fly a B737 as captain on our first day as FO. Things are different now and some people think 300 hr pilots are totally qualified to fly an airliner with no supervision. You decide.

[bubbers44]

As for the old timers wanting them to use the autopilot, I probably would too knowing how they would hand fly it. The new captains are probably still wobbling around getting it on the ground so don't notice.

[NARVAL]

Very good discussion, many fascinating insights...I am now very retired, but flew the whole family for some years, and reading all the posts, and remembering my experience, I wonder if erverybody uses, or is ordered to use the autothrottle? I used it of course when necessary (autoland, climb, cruise, but if the approach was CAT 1 or better , I always had it OFF at the beginning of the approach. And I was not the only one! Speed fluctuating a little with gusts etc... but once you have settled with the right N1, you seldom need to change it during your descent. Same thing with flight director bars...very dangerous things at times (see the Rio Paris accident)...As for the landing itself, you said it all...I just remember (320) that it is the only plane where I often pushed slightly on the stick to land it (when coming very close to the ground). Memories...

[737Jock]

You really are showing your age bubbers44!

[737Jock]

No. You will not get the "RETARD" auto callout if you have closed the taps by 20'. (Having landed an Airbus twice today I can assure you that is the case.)

Either your airline changed something or you need to pay better attention johnsmith:

Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo ENTIRE FLIGHT IN ENGLISH (43 minutes) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBTbTCLEp4M&feature=youtu.be&t=39m50s)

In this case thrust levers are fully closed by 30ft! The airbus will call RETARD at 20ft.

FCOM:
RETARD ANNOUNCEMENT
The loudspeaker announces RETARD at 20*ft or at 10*ft if autothrust is active and one autopilot is in LAND mode.

[Capn Bloggs]

You really are showing your age bubbers44!
At least you won't hear "Retard" from him... :)

[bubbers44]

No copilot or computer has called me a retard yet. I guess that is in the new stuff. Does it say retard when you make a bad landing too? You are right though, they made me quit playing this game at 60 because of old age. Now pilots are smart enough to fly until 65.

[Natstrackalpha]

No. You will not get the "RETARD" auto callout if you have closed the taps by 20'. (Having landed an Airbus twice today I can assure you that is the case.)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

:ok:

[Natstrackalpha]

but once you have settled with the right N1,

NARVAL bon soir, that is so cool . . . I found that if I set thrust at 180kts say, then flap1 (+/-gear) will bring me down to `S` speed followed by flaps 2 with no (or very little) thrust adjustment like a constant power approach technique.

[737Jock]

Natstrackalpha, check the video I posted and the fcom! The airbus does say Retard even when the thrust levers are already closed at 20ft.

[Natstrackalpha]

Jock - so what? You are now arguing in my favour! I never disputed about the old man saying retard - you meant somebody else, surely?

You need somebody who is arguing that the lil `ol man won`t say anything.

However, now we are here - again - since when, like, when, was it necessary for a pilot to get a retard call anyway - yea lo that I always adhere to it, it is sort of comforting. . . . .

My point - (sigh) this time (sigh again) is - quite frankly, by the time one gets to an A320 - if one cannot land a bloody aeroplane, with or without a voice then one should not be there flying the bloody thang in the first place, after many years of experience, you then move on up. For those young `uns who have gone through a sort of integrated course, and have made it to an airline with one of the more direct routes to the right hand seat - have had to crack it in the sim and in the aeroplane too- they `aint gonna let a total num num loose on a $50,000,000 jet -

Everybody on here can land, successfully - unless we are all ghosts from, the past!!! Giving tips on landing to somebody who is on base training or ZFT is one thing. Debating like a load of politicians is pointless and avoids the objective.

Somebody also PM`d me - in short don`t bother! some do things the right way - others do things the wrong way, if your company does it your way then thats up to your SOPs and our SOPs dictate the best way, whether its switching off an APU :ugh:! ! ! ! or landing - it works, like, this, gottit? Good, now you try it, well done! Now lets move onto somethingelse.

Apart from the odd g-bs--te, an experienced Captain in the Left seat has loads more years of experience and has had to endure deep training courses and has probably been an instructor and has flown about three kinds of airliners again and again for a number of years.

You are just trying to wind me up - or you are inebriated or just thick.

One f---g turtle neck who knew jack, actually tried to tell me to delete the EO immediately after an engine fail - in short, either do it properly or f--- o--. There are plenty of young students who fly really well after good quality training, and they really want to learn and really want to get it right - that is why they ask us. It is up to us to sift the tot:mad:kers from the gen studes/FOs and not be led into childish debate by the former.

[737Jock]

You do realise your posts are almost unreadable natstrackalpha? I don't know why you are applauding clear BS in post 98, but that led me to believe you think that the airbus does not call retard in some cases.
I'm not argueing in anyone's favour nor to undermine anybody. This thread is full of BS that is more a reflection of peoples opinions rather then factual information.

In general:
1. According to airbus the pilot judges when to close the thrust, not when "the ol man says"
2. The callout is only a reminder not a command during manual flight.
3. The airbus will ALWAYS call retard
Source: a320 manuals

I'm not sure how anyone's way can be better then what the manufacturer says in their certified manuals about how it is done. It would be bad training to teach anything other then what the manufacturer says.
A. It would leave you open to a whole range of nastiness when something goes wrong.
B. The manufacturer has more experience with their aircraft then you will ever be able to get in your career.

When somebody asks for advice on here I'm surprised to see so much BS, that can easily be disproven by opening the FCOM/FCTM.
Closing the thrust when the ol man says might work 9 out of 10 times, but we are trying to score 10 out of 10 aren't we? The flare and closing thrust is a judgement, and getting it wrong a few times does more for learning then 1 solution for everything advice. But what works even better is manual thrust.

Yes I fly a320 and I have flown 737's.

Back to the Old Man: Closing the thrust levers when he says "retard" is not going to do anyone wrong. Watch the a/p doing it and see what `it` does (somebody mentioned this observing of the a/p and emulating that - it is very good advice!)

Well the autopilot starts reducing the thrust at 30ft RA, not at 20! So how does that relate to the old man? It doesn't.

[Natstrackalpha]

got it...........ok, ok.

Not trying to make a point anymore, see link for interest only.

From flightglobal

Enhanced A320 logic to warn pilots of throttle retard oversight (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/enhanced-a320-logic-to-warn-pilots-of-throttle-retard-oversight-350148/)

[AirRabbit]

I'll try this one more time ... I used to be a member of this forum for a very long time ... but due to circumstances beyond my control, I've been unable to participate for quite some time now ... so ... and at the risk of sounding overly borning, I'm going to repost one of my earlier posts that some may consider goes to the heart of this specific question:

I know just how much everyone on this forum likes to have someone come along and “tell them” how it’s to be done. So, for those of you here who are older than ½ of my age – stop reading and go on down to the next post. OK, maybe you don’t know my age, but I was around when dirt was invented – that should give you an approximation. But, for you folks who are less than ½ of my age, listen up – this may be important to you, and, after a little practice, you just may be able to teach those guys who have now stopped reading how to really land an airplane. This procedure is applicable to every airplane from a C-152 to a B-747 (I haven’t flown a B-52 or the A-380, but I’ll bet it works there, too) – it also works in calm conditions, head winds, tail winds, cross winds, CAVU conditions, snow, ice, rain, simple IMC conditions, and even FLIR-aided IMC conditions.

As almost all of the folks above have indicated – the last portion of the final approach should be flown in the configuration in which you plan to land, and flown at a constant speed of 1.3 Vs (computed in that configuration), plus ½ of the steady state wind (not to exceed an additive of 20 knots) plus all of the gust factor. I personally believe that this steady-state condition should be established at 1000 feet AGL, but I know that some operations allow this altitude to be lower – but in the passenger revenue world I’m not aware of any that are below 500 feet AGL.

You should cross the runway threshold at what ever is the minimum threshold crossing height – for most transport category airplanes this should be about 50 feet. And at that point you should have been able to bleed off the airspeed additives you’ve been holding for steady-state wind (only the steady-state wind additives) – you’ll still have the 1.3 Vs plus all the gust factor. This will require you to continue to fly the airplane to the runway. Some operators recommend that you begin to reduce power at this point – if that is the procedure you’ve been taught, fine – but keep the airspeed constant until you begin the flare (that may mean pushing the nose over a bit – hopefully it will only require nose down pressure and not nose down movement. The point to which you should be flying at this point (the “aim” point – that point that doesn’t move up or down in the windscreen) is a point on the runway surface about 2/3 of the way between the threshold and the fixed distance markers (for the C-150 guys, this aim point should be the numbers themselves and for the B-747 guys, the aim point should be the fixed distance markers or just beyond).

OK, now for the flare. The question that always comes up is, “what attitude do I flare to?” When you start to flare is critical. You will want to reach your flare attitude with the main wheels something between 1 and 5 feet from the runway surface (1 foot or so for the C-152 guys and 5 feet for the B-747 guys … yes, I know how difficult it is to imagine the mains at 5 feet above the runway from the B-747 cockpit – but remember, you’re good at your job! – Make it 5 feet!) The change in the attitude from when you initiate the flare to reaching the flare attitude should take just about 3 seconds (no less than 2 for you C-150 guys and no more than 4 for you B-747 guys) and you should wind up with the main wheels “just off the runway surface. The speed you should have when you reach the flare attitude should be just below what you carried from the threshold to this point – between 5 and 15 knots – the smaller number for the smaller airplanes and the larger number for the larger airplanes. The attitude should be just exactly what it would take to maintain level flight from this point all the way down the runway. What I’d have you practice would be, “do not climb, do not descend, do not accelerate, do not decelerate; we’ll go around at the end of the runway.” I’d also have you mentally locate the position on the belly of the airplane exactly between the main gear (the body gear for you B-747 guys) and I’d tell you to fly down the runway (no climb, no descent, no faster, no slower) with that point on the belly of the airplane exactly over the runway centerline – and to do that with whatever crab angle you need to do it. Of course you’d have to add a bit of power – since you had the throttles back but this is OK for practice.

I’d have you do this exercise as many times as was necessary to get you comfortable with when to initiate the flare, how quickly to flare, and to what attitude you need to stop the flare with the main gear just off the runway surface. The key here, getting you to recognize when to start the flare and how quickly to flare, is to get you to recognize what attitude to reach at the end of the flare – THAT attitude is called the LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE.

Once you’ve got it, as you begin the flare, you begin the throttle reduction. The idea is to get the throttles to the idle position as the mains touch the runway. As you pull the throttles back, you will notice the nose getting heavier – don’t let it move down. Increase the back pressure on the elevator controls – not to move the nose up – rather to just keep it from moving down. Over that 3 seconds, the airspeed continues to decelerate, while the airplane continues to descend, going from just above the runway to ON the runway. Level Flight Attitude is the attitude from which you want to land the airplane. Your touchdown should be firm but not hard, the kinetic energy of the airplane should be moving in the right direction, the nose should be able to be flown to the runway rather quickly as it is not unnecessarily high to arrest a high sink rate. You should be over the center of the runway, with the controls already properly positioned for the landing run.

If you had been carrying a crab angle to counter a crosswind, the crab should be removed in exactly the same time as the flare takes – 3 seconds. The pressure applied to the rudder pedal to pressure the nose around to line up with the centerline of the runway should start with the back pressure on the control column to flare. As you probably know, this may take some “into-the-wind” aileron to counter the tendency of the forward sweeping wing to rise … but, unless the wind is quite strong, you won’t be in the air long enough to have the wind blow you downwind off the centerline. Of course, if the wind IS quite strong, you may have to add a bit more aileron to slightly (very slightly) dip the wing tip in the up-wind direction.

I offer just one caveat. If you discuss this with your chief pilot or fleet captain and they absolutely forbid you to fly and land this way – pay attention to your company and forget what I’ve said. This is not an attempt to thwart the way your company procedures require you to operate. If this is different from the way you normally approach and land, I do not recommend that you do it without everyone in the cockpit knowing what you are going to do, no matter what position you are flying – if you can swing it, I’d recommend practicing it in the simulator with someone who knows what they are doing. I think you’ll be surprised at how easy this becomes, and how consistent your landings will become as well – night, day, rain, snow, clear, no matter. Consistent landings are good things to cultivate. Also, if you try this and just simply think it is the epitome of wrong-headedness, let me know and I’ll buy you a beer. However, if you think it is the correct way to land, let me know and I’ll buy you two!

[Meikleour]

737Jock: I think you will find that if the Thrust Levers are quickly closed prior to the RA trigger point then you will NOT get a "Retard" call. Works for me these last 17 years!

[mikedreamer787]

One old thread I recall yonks ago asked for 737 landing advice - total 1 1/2 pages.

This thread asks for landing advice on the 320 suck-squirt....6 PAGES so far!

I have a bet going with a 727 mate of mine that this thread will reach at least 10
full pages or until the wheel is fully reinvented.

[Natstrackalpha]

Well the autopilot starts reducing the thrust at 30ft RA, not at 20! So how does that relate to the old man? It doesn't.

No, you are right - it doesn`t. (after revision) I was wrong. the thrust levers are closed at 30` (subject to conditions)

..also, to flare by 20` not at 20` (subject to conditions) (however I got away with it so far, but like you said, the objective is to nail it 10/10, not 9/10, which is what I am going to do) -

AirRabbit`s post was well cool I thought, so were your comments, much appreciated.:ok:

[AirRabbit]

The last time I checked, an airplane was an airplane. They all use the same principles and comply with the same aerodynamic rules. The difference between the A320 and the B737 is the amount of electrons to which pilots (albeit because of the engineers involved) have abdicated their decision making abilities. As I am able to recognize from my somewhat limited experience in flying the Airbus Family of airplanes, we still have a collection of parts and pieces (making up the airframe) that remain subject to the same forces and results that the air through which it travels demands. Yes, there are some electrons whose duty it is to prevent you (the pilot) from doing things that are not authorized in that electron's programming ... like bringing (or leaving) the engines in an idle thrust position (particularly when getting close to the ground and getting the nose to an attitude not acceptable to those electrons' programming) ... or continuing to raise the nose to a higher angle of attack that is also beyond the level of acceptability programmed into those "electron" memory banks (as Capt Sullenburger began to recognize at the very end of his "miracle landing" on the Hudson River). However, with those notable exceptions, the A320 can land, and, in my not-so-humble-opinion, should be landed, in exactly the same way as any other airplane. I know it can be done because I've done it, more than a few times, in a rather wide variety of conditions, weights, and specific Airbus equipment types. It comes back to the point that the pilot is (or at least SHOULD BE) in command of the airplane. Airbus has not taken that issue out of consideration ... they've simply made the boundaries within which the pilot remains in command, a bit smaller ... and, some would say too much so ... but I'm not intending to post a criticism of Airbus or their very fine equipment. If the pilot knows his/her equipment, and knows the boundaries of where his/her exercise of command authority over that equipment starts and stops, I'll be a "happy camper" regardless of the manufacturer of that equipment. Therefore - I'll stand by my previous post and again point out that the landing attitude is the "level flight" attitude, and should occur at an airspeed that is somewhat below (the exact number is not "specific" and is deliberately variable to allow the pilot to make adjustments when necessary) a margin of 30% above the projected aerodynamic stall airspeed for the configuration, weight, and location (leaving in place the wind gust factor should any exist - and that only for safety purposes), on the center-line of the runway, tracking to remain on that centerline, and should occur at a point between the threshold and not further down the runway than 3000 feet or 1/3 of the runway available, which ever is shorter. This only becomes a "real" issue when landing on runways less than 9000 feet (where these two distance maximums are equal) and provides specifics to improve the probability of NOT departing the end of the runway during the landing roll-out. I'll say it again ... an airplane is an airplane.

[junebug172]

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-LAND-SEQ08.pdf

[Capn Bloggs]

tailstrike occurrence is directly related to pitch attitude
versus aircraft geometry, and the status of main landing gear extension.
Correct. If status=retracted = tailstrike! :cool:

[DownIn3Green]

There's our buddy NATSTRACKALPHA awakening from his 3 month hibernation at Thule BGTL Greenland...Reminds me of a reggaee song..."Stir It Up"....

[Capn Bloggs]

Well, I learn something every day...

Crosswinds Not Handled Correctly
When the aircraft is close to the ground, the wind velocity tends to decrease, and the wind direction tends to turn (direction in degrees decreasing in northern latitudes).
The flight crew must be aware that during the approach phase, and especially during the flare, a crosswind effect could suddenly increase the pitch of the aircraft, and result in tailstrike.
Coriolus? :confused:

[misd-agin]

Seriously? How much does the pitch increase with a wind shift? Half a pitch? A third of a degree? 1/8? 20,000+ hrs, two crosswind landings, and neither one had a noticeable pitch up.

Based on my experience it's the 'marking with a laser and cutting with an axe' detail. In other words, more nonsense that some new guy will get confused about, worry about, or get questioned about.

[BARKINGMAD]

Can anyone explain to an old codger who's only ever flown steel FBW, why does one design and certificate a public transport aircraft which changes its handling qualities @ 50' radio and starts to LOWER the pitch @ 30' radio, just when the evolved baboon (we're all one of those!) who's driving, is trying to alight in a fairly precise manner on the tarmac??!!

No wonder the OP has asked the question, how do I land this bl**dy thing?

:ugh:

[junebug172]

You guys are over-thinking this thing.

You don't notice any of those changes at all. Land the airplane like you would any other airplane - using your aviator skills. It works just fine and is very intuitive.

[bubbers44]

All airplanes land about the same. No need to sort them out. If you have a crosswind just add a few knots because you need some lift to counteract the slip you are in to make the wheels roll straight down the runway. Why land in a crab and look like a student pilot? Try that in a tail dragger some day.

[misd-agin]

Some a/c are designed to land in a crab. Most aren't. Fly them as recommended. Airbus and Boeing recommend cross-controlled landings.

[bubbers44]

Isn't that hard on the main landing gear tires landing in a skidding situation? Why would you do that? Try that in a DC3. Guess that is not a problem any more, is it?

[junebug172]

Some aircraft, because of the engines, won't let you bank into the wind so you're really limited as to how much bank angle you can put into the upwind side.

Airbus does a decrab, or kick out, where you flare and add downwind rudder. Hopefully, you're not holding it off to where drift becomes an issue.

[bubbers44]

No Boeing has this problem of landing straight. Who makes an airplane that you have to land in a crab?

[junebug172]

Boeing.

Don't they recommend for the 737 landing with a crab in winds of about 20kts or more with more than 15 degrees of flaps?

From the Boeing 747 Flight Crew Training Manual:

"It is not necessary to eliminate the crosswind crab angle prior to touchdown on wet runways. Allowing the airplane to touch down without removing the crab angle will reduce drift toward the downwind side of the runway".

And as you can see by this vid, you can land perfectly well in a crab. And some aircraft, especially those with very low nacelles (737) or engines that are far outboard (747) will sometimes require you to land in a crab.

Crosswinds - Video (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/crosswinds/)

[vilas]

junebug172
"It is not necessary to eliminate the crosswind crab angle prior to touchdown on wet runways"
The reason to decrab before touch down is undercarriage is not designed to take high side stress. By design nose wheel aircrft CG swings the aircraft straight but at the point of touch down side stress is imposed on the gear. In your quote about 747 FCTM the word wet is important because on wet RW the a/c at the point of touch down skids straight on which reduces the side stress and then when it grips the surface it swings straight ahead. It is not recommended on dry surface.

[junebug172]

Crosswind Landings of 21 Airplanes at OSAKA Airport - YouTube (http://youtu.be/iy_wo-ircHA)

[WhyByFlier]

And some aircraft, especially those with very low nacelles (737) or engines that are far outboard (747)

Airbus aircraft are always nice and high on the strut giving plenty of roll clearance. I believe if the drift angle is 5 degrees or less they say decrab isn't required. So that'd be perhaps just over a 10 knot crosswind.

My advice for landing the 320 is to keep your aim point at a third screen height - keep it there as your reference all the way down to 50 RA. All the while using your peripheral vision get a feeling for your ROD. At 50 RA look further down the runway and close the thrust levers promptly at 30 RA. (I go for 40 RA with a stiff enough TW or just under 20 for a stiff enough HW).

[BARKINGMAD]

Mr Boeing has cleverly and simply assisted the X-wind impact problem by fitting damped castoring main gear to the 737 variants, presumably by employing the K I S S principle when it comes to design?! Hence the impression of taxying with drift observed by following craft!

Therefore the 'frame "owns" the first 15 knots of X-wind, as in the autoland case, and the bonobo chimp at the controls only has to hack the remaining 18-20 knots, depending on the variant. This news seems to reassure the "newbies" who understandably get twitched when they work out the X-wind component about to be faced.

I dread to think what Toulouse would have cobbled up by way of a solution, involving wiggly amps and actuators and various "laws" which engage when least expected!

But we appear to have drifted off (pun intended) from the O Ps request for advice, and I'm longing to be educated as to why Toulouse decided to design the 'bus to behave so in the last 50' just before impact, as per my previous posting?:confused:

[junebug172]

...why Toulouse decided to design the 'bus to behave so in the last 50' just before impact, as per my previous posting?

Simply put - so that the pilot feels like he's flaring the aircraft. The logic after 50' will compel the pilot to add back pressure like he normally would in a non-FBW aircraft.

[vilas]

BARKINGMAD
The principal of Airbus FBW is that the AC will do the trimming except in Direct Law, also in roll upto 33 degrees it will hold the bank and pitch . This makes flying very simple, you just create the pitch and bank you desire and leave the stick till you wish to change the picture. The AC behaviour from 50 feet you described is called flare mode. Now imagine trying to land this aeroplane without the flare mode. When you flare the AC would have continued to pitch up and auto trim as long as the sidestick was out of neutral. So everytime you raised the nose you would have to keep neutralising the side stick. Also if you flared more and pushed the stick forward it would have auto trimmed downwards. This AC responce is not going to produce good landings with consistancy. The Airbus created the flare mode in which at 50ft RA it stops trimming, at 30 feet it will memorise the attitude and start pitching down wards so now you can keep the back pressure as required without releasing the stick and keep increasing it as the nose keeps dropping. The main problem initially is getting used to the very small input that is needed on side stick as compared to conventional AC where the pressure and amount of movement of the yoke are much larger. However without bothering about the theory if you proceed with landing as any other AC you can get good consistant results.

[BARKINGMAD]

Vilas, sincere thanks for explaining the 'bus philosophy on landing mode(s).

It worries me that such designs seem to ignore the poor chimp who's trying to ignore thousands of years of evolution and is trying to think and operate like the machine?

A case in point is the research done years ago, following the introduction of digital watches, which implied that those who used them were consciously or unconsciously "translating" the digits presented into analogue form.

The recent fad for "track up" similarly ignores the fact that the chimp is sitting aligned physically and mentally (well most of us are!) with the longitudinal axis of the airframe and the new presentation is proving confusing to some. The same confusion has been expressed by new F/Os on type (737NG) so it's not just because I'm one of the old codgers raised in the "steam" days.

Of course the "track up" issue is another potential thread, but again thanks for a very lucid explanation of the 'bus way of doing things. :)