Should I complain about ATC

[Heath Row]

I wish to raise a complaint abut the conduct of a radio operator at XXXX airfield. ( it's an 'information' )

I was the private pilot of G-XXXX and requested airfield information.

Apparently (and I'm quite willing to accept as true) I made a slight error in the read back of the information.

Instead of correcting me, the operator began what i perceived to be an extremely aggressive interrogation of me over the error. I was asked time and time again where I got the information from, and I was told I was 'hearing things' and the correct information was not re-past to me until I requested it again.

I am a low hours (TT 50 ish) pilot, and I had to make a conscious effort to put it out of my mind, so as not to distract me.

I have never experienced anything like it before.

So two questions, do the CAA regulate this service ?

And should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?

[2 sheds]

Heath Row

First, you should correct the title of your thread. If you are indicating that it was a Flight Information Service (you say, rather strangely,"it's an 'information'"), then it is not an ATC unit. According to your occupation, you, of all people, should be precise!

And yes, if it was as you describe, complain to the CAA.

2 s

[Heath Row]

Sure, I was using ATC as a generic term, but will amend!

[2 sheds]

Thank you, HR. The generic - for ATC and FIS - is Air Traffic Services (ATS) - but please feel free to be specific in this instance!

2 s

PS Gis a clue!

[Heath Row]

I don't think I should name the airfield, as he (is / may ) not be here to defend himself.

The whole exchange took about 90s, though, and carried on through other people's requests!

I may be overacting, but it was a huge waste of time, he could have just said 'correction 25R' instead of my 25L ( that wasn't the error, but it was of that sort of magnitude'

[mad_jock]

Use CHIRP.

CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/)

Fire it off to them and they will put it through to the right person at the CAA.

You can get some cracking FISO's and some crap ones just the same as pilots.

Don't take it to heart.

The CAA have in the past taken a rather dim view of FISO's who over step there remit.

And public telling offs on the RT are not the done thing be you AG/FISO/ATCO/PPL/CPL or ATPL.

[ZOOKER]

I don't know for certain but FISO RTF transmissions may be recorded. If you wish to complain do it promptly before the RTF tapes are wiped.

[Argus Tuffit]

"Mmm, I made a slight error in the read back of the information".

I think you will find that in the legal world that is not enough to get you off, being as you profess to being a barrister.

So, to your two questions.

Q1: "Do the CAA regulate this service?"

A: Don't know, but if you wish I will bring your "slight error" to their attention.

And what was your second question?

Q2: Oh, that's right "Should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?"

Hey, you are supposed to be the barrister here and you are asking us?

A: Only you can decide if you can be "bothered to complain". But perhaps a phone call to the "radio operator" and the "CAA" may be the first option that I would explore. But if you are after compensation for hurt feelings, well, my money is on you don't win. But, hey, give it a go if you think that you've got a genuine chance of winning.

Welcome to the real world. Reread line one and maybe do a little more study and gain a little bit more experience before judging others.

:ok:

[Tarq57]

Argus, that's a little out of line.

The entire purpose of a readback is to pick up and correct any errors, as you know full well.

Normally this is done without any rancour whatsoever - it's just a factual exchange.

Or maybe you're just having an anti-barrister day?

[Heath Row]

AT - You'll no doubt be unsurprised to hear I expected a few responses like this. Barristers make mistakes, from time to time, although I'm glad to hear that most people seem to think we're superhuman. Have you never made a mistake??

And I've no doubt that my RT will get more attention from now on, but I also thought that I'd gauge 'public' opinion on here as to whether it should be reported.

[stevep64]

AT is from Argadargada that says a lot ;):E

[Tarq57]

Not only barristers make mistakes, Heath Row. All humans make them. Even pilots, and ATC. It's human nature, and can't be avoided.

Once thought to be infallible, investigators/procedures designers now recognise that aviation professionals can and do fail, and engineer stuff in such a way that it is extremely unlikely that a simple error will result in a major event. A readback is a primitive (and usually fairly effective) example of this.

A way you might find useful to cut down the incidence of reading back the wrong instruction (if you've forgotten what was said, rather than having heard/interpreted it incorrectly) is to develop a shorthamd, for writing involved clearances and info down. ATC do this. It works. The real "agricultural" model involves a chinagraph pencil, and a piece of perspex, such as the one you look at the view through. Cleans off with a chunk of cheescloth.

[Heath Row]

Tarq57 - Of course, and this is rather my point. I wouldn't have considered it an issue, if he'd made a slightly sarcastic comment about reading my own writing, or the like. I'd have taken the rebuke and moved on.

But imagine this - I make the mistake (I assume), and get in response, not "correction, 25 Left Hand" or "Best you write it down sunshine, I said Left" but:

I didn't say Right.
Who told you that,
Where did you get that information?
Tell me, now.
Tell me.
You're hearing things.
Who gave you that information?

In rapid fire quick succession, someone else asks for airfield details, and he then takes up again-

Who told you Right, I didn't say that?
Tell me, who said that?

etc, etc.

For about 90 seconds start to finish! Now that's not a mistake on his part, that's a rather pathetic way to try to exercise some perceived "power" by someone who clearly has, as our American cousins say 'issues' !

[darkroomsource]

I could tell a long story, but the gist of it is this...

CEO gets a speeding ticket, gets to work, yells at VP.
VP yells at secretary. Secretary yells at receptionist.
Receptionist gets home and yells at son, sends him to bed without dinner.
Son sees cat on the way to bed, kicks cat.
Probably would have been better if CEO went to receptionists house and kicked cat himself... but...

the point is, maybe someone had been kicking his cat all day long?

Sometimes we have to change people's perspective... and no, it's not your job to do that, he should have been professional

If I'm in similar circumstances I say something like "I'm sorry, I must have written it down wrong, I am new at this (depending on the circumstance, you might be able to say the dreaded 'Student Pilot'), would you please repeat the instructions". In his mind, all blame is shifted to me, and it usually diffuses the situation, but if someone were to listen to the recording they'd know where the fault truly rests.

Personally, I'd rather have the right information, and work together, than have an accident because I tried to land on 25L instead of 25R and then file a lawsuit from the hospital, or worse, have my wife file a lawsuit.

[DC10RealMan]

Heath Row.

This happened to me once a few years ago flying in Class G airspace, VFR and I "received a blast" from the local RAF unit even though I knew I was completely in the right (legally, morally, airmanshipwise, safetywise).

I called the unit the following day and asked to speak to the SATCO and explained who I was, what the issue was, and why I was phoning and finished by saying that I was about to write to SRG at the CAA about it as I felt it was a safety issue.

The SATCO admitted it was he who had given me the blast and that the reason for doing so was to "discourage" GA flyers from flying near their airfield as they had recently started to fly a new type of aeroplane and to be fair he apologized, so "nuff said" and I ripped up my letter to the CAA.

My point is that I have always felt a telephone call to the unit with a "threat" of taking it further is enough, particularly as such an intimidating manner is not conductive to flight safety especially with new and student pilots who may have been listening in to your transmissions.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

DC10... That's what used to happen donkey's years ago. A quick verbal exchange on the phone and then a pint at the local pub.

If a pilot gets upset with ATC or v.v. it's always a good idea to talk to each other before getting out the pen and paper. However, there is no excuse for admonishments on the R/T.

[RAC/OPS]

Was it Elstree?

[Heath Row]

I'd rather not play guess the airfield!

[soaringhigh650]

Must be Blackbushe or Fairoaks.

[Dg800]

However, there is no excuse for admonishments on the R/T.

If the exchange was even halfway close to what the OP has described, that is not admonishing someone on the R/T but rather sounds like someone having serious personality and self-control issues (colloquially: he has lost it). Not to mention the fact that he's showing a complete and utter lack of professionalism. I don't think that pilots (especially low-hours ones) could benefit from such a distraction in any way. My advice is: report it immediately and in writing, and to hell with all the schoolyard bully types who have already (unsurprisingly) chimed in and will keep doing so.

Ciao,

Dg8000

[2 sheds]

I'd rather not play guess the airfield!

Spoilsport! Seriously, if is was as described - and that is always a caveat - somebody should have his *rs* kicked. What annoys me is that it refects badly on all ATS, as indicated in your initial thread title.

2 s

[Sierra tango]

If you experience a situation as a pilot that has safety implications then please file a report with the caa. But think of it this way your not complaining about an ats provider but reporting a situation so that lessons can be learned (on both sides). If you get the opportunity then tell other parties involved that you intend to file a report to allow them to fill one also so that the incident can be fully investigated.
As atc, we fill them in whenever we have safety concerns, it's not personal, it's about working together to provide safe ats.

ST

[pulse1]

Possibly Goodwood?

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/503150-goodwood-fis.html

[2 sheds]

your (sic) not complaining about an ats provider but reporting a situation so that lessons can be learned (on both sides).

What "lessons can be learned" by both sides? This is too fatuous an excuse nowadays. If it is as described, it is a complaint.

2 s

[LEGAL TENDER]

CEO gets a speeding ticket, gets to work, yells at VP.
VP yells at secretary. Secretary yells at receptionist.
Receptionist gets home and yells at son, sends him to bed without dinner.
Son sees cat on the way to bed, kicks cat.
Probably would have been better if CEO went to receptionists house and kicked cat himself... but...

poor cat :(

[Talkdownman]

Possibly Goodwood?
Not Goodwood.

[Range Rat]

I am a CDO. Those who have to use my service will know what I am and where I am. I would never dream of giving aircrew a hard time. English is often their second or third etc. language . I struggle at the best of times with English. If a mistake is made on readback, I will make sure it is corrected without any verbal hassle. I want the cockpit crew to leave my freq happy and relaxed in the understanding of their clearance. If They call back to confirm again, I will always thank Them for doing the right thing. A happy pilot,going en-route, makes me feel I'm doing my job. Reading back over this reply makes Me sound a bit An-l. So feel free to shoot me down until YOU give Me a call. Regards EGGX.

[chevvron]

It could hardly be Fairoaks as there is no runway 25 there and in any case, although there are several 'Victor Meldrews' who FISO there, they do not do that sort of thing. In the 25L/25R debate I assume you are referring to circuit direction as opposed to multiple runways, in which case Blackbushe has a runway 25 with circuits to the south; work it out for yourself!!

[Plazbot]

This whole thread reads in true law talking dude style. 'Who can I blame and who can I file against?' as opposed to 'whoops, sorry?'

[Talkdownman]

So two questions, do the CAA regulate this service ?

And should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?

The UK CAA regulate Aerodrome FIS provision in the UK.
If you wish to make a complaint contact the CAA Inspector ATS 01293 573352.
The airfield itself might not take any action.

The FISO in question, wherever he/she is, is letting the side down and should be taken to the cleaners, if not, a shrink.

[whosyerdaddy]

Making mischief again TDM? Why not give the tower a ring and talk about it?

[Heath Row]

Plazbot - what crap. I said I'd happily take a rebuke, but lets not forget: 1. The mindset of the pilot has a direct correlation to safety, and, 2. I'm paying for that service.

Would expect a checkout assistant to speak to you like that in fortnum, or where ever you shop? Or how about your lawyer?

If I spoke to a client like that, I'd be disbarred, no two ways about it.

So yes, I thought I'd gauge reaction and then consider whether to complain. Given the protective nature of some ATS operators it appears to me that complaining is absolutely the right thing to do.

[Another_CFI]

Heath Row,

In answer to your questions:-

1) Do the CAA regulate this service ?

Yes. All Flight Informations Service Officers (FISOs) are licensed by the CAA and are subject to competency checks every two years. Additionally the Air Navigation Service Provider is subject to an annual audit by the CAA.

2) Should I bother to complain to the airfield and or the CAA?

In the first instance I would suggest that a face-to-face discussion (not over the radio) with the FISO may resolve the situation. If not then a complaint to the airfield would be appropriate. If neither of these work then it would be appropriate to raise a Mandatory Occurrence Report (MOR) which is sent to the CAA. The text book answer would be that you should raise an MOR but the first two steps may be more pragmatic and produce better results.

It is worth remembering that the recollection of the two parties involved, yourself and the FISO, may be different. In the past I was involved in the management of an Air Traffic Control Unit, where there is a mandatory requirement that all radio transmissions are recorded; unlike a FISO unit where recording is only recommended. On one occasion I received a complaint from a pilot about an Air Traffic Control Officer (ATCO) and also a complaint from the ATCO about the pilot. Both reports were clear, lucid, unambiguous but varied in vital details. A replay of the recordings showed that both reports were mainly correct but that each report had vital errors and omissions which showed that neither party was either entirely guilty or entirely blame free.

[Dg800]

Why not give the tower a ring and talk about it?With such an attitude as that (allegedly) displayed by the FISO in question on the R/T, I'd expect that only to lead to more verbal abuse from him. Since my main concern would then no longer be the safe conduct of the flight my reaction would be very different than while airborne and it would only escalate matters. Much better to go through official channels and then let them sort it out without emotional involvement (well, except for the FISO in question, but his emotional issues are and should remain his only :ok:).

[2 sheds]

Agree entirely with Dg800.

Heath Row - any chance of correcting the thread title on the listing under "ATC Issues"? Come to think of it, it doesn't qualify!

2 s

[Plazbot]

Sure qualifies as a great tear thread. Must have run out of tissues by now.

[Heath Row]

2S - I've tried, without much success! If a Mod wishes to do so, I'd not object.

[chevvron]

An exchange on RTF of this nature, and you don't know who is listening, only brings the FISO profession into disrepute, a simple correction to the readback would have been perfectly sufficient.
I'm always afraid that a 'rebuke' of this nature, especially to someone about to depart (no matter how many hours they have) might 'prey' on their mind causing them to 'miss out' a vital action before takeoff so I would either save it until they return, or if not returning, ask them to phone after they land.
Heath Row: I would suggest you contact the senior FISO at your airfield (if there is one) and ask to visit and observe what goes on in the tower. It's probably not a lot of good complaining to the airport authority as often they have little knowledge of ATS procedures, and would tend to refer it to the FISOs anyway.

[INTERNATIONALATCO]

You should always complain about ATC, its the nature of the beast......:ugh:

[chevvron]

INTERNATIONALATCO: It's best not to comment on things on this forum unless you're sober.

[barrold]

Absolute rubbish.
Another thread gone tangential.

[ZOOKER]

Which, of course, reminds us of 'tangential fade'. :ok:

[On the beach]

'tangential fade'.

Sorry mate, I don't see it.

[Talkdownman]

'tangential fade'
Sorry mate, I don't see it
Ah, maybe you have an empty eye...

[Spitoon]

It was there a minute ago.............

[Lon More]

Last few posts are better than most of the posts in Humour :O

I would go with CHIRP. The name, Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting, says it all and the guidelines are here (http://www.chirp.co.uk/reporting-guidelines.asp)

[andrew_wallis]

I've probably missed a lot of people stating the obvious, but why not ring the unit and speak to the guy once you're on the ground?
You could complain I'm sure, but wouldn't the more constructive thing to do be to ring and speak? Sure, if the guy continues to act like a tit, then report, but why not give him a chance?
It's the best way to find out what was behind his attitude, instead of simply trying to punish him. Makes you the bigger man.

/humour on/
Of course he could always employ a barrister to prove he wasn't even on duty at the time, or you are at fault for not following the correct procedures when you complained.
/humour off/

[Squawk_code]

I've stopped reading most of the posts as it got slightly off task, however....

Did you land at this airfield? Why not pop and see the FISO and talk it over? That way it's problem resolved (or at least should be!) and you can get on with your flying without worrying about it.

Every now and again you'll come across someone a bit ar£ey on the radio, but it happens. Just learn from the unfortunate experience and move on.

I wish you all a happy 2013 :ok:

[Helen49]

Heath Row.......check your PMs