Aircraft approach category question

[WhySoTough]

"The criteria taken into consideration for the classification of aircraft by categories is the indicated airspeed at threshold (VAT) in landing configuration at the maximum certified landing weight i.e. VAT = 1.3 VS or VAT = 1.23 VS1G (fly-by-wire aircraft)."

I don't quiet understand this, especially the 1.23 VS1G.
Would appreciate some explanation please?

Also while on the topic, I want to understand why an a330 is a CAT C whilst an a321. Is a CAT D?

Thanks in advance guys.

[BOAC]

I guess it is down to how manufacturers derive Vat?

Re 330/321 - could that be due to Vat?

[9.G]

wst, 1,23 due to FBW. A321 is CAT D due to high V approach. A330 is slower hence cat C. :ok:

[BOAC]

There you go, wst - simple!

This from a 2009 PPRune post - bear in mind the FCOM reference may be out-of-date

"According to Airbus F-COM 3.04.10

VS or Stalling speed, it is not displayed. Moreover, for a conventional A/c, the reference stall speed, VSmin is based on a load factor that is less than 1g. This gives a stall speed that is lower than than the stall speed at 1g.

All operating speeds are expressed as functions of this speed (for instance VREF = 1.3 VSmin). Because A/c of the A320 family have a low speed protection featute (alpha limit) that the flight crew can not override, the airworthiness authorities have reconsidered the definition of stall speed for these A/c.

All operating speeds must be referenced to a speed that can be demonstrated by flight test. The speed is designated as VS1g. Airworthiness authorities have agreed that a factor of .94 represents the relationship between VS1g for A/c of the A320 family and VSmin for conventional A/c types. As a result tha authorities allow A/c of the A320 family to use the following factors:
V2 = 1.2 * .94 VS1g = 1.13 VS1g
VREF = 1.3 * .94 VS1g = 1.23 VS1g

FCOM concludes by saying that the A319,320,321 hav exactly the same maneuver margin that a conventional A/c would have at its reference speeds."

[FE Hoppy]

1.23 isn't just for FBW.
CS-25 calls for VSR to be calculated under 1g whereas in the past this wasn't the case.

1.23 VS1g gives the same margin as 1.3 oldschool Vs

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Think the Q400 was 1.23 too, although cant find a reference.

[jersey145]

My outfits 773s are CAT D but the A380 is CAT C! :}

[safelife]

The category doesn't depend on the weight or size, just on the approach speed at maximum landing weight.
A CRJ100 is Cat D for example.

[Citation2]

My 2 pence input:

On FBW aircraft Vref is referenced to VS1g instead of VS like on a conventional aircfraft.
As a reminder VS1g speed corresponds on the polar curve to CL max , situated on top of the curve. Whereas Vs speed is situated downwards , lower on the curve.

VS1g is the minimum speed achievable at 1g which means that the aircraft still flies at VS1g and not in a stall like it would be at VS.

Having said that , I would add that the reference used on FBW VS1g, is a higher speed than VS.

Now if the reference speed is higher, then the increment has to be lower in order to keep the same equation

Vref= 1,3 VS
VS=0,94 VS1g

Vref= 1,3x0,94= 1,222 VS1g

Airbus , authorities rounded up and retained 1,23 VS1g

So mathematically speaking 1,23 VS1g is even higher than 1,3 VS.


Practical example:

Aircraft stall speed : 94 kt
Then Vs 1g = 100kt

Vref referenced to VS would give 1,3x94= 122,2 kt
Vref referenced to Vs1g: 1,23x 100 kt=123 kt
Now which one is higher?
So why some people think that 1,23 vs1 g is a lower speed than 1,3 VS?

[aterpster]

The 727s, at least at my airline, were CAT C for straight-in, CAT D for circling.

[Citation2]

It is not possible by definition to be CAT C for straight in and CAT D for circling, unless your airline has wrongly interpreted Aircraft Category definition.

What determines the aircraft category in which you fall in, is the Vat , which is the speed at threshold called also Vref

You could be doing 160 kts on final or 180 kts in a circling , you are still in C category as long as your Vref is within 121 -140 kts at threshold.

In ICAO document 8168 , There is a range of speeds for each aircraft category depending on the position you are in the approach:

As an exemple for CAT C :
Vat: 121-140 kts
Range of final approach speed:115 - 160 kts
Circling : max speed 180 kts
Initial approach: 160-240 kts
Etc..

So if you are doing 180 kt during circling approach you are still not in D category as , your Vref will still be in the C category when you cross the threshold

Unless you decide to land at 180 , in that case you will be in E !

Also landing fees, are based on Aircraft Category. The higher the category , the higher the landing fees.
But you will not pay a higher price if you were doing 180 kt in circling , as your threshold speed was still the same.

[westhawk]

So if you are doing 180 kt during circling approach you are still not in D category

If ever flying within the USA or any other country with similar rules, please take note of the following:

NOTE-
Refer to 14 CFR 91.175 (i).
5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures
a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF is not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certified landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certified landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. A pilot must use the minima corresponding to the category determined during certification or higher. Helicopters may use Category A minima. If it is necessary to operate at a speed in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for an aircraft's category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 knots, must use the approach Category D minimums. As an additional example, a Category A airplane (or helicopter) which is operating at 130 knots on a straight-in approach must use the approach Category C minimums.

Best wishes,

westhawk

[de facto]

So if you are doing 180 kt during circling approach you are still not in D category as , your Vref will still be in the C category when you cross the threshold

APPrOaCH category is for straight in and is based on Vref (vat 1.3vso or 1.23 vsr whichever is higher)
CIRCLING approach category has nothing to do with VREF (your aircraft aproach category), it is solely based on the SPEED you are going to fly it.

[compressor stall]

It is not possible by definition to be CAT C for straight in and CAT D for circling, unless your airline has wrongly interpreted Aircraft Category definition.


Yes it is possible, due to the design speed limitations. Under both PANS-OPS and TERPS.

[Microburst2002]

Higher speed during the circling, higher radius of turn, higher circling minima required

[Roger Greendeck]

'APPrOaCH category is for straight in and is based on Vref (vat 1.3vso or 1.23 vsr whichever is higher)
CIRCLING approach category has nothing to do with VREF (your aircraft aproach category), it is solely based on the SPEED you are going to fly it.'

I would like to see a reference for this from the country that you're flying in. The only references I have seen define catagory on Vref (based on stall speed at max landing weight).

The wording differs from country to country but most allow operators to choose to fly at a higher catagory to allow the aircraft to be operated at a higher speeds during the approach. Everywhere I have flown also requires you to use a higher catagory if you have a malfunction that drives your Vref up. For example if you are Cat B and have a flap failure then your Vref may now be in Cat C.

[de facto]

I would like to see a reference for this from the country that you're flying in. The only references I have seen define catagory on Vref (based on stall speed at max landing weight).

APPROACH category is decided by the operator with the blessing of its regulator and is for STRAIGHT IN ONLY ,it is based on VAT at max landing weight and pilots can increase lets say from C to D in case of higher vref.

CIRCLING category is NOT based on APPROACH categore but on SPEED one is to fly the circle portion of the maneuver.

FAA allows pilots to increase but not decrease their APPROaCH category.
Check FAA docs in their website.

[Roger Greendeck]

The FAA reference, already quoted above, explains how catagory is determined. It does not say that it does not apply for circling. It does say you can choose to use a higher catagory if you want to take advantage of the higher circling speeds. So even if you can comply with the approach speeds for the catagory you can't drop down a Cat. ie even if you may be flying an aircraft with a Vat of 145 kts and could conceivably fly an approach, including circling, within Cat C speeds that would not be legal. Likewise if your aircraft only just fits into a Cat at max landing weight you can't drop down when at a lower weight.

The is only one type of catagory, that is instrument approach catagory. There is separate circling catagory. Not sure of the legality of operating in one cat for straight-in and another for circling.

[AerocatS2A]

Jeppesen Aus states you can circle at a higher category if you wish provided you comply with the restrictions for the higher category. Basically if you need more room to manoeuvre you can use the larger circling area of a higher category provided you also use the higher obstacle clearance altitude.

[Citation2]

De facto : sorry, but the Cat is not determined with the speed you fly in the portion of the manoeuvre.

Any Category whether A, B , C , or D has a wide variety of speed range to allow flexibility to the operator and the maximum speeds are used to calculate the protection.

Again, a C aircraft can fly up to 180 kts during a circle to land . Please refer to your jeppesen or wikipedia.
I accept the fact that FAA might have different rules. But this is not the case in ICAO, and Eu Ops world.Aircraft category is based on Vref which is the threshold crossing speed, regardless of your downwind speed or circling speed.

Now the example given in your FAA document is not clear:

*"For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 kts must use the category D minimum"

Firstly you are not supposed to exceed the maximum speed for your aircraft category, for a circle to land. As previously sated there is a range of speeds within which you must be inside during your approach.

For a CAT B aircraft the maximum speed authorised during a circle to land is 135 kts
For a Cat C aircraft the maximum speed authorised for a circle to land is 180 kts
For a D aircraft the maximum speed authorised for a circle to land is 205 kts

So if your aircraft category is B and you are doing 145 in a circling you are not respecting the speeds for your aircraft category.*

Could be that FAA does not specify a range of speeds for each aircraft category, or a maximum speed in circle to land.. But ICAO does.

Circling to land approaches with PAN OPS criteria , have been designed according to ICAO document 8168 volume 2. Which means they are calculated with Maximum speeds for each category as laid down in the document.

The design is based on the maximum speed for the category. For a C aircraft , the maximum speed in a circle to land is 180 kt. So all margins , areas of protections are designed and based on that maximum speed.

If you are doing lower than 180 kt, you will be inside the protection as your radius will be lower.

I recall a question that many examiners ask during oral test, or type rating : what is the maximum speed allowed in a circle to land for a C aircraft? Answer : 180 kts.

Moreover I have seen many approach charts with pan ops criteria specifying under the circle to land box, the max speed for the category just in front of minimas.
A-->100*
B-->135
C-->180
D-->205

[de facto]

Citation2
:}:}:}:}

You are confused because the same name (aircraft category)is used in both the approach category (straight in)and the circling maneuver.


A category of an aircraft is dependent on its VAT ..not the circle!!!!!!!!!
I recall a question that many examiners ask during oral test, or type rating : what is the maximum speed allowed in a circle to land for a C aircraft? Answer : 180 kts.
It is a wording issue,a B737 with a mac landing weight of 65.3T(cat C) may have to perform a circle at higher speed than 180 kts due to flap failure,(lets say 200kts),it will use cat D minima(higher MDA) even though it is STILL a CAT C category.
Get it?
AerocatS2A

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,595
Jeppesen Aus states you can circle at a higher category if you wish provided you comply with the restrictions for the higher category. Basically if you need more room to manoeuvre you can use the larger circling area of a higher category provided you also use the higher obstacle clearance altitude.

Correct!
Your aircraft is still a CAT C (this will NOt change,its fixed by the operator)but you as pilot may use CAT D CIRCLING minima because of higher SPEED due to flaps malfunction for example.
Likewise if your aircraft only just fits into a Cat at max landing weight you can't drop down when at a lower weight.
Correct.

[9.G]

Aircraft approach category - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_approach_category). It's the actual speed for the circling. As already mentioned I can fly it in clean config due to whatever reason but gotta use minima accordingly. :ok:

[Citation2]

De facto: I think you misunderstood me. This is from Airbus FCTM
"The circling area which ensures obstacle clearance is based on a maximum speed of 180 kt for Category C aircraft (ICAO PANS-OPS and JAR OPS) "

If you are in an abnormal situation such as flap failure your Vref is going to be directly affected.On A320 , flaps 0 landing will result in a Vref+60 . So you will obviously be in a higher Category , because the Vref was directly affected and not because you chose to fly faster in a portion of the approach.

Not even talking about circling, If in abnormal condition your vref ( vref is Vat or speed at threshold) is let's say 165 kt even for a straight in ILS approach, you will use D category.

Now in normal situation regarding circle to land , you will not change your aircraft category because you are flying faster as a maximum speed has been taken into consideration for each cat A, B , C, or D

If your final approach speed Vref is within 121 and 140 kts, You are in the C category , you are allowed to fly up to 180 kt in a circle to land.

If your Vref is between 141-165 kt, you are in the D Category, you are allowed to fly up to 205 kts in a circle to land.

This is PAN OPS regulation and how obstacle clearance is calculated using the Max speed for the category.

You could be doing a low as 121 kts on final, but ICAO designed for you a circle to land protection based on 180 kt, without the need of changing your category. This has been catered for in PAN OPS

FAA, terps approach have different rules and do not have such wide protections as PAN OPS. So if you are doing 180 kts in a circle to land designed according to TERPS, you will have to use the next higher category.

If you are performing a circle to land designed according to PAN OPS regulations , wider protections with max speed are provided without having to go on the next higher category.

Airbus FCTM :In regions where FAA TERPS criteria apply, the circling areas and limit speeds are more restrictive

[roulishollandais]

Pansops is not an OACI recomandation but a work document. Each State does its national regulation wich is published. Reserves can be done to the annex and must be declared.

Wiki is not a reference!!

[westhawk]

A real world example of how to determine which minimums are applicable to your aircraft for an IAP according to FAA guidance:

Lear 60 max ldg wt Vref = 139 KIAS. Airplane is an approach category C aircraft. Aircraft only fit into ONE approach speed category according to the MLW Vref or 1.3 Vso. The LR60 is a Cat C aircraft. Cat C landing minima are the lowest which may be used. However if the approach speed to be flown is greater than 140 KIAS then cat C minima is no longer applicable. The minima which are applicable to the ACTUAL approach speed to be flown during the approach MUST be used.

A typical situation encountered on a routine basis might go like this:

A single runway airport has a GPS-A as it's only published IAP. No straight-in mins are published and circling will be required. Calculated Vref at arrival weight will be 136 KIAS. For circling the 60 a speed of Vref + 12 (Vac) is indicated so Vapp will be 148 KIAS. Therefore the Cat D minima are the lowest which may be used even though the LR60 is certified as a Cat C aircraft. Clear as mud now? Anyway that's how we have to do it in FAA land unless we were flying in the airspace of another country with more restrictive rules. We are obligated to respect whichever is more restrictive.

Best,

westhawk

[de facto]

Citation 2 i see what u mean now, yes i agree,if flap failure your vref will be affected during a circling maneuver and you will be restricted to a max speed ie 205 kts if your vref was lets say 195 kts.your aircraft even thou being cat c ,you will fly cat d minima.
Cat C in that condition is STILL you certified approach category though.

I fully agree with westhawk post above.

[aterpster]

Citation:

You could be doing 160 kts on final or 180 kts in a circling , you are still in C category as long as your Vref is within 121 -140 kts at threshold.

You obviously don't have a handle on the situation.

My "clueless" airline was TWA, that owned some 50 727s and had a very close relationship with Boeing.

I believe it was the way the airplane was certified but I am not sure of that. What I am sure of is TWA's prescribed speed for the 727's CTL procedure fell into Category D, at least at, or near, max landing weight.

[737-NG]

Have not studied the JAR nor ICAO rules yet but FAA says a circling approach must provide a minimum of 300 feet of obstacle clearance within the circling approach area. The size of this area depends on the category which the aircraft operates.

Category A= 1.3 mile radius
Category B= 1.5 mile radius
Category C= 1.7 mile radius
Category D= 2.3 mile radius
Category E= 4.5 mile radius

Digging deeper into my FAR/AIM I get this from CFR Part 91:

"An aircraft can only fit into one approach category. If it is necessary to manoeuver at speeds in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for each category, the minimum for the next higher approach category should be used"

So a Cat C aircraft would become Cat D, and so on.

But I do think Citation2 has a point.(règles DGAC-JAR je suppose??)

[de facto]

"An aircraft can only fit into one approach category. If it is necessary to manoeuver at speeds in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for each category, the minimum for the next higher approach category should be used"

Agree.only one certified approach category but minima of a higher may be used due to non normal higher SPEED (which indirectly comes from a higher VREF.)
So a Cat C aircraft would become Cat D, and so on.
No you dont become cAt D,you remain cat C but you use cat D minima.
Your catc is FIIIiiIiIiIiXxxxxxxED by operator/regulator!:}:}:}:}

The radius of protection you showed is for TERPS,PaNOPs are wider.

[737-NG]

:8 Oooh come on de facto, you know what I meant!

[9.G]

C2, there're 2 types of approaches straight in and circle to land.
Aircraft categories are defined for a straight in, as you've stated, as per Vat.
Circling, missed approach and take off aircraft categorization is defined with max speed for maneuvering. The relevance of this is that for a straight in approach you'll use the minima for the declared category by the operator regardless of the Vapp flown whereas for circling you'll apply the minima for the actual speed flown. Best example for that, again as you stated, is when you're CAT C for a straight as per PANS OPS but gotta fly a circle to land as per TERPS. Automatically you'll be in the cat D for circling thus using CAT D minima. :ok:

[BOAC]

This is a very complex and confusing situation needing careful attention and not helped by posters here who are not stating whether their figures are TERPS or PANSOPS. I am having difficulty finding references for TERPS approach categories - I have always assumed they are the same as PANSOPS which I believe are ICAO - 90/120/140/165. Can anyone confirm?

The main area of confusion for me is in circling - PANSOPS max speeds are clearly defined - 100/120/180/205. . I cannot find TERPS. Posters above (9.g + westhawk) are suggesting that TERPS max circling speeds are the same as the TERPS approach category speeds - is this correct?

FAA/ICAO links would be nice.

[aterpster]

Federal Aviation Reg: § 97.3 Symbols and terms used in procedures.

As used in the standard instrument procedures prescribed in this part--

Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF is not specified, 1.3 Vso at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, Vso, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. The categories are as follows--

(1) Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.

(2) Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.

(3) Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.

(4) Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.

(5) Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.


FAA Aeronautical Information Manual:

5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures

a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF is not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certified landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certified landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. A pilot must use the minima corresponding to the category determined during certification or higher. Helicopters may use Category A minima. If it is necessary to operate at a speed in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for an aircraft's category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 knots, must use the approach Category D minimums. As an additional example, a Category A airplane (or helicopter) which is operating at 130 knots on a straight-in approach must use the approach Category C minimums. See the following category limits:

1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.

2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.

3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.

4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.

5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.

[Fullblast]

C2, there're 2 types of approaches straight in and circle to land.
Aircraft categories are defined for a straight in, as you've stated, as per Vat.
Circling, missed approach and take off aircraft categorization is defined with max speed for maneuvering. The relevance of this is that for a straight in approach you'll use the minima for the declared category by the operator regardless of the Vapp flown whereas for circling you'll apply the minima for the actual speed flown. Best example for that, again as you stated, is when you're CAT C for a straight as per PANS OPS but gotta fly a circle to land as per TERPS. Automatically you'll be in the cat D for circling thus using CAT D minima.


Agree with you, it might be just wording, but to me some posters are saying something different. It seems that someone is upgrading the straight-in app. minima in case of higher Vref.
You say Vapp, that's not the same as Vref, what do you exactly mean?

FB

[BOAC]

Thanks - that confirms a significant difference between ICAO and TERPS. Under ICAO, the max circling speeds are separately defined. Under TERPS they relate to Approach category, which for most 737/AB drivers NB puts you in Cat D for all circling on TERPS, eg Greece (I believe still??), Israel, and North Am.

Incidentally, the FAA doc may be out of date as it does not mention 1.23 Vs1g - or is this not recognised in FAA land?

[27/09]

aterpster

If it is necessary to operate at a speed in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for an aircraft's category, the minimums for the higher category must be used.

For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 knots, must use the approach Category D minimums. As an additional example, a Category A airplane (or helicopter) which is operating at 130 knots on a straight-in approach must use the approach Category C minimums. See the following category limits:


The first part of of you post that is highlighted is correct however you are using the wrong speeds when selecting which category minima applies.


As you stated a Cat B aircraft is one where VRef falls between 91 and 120 kts. However the maximum speed inside the final fix for a Cat B aircraft is 130 kts and max circling speed is 135 Kts so the Cat A aircraft operating at 130 kts can use Cat B minima for the straight in approach and not Cat C as you stated.

The Cat B aircraft you mention at 145 knots can use Cat C circling minima as the max Cat C circling speed is 180 knots.

The table in this Wiki article lays it out quite clearly.

Aircraft approach category - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_approach_category)

With further reading I see the FAA and some other jurisdictions do it differently and just as aterpster quoted.

It's just as well we all do it to the book, just depends on which book. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[de facto]

BOAC,

TERPS and PANOPS both group aircraft into categories based on VREF.
PANOPs is using higher speeds for circling (ie cat C up to 180kts) hence a larger radius required (max 4.2 rather than 1.7NM for USTERPS).
Min vis PANOPS circling is 2NM , USTERPS is less(1.3NM).
I cannot find TERPS. Posters above (9.g + westhawk) are suggesting that TERPS max circling speeds are the same as the TERPS approach category speeds - is this correct?

I believe it is ,as there is no mention of any difference and required visibility is lower for USTERPS,which makes sense as your radius clearance is also lower.

[aterpster]

27/09:

The first part of of you post that is highlighted is correct however you are using the wrong speeds when selecting which category minima applies.

I am not using anything. That is a direct quote from the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual. I did add the bold for emphasis, however.

[9.G]

Fullblast, it's Vref sorry I just used airbus term. Vapp is Vref+approach correction. However that's not the point. The point here is how to use this classification on a daily basis. Let's take an example of a A 321 with higher gross weight fitting into CAT D for a straight in. We fly IAP as per PANS OPS 4. Now, what minima will be applicable for circling? Is it CAT D or C? Surely with flaps 3 and gear down the IAS during circling won't be higher than 180 Kts will it? IN this case for a straight in I must use CAT D minima and for a circling I can elect to use CAT C. On the the other hand A 330-CAT C with flaps/slats stuck at 0. Which minima is applicable for a straight in and for a circling? Is it CAT C or D? IAS flown in this case is 182Kts. I've seen some guys using CAT C for a straight-in others used D. Which one is correct that's the question? It's definitely D for circling though. Funny enough if you look at the approach plate straight-in landing minima has only reference to the aircraft category whereas circle to land to the max Kts. IAS.

BOAC, glad you got figured that one out. :ok:

[BOAC]

I think having looked deeper, even the FAA appear confused!

I have yet to see, on a TERPS chart (JEPP) any circling minima defined by Approach Category, simply by circling speed which is a far better and easily applied figure. Thus in FAAland, where 5.4.7 states 'must use the approach Category D minimums' for circling it is not necessary, since speeds are the governing factor both under PANSOPS and TERPS, and are tabulated on chart minima for TERPS. The one thing a pilot will readily know is the speed at which he plans to circle, be it iaw SOP or with some particular situation on the day. In Pansops you are 'required' to know and apply the max circling speeds for each approach category.

Apart from the often discussed idea of 'harmonising' circling areas between TERPS and PANSOPS, I do feel it is time for a change, preferably by PANSOPS, to display circling minima based clearly on circling speeds rather than 'approach category'. IE For a 'Cat C approach a/c' (eg 737-700) why not have PANSOPS display minima for '180/205' instead of 'Cat C/Cat D'.

What say the masses? Will it make life simpler?

[aterpster]

Jepp uses speed for circling. For the U.S. these are the same speeds set forth in FAR Part 97.

The FAA does not use speed on its AeroNav Services chart.

They all can be viewed at:

Digital Terminal Procedures/Airport Diagrams (http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/d_tpp)

[de facto]

Apart from the often discussed idea of 'harmonising' circling areas between TERPS and PANSOPS, I do feel it is time for a change, preferably by PANSOPS, to display circling minima based clearly on circling speeds rather than 'approach category'. IE For a 'Cat C approach a/c' (eg 737-700) why not have PANSOPS display minima for '180/205' instead of 'Cat C/Cat D'.


Approach category is i believe a wrongly chosen word,they(PANOPS)also use 'circling category'which i prefer and clearly is based on SPEED.
Circling category 1,2,3,4.rather than A,B,C,D.... based on SPEED would clear confusion.

[BOAC]

aterp - You have not passed any comment on my query. I don't see it relevant what the FAA do or do not do on "AeroNav Services charts" whatever they are. What is relevant is what pilots will be looking at in the cockpit which are the charts provided by the 'charters'. What will happen to JEPP for example? Will it go to 'Category'? I personally think this is a retrograde step.

de f - yes thank you for correcting that - it is in fact more correctly a 'Circling approach category' in PANSOPS (and in the new FAA charts). I take it from your post that you would be in favour of my suggestion - just a display of speeds?

[de facto]

I take it from your post that you would be in favour of my suggestion - just a display of speeds?

DEFINITIVELY.

[aterpster]

BOAC:

Jepp changed from Categories to speed for circle to land several years ago.

Aero Nav Services is a division of the FAA. I provided the link for anyone who may be interested in seeing how lousy FAA charts are.

[BOAC]

Jepp changed from Categories to speed for circle to land several years ago.
- I know - have used them for several years. Is the ANS format new or has it always been that way? The question will be from where will chart providers take their information in the future?What is your position on my query??

[aterpster]

BOAC:

- I know - have used them for several years. Is the ANS format new or has it always been that way? The question will be from where will chart providers take their information in the future?What is your position on my query??

I'm sure we both have. Having said that I have no recollection about when Jepp changed from categories to speed. I am certain, though, they intend to remain with speed. The other makes far less sense.

The FAA charting service is, and always has been, wrapped around its own axle. But, their charts are free, so virtually all non-commercial pilots in the U.S. use them.

Following for the lurkers is Jepp's format, first at a PANS-OPS 4 airport, then at a TERPS airport in the U.S.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/JeppCTLFormat_zps1248d5e9.jpg

[BOAC]

Having said that I have no recollection about when Jepp changed from categories to speed. - It is several years since I circled 'in anger' on a Jepp PANSOPS chart and I had not noticed the change on those charts from Cat to speeds like the TERPS charts (obviously a 'Rip van Winkle' moment....). Thus it looks as if all my wishes have been granted and I have no more 'campaigning' to do.:)

We started talking about Cat for circling mid thread. Perhaps we just need now to stop talking about 'approach categories' wrt circling (as the FAA seem to in your/Westhawk's quote) and just talk about speeds as per the charts, so all references to 'Cat' wrt circling in this thread now become 'speed'. Much simpler. As said here by many, it is circling speed that governs circling minima, not Vat.

I'll go and take my tablets.

[roulishollandais]

@ BOAC
Unification of approach is a dream.
The State decides, not the operator or the pilot or ATC, or wiki (!)
read the RAC of the country.:p
Respect the rule is easy
Rh

[aterpster]

roulishollandais (http://www.pprune.org/members/360381-roulishollandais):

　

　
Unification of approach is a dream.
The State decides, not the operator or the pilot or ATC, or wiki (!)

read the RAC of the country.
Respect the rule is easy
Rh

Can you explain what you mean?

This subject is about one small aspect of world-wide instrument approach procedures: the portrayal of circle-to-land minimums. That is determined by Jeppesen and Lido, not the member state.

The member state either publishes or withholds CTL for each IAP in its AIP. If authorized, the formating is Jeppesen's (or Lido's) not the state's. Jepp or LIDO has to determine whether the CTL is to be charted as PANS-OPS or TERPs, or in some cases "unkown."

[roulishollandais]

If authorized, the formating is Jeppesen's (or Lido's) not the state's. The State gives authorization
Rh;)

[bubbers44]

Reminds me of one BS type rating check with the FAA in a B737 when he gave me a surging engine with minimum visibility circling minimums. He faulted me for not doing a single engine 15 degree flap circle and I said I couldn't because that would put me in Cat D circling minimums which we didn't have the visibility for. I passed but I think he was confused and didn't know if I was right or not. I wasn't sure technically if I was right but it made sense because of the speed we would have had to circle at.

[AerocatS2A]

Bubbers, I reckon you were right. If you use the higher cat circling speeds then you have to use everything else as well, min altitude and min vis.

[aterpster]

roulishollandais:
The State gives authorization
Rh

It isn't obvious to you that is what "If authorized" meant in the comment of my previous remarks?

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

Reminds me of one BS type rating check with the FAA in a B737 when he gave me a surging engine with minimum visibility circling minimums. He faulted me for not doing a single engine 15 degree flap circle and I said I couldn't because that would put me in Cat D circling minimums which we didn't have the visibility for. I passed but I think he was confused and didn't know if I was right or not. I wasn't sure technically if I was right but it made sense because of the speed we would have had to circle at.

Yawn. Another typical FAA inspector. :)

[Microburst2002]

CTL maoeuvres in TERPS are much tighter than ICAO, in terms of protected area. ICAO have a much wider area.

So speeds and minima should be different

[de facto]

Reminds me of one BS type rating check with the FAA in a B737 when he gave me a surging engine with minimum visibility circling minimums. He faulted me for not doing a single engine 15 degree flap circle and I said I couldn't because that would put me in Cat D circling minimums which we didn't have the visibility for
Your single engine flaps 15 speed was going to be higher than 180kts?
I thought SE circling is to be done with Gear UP, flaps 10 ,speed 170 kts on the 737 and gear DOWN flaps 15,flaps 15 speed on both engines.
In both cases still under CAT C.

[aterpster]

de facto:

Your single engine flaps 15 speed was going to be higher than 180kts?
I thought SE circling is to be done with Gear UP, flaps 10 ,speed 170 kts on the 737 and gear DOWN flaps 15,flaps 15 speed on both engines.
In both cases still under CAT C.

FAA inspector = TERPs procedure. CAT D circling, 141 KIAS, or above.

[de facto]

Understood:)

[aterpster]

OK465:

A bit harsh....and broadbrushish. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Given that now most air carrier inspectors (particularly the POI's) are retired or otherwise ex-airline pilots as a result of the recency of flight experience requirements to qualify for the position....

...this is somewhat like criticizing yourself. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Not exactly. There were a few of us who really went into subjects in depth because (like me) we did technical work for the pilots' union. If you weren't motivated to be up to speed on something like TERPs or ATC procedures, you would soon feel the arrows and slings of the FAA technical staffs (who typically knew their subject area very well).

Then, there were the atypical airline pilots who were involved in training, one friend in particular who ran an outside training center for aspiring airline pilots. He and his staff were very good.

Then, there were a few instructor pilots at our training centers who made the effort to understand stuff beyond what the company expected.

The rest of them; e.g., the typical airline pilot and typical airline instructor knew their airplane well, because the company made sure of that. But, did they know what was in the AIM, other than the occasional training bulletin of importance the company fed everyone? No way.

There was one copy of the AIM in each station's ramp office. Of all the pilots I asked where the company kept copies of the AIM, about 1 out of 20 knew.

And, so it went. The airline pilot who retires and becomes an inspector probably either had too many divorces or never aquired a hobby.

So, typical in one job generally equates to typical in the other job.

It's too bad that air carrier inspector training programs don't have presentations from FAA people who really do understand very technical subject areas. But, those with the expertise are tied up with meetings, both local and distant.

[aterpster]

OK465:

The good FAA job for the retired military or airline guy (or gal) is flight inspection.

Trust me, those folks really do understand the regs and circle to land.

[aterpster]

OK465:

Agreed.

However, I knew a few of those folks who were divorced also. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

No doubt. As good as the job of flight inspection pilot is, nonetheless the typical := airline pilot with a good retirement wouldn't take the job.

[bubbers44]

Some are great, some are a** holes. I have had both but most were great. After about 30 or more check rides with FAA you get them all.