Technical military question

[DuncanMac]

I grew up in a military family (RN/RM - father killed by IRA) but am not military myself. Am embarking on a second career, trying to break into screenwriting - and slowly getting there . . .

A production company are keen to utilise a short screenplay I've written, but I'm hoping to get the technical 'bit' correct, i.e., what would happen/be said within the cockpit (if what I'm trying to portray is even likely - or at least could be accepted for cinematic purposes).

Is it okay to ask you guys on here?

[Old-Duffer]

You can certainly ask here and you will probably get a set of reliable responses.

May I suggest first that you share with us the context of your screenplay. For example, what type of aircraft is it. What stage of flight are you trying to show, what is the crew's operational posture ie are they attacking somebody, flying an SAR sortie, descending to low level. How many crew are we dealing with, are they talking to air traffic or another aircraft?

Old Duffer

[LateArmLive]

Ask away, although be warned - most of the responses you are likely to get will not be from military aircrew.

[Stuff]

Join Date: Oct 2000

May I congratulate you, sir, on more than 12 years of lurking. Excellent work!

[DuncanMac]

Old-Duffer

Thank you very much for replying. The production company in question were basically looking for a screenplay in which Scottish scenery could be utilised as a cinematic back-drop. As a consequence, having spent a chunk of my childhood in Arbroath (45 Commando, etc.) and childhood memories of Lightning and Phantoms from RAF Leuchars overhead, I decided to combine the two, with aspects of my own first career.

"May I suggest first that you share with us the context of your screenplay"

This is probably best explained by posting part of the synopsis (below), the document which attracted the production company. The only aspect which is really relevant to my enquiry I guess, is the last few lines.

Could such an incident realistically take place? Could an audience accept such an event? If so, what would be said between the crew in such an emergency? Any help would be gratefully received!

Thanks in advance . . .


"Leaning against his car savouring a post-drama cigarette, MacDonald watches as first one pair of low flying jets, then another, roar through the glen; twisting and turning. In the distance, the thunder of more aircraft can be heard heading his way.

In one of the Tornados there is an emergency. An automated alarm is sounding. The navigator instructs the pilot to dump superfluous fuel and gain height to ‘buy’ extra time.

A torrent of high octane aviation gasoline cascades towards terra firma - down onto where MacDonald stands smoking. With a whoosh, he is evaporated.

Emergency under control, Flight Lieutenant Siân MacDonald requests her navigator plot a course for RAF Lossiemouth, and home.

She has a reunion later that day with her dying father – the man she hasn’t seen for nine years."

[Pontius Navigator]

To O-D's list may I also add the period for your screen play as patter also changes over time. In the early 60s it was normal on a multi-crew aircraft for hear "Nav to captain" whereas there was a general recognition that it was better to call who you wanted first hence "Captain - Nav . . . " became the pattern.

Amongst 2 seaters things were much less formal and that informality sometime applied between single seater pilots!

[DuncanMac]

"May I congratulate you, sir, on more than 12 years of lurking. Excellent work!"

I always knew I'd use it one day!

[DuncanMac]

Old-Duffer

I did post a lengthy reply. It hasn't yet appeared. I don't want to fill the forum up with my tosh, so will leave it awhile, and see whether it does, before writing it all out again.

Thanks again . . .

Duncan

[MightyGem]

Your first 2 or 3 posts are vetted before they appear.

[Stuff]

In one of the Tornados there is an emergency. An automated alarm is sounding. The navigator instructs the pilot to dump superfluous fuel and gain height to ‘buy’ extra time.

I'm assuming that this emergency has occurred at low level. The immediate actions would be to pull up and zoom climb while conducting the rest of the bold face drill. Dumping fuel would not happen at this stage, in any event, it happens quite slowly in the grand scheme of things and would not lighten the load noticeably.

A more reasonable sequence of events would be a catastrophic loss of thrust resulting in an emergency jettison and our man on the ground getting hit by the falling drop tank. This is still in the realms of improbable fiction but at least it *could* happen.

A torrent of high octane aviation gasoline cascades towards terra firma - down onto where MacDonald stands smoking. With a whoosh, he is evaporated.

Jet aircraft don't run on "high octane aviation gasoline", piston aircraft do. Jets use AvTur which is pretty close to kerosene and is damn dear impossible to set on fire. If you threw a lit cigarette into a tank of the stuff it would put the cigarette out.

Emergency under control, Flight Lieutenant Siân MacDonald requests her navigator plot a course for RAF Lossiemouth, and home.

Despite the name, navigators on Tornados don't generally navigate. The pilot does. The Weapon System Operator (WSO) - the new name for people in the back - would be responsible for updating the nav kit to make sure the aircraft thinks its in the right place, for cueing weapons to target and being an extra brain and pair of eyes in the cockpit.

With a critical emergency you describe above a PAN call would have been issued and D&D would have given the crew a steer to the nearest suitable airfield.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I agree with most of Stuff's post. Hit by a drop tank is highly unlikely but at least credible. It takes ages to light kerosene (I've tried it at a fire drill; took 30 seconds with a burning brand in a pan full of fuel)

The in-cockpit dialogue might go something like
(ba-bang)
Pilot "We've lost power, pulling up"
pause (Nav would wait till climb established - some crews might have the pilot say "ready for checks" or the nav might ask this).
Nav "Check rpms" (no rpm gauges in rear cockpit)
Pilot" zero on the left - seized, the right is at 90%, unstable"
Nav" suggest we jettison"
Pilot "roger, punching the tanks off"
(Thunk as tanks come off)
Nav "Safety altitude is 6,300 ft. Steer 050 for Lossie, 52 miles"
Pilot"Roger, coming starboard 050. Get the cards out for the drills"
etc.

You could, of course, have one of the drop tanks hit the car, which then blows up. In the movies, around 98% of cars blow up - the audience expects it. In reality, according to a California policeman I used to know, about 2% of cars actually blow up in crashes.

[DuncanMac]

Stuff
Thanks for your very detailed reply. Interesting.

I think it's a case of back to the drawing board . . . :-(

D

[DuncanMac]

Fox3WheresMyBanana

Again, thanks for that. That's something I can work with - and much appreciated.

D

[DuncanMac]

"You could, of course, have one of the drop tanks hit the car, which then blows up. In the movies, around 98% of cars blow up - the audience expects it. In reality, according to a California policeman I used to know, about 2% of cars actually blow up in crashes."

Again thanks - I understand the predicament.

I know from my background that Met Police ammo fired into a cars fuel tank has no effect. Fired at a tyre, you've got more chance it'll come back and hit you (and has done in the past). The Home Office are scared you'll shoot an armed blagger during a robbery and it'll go through them and hit others standing at a bus stop. Hence Steven Waldorf surviving five shots to the body in about 1983.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Handy really, considering Waldorf was innocent....

Check PMs

[4Greens]

Fact : Fuel has been dumped at 500ft over fires in tests and had no effect whatsoever. It is dissipated so rapidly in the air that it has no potential for ignition. These tests were done in the US to examine fuel dumping in civil aircraft.

[DuncanMac]

"Handy really, considering Waldorf was innocent...."

Hmmm . . .

Replied to your PM. Thanks.

D

[N2erk]

Further to jet fuel not wanting to burn too badly (it doesn't) and tank jettison-
-maybe jettisoned tanks burst spewing fuel- just the impact of many gallons of AVTUR coming from a tank moving pretty fast could do a person some damage. I've seen water, dropped in fun from waterbombing floats catch one's attention and do damage.:E

[Hempy]

Fox3,

Ask the car wrecker in Darwin who had the one roadworthy vehicle in his whole yard (his personal 4x4) crushed by a USN drop-tank how unlikely it is!!

[Old-Duffer]

How about an emergency which results in the unintended release of a live weapon (they were on their way to a night range detail) and this explodes nearby fatally injuring MacDonald. An alternative might be that he is hit by falling wreckage after the daughter and her WSO are forced to bail out - uncontained engine fire at low level. Pilot and estranged Dad are both flown by Lossie SAR to I/Ness hospital, where connection between the two is made by medic and couple are reunited before clogs are popped by Dad - cue lots of weeping etc, roll final credits!

Whatever, you decide needs to be plausible but some may recall the TV play: 'Friday on My Mind' which was screened circa 1991. RAF brass got upset because 'implausible' plot suggested 'Visiting Officer' was - how can I put this delicately - being over zealous in his attention to the widow of an accident victim. However, this actually happened.

Old Duffer

[DuncanMac]

Old-Duffer

Again, thanks. I'll give all these matters consideration and am sure will come up with a result following all this super input/ideas.

I don't doubt for one moment the contents of your second paragraph - and am aware of something pretty similar. Life is full of weird turns and twists . . .

D

[Pontius Navigator]

While you might get the script word perfect the effect can still be ruined by stereotypical casting.

There was a radio play based on the Black Buck mission. Now they got John Reeve's voice to a T but some of the other characters were caricatured. Clearly the audience can't 'see' uniforms or necessarily remember all the characters in a short radio play hence the device of using words like 'Engineer' vice Tom, Dick, Harry or Sir, but to then give him a broad Scots accents a la Star Trek ruins it. The nature if the beast is that most RAF officers acquire very similar moderated accents - of course that creates its own problem on radio.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Hempy - wrecker wrecked in wrecking yard by piece of junk.

Oh, the irony....That God chap has a b#gger of a sense of humour sometimes! :E

[MightyGem]

The in-cockpit dialogue might go something like
(ba-bang)
Pilot "We've lost power, pulling up"
pause (Nav would wait till climb established - some crews might have the pilot say "ready for checks" or the nav might ask this).
Nav "Check rpms" (no rpm gauges in rear cockpit)
Pilot" zero on the left - seized, the right is at 90%, unstable"
Nav" suggest we jettison"
Pilot "roger, punching the tanks off"
(Thunk as tanks come off)
Nav "Safety altitude is 6,300 ft. Steer 050 for Lossie, 52 miles"
Pilot"Roger, coming starboard 050. Get the cards out for the drills"
etc.

Duncan's version makes better telly though. :E

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I won't give up the day job then!

He asked for correct. What happens between there and the screen I daren't guess. I'm given to understand it usually involves sex, lies, and bribery, but not much doesn't these days........

[DuncanMac]

While you might get the script word perfect the effect can still be ruined by stereotypical casting.

Thank you for the advice - and point taken.

And if you can think of any other stories/tales, waiting to be told, please feel free to contact me.

I'm recently back from a meeting with producers in Los Angeles regarding a full 120 page thriller type screenplay, but to be honest, all they wanted to talk about was a remake of the 1955 film, "The Cockleshell Heroes" - British history/gallantry is still very much a draw to some American producers.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Given your background I'd do the remake. Do your own thing later when you're sitting by your pool in Santa Monica.

[500N]

That would be good.

While they are at it, why not the Singapore Raids as well :ok:


FYI, the Klepper canoe was still being taught in the 1990's as part of
the Water Ops course and probably still is. Plenty of originals still
around here in Aus.

[DuncanMac]

FYI, the Klepper canoe was still be taught in the 1990's . . .

My brother and I had one! Stolen from beneath the nose of Paddy Ashdown - the only Special Forces officer my father didn't have a good word to say about . . .

[500N]

I never knew Paddy Ashdown was in the Royal Marines.
Interesting.


How did it get stolen from under his nose ?

Not the lightest thing to pick up or the easiest
to hide.

[DuncanMac]

I never knew Paddy Ashdown was in the Royal Marines.
Interesting.


How did it get stolen from under his nose ?

Not the lightest thing to pick up or the easiest
to hide.

Yes, he was SBS in the 60's when we lived in Singapore - and I recall seeing him at Stonehouse, Plymouth in 1970, so he was still serving then.

How it was nicked I don't know, but it was eventually given to the RM canoe club at 45 Commando, to use on Roscobie Loch near Forfar, so as it was returned to the Corp, it strictly wasn't stolen but borrowed for several years.

It's forty plus years ago, but I'm sure from memory it had a wooden skeleton type frame and could be dismantled.

[500N]

"I'm sure from memory it had a wooden skeleton type frame
and could be dismantled."

Correct :ok:

Dismantled and folded up in a bag system. Also had a rudder system (or ours did) and covered in Canvas and a bit of rubber.

[DuncanMac]

Also had a rudder system (or ours did) and covered in Canvas and a bit of rubber.

It had that alright.

Australia? "Or ours did"? Your initials aren't P.C. are they?

[500N]

"Australia? "Or ours did"?"
Yes, Australian. I wasn't sure if any changes had been made
and apart from seeing the film Cockleshell Heroes,
I haven't seen one as used by UK forces.

No, initials N.M.

Send me a PM re P.C and which unit and years.
I might know him.

[DuncanMac]

Send me a PM re P.C and which unit and years.


Will do.

D

[Lightning Mate]

DM,

A torrent of high octane aviation gasoline cascades towards terra firma - down
onto where MacDonald stands smoking. With a whoosh, he is evaporated.

I would be careful with that - jets don't use gasolene.

[DuncanMac]

I would be careful with that - jets don't use gasolene.

Yes, STUFF and others have pointed this out to me. I'm sitting here trying to tackle it another way . . .

Thanks though.

[ORAC]

The in-cockpit dialogue might go something like
(ba-bang)
Pilot "We've lost power, pulling up"

Bird strike would fit in well; would allow early footage of golden eagles and a squad of beaters driving a flock of grouse towards a gun party. Later bird strike being caused the eagle tracking a hare alarmed by the father and grouse alarmed by the eagle?

Multiple strikes damaging canopy, taking out one engine, forcing full tank/pylon jettison?

[Easy Street]

If it's a Tornado you can't jettison the pylon, just the tank.

[DuncanMac]

Bird strike would fit in well; would allow early footage of golden eagles and a squad of beaters driving a flock of grouse towards a gun party. Later bird strike being caused the eagle tracking a hare alarmed by the father and grouse alarmed by the eagle?

Multiple strikes damaging canopy, taking out one engine, forcing full tank/pylon jettison?

I like that very much! Followed by Fox3WheresMyBanana cockpit dialogue. Thanks!

Curious, what is a 'pylon' as referred to above?

[ORAC]

Curious, what is a 'pylon' as referred to above?

Hardpoints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardpoint)

[Lightning Mate]

A pylon is a fixture on the aircraft, on which weapons or tanks are installed.

They contain explosive release units, which when activated, ensure positive separation of the stores attached to them from the aircraft.

Pylons cannot be released in flight.

Photo if you wish.

[DuncanMac]

Thanks both! :)

[ORAC]

Pylons cannot be released in flight. Depends on the aircraft. I can recall an F-4 on NQRA doing it in order to make the tanker. As, it would seem, could the F-111 (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=of0lJiN3XiEC&pg=SA1-PA85&lpg=SA1-PA85&dq=F-4+pylon+jettison&source=bl&ots=E4u2KiFL4H&sig=BJXJ72S7nuLQiOYNomKUD3MnMEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5PLOUI2CDKWc0QWBzIGwBA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=F-4%20pylon%20jettison&f=false)

Even just the stores can be interesting....... :ooh:

HOvDEgWiAR4

[ORAC]

May be of interest. TV news report of F-16 jettison of fuel tanks and 2x500lb bombs.

HkbPm3jEeqs

[DuncanMac]

Thanks.

I don't know what's wrong with my PC set up, but I can see the YouTube links/picture posted on this site, but when I play it, I lose the image/film but do hear the commentary/music. However, if I drag my cursor over the red playing line at the bottom of the film, I'm able to view the content frame by frame.

I'm not very technical . . .

[Hempy]

Duncan, update your flashplayer Adobe - Install Adobe Flash Player (http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/)

[ORAC]

The YouTube logo on the bottom right of the insert gives the option of watching direct on You Tube if you hover your cursor over it. Click on it and it should open in another tab direct in YouTube

[kbrockman]

Maybe you can go on a more political correct storytelling route and let him
die of his cigarette smoke?
Would potentially be a lot less dramatic and take a bit more time though.

[DuncanMac]

ORAC

May be of interest. TV news report of F-16 jettison of fuel tanks and 2x500lb bombs.

That's informative and explains what others have said. Thanks.

Hempy

Duncan, update your flashplayer Adobe - Install Adobe Flash Player

Thanks, did that but will have to have another go.

kbrockman

Maybe you can go on a more political correct storytelling route and let him die of his cigarette smoke?

Hmmm, I've done my bit for the PC brigade by making his kid a daughter.

[Gnd]

What about getting hit by hot fireworks, can a Tonka be left 'unsafe' and if a trigger is on the ground, set them off? 8+ hot whummps would smart (or blind them)? Running out of a well known area close to Hadrians wall!!!!

[kbrockman]

"In one of the (Tornados)=RAAF F111's there is an emergency. An automated alarm is sounding. The navigator instructs the pilot to dump superfluous fuel, light the afterburner and gain height to ‘buy’ extra time.

A torrent of high octane aviation gasoline cascades towards terra firma , ignited by the engines - down onto where MacDonald stands smoking. With a whoosh, he is evaporated.

Emergency under control, Flight Lieutenant Siân MacDonald requests her navigator plot a course for RAF Lossiemouth, and home.


TFjycL0qEgs


Voila, problem solved, dramatic effects intact!!

[Gnd]

OK, Get a DDH to sign that one off!!!!!

[ORAC]

Mirage F1 bird strike with emergency jettison and relight

B0G1bPjoiJM

F16 bird strike followed by ejection

zN_Zl64OQEw

[Pontius Navigator]

, all they wanted to talk about was a remake of the 1955 film, "The Cockleshell Heroes" - British history/gallantry is still very much a draw to some American producers.

Ah yes, dastardly cunning British make sneak attack against the French, saved at the last minute by heroic German defence.

Seriously, I doubt you can better the beach scene, Trevor Howard starts to go up the beach, behind his back the sgt major salutes, a count of 3 later Howard returns the salute in the full and confident knowledge that he is returning the sgt maj's salute to his back. Pure timing and realism.

[NutLoose]

A pylon is a fixture on the aircraft, on which weapons or tanks are installed.

They contain explosive release units, which when activated, ensure positive separation of the stores attached to them from the aircraft.

Unless it is a Jaguar, then they removed the cartridges out of the pylons carrying the Jamming pod and Phimats as it was getting to expensive and producing a shortage with every man and his dog banging them off at the slightest wiff of a problem, thats if memory serves me correctly.

[BossEyed]

F16 bird strike followed by ejection

Not that it makes much difference, but that one's a Hawk (in Canada) - not an F-16. For those who don't already know, see the shadows of the seats leaving the aircraft at 0:56?

DuncanMac, looking forward to the movie. :ok:

[DuncanMac]

BossEyed

DuncanMac, looking forward to the movie.

Thanks, but it's only a "short" - something given away free by a writer to a production company, in order to add to their CV . . . and attract the big boys regarding 120 pagers.

I'm overwhelmed by the help and professionalism given by folk on this site.

If ever anyone wants advice on criminal law in the UK, feel free to drop me a PM. Likewise, civil or criminal law in the USA. My partner is a Federal Judge and she too appreciates the assistance you guys have given me. No doubt, I'll be back for more.

Thank you again.

Duncan

[Lightning Mate]

Unless it is a Jaguar, then they removed the cartridges out of the pylons
carrying the Jamming pod and Phimats as it was getting to expensive and
producing a shortage with every man and his dog banging them off at the
slightest wiff of a problem, thats if memory serves me correctly.

Your memory serves you well.

[HighTow]

I'm recently back from a meeting with producers in Los Angeles regarding a full 120 page thriller type screenplay, but to be honest, all they wanted to talk about was a remake of the 1955 film, "The Cockleshell Heroes" - British history/gallantry is still very much a draw to some American producers. Then for lords sake get them to do something about the Glider Pilot Regiment. If one group of soldiers has ever been deserving of a full length movie tribute it's them. Heck, based on the stories and interviews I've done with them over the years you could make a Band-of-Brothers style TV epic.

[MSOCS]

Don't use phrases such as 'Port' and 'Starboard' - such terms left military aviation speak aaaaaages ago. It's simply left and right these days.

[Party Animal]

DuncanMac,

Whatever you do, don't forget at least one of the crew must have a handlebar moustache (probably the female) and you must incorporate the lines 'jolly good show', 'spiffing', 'tally ho', 'break right' and 'over and out' everytime someone talks on a radio.

;)

[DuncanMac]

HighTow

Then for lords sake get them to do something about the Glider Pilot Regiment.

I'll send you my email address.

[NutLoose]

You could always move the Story to Australia and use an F-111 doing a dump and burn, see

F111 Final Dump & Burn - Williamtown Airshow 2010 - YouTube

That the effect you wanted?

[Pontius Navigator]

PA, roger that.

[DuncanMac]

The rights to the short screenplay that resulted from the information supplied by you on this thread, resulted in a US producer acquiring an option on the work.

Furthermore, an Irish acting group requested permission to utilise it for tuition purposes.

Thanks.

[NutLoose]

Excellent outcome, well done :)

[Lonewolf_50]

Duncan: congratulations! :ok:

[DuncanMac]

Thank you.

I recall someone suggesting writing a screenplay about the glider pilots of WW2, however, my late wifes mother served (office based) with the SOE in the war, which has led me wanting to attempt something about the brave Lysander pilots of 161 Squadron - so no doubt will be back with more questions.

[Milo Minderbinder]

DuncanMac

if you want to learn about the SOE squadrons, I suggest you start here

operationdarkofthemoon : Operation: Dark of the Moon (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationdarkofthemoon/)

its aimed at the deeds of 148 Squadron, but as they say "discussion is invited about ANY 'Special Duties-S.O.E' Squadron, and their operations"

[DuncanMac]

Milo Mindbender

Super link. Thank you.

D

[dmussen]

I recall an 4FTS Hunter from Valley leaving one in a field near Shawbury in '73ish.
I witnessed an RAAF Mirage circling Bunker Bay in Western Australia at very low level in the early eighties.
Not hard to work out what he was looking for as the aircraft did look somewhat lopsided.

[Maxibon]

You could go for a silent film approach as briefed to me by a certain staff-mate at Brawdy; a man who saw no reason for navs with his Jaguar background - "sit in the back, turn your mike off, and shut the f**k up". Must have been awfully quiet in the 'Berra before being sent jags :ok:

[DuncanMac]

Several years ago a number of you gentlemen helped me out with a technical question. I wonder if I can trouble you again . . .

Red tactical lighting - is it still used, or, like the US (?), is green lighting now used? I'm trying to describe the interior of a RAF C-130 prior to a night training HALO jump in 1998 - and am a stickler for detail. If green lighting is now used, what year did red stop being used?

Thanks in advance.

[NutLoose]

Bump, for help, I know the Chinook when it came into service had blue green cockpit lighting to be compatible with NVG's.