Plane of singer Jenni Rivera missing in Mexico

[Squawk7777]

MEXICO (AP) — A small plane carrying Mexican-American singer Jenni Rivera went missing early Sunday after taking off from the city of Monterrey, authorities in northern Mexico confirmed Sunday.

Jorge Domene, spokesman for the Nuevo Leon state government, told Milenio television on Sunday that the plane left Monterrey about 3:30 a.m local time after a concert there and aviation authorities lost contact with the craft about 10 minutes later. It had been scheduled to arrive in Toluca, which is located outside Mexico City, about an hour later.

Domene said a search for the plane was launched early Sunday, with helicopters from the local civilian protection agency flying over the state. He said seven people including the crew were believed to be aboard the U.S.-registered Learjet 25.

The 43-year-old who was born and raised in Long Beach, California, is known for her interpretations of Mexican regional music known as nortena and banda.

[Airbubba]

The plane is reported found with no survivors:

Plane believed to carry singer found in Mexico - Music News - KTAR.com (http://ktar.com/45/1594029/Plane-of-singer-Jenni-Rivera-missing-in-Mexico-?cmt=1)

Was this 1969 vintage Lear required to have a CVR and FDR?

It's been a long time since I flew Lears...

[con-pilot]

Was this 1969 vintage Lear required to have a CVR and FDR?


If they were operating under FAR 135, I believe that a CVR is mandatory, but not a FDR.

I think. Been a while for me as well.

[sevenstrokeroll]

three thirty in the morning...pilots r only human...

I recall that Frank Sinatra's Mom was lost in a Lear crash out of Palm Springs.

theyhit the mountain...non radar environment

does anyone know the terrain near monterrey?

[westhawk]

Was this 1969 vintage Lear required to have a CVR and FDR?

IIRC, part 91(whatever appendix pertains to large and turbine aircraft) requires two crew turbine powered aircraft with 6 or more pax seats to have a CVR. FDR only required for 10 or more pax seats aircraft. So it seems likely to me that this Lear was probably equipped with a CVR.

If the news stories description the wreck site is anything resembling reality then a CVR with recoverable audio might be a real lucky find.

[HeadingSouth]

The crash site is near Guadalajara about 30 minutes from Toluca, their destination.
The terrain around Monterrey however can be challenging, I've lived there for a few years - high mountains and snakey valleys. They were, however, not in this area when things went wrong.

Edit: Wonder why they flew towards Guadalajara, however, as this is not on the path from MTY to Toluca either. The investigation will show...

[westhawk]

does anyone know the terrain near monterrey?


It's relatively rough around there. The first time I went there was at night in VMC. The next day when we flew out I became a true believer in our policy for following IAPs at unfamiliar airports at night! Ironically we were flying a very popular Mexican band on an extended performance tour at the time.

On a direct course to MMTO, the terrain south of Monterrey is quite mountainous though jets are normally above the highest terrain within just a few short minutes after departure. Obviously something non normal occurred and we won't know what it was for quite some time if ever.

[bubbers44]

FAA registry search shows it is owned by a Fractional corporation in Las Vegas probably leased to fly charter flights. Having done much of the same type of Lear Jet flying with departures after their concert in the wee hours I understand if they find out fatigue had something to do with the crash.

Sinatra's mothers Lear out of Palm Springs was before his Las Vegas show when they turned west into the mountains so must have been in the early evening. My buddy flew Frank in our charter Lear 25 for a long time after that crash. He still has two bottles of Blue Eyes wine Frank gave him for Christmas one year. The FO drank his two bottles, don't know if they are worth anything after all these years.

[bubbers44]

My room mate had his Lear 25 seized in Rio and spent a month in prison until my buddy went down there, same one, and got an attorney to get him and the Lear released. One of the passengers had a satchel full of cocaine in the plane and customs found it.

[sevenstrokeroll]

anything in mexico...drugs?

anything that early in the morning...pilot fatigue/error?

anything that old...mx problems?

but my guess is that the instruments and electrical system may play a role here.

or, if it did get to 20,000 feet, forgeting or having pressurization problems and pilots pass out.


and yes, these are all gueses

[tmusser]

Reuther was President of United Auto Workers. Crashed near Alpena, Michigan, 1970. Alledged altimeter malfunction, but talk of other causes.

[sevenstrokeroll]

there was a very mysterious learjet crash out of KSFO almost 30 years ago...a 24b...huge amount of money found in rental car related to plane...plane went into clouds at 600' and then crashed

no one ever figured it out.

[Bralo20]

There a picture on some newssites which appears to be a temporary airman certificate valid for probably one of the pilots, but it seems to be VFR only and it states that it's not valid for the carriage of persons:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/10/article-2245506-16703B6C000005DC-150_634x379.jpg

[aterpster]

Heading South:

The crash site is near Guadalajara about 30 minutes from Toluca, their destination.

The terrain around Monterrey however can be challenging, I've lived there for a few years - high mountains and snakey valleys. They were, however, not in this area when things went wrong.

The crash site is about 60 miles SSW of MMMY.

[ironbutt57]

they turned west into the mountains

actually it was straight ahead they missed the right turn after departure from rey 30 at PSP

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

Sinatra's mothers Lear out of Palm Springs was before his Las Vegas show when they turned west into the mountains so must have been in the early evening.

It was daytime, but IMC in rain with one of those big systems that occasionally affects KPSP.

In those days KPSP had a non-radar approach control. The clearance was somewhat complex via airways to Goffs VOR; in other words generally to the east. The initial assigned altitude as 9,000, which was plenty safe for the cleared route of flight.

But, the crew were early generation "radar babies." The assumed they were getting vectors so they maintained runway heading (310) until they flew into the side of 11,500' Mt. San Gorgonio. A center supervisor was watching for them to show up on radar to the east of PSP and he realized something was terribly wrong. But, the Lear was still with KPSP non-radar approach control. The supervisor got on the direct line to approach control and shouted, "Tell them to immediately climb to 14,000!"

Alas, it was too late. They impacted 9,000' terrain some 20 miles NW of the airport.

BTW, earlier the KPSP approach controller asked them to report crossing a couple of radials, which would have confirmed they were on the assigned easterly routing. I believe the crew reported those radials even though they couldn't have possibly crossed them on runway heading.

[filejw]

And the date of birth 1934 on that temp certificate ????

[poncho73]

likely 1984....

[bubbers44]

Looks like 1934 even with the folds. A lot of 78 year old guys are still flying jets, just not airliners. I know several in late 60's still doing it. I can't imagine him being alert at that age at that time of night. I couldn't do it so bid day trips before I was 60.

[pattern_is_full]

Crash site is near Iturbide Neuvo Leon - more or less a direct line from Monterey to Toluca. Guadalajara doesn't enter the picture.

iturbide nuevo leon - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=iturbide+nuevo+leon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x867cfd7e0e268f87:0x64ed0d23ea562175,Iturbide,+Nuevo+ León,+Mexico&gl=us)

Rugged terrain, but with only sporadic peaks reaching 10,000 ft/3300 m. That seems pretty low for a Lear after 10 minutes of climb, unless there was some other factor that kept them unusually low (pressurization failure, ATC restriction).

But this report does mention they had only "reached 11,000 feet..."

Latin music star Jenni Rivera believed dead in plane crash - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1210-jenni-rivera-20121211,0,102246.story)

[Airbubba]

The crash site is near Guadalajara about 30 minutes from Toluca, their destination.
The terrain around Monterrey however can be challenging, I've lived there for a few years - high mountains and snakey valleys. They were, however, not in this area when things went wrong.

Edit: Wonder why they flew towards Guadalajara, however, as this is not on the path from MTY to Toluca either. The investigation will show...

The crash site is about 60 miles SSW of MMMY.

FAA registry search shows it is owned by a Fractional corporation in Las Vegas probably leased to fly charter flights. Having done much of the same type of Lear Jet flying with departures after their concert in the wee hours I understand if they find out fatigue had something to do with the crash.

An LA Times article (dated tomorrow :confused:) seems to indicate that the wreckage is near the town of Iturbide which is SSE of MTY and the plane is registered to a 'Las Vegas talent management firm' which may indeed be a fractional ownership for FAR purposes:

The plane, built in 1969 and registered to a Las Vegas talent management firm, reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight, air traffic controllers lost contact with its pilots, according to Mexican authorities. The jet crashed outside Iturbide, a remote city that straddles one of the few roads bisecting Mexico's Sierra de Arteaga national park.

Wreckage was scattered across several football fields' worth of terrain. An investigation into the cause of the crash was underway, and attempts to identify the remains of the victims had begun.


Latin music star Jenni Rivera believed dead in plane crash - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1210-jenni-rivera-20121211,0,6755937,full.story)

I'm guessing a likely initial departure route out of MTY VOR would be out UJ81/V19 perhaps transitioning to UQ101 at URSUR/30 DME. The MEA for V19 in that direction is 13000 ft. Apologies in advance for all this pilot talk.

but my guess is that the instruments and electrical system may play a role here.

or, if it did get to 20,000 feet, forgeting or having pressurization problems and pilots pass out.

It's been decades for me but it seems like this vintage of Lear did not have ground air sensing for the pressurization and the FO had to turn it on with a toggle switch on the bottom of the front panel. If you forgot, an emergency mode would kick in by maybe 12000 feet with noisy hot air. Or, so they tell me...

[slatch]

The crash that killed Walter Reuther and party was in Pellston Mi., about 100 west of Alpena. It crashed just north of East Robinson Road and East of Ely Bridge Road if I remember correctly. I do remember it was a Saturday evening around 9 pm. It was the first airplane crash site I ever saw. Seeing I was 11 years old they did not let me get too close to the site, but it was close enough to figure out it was not a good ending......But like a lot of these crashes they never really figured out why it really happened.....

[aterpster]

Terrain in the area of the crash reaches over 12,000 feet.

MEA of airway is 16,000 or 13,000 or airway slightly to the east.

[ATPMBA]

Quote: reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight

I used to fly Lears, 23/24/25 models. Normal flight path would be to be at FL 41.0 20 minutes after take and 100 mile down range.

[HS125]

Publishing the address of the alledged crew?! A new journalistic low!! :=

[bubbers44]

As far as the captains age look at the 3 in 1934. Now look at the 8 in his height and weight printed from the same printer. He should have been sound asleep by 11:00 PM, not flying at 3::30 AM. Does anybody know what his FO experience and age were? Hate to prejudge a crash investigation but I couldn't have done that flight safely.

[Airbubba]

Quote: reached 11,000 feet. But 10 minutes and 62 miles into the flight

I used to fly Lears, 23/24/25 models. Normal flight path would be to be at FL 41.0 20 minutes after take and 100 mile down range.

One possibility already mentioned is a pressurization problem right after takeoff. I flew Lear 35A's and as I said above, if you forgot to turn on the pressurization, a loud hot emergency stream of bleed air would automatically come on at 9500 feet (from what I now see online).

From an old discussion of the 1999 Payne Stewart Lear crash in another forum:

The Lear in question was an early series LR35, using the 20 series of alternate pressurization. Both crewmembers were inexperienced in type. Whereas in later airplanes, in fact most LR35's, the emergency pressurization is automatic, in the early LR35's and in 20 series Lears, the emergency pressurization required a manual action through the pilot foot warmers...otherwise any air would be diverted externally through the defroster ducts outside the airplane.

Almost certainly the crew failed to perform this action.


The mysterious death of Payne Stewart [Archive] - Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-860784.html)

Did the crew level at 11000 feet with a pressurization problem perhaps, get bogged down looking for the checklist and the foot warmer knob and forget about the rising terrain? At 0300 local you wouldn't expect to be held down by ATC (below the MEA:eek:) for traffic in that area.

[SloppyJoe]

If the names of the pilots are correct in the news article linked to earlier the first data from the FAA airman certificate search is for one of the pilots. The second set of data is the only non student pilot or flight attendant with the name in the article and a record with the FAA. If this is correct I hope someone goes to jail for a very long time for what has happened. The 1st guy, vfr only, not for compensation, must have been PIC.

1st pilot named with no FAA medical

Date of Issue: 10/27/2010
Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT (FOREIGN BASED) Print
Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT (Foreign Based)
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND

Type Ratings:
Z/LR-JET Y/HS-125

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
LR-JET, HS-125 (VFR ONLY).
ISSUED ON BASIS OF AND VALID ONLY WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY MEXICO PILOT LICENSE NUMBER(S) 200112880.
ALL LIMITATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS ON THE MEXICO PILOT LICENSE APPLY.
NOT VALID FOR THE CARRIAGE OF PERSONS OR PROPERTY FOR COMPENSATION OR HIRE OR FOR AGRICULTURAL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS.


2nd pilot named

Date of Issue: 4/27/2010
Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT Print
Ratings:
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE SEA
ROTORCRAFT HELICOPTER AND GYROPLANE
INSTRUMENT HELICOPTER
GLIDER

Type Ratings:
A/CE-500

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

[727gm]

The "Date of Superseded Airman Certificate" looks like 08/25/1981....

[ohnutsiforgot]

If they were flying in Mexico with a valid Mexican license, what difference does it make what his USA privileges on a Temporary Airman Certificate are ?

[Squawk7777]

anything in mexico...drugs?

anything that early in the morning...pilot fatigue/error?

anything that old...mx problems?

but my guess is that the instruments and electrical system may play a role here.

or, if it did get to 20,000 feet, forgeting or having pressurization problems and pilots pass out.


and yes, these are all gueses

I hate to sound like mean spirited person, but I have met quite a few experienced *corporate* pilots from Mexico that lacked basic instrument flying skills. Some of my flight school students that got corporate gigs later in Mex told me unbelievable stories of incompetence. That's when I recommended applying for their airlines from then on.

I wonder if this was a 135 charter (or equivalent). Could get interesting in court, now that we know that the carriage of persons was prohibited. Would be interesting to find out why this restriction/limitation was added.

Not saying that the crew was incompetent, but unfortunately there's that uncertainty.

What a waste of life.

PS Looking at the name of the Fed who signed this license I am pretty sure that he got this through the SAT FSDO.

[900expilot]

Mexico License
If they were flying in Mexico with a valid Mexican license, what difference does it make what his USA privileges on a Temporary Airman Certificate are ?


"N" registered airplane operated by a company in Las Vegas owned by a company in Houston.

[lomapaseo]

We seem to have gotten way ahead of an investigation based on a photo.

The first priority ought to be to list the causal findings before making judgement on a factual relevancy like a single photo.

Does the wreckage confirm a CFIT?

what were the last radio calls?

What was the radar track vs clearence?

Was the profile altitude vs time sufficient to clear the terrain along the intended route?

[flydive1]

Could get interesting in court, now that we know that the carriage of persons was prohibited. Would be interesting to find out why this restriction/limitation was added.

The carriage of person for compensation or hire is not allowed.

This is because it is a commercial certificate based on a foreign licence(validation) in this case a Mexican license.
It is a standard phraseology on validations

[casablanca]

I saw on another forum that someone looked up the faa database and it showed a permanent certificate with no restrictions on the Lear jet rating but I believe the other rating had a VFR only. I would guess this was a FAA 135 flight which would have certain check rides required to operate on the certificate. Im sure it will all come out soon enough.

[pjd_012]

Report Status : Probable Cause
Injury Severity : Non-Fatal
Event Date : 07/01/2005
Location : Amarillo, TX
Make : Learjet
Model : 25
Registration Number : N345MC
Accident Number : DFW05CA174


On July 1, 2005, at 1130 central daylight time (CDT), a twin-turbojet Learjet 25 airplane, N345MC, was substantially damaged when it struck a runway distance marker following a loss of directional control while landing at the Rick Husband Amarillo International Airport (AMA), near Amarillo, Texas. The airline transport rated captain, commercial pilot first officer, and 2 passengers were not injured. The airplane was registered to MCOCO Inc., of Houston, Texas, and operated by Air America Jet Charter, of Houston, Texas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight. The 466-nautical mile cross country flight originated from the William P. Hobby Airport (HOU) near Houston, Texas, at 1010 CDT.

The 7,300-hour captain reported in the Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report (NTSB Form 6120.1/2) that approximately 30 miles from the airport he noticed the left wingtip fuel tank was "heavy." He started to transfer fuel, and then stopped the transfer due to being on approach and preparing to land. After being cleared for a visual approach to Runway 04 (13,502 feet long by 300 feet wide grooved concrete runway), the pilot stated that he was able to trim the airplane for "hands off." During the final approach, the pilot noted that the airplane "would not bank to the right without almost full right aileron." The airplane "started raising right wing as full aileron was applied, even with the first officer assisting." At this point, the pilot added that the right wing stopped coming up, but would not go level.

The captain further reported that he elected to land rather than add full power and go-around, instead of risking a potential roll situation. The captain added that "alignment to runway was off due to right wing." Subsequently, the airplane exited the left side of the runway striking a runway distance marker.

The first officer reported to an Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector that the landing fuel load was as follows:

Left Wingtip Tank: 600 pounds
Left Wing Tank: 1,100 - 1,300 pounds
Fuselage Tank: 400 - 500 pounds
Right Wing Tank: 1,000 - 1,200 pounds
Right Wing Tip Tank: 300 - 400 pounds

Maintenance personnel at a repair facility in San Antonio, Texas, where the airplane was ferried for maintenance, stated that they were not able to find any discrepancies in the fuel transfer system.

At 1141, the automated surface observation system at AMA reported wind from 130 degrees at 17 knots, visibility 10 statute miles, few clouds at 7,000 feet, scattered clouds at 12,000 feet, temperature 28 degrees Celsius, dew point 13 degrees Celsius, and an altimeter setting of 30.09 inches of Mercury. The runway was reported as dry during the time of the mishap.

[sevenstrokeroll]

fuel imbalance...good idea...ooops, take off while crossfeeding...both engines from left tank...we all know highest fuel consumption is during takeoff and climb...then the thing feels out of trim (roll) and you don't pay attention and bam

I haven't flown the lear...but one plane I flew didn't have crossfeed, it had crossflow instead...what is the situation on the lear?

[Mike-Bracknell]

A little googling brings up this tweet:

"El piloto del Lear Jet 25, Miguel Pérez Soto (70 años) más de 20 mil horas de vuelo. El avión (1969) muy viejo. Se desplomó en caída libre"

which Google Translate gives as:

"The pilot of the Lear Jet 25, Miguel Perez Soto (70 years) more than 20,000 hours of flight. The plane (1969) very old. He collapsed in free fall"

I don't think you can attribute the second part to fact, but somebody seems quite clued up about the pilot from the first part.

EDIT: FFS, the use of the spellchecker function in this forum to change T W E E T to PPRuNe is extremely childish (especially when it's not uniform!)

[robbreid]

Well here is a plot complication;

Company in Jenni Rivera crash has ties to alleged Gaddafi escape plot | World | News | National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/10/company-in-plane-crash-that-killed-mexican-superstar-jenni-rivera-has-ties-to-alleged-gaddafi-escape-plot/)

As for accident site, sounds like approx 9000 foot level with wreckage strewn in a forward motion for over 1000 feet.

Photo - crash site (http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab20/bizjets101/N345MC2.jpg)

[sevenstrokeroll]

so, I take freefall to be an aerodynamic stall

there were two pilots, so let's not get too wacked out about age

but there is something about night flying in nice wx conditions...you must discipline yourself to use the instruments...night, mountains...very easy to fall for an optical illusion and put the nose on the top of the mountain, thinking its the horizon...horizon is at the base of mountains!

[Machaca]

El Universo reports (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/889034.html):


Aircraft was 61.8 miles from MMMY when it plunged from 35,000 to 9,000 feet.

Wreckage within a radius of 300 meters.



http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/JenniScene1.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/JenniScene2.jpg

[westhawk]

To summarize what's been reported so far:

A 1969 Lear 25 took off from MMMY for MMTO and went in about 60NM later. Descriptions of the crash site include an extensive debris field. ATC apparently was last in contact with the flight when it was at 11,000'. Elevation of crash site not specified as far as I know.

Various paper documents were recovered from the scene including a drivers license belonging to a celebrity passenger and a temporary airman certificate belonging to a person presumed to be the PIC.

Personal opinion regarding the matter of pilot privileges:

Whether or not the privileges of this certificate entitled the holder to act as the PIC of this flight appears to depend upon whether or not the pilot was conducting a private flight in connection with his business or whether he was being compensated as a pilot. As for matters of currency and proficiency, I wouldn't hazard a guess... It'll all become apparent in due course

Edited in light of new info link from Machaca:

Descent from FL350 at least makes more sense than being at 11,000' 60 NM after departure! That's still a pretty snappy climb though, even for a Lear.

[bubbers44]

So far no real info, just guesses.

[lomapaseo]

So far no real info, just guesses.

Not quite that barren :)

Machaca post above bares a close look for facts (real info). What follows from our keyboards after that may be considered guesses.

If it really did plunge from 35000 ft that would be quite significant !

I wouldn't call that CFIT

[HeadingSouth]

... for mentioning Iturbide near Guadalajara as I only knew this Iturbide... not the one near Monterrey.
Why was I looking so far when the place was that close ? :-(

[The Ancient Geek]

If, indeed, the aircraft had reached cruising altitude it is possible that a pressurisation failure could have let to a rapid descent to below 10000 feet and that the crew were not fully aware of the terain hazard.

This would be evident from CVR recordings if available.
As always, this is pure speculation and there is seldom a single cause for an accident, there is almost always a chain of contributing factors.

[robbreid]

FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N345MC/history/20120831/1515Z/KHOU/MMTO/tracklog) Just looking at a flight from August, shows aircraft filed for 410 and 10 minutes into the flight was at flight level 240 - fsmex poster state aircraft was at flight level 270 when it 'fell' from the sky to 8300 feet in seconds and was off the radar in less than 14 seconds. (unconfirmed)

As for Starwood Management, they have an active fleet of at least; 2 Beechjet 400A, 2 G2's, 2 G3's, 5 Hawkers (600-700-800), and a Phenom 100.

Retired of just not flying, 1 G2, 1 G3, 2 Hawkers, 1 Westwind 1124, 1 Lear 23, 1 Falcon 20.

[aterpster]

Another report about reaching FL 350, followed by a very rapid descent:

Jenni Rivera: Plane or Pilot to Blame for Crash? | Fox News Latino (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/12/10/jenni-rivera-plane-or-pilot-to-blame-for-crash/#ixzz2EhaAKAhO)

[aterpster]

sevenstrokeroll:

but there is something about night flying in nice wx conditions...you must discipline yourself to use the instruments...night, mountains...very easy to fall for an optical illusion and put the nose on the top of the mountain, thinking its the horizon...horizon is at the base of mountains!

Yep. AAL965 could see the lights of Cali from 40 or 50 miles out before they began what was essentially an uncontrolled rapid descent.

The part of Mexico where the lear crashed is similar terrain to that AAL965 impacted and that area of Mexico would have been black, black, black at the time of the crash.

[bubbers44]

AA965 was CFIT. There was no moon that night but visibility was fine. Their descent was controlled, they just decided to land to the south to save a few minutes and when they selected the R designater to start the approach they got the R for Bogota instead and turned east into the mountains. They couldn't see the terrain and crashed. For some reason neither pilot caught the mistake or turn.

[Airbubba]

FlightAware Just looking at a flight from August, shows aircraft filed for 410 and 10 minutes into the flight was at flight level 240 - fsmex poster state aircraft was at flight level 270 when it 'fell' from the sky to 8300 feet in seconds and was off the radar in less than 14 seconds. (unconfirmed)


Rapid D from FL270 is not that dramatic if you have working O2 masks from an inadvertant demo done by a B-727 FE while I was deadheading in the back years ago. We were over Florida, got the fog in the cabin and started the emergency descent. After a long couple of minutes, pressurization was restored and we pressed on to a landing, we were near top of descent when the incident occured. Of course, at 0330 with a tired crew in mountainous terrain, the outcome might not have been as favorable.

Any report of a classic Lear involved in a possible upset at altitude brings back memories of the infamous 'go fast' switch that was installed illegally in many planes.

Here's a remembrance from an AVweb columnist:

I was luckier than some of my contemporaries who went to work for companies that had either no scruples whatsoever, or no understanding of high speed aerodynamics combined with high altitude meteorology. Those operators were the ones who put "go fast switches" under the panel of their Learjets. The switch disabled both the overspeed warning and stick puller. The 20-series Learjets have so much power they can exceed redline airspeed in cruise flight. Doing so is an exceedingly serious affair because at some speed past redline it induces what is known as "Mach tuck". When that happens the airplane begins to pitch down, eventually uncontrollably until the airplane violently comes apart. There is a very limited time for a well trained crew to take precisely the correct action to save the airplane and themselves. While I was flying as copilot there were some inflight breakups of Learjets, notably freighters. It was later discovered that go fast switches were to blame in at least some of those tragedies.

The Pilot's Lounge #134: Gear Up, Good Night — Flying Freight in the Not-So-Good Old Days (http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/PilotsLounge_134_GearUpGoodNight_FlyingFreight_200633-1.html)

If the plane really did fall out of the sky at FL270 that would still be below the region where Vmo (306 kts) would catch up with Mmo (.82). It is alleged that the Lear 23 originally had a Vmo of 350 knots but when the Model 24 was produced it was over 12,500 lbs. and became a FAR 25 aircraft. Among other things, this meant that the windshield had to be tested with the unlucky four pound chicken shot out of a compressed air cannon.

Apparently 306 knots was the fastest chicken that didn't break the windshield so that became certificated Vmo. Back in the cowboy days of Lear flying on some Lears the 'go fast' switch would raise the barber pole back to 350 knots since in the U.S. (and Mexico for that matter) you would be 250 or below until you climbed above 10000 and there weren't many four pound chickens above that altitude.

At least some Lear mishaps were thought to be caused by a redline 350 knot climb causing an inadvertant mach overspeed at some point and resultant loss of control.

350 knots at FL270 on a standard day is about mach .86 I calculate.

Hopefully the Lear 'go fast' switch is just a bad memory but it raises a possible classic Lear mishap scenario. I still have colleagues who absolutely love to climb a jet at barber pole speed, even with hills around.

Another report about reaching FL 350, followed by a very rapid descent:

I wonder if they really made it to FL350 in 62 miles or if that was the filed altitude? As in the AA Cali crash, the translation sometimes helps propagate reporting errors among journalists not familiar with aviation.

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

AA965 was CFIT. There was no moon that night but visibility was fine. Their descent was controlled, they just decided to land to the south to save a few minutes and when they selected the R designater to start the approach they got the R for Bogota instead and turned east into the mountains. They couldn't see the terrain and crashed. For some reason neither pilot caught the mistake or turn.

As I said, AA965 made an essentially uncontrolled descent. I suppose I could have worded it better. Any time someone on an IFR flight plan grossly departs procedurally airspace while descending to the max, speed boards and all, is in what I considered an uncontrolled descent.

Granted, the AA965 resumed control of sorts just before impact.

In the instant case it appears the Lear crashed pretty much on the flight plan route. Whether the descent was initiated by the crew is still unknown to us at this time.

[Lonewolf_50]

Some interesting things about the company running this aircraft. (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/entertainment&id=8914105)
CAVEAT: this is a media report, and as such a grain of salt may be needed.


Starwood is subject of a federal lawsuit in Nevada. QBE Insurance Corp. alleges that a Starwood aircraft was ordered seized by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration when it landed in McAllen, Texas, from Mexico on Sept. 12.
The New York-based insurer sued in October to rescind coverage for the Hawker 700 jet.
Starwood, in a court filing, acknowledged that the DEA was involved in the seizure of the aircraft in McAllen.

Nevada secretary of state records list only one Starwood officer - Norma Gonzalez - but QBE alleges that the company is owned and managed by Ed Nunez, who, according to the lawsuit, is also known as Christian Esquino and had a long criminal history.

Starwood rejected the insurer's description of Nunez's role at the company.

According to QBE's lawsuit, Esquino pleaded guilty in federal court in Orlando, Fla., in 1993 to conspiracy to possess and distribute cocaine.

The Florida complaint alleges that Esquino and 12 others participated in a scheme to bring large amounts of cocaine and marijuana to the U.S. and bribe a Bahaman official.

QBE said Esquino also served two years in prison after pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit fraud involving an aircraft in Southern California in 2004. QBE said Esquino's attorney stated in court back then that his client had been under investigation by the DEA for more than a year.

What's this to do with the crash, you may wonder?
from robbreid's link up there:

... a company under scrutiny over its alleged links to a businessman convicted of falsifying aircraft maintenance records and an alleged plot to smuggle Saadi Gaddafi out of Libya. ... Starwood Management, a Las Vegas company that has been battling the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency in court over the seizure of one of its planes. ...

As it is alleged, there may be more noise there than not.

I realize I may be getting ahead of things, but the background on the company leaves me a little unsettled regarding how professional their operation was. A company's culture will influence a whole host of decisions, in safety, operations, maintenance ... etcetera.

[surplus1]

Pure speculation:

Possible explosive decompression @ FL350 .... followed by intentional emergency descent ..... without quick-donning O2 mask or no oxygen flow. Result - partial lack of conciousness (or temp complete loss) and spatial disorientation leading to unintentional descent to below level of surrounding terrain. Probable cause: mechnical failure combined with pilot error.

There's not much fuselage volume in a Lear Jet. If it blows and one of you don't get the mask on instantly .... things can get more than interesting very quickly. It's my guess that in most cases private/corporate pilots (at least one of them) don't actually wear the mask at high altitude.

Thought: Most celebrities know nothing about flying. When they charter a jet, especially an older/cheap one, they don't necessarily get what they expect.

[bubbers44]

I wouldn't put the blame on the 1969 Lear 25 as the cause. It probably had nothing to do with the crash. All we know now is we have 1,000 ft of Lear Jet and people parts spread over the crash site. Nothing else. We may never know what caused the crash. When I was flying them there were no voice recorders or FDR's to record flight conditions.

[lomapaseo]

All we know now is we have 1,000 ft of Lear Jet and people parts spread over the crash site. Nothing else. We may never know what caused the crash

There is certainly a lot that can be done with what's available.

[bubbers44]

What????? Wreckage just tells you where it hit the mountain and what direction. Nothing else.

[poorjohn]

Forgive OT and SLF question (or not, as mods whim): what little I know tells me modern transports need such fine management in high-altitude cruise that many airlines insist that the electronics must be in charge under normal circumstances. In particular, a handful of KPH separate stall and overspeed.

Why is it than an antique bizjet - surely without all the sophistication of modern electronics - seems to (normally) survive that regime without heroics? All in the wing design?

[sevenstrokeroll]

I had the privilege of meeting a very well known celebrity...so well known at one time any one of you would have waited up to see her on dave letterman/

due to age and a bad illness she is less well known now. But she confided in me that she had been traveling in chartered business jets and thought that they were not well maintained...and she insisted on flying on regular well known airlines.

so it does happen...poorly maintained planes...but

one thing does strike me funny...according to one poster, the climb seemed well expedited...could they have climbed like HECK intentionally, and been near the stall at the end of the climb, attempting to ZOOM the last couple of thousand feet? OR could a faulty ASI had the guys climbing very well, until BOOM.


I agree now it doesn't seem a CFIT...with wreckage so spread out...but who knows?

[NWstu]

From a Mexican transportation official:

The plane carrying Mexican-American music superstar Jenni Rivera plunged almost vertically from more than 28,000 feet and hit the ground in a nose-dive at a speed that may have exceeded 600 miles per hour, Mexico's top transportation official said Tuesday.

Could coffin corner have reared its ugly head or is Lear/coffin corner propensity an old wives' tale?

Source (http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-riveras-plane-hit-terrible-impact-001723685.html)

[bubbers44]

The pilots that flew these aircraft didn't need an autopilot. They were more responsive in control movement but the pilot could do it even at high altitude. Things are changing today so sometimes new pilots need the automation to do their job. I wish we could convince new pilots that automation is to help you, not fly it because you can't.

[bubbers44]

SSR, my roomate and I picked up an elderly lady in South Carolina to participate in a Hollywood show with a Lear 23. Her first question was I was told these charter flights are dangerous and I assured her it wasn't with us flying. Look how many singers have been killed flying to their next concert. I can see why she asked the question.

[westhawk]

If a CVR with recoverable audio is found, quite a few things might be learned. Even if not, several potential causes might be ruled out or in by laboratory examination of various bits found in the debris field.

But so far there is a distinct lack reliable information for we unpaid internet accident investigators to work from. Just a few snippets of a general nature from our good friends in the press.

I do find the matter of the background of the registered owners of the Lear and the crew qualifications interesting though. Some of it might well come into play as a part of why this happened. I read somewhere in all these news stories that the Mexican investigators expect to produce a preliminary report within approximately 10 days time. Perhaps a few things might be made clearer at that time...

[Airbubba]

I wonder if they really made it to FL350 in 62 miles or if that was the filed altitude? As in the AA Cali crash, the translation sometimes helps propagate reporting errors among journalists not familiar with aviation.

From a Mexican transportation official:

The plane carrying Mexican-American music superstar Jenni Rivera plunged almost vertically from more than 28,000 feet and hit the ground in a nose-dive at a speed that may have exceeded 600 miles per hour, Mexico's top transportation official said Tuesday.

The article cited above also has this quote:

Ruiz did not offer any explanation of what may have caused the plane to plummet, saying only that "The plane fell from an altitude of 28,000 feet ... It may have hit a speed higher than 1,000 kph (621 mph)."


Somehow the 'an altitude of 28,000 feet' in Mr. Ruiz's sound bite changed to 'more than 28,000 feet' in the 'lede' of the AP article. Either way, it is different from the FL 350 in earlier reports.

Could coffin corner have reared its ugly head or is Lear/coffin corner propensity an old wives' tale?

If the altitude was anywhere near 28,000 I don't believe that coffin corner would be a player in a Lear since the margin between stall and Vmo/Mmo is still generous.

But, if you pulled back the power way back to slow down on level off and forgot to put it back on (as in the BUF commuter crash in 2009) you could quickly slow to a stall. Also, if you let the plane overspeed and didn't get a warning (or it was inhibited as I discussed in a previous post), you could get mach tuck and enter a dive that would ruin your whole day.

The Lear is a small plane with high wing loading and excess power so it really bears close watching in my experience years ago. It made the Airbus I flew next seem stable.

The actual high and low speed characteristics on these early Lears also varied depending on which wing was installed, there were many retrofits offered. Century III, Softflite, Mark II come to mind, not sure if this Lear 25 was retrofited at some point but the interior did look pretty modern in the posted Instagram shots before the fatal flight.

[MountainBear]

What????? Wreckage just tells you where it hit the mountain and what direction. Nothing else.

Look, if you don't know anything about accident investigations it is better just to keep silent than post such rubbish. One can tell a great deal more than that from a crash site. Without a CVR or FDR it might be more difficult to point to a direct cause but if nothing else the accident scene should be able to eliminate possibilities.

In any event, the press is reporting that they were in last contact with tower at 11K. What was said has the potential to be rather enlightening, methinks.

[Gameface]

The First Officer was just 20 yrs old, i dont think he had the experience, and its well known at least in Mexico, that in corporate aviation young first officers usually just carry the bags, and raise the gear, so given the need, a lot of them wouldnt be able to fly and land their plane


and, theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane

[diego727]

FO was 20 years old, fresh out of school, didn't have a type rating which was necessary in this case (which is common practice in Mexico) and I'm told he also flew the Westwind and Gulfstream for the same company, again, no type ratings.

Plane operated under Part 91 but doing charters for hire.

Captain had the type rating but had a VFR restriction (no night VFR in Mexico) and wasn't allowed to carry passengers for compensation, was 78 years old which, correct me if I'm wrong, is fine for Part 91 but this was more like a 135 type of flight.

Seems like your typical executive charter operation in Mexico ;)

[Lonewolf_50]

diego727, thanks for that.

From your post, I infer that legally, based on what is currently knowable, the pilot in command was not properly qulaified to conduct the flight, but would have been once the sun came up.

"Night VFR in Mexico"

If I understand what you are saying correctly, at night time you are required to be operating under an IFR flight plan in Mexico.

Do I have that right?

[diego727]

That is correct, all night flights in Mexico are to be conducted as IFR, and the captain had a "VFR only" restriction on his license.

There is a vast number of November registered planes operating in Mexico in similar conditions, a couple of weeks ago the crew of an N-registered Hawker jet owned by a mexican charter company had a ramp check done by an inspector in Houston and they found they were operating under a Part 91 certificate but renting out their planes to the public, copilot had no type rating, only FAA private pilot licenses, and so on...

Another accident that comes to mind is the Lear 45 XC-VMC crash in Mexico City on which Secretary of the Interior Juan Camilo Mourino lost his life, both pilots had a faux type rating on their licenses...

[con-pilot]

It would interesting to know just which auto-pilot was installed in that aircraft. I few Lear 24s (oval cabin windows) back in the mid 70s that had the Lear auto-pilot installed, which at that time was the only auto-pilot that was available for the Lear 24, not sure about the 25 series.

My reason for inquiring is, back then the only time we used the Lear auto-pilot was at cruise. All climbs and descents/approaches were hand flown due to the mistrust of the Lear brand auto-pilot.

As for the speed used in climb, above 10,000 feet we would climb on the barber pole. About every Lear 24/25 pilot I met back then did the same. We did not have the illegal 'Mach' cut out switch in our 24s.

As far as the 'coffin' corner is concerned, at FL280, I believe that would not be an issue.

Hopefully the CVR will be able to shed some light on this accident, if it was working.

[pattern_is_full]

All kinds of information can be gleaned from even wreckage as devastating as this.

You don't need intact human remains to reveal telltale signs of: hypoxia, cardiac infarction, stroke, smoke inhalation. Small pieces of tissue can retain such indications.

A chemical explosion will likely leave combustion residues not found with a simple "physical" decompression. And any kind of explosive disassembly of part or all of the airframe can leave distortions different from simple impact.

Distortion vs. breakage of the tungsten filaments in indicator/warning lights can determine if they were on (hot and malleable) or off (cold and brittle) at the time of impact. Instrument dials may be "frozen" with the readings at the time of failure.

If you add up the parts and find anything missing, you can backtrack along the flight route and see if it departed the airframe prior to, or during descent.

Not that this investigation will be as easy as some, but experienced investigators know how to find the most obscure evidence.

[Airbubba]

It would interesting to know just which auto-pilot was installed in that aircraft. I few Lear 24s (oval cabin windows) back in the mid 70s that had the Lear auto-pilot installed, which at that time was the only auto-pilot that was available for the Lear 24, not sure about the 25 series.

I don't believe the old analog Lear autopilot was ever able to receive RVSM certification so the aircraft would presumably have an updated avionics package, including a new autopilot, to legally fly above FL 290 in the U.S. or Mexico.

Of course, in light what has been revealed here so far about Mexican bizjet operations, maybe the RVSM certification for this aircraft was 'undocumented'.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I haven't figured much out...translations!!!!! But..one could say the plane fell or dived a total of 28,000 feet...starting at 35,000feet MSL and hitting the ground about 6,000' or 7000' MSL...total change 28,000 and starting at FL350.

I have an idea what happened...the 70 year old captain let the 20 year old copilot fly...and he wasn't well qualified...IT IS HARD to hand fly anything at altitude and it is EXTRA hard if you have not done it before...also,w ith lots of PAX the plane would have a CG closer to the rear and the plane is LESS stable than if nose heavy .

AT one time all you needed to be a copilot was a commercial,multi with NO type rating...just a few landings.


anyway, I can see the copilot bobbling around and causing a pilot induced loss of control.

I remember the first time I flew a Sabreliner (great plane)...autopilot INOP, We were at MAX altitude (FL 450_) and it was VERY demanding...but I settled down after a few minutes...it was the most important flying I ever did...it gave me the confidence to hand fly any transport at any approved altitude...and the discipline to move the controls only a tiny bit. It also gave me the wisdom in later years, when operating an airliner with out an operational autopilot, to select a lower cruising altitude to enhance stability.

SPEAKING of Sabreliners, the FIRST flight of the F86 Sabre Jet Fighter was 65 years ago...she is now able to receive Social Security!

oh...and everything bubbers wrote is right.

[lomapaseo]

sevenstrokeroll

oh...and everything bubbers wrote is right.

Your're kidding , right ?

[con-pilot]

I don't believe the old analog Lear autopilot was ever able to receive RVSM certification so the aircraft would presumably have an updated avionics package, including a new autopilot, to legally fly above FL 290 in the U.S. or Mexico.


Oh, hell, didn't think about that, quite right you are.

Of course, in light what has been revealed here so far about Mexican bizjet operations, maybe the RVSM certification for this aircraft was 'undocumented'.

Thus my comment about a working CVR. This whole deal seems to be a bit shaky. Sad out come regardless.

[bubbers44]

LP I don't see anything I posted wrong. Would you please tell me what is. Is it the thousand feet of trashed airplane and people parts that are going to tell the story? Unless the Lear had black boxes in it that is all you have and I don't think they did. If that is the case they can only calculate descent rate and speed when it it hit the mountain. Measure the hole it hit and how far it skidded. End of investigation.

[20driver]

Business jet charters seem to have a lot of "interesting" paper work issues in the US as well. Payne Stewart was an obvious one but it seems a lot of the crashes turn up large amounts of dubious practices.

[Squawk7777]

Could those classic Lear Jet drivers shed some light if engine lip icing might have been a factor?

[lomapaseo]

bubbers44

LP I don't see anything I posted wrong

ignorance of mechanical forensics doesn't make you right either.

Best not to tell the experts that something can't be done when they do it everyday.

[Machinbird]

Unless the Lear had black boxes in it that is all you have and I don't think they did. If that is the case they can only calculate descent rate and speed when it it hit the mountain. Measure the hole it hit and how far it skidded. End of investigation.
Bubbers, the wreckage, even if badly fragmented, can tell you a lot. I was part of the team that recovered the wreckage of an aircraft that flew into the water 50 degrees nose down at 550 knots.
From the damage to the compressor blades and inlet guide vane positions we could evaluate power setting. From the way the Mach dial draped over the IAS dial, we could validate airspeed and Mach number. From the way the all attitude indicator draped over the rest of the instrument internals, we could evaluate attitude and heading at impact. Since we understood the context of the accident, this was sufficient information to write the accident report.

There is generally a lot more information that can be obtained if you have a complete set of wreckage. Reading the wreckage gives you the aircraft final configuration at the instant of impact. More violent impacts probably are better at preserving the final configuration since when everything distorts so quickly, it doesn't have time to move from crash forces before it is marked by items in its vicinity. The worst situation though is probably when components are thoroughly shattered down to the component part level.

You have to take this configuration data and figure out what it means. This particular accident will have a lot of data available to the trained eye. :sad:

[bubbers44]

Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line airspeed. I took over even though I had to lean sideways because initially I didn't believe the instruments until I saw all three attitude indicators said the same thing. He had a commercial pilots license and considerable time and it was day time. He was also 40 years old vs 20 in this case.

I do not think there is any way to tell if the captain was sleeping during this event but the 20 year old had no experience at all compared to my friend who lost control of our Lear.

Mexico cuts a lot of corners in how everything is done. We can assume initially that the FO was not legal to be a crewmember of a Lear for commercial operation. That part of the investigation they can prove. Unlikely anything else.

[601]

Would not be the first time a pilot of that age suffered a fatal medical event.

[stuckgear]

theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane

the old 'black market charter' chestnut.

:hmm:

[stuckgear]

Had an experience back in the 70's on a short flight to Las Vegas flying an empty Lear 23 letting a friend fly. Descending from FL410 I was balancing the fuel in the clouds. When I looked at the instruments I saw a 45 degree bank increasing as we were approaching red line

never flown a 20 series lear, but from pilots i know that have, sometimes in very demanding operations, i understand that the aircraft can get away from you very quickly. would that be correct ?

[doubleu-anker]

Correct.

Before any crew member is let loose in a Lear, (or any other a/c for that matter), they should be able to demonstrate hand flying skills in the cruise at approved high altitudes. Best basic IF training you can get, hand flying an a/c at altitude..

There are a lot of young pilots coming through who are unable to demonstrate this skill, with any degree of competence. Not their fault, as it is discouraged because of SOP's, RVSM etc.

[Island-Flyer]

and, theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane

Of course, because a charter from one Mexican city to another with Mexican citizens as passengers in a US registered aircraft operated by a US air carrier would be illegal.

Of course the pilot with the restriction on his temporary certificate doesn't help either.

[robbreid]

Still more interesting background info on the owner of the Lear (note they own both N and XA registered bizjets)

Jenni Rivera dead, plane crash update: Owner of plane in crash linked to troubled businessman (http://www.wptv.com/dpp/entertainment/jenni-rivera-dead-plane-crash-update-owner-of-plane-in-crash-linked-to-troubled-businessman)

[Lonewolf_50]

theyre saying this wasnt a chartered flight, that it was a demo flight they were trying to sell the plane to the singer, according to the compnay that owned the plane

They assert that this is a demo flight, at 3:30 AM. Sure it was.

Is it just me, or is someone straining credulity? :hmm:

[sevenstrokeroll]

Let me recap.

43 year old plane
70plus year old pilot
20 year old copilot
questionable airmen certificates
3:30 in the morning
Attempts to make this flight look like a DEMO flight instead of a charter for hire flight///possibly to avoid paperwork or regulation problems.

all of this prior to takeoff!

then the takeoff and climb to altitude followed in some 10 total minutes of flight by a ''nosedive'' into mountainous terrain.

6 or 7 passengers plus luggage, possibly musical instruments.
Possible, repeat, POSSIBLE routine musician hijinx going on, including internet posting of picture while flying.

BUT wasn't the interior looking nice after an update!


wWhat I have learned:

It is hard to fly airplanes well. Losing control at night or on instruments is possible without great attention to instruments and the task at hand.

Inexperience, especially in ''hand flying'' on instruments in airplanes that are ''demanding'' can be easily dealt with BY INSTRUCTION, and ExPERIENCE but is not done because of...wait for it....


MONEY.

I was fortunate in having to ''hand fly'' some demanding airplanes at altitude in all wx and time of day early in my career.

Later in my career, more foregiving planes were still demanding enough that I forced myself to ''hand fly'' as much as possible to maintain proficiency.

FLYINg is done largely with the mind...constantly doing many things (we call it multitasking now) but ''aviating'' still has to be first and navigating second...but a darn important second!

[ManaAdaSystem]

78 years old??????

The only thing he should have been allowed to handle was his adult diapers, not an aircraft!
How many more people will be killed by old f@rts refusing to step down?
Above 60 is bad enough, but 78??

[stuckgear]

so your making a judgement on the crash circumstances being directly attributable to the pilot's age ?

nothing else ?

the co-pilot was in his 20's so how does that square with your analysis ?

oh sorry... you're just trolling aren't you.

[ManaAdaSystem]

so your making a judgement on the crash circumstances being directly attributable to the pilot's age ?

nothing else ?

the co-pilot was in his 20's so how does that square with your analysis ?

oh sorry... you're just trolling aren't you.

Yes, I do. He clearly was unable to read the restrictions on his own license, that is a good indication.
He was in command so he should also be able to check his copilots ratings and know if they could or could not take passengers on the flight.
Even if he did not directly mishandle the aircraft into an accident, he certainly lined up all the cheese holes before taking off.
78! :mad:

[stuckgear]

that is relating to adherence to regulatory requirements, not age.

[ManaAdaSystem]

He clearly was unable to read the restrictions on his own license, that is a good indication

I know PPRUNE is flooded with old f@rts, but this is getting ridiculous. And dangerous.

[paully]

The only place for a 78 year old on an aeroplane is down the back....end of

[Machinbird]

The only place for a 78 year old on an aeroplane is down the back....end of
An 'Old Fart' Sends greetings.
You do realize that those are fighting words? You want to meet out in the restricted area at FL 250? :E

You should not throw all the senior citizens in the same little box. Some of us know our age induced limitations and how to accommodate them properly. And some of us are quite capable.:}

[ManaAdaSystem]

Some of us know our age induced limitations and how to accommodate them properly. And some of us are quite capable

So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls of a heavy jet when it happened.
Some never know when to quit. The problem is, you can get people killed because of this.
Why not buy a single engine prop and just kill yourself?

[flydive1]

Well, the temporary certificate(validation based on a foreign license) is dated 2010, so is well elapsed. Did he obtain an IFR validation or a full certifacate at a later time? Why was he still carrying the elapsed one? Do not know.

Basing all the speculations on one picture might not be correct.

[Lonewolf_50]

ManaAdaSystem

Your advocating suicide among pilots is out of place on a professional aviator's forum. :p

May I suggest you troll elsewhere?

Regarding the pilot, at age 70+ something ... if he had passed his most recent physical, who are you to dictate that he should or should not fly?

If he hadn't, that's another story.
If his cert is no up to date, that's another story.
If he isn't qualified to carry pax for pay, that's another story.

EDIT:

@ Flydive: what if he had an up to date cert, but he left it in his jacket at home or he had put the wrong one in his wallet. With old folks, sometimes the memory goes adrift. :E

*awaits the thrashing from the geriatric brigade*

[lomapaseo]

So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls

Completely out of place extension and correlation in a professional web site

[ManaAdaSystem]

Your advocating suicide among pilots is out of place on a professional aviator's forum.

Sorry, I did not mean to. What I was trying to say was: I you get in an small aircraft all alone and you suffer from anything major, you will most likely kill just yourself.

[ManaAdaSystem]

So said 411A (PBUH) before he went out with a big bang. Luckily he was not at the controls

Completely out of place extension and correlation in a professional web site

Why? He told us all he was fit as a fiddle, passed all his medicals, and we should all bugger off because old farts rule the aviation world.
He died on the job and it was pure luck it didn't happen when he was at the controls of his L-1011 during a bad weather approach.
And now we have an aircraft go down with a 78 year old captain in command.

[stuckgear]

my wife had a patient yesterday that was 23 who has three MI's (that's heart attack) my wife, by the way, mid-20's...

[con-pilot]

Well I see one more time we have some one here that has solved the cause of the accident before the wreckage has stopped smoldering.

The pilot was too old, tell the investigators to pack up and go home. :hmm:

[bubbers44]

Machinbird: I know a lot of pilots our age that are fine pilots. At some point you notice your driving skills and flying skills gradually diminish. Some at 50, some at 90.

We have all babysat a 55 year old captain to keep him out of trouble and I have had retirement flights with captains turning 60 that were the ace of the base. Age always gets you but not everybody at the same age.

I was told by a couple they could get me into their outfits flying but declined because I didn't need the money and felt fortunate to have 23,000 hrs and no incidents. Why push it? The late night stuff gets you first. We will see how this investigation progresses. Kind of agree that this was no demo flight at 3:30 in the morning. A lot of that was going on in the 70's when I was flying Lears into Mexico.

[aterpster]

I'm 76 and would not want to ride in the cabin of an old airplane with an old captain.

I felt the age 60 retirement rule (which was still in effect when I elected to retire at 54) was medically a good, conservative rule.

No matter what anyone says as a general rule the chances of a heart attack or stroke increases materially beyond age 70 or so.

Also, someone mentioned that the gentleman should have been home asleep. I strongly agree with that based on my personal experience.

I have also found it best not to drive at night other than on a short, local trip. As you get older the eyes have far more difficulty at night even though vision is good during the day.

Just one OF's considered opinion.

[ManaAdaSystem]

A lot of that was going on in the 70's when I was flying Lears into Mexico.

So this has been going on for 30-40 years, and nobody has raised a finger to stop it? Is it because those who know about it are also the ones flying the aircraft? Is this business the end of the road for old pilots who can't find a job elsewhere?

[bubbers44]

MAS, no our company didn't want to bother with the paperwork and expense of doing what we had a certificate to do so treated is an FAR part 91 private flight. It worked but only because the Mexicans didn't seem to care if you slipped them a 20.

[aterpster]

bubbers:

It worked but only because the Mexicans didn't seem to care if you slipped them a 20.

Bribes and corruption are in the invisible ink portion of Mexico's constituion.

[bubbers44]

You got that right and still is.

[aterpster]

Magenta "X" indicates approximately crash site location:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/LearImpactArea_zpsf84684e8.jpg

[DozyWannabe]

Bubbers, the wreckage, even if badly fragmented, can tell you a lot.

+1 (along with the rest of your post)

Aviation accident investigation agencies don't have specialists in (among other things) physics, metallurgy and electronics on the payroll simply to make headcount!

The famous investigation into the DH.106 Comet was done with no flight recorder evidence, and even the famous water tank test eventually served only to confirm the theory that the "tin-kickers" who assessed and reconstructed the accident sequence from partial wreckage had already figured out.

[bubbers44]

DW, ok let us see what the Mexicans do to solve this. I think the cost of doing what you think should be done will be ignored and the cause of crash will be unknown. I can guarantee it. Let us wait for the final cause in a few years. All of their aviation accident investigators will be in the US by then anyway so what do they care.

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

Once they arrive in the U.S. they probably won't be working for the NTSB. My jaded view aside, they do have some NTSB folks down there helping. Perhaps more than we will ever know.

Washington, DC and the federal government of Mexico are often clandestine, strange pals.

[bubbers44]

We will see. Just heard one of her songs a few minutes ago. So sad.

[RatherBeFlying]

In Mexico, his privileges are governed by his Mexican license.

[westhawk]

In an "N" registered aircraft, the FAA may have something to say about that!

[aterpster]

Business as usual in Mexico:

Jenni Rivera Plane Crash Site Robbed by Police | Fox News Latino (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/12/13/jenni-rivera-plane-crash-site-robbed-by-police/?test=latestnews)

[Mark in CA]

The man widely believed to be behind the aviation company is an ex-convict named Christian Esquino who has a long and checkered legal past, including convictions for fraud, one as part of a sweeping drug investigation in Florida in the late 1980s.

Owner of Rivera plane investigated by DEA - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/owner-rivera-plane-investigated-dea-071430027--finance.html)

[robbreid]

Captain held all valid certificates, aircraft was approved for up to 6 month stay in Mexico. Entered FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N345MC)

According to Mexican press, aircraft was being operated privately on behalf of Jenni Rivera pending a sale of the aircraft to her. (or at least illegally chartered but written up that way???) (allegedly!)

[aterpster]

An article in this morning's local newspaper (for where I live). It confirms that the captain held valid FAA certificates. It also discusses the predatory Mexican cops:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/aterpster/RiveraArticleDec14_zps5b36c1e0.jpg

[Lonewolf_50]

rob:
Which part of that link points to the Captain's certs?

I was a bit confused by the format.

[goldfish85]

Mexico License
If they were flying in Mexico with a valid Mexican license, what difference does it make what his USA privileges on a Temporary Airman Certificate are ?


"N" registered airplane operated by a company in Las Vegas owned by a company in Houston.

Doesn't matter if it's a US registered airplane. A Mexican pilot certificate is valid in Mexico for any aircraft.

[chuks]

I believe that under ICAO rules, one can fly a foreign-registered aircraft using one's national licence. (That came up once in Nigeria, when I had to look that up for some Nigerian-licenced pilots who did not want to fly a rather sketchy little Cessna with an N-registration. Try and guess who ended up doing the test flight?) As long as you stay within your national airspace you can fly any foreign-registered aircraft on your national licence. Once you go international, though, then you would need the appropriate national licence for the aircraft's state of registry.

In other words, the accident pilot, a Mexican national flying in Mexico on his Mexican licence, was perfectly legal to operate an N-registered aircraft within Mexico. The assumption is that he had the Lear 25 on his Mexican licence.

This accident will probably turn out to be a big mess in terms of legalities if all the t's have not been crossed and all the i's dotted. It would have to be something like the accident aircraft really being demo'ed for sale, which seems pretty unlikely, or else that it was properly leased to a Mexican operator, because, at first glance, there's no way the American owner could have a Mexican national on their roster to fly on their 135 certificate.

As someone else has alluded to, you can get away with a lot of things by showing a green ID card in various third-world countries, one with a picture of one of our presidents; that gets you out of trouble with local officials. Now, though, after such a high-profile accident, all bets are off.

My bet is that the Mexican authorities shall be shocked, absolutely shocked, to discover that some corners were cut by the owner and the operator of the accident aircraft, when even figuring out exactly who those are is going to be a great mystery.

Edited to add: I use AOL, when part of that is this stupid Huffpost, all those bits of news such as "Boy trapped in refrigerator eats own foot!" So there was a snippet about how the registered address for Starwood Aviation is a post office box in a strip mall next to a tuxedo shop.

We don't have to guess who the flight crew were, at least.

"What went wrong?" is another question easily solved, at least by all the armchair aviators who always come out of the wrinkled fruit's woodwork. "The pilot was too old!" is a very good start, of course. Then there is CFIT, sort of, given that the machine did seem to have suffered some sort of collision with the terrain, yes. The definitive answer is a long way off, at least a year until the full Mexican accident report, assuming one ever comes. Meanwhile, we can settle back here and let our amateur experts get to work sifting all the possibilities.

[twincommander]

As pointed out by others, this tragic episode will bring new meaning to 'Mexican charter flight' or just reinforce old stereotypes about 'Mexican charter flight'. What a disaster all around, and too bad this talented group of passengers made a poor choice.

Having flown make and model of this aircraft I'd opine that pressurization loss was not the cause. Controlled flight into terrain does not fit the scenario. Press accounts point to a descent rate of about 50,000 fpm. Sounds like a high speed upset perhaps followed by Mach tuck and controllability issues. Be interesting to see if all the parts were on the Lear as it impacted. The condition of the captain's remains, probable lack of a FDR, and a primitive CVR (in pieces?) do not help resolve this.

"Free opinion is worth exactly what you pay."

[PJ2]

twincommander;

Out of interest, what is this particular Lear like in a stall or approach to the stall? Is it nasty, is it relatively benign or somewhere in between? Does it flick over or remain reasonably stable in roll in the approach to the stall? Would a stall be difficult to recover from using standard techniques, (unload the wing by getting the nose down)?

[ironbutt57]

Doesn't matter if it's a US registered airplane. A Mexican pilot certificate is valid in Mexico for any aircraft

Sure about that???

[B2N2]

Doesn't matter if it's a US registered airplane. A Mexican pilot certificate is valid in Mexico for any aircraft

Sure about that???

Yes, sure about that.
To act as PIC of an N-reg you need either a FAA certificate (license validation or original issuance) or the license/certificate of the country in which the airplane is operated. Mexico in this case.
With the understanding that the "host" countries regulations allow this.

U.S.‑Registered Civil Aircraft. Section 61.3(a) permits a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft to be operated within a foreign country by a pilot holding a foreign pilot license with the appropriate aircraft rating issued by that foreign country. A person who holds a U.S. pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft rating may also operate a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft in an ICAO Member State country. However, persons who operate a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft in an ICAO Member State country should be aware that some foreign countries may have additional operational and pilot certification requirements. Each pilot must inquire with that foreign country’s CAA and become familiar with that country’s operational and pilot certification requirements before operating a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft in that country.


What I don't understand is how he could have been issued with a "restricted" Commercial under 61.75 (based on foreign license validation) since a license validation only applies as a Private Pilot License.

Back in the 80-ies if you held a foreign CPL you would be issued a US CPL validation with the restriction that it was not valid for Commercial operations, eg only PPL priviliges.
Same with an ATP.
Then at some point the FAA decided to only issues Private certificate validations since that is what you are limited to anyway.
So now a foreign CPL or ATP holder gets a PPL validation.
IR and type ratings included if applicable.

5-597 U.S. PILOT CERTIFICATES THAT MAY BE ISSUED TO A PERSON WHO HOLDS A FOREIGN PILOT LICENSE. The kinds of U.S. pilot certificates that may be issued to a person who holds a foreign pilot license in accordance with § 61.75 are:
A. Private Pilot Certificate. A U.S. private pilot certificate on the basis of a valid foreign pilot license that is at least equivalent to or higher than the U.S. private pilot certification level.
B. Commercial Pilot Certificate. A commercial pilot certificate if the certificate was issued before August 4, 1997 and was on the basis of a foreign pilot license at least equivalent to or higher than the U.S. commercial pilot certification level. After August 4, 1997, a person who applies for a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of holding a foreign pilot license may only be issued at private pilot certification level. As of August 4, 1997, all aircraft ratings issued on a U.S. pilot certificate are issued only at the private pilot certification level. The aircraft ratings on the foreign pilot license must be at least equivalent to or higher than the U.S. private pilot certification level to be placed on the U.S. pilot certificate.


Source: Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS) (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=SubjectCategories&area=05&subject=02&regulation=all)

[flydive1]

What I don't understand is how he could have been issued with a "restricted" Commercial under 61.75 (based on foreign license validation) since a license validation only applies as a Private Pilot License.

Back in the 80-ies if you held a foreign CPL you would be issued a US CPL validation with the restriction that it was not valid for Commercial operations, eg only PPL priviliges.
Same with an ATP.
Then at some point the FAA decided to only issues Private certificate validations since that is what you are limited to anyway.
So now a foreign CPL or ATP holder gets a PPL validation.
IR and type ratings included if applicable.

Yes, all correct, but if you look at the picture, the initial certificate(validation) was issued in 1984.

[chuks]

At a guess, the pilot did a Lear type-rating in the States, when he was issued that restricted Commercial. Then he probably went back to Mexico with the US paperwork and got the Lear type-rating transferred to his Mexican ATPL.

That would be a simple way of getting the Lear type-rating, is all, to save having to hunt up a Mexican TRTO that did Lear type-ratings. The pilot would then have been using his Mexican license from that point, to fly in Mexico, including on an N-registered aircraft. There would have been no point to keeping that American licence valid if that were the case.

For instance, I once flew an N-registered aircraft in Nigeria on my Nigerian license, since my American licence was out of validity for lack of both an FAA Flight Review and an FAA medical. That was perfectly legal, so long as I stayed within Nigerian airspace, as I did. I would only have needed a valid American licence outside of Nigerian airspace.

Assuming that I had got something badly wrong, then our amateur accident investigators could have gone to the FAA website (faa.gov), looked me up and discovered that my American licence was out of validity and thought "Ah-hah!" that I was flying without a valid licence. Take things a step further and understand that one doesn't necessarily need to meet FAA standards to fly an N-registered aircraft legally.

[flydive1]

In any case it should not have been reissued as a CPL on a renewal.
The original was issued before 1997 but upon re-application it should have been a private.
The whole purpose is to get these "restricted" commercials out of circulation.

Do not know, when I went from paper to plastic I was reissued a restricted commercial.
It is possible that they cannot downgrade your license.
Not that there is a big difference between private and restricted commercial

[Lonewolf_50]

chuks, many thanks for explaining that.

[B2N2]

I stand corrected, I was wrong;

Upon further reading in the FSIMS I found the following:
H. Issue a § 61.75 U.S. Pilot Certificate.
NOTE: Section 61.75 limits the issuance of the aircraft rating on the U.S. pilot certificate to the private pilot certification level. However, if an applicant holds a § 61.75 commercial pilot certificate that was originally issued before August 4, 1997, that person may retain that pilot certificate; however, all ratings issued on or since August 4, 1997 are issued at the private pilot certification level.



I can only assume that it is at the discretion of the FSDO inspector since it use the word "may" instead of "must".

[twincommander]

PJ2,

I can shed no light on stall characteristics as all our Learjet training was 'approach to stall' in the aircraft, in the usual three different configurations. Your question is a good one as that could be one of the upset scenarios - but not likely at FL280 given the normal fast climb and cruise profile.

This aircraft probably had its original ancient 'iron gyros' for vertical reference, with their life limited by ball bearings. Imagine the left side attitude indicator tumbling in front of the elderly captain. Imagine his gyro tumbling in incapacitation, with little experience or command presence in the right seat.

The autopilot was notoriously bad even by standards of the day. Legend had it Bill Lear wanted absolute minimum weight and cost, so would not use an autopilot built by a 'real' company like Collins or Bendix-King. The altitude hold function was unlike any other aircraft I've flown... very poor.

Anyone know if this was an RVSM aircraft? I'll bet not, given the $250,000 price tag mentioned in the press and the 28,000 foot altitude of apparent cruise flight. Hard to believe Jenni Rivera ended up in this clunker, given its history, its owner and its crew... very sad.

[bubbers44]

Now that we think the captain was legal in Mexico, how about the 20 year old FO? I was flying J3 cubs and cessna 150's when I was 20. This kid is flying right seat in a Lear Jet? What training did he have? I have been there with bending the rules with charter flying so have an idea what they were doing.

If the old guy was asleep the 20 year old probably would have a problem if the autopilot failed because he bumped the yoke. Now he is hand flying with little or no experience. My post about our Lear flight to LAS earlier shows how easy it is to get a Lear out of control if you don't have experience.

Did you notice the Mexican police that came out to the crash site stole a lot of crash evidence and probably cash and were put in jail while they were guarding it? Now we are expecting an accurate accident report? Unlikely.

[JanetFlight]

bubbers44
Now that we think the captain was legal in Mexico, how about the 20 year old FO? I was flying J3 cubs and cessna 150's when I was 20. This kid is flying right seat in a Lear Jet? What training did he have?

I know at least 3 F/O's flying 747-400's for two very famous and well renowned european airlines around 20 y.o. Its not so unusual in Europe, mainly "by" Holland and Germany skies in these times, and we could see very young ones even at the left seats too. I still remember entering some years ago the cockpit of a Dutch 747 and their "ages-sum" wasnt for sure above fiftys+ :cool:

[PA-28-180]

" Now that we think the captain was legal in Mexico, how about the 20 year old FO? I was flying J3 cubs and cessna 150's when I was 20. This kid is flying right seat in a Lear Jet? What training did he have?"

Just my 2 cents worth....I met a Falcon 10 FO during my first night long distance cross country flight. He started with a Texas (?? it was awhile ago now) as basically a janitor. Became an FO at 21 on his birthday and at age 24 had accumulatd quite a bit of time when I met him. (BEAUTIFUL aircraft btw). I believe it's entirely what you do with your time that matters. You could go to one of the best training centers, screw off and just barely make it through....OR, go to a lower reputation center and bust your hump. I KNOW which pilot I would want...!!

[Rick777]

Following the logic of several posters here that younger is better for pilots, why didn't the 20 yo hot shot save the day?

[roulishollandais]

Bonin was 34. "Better old pilot than good pilot "...

[westhawk]

Thanks to those posters who clarified the issue of operating the N registered Lear in Mexico on a Mexican pilot license. As for the flight being "private", that's pretty much what I expected the story to be.

I've flown extensively in Mexico under parts 91 and 135 and handed out my share of Mexican business cards (in $20, $50 and $100 denominations!) to rectify those niggling little documentation issues which always seem to arise when not using a handler. While this is widely recognized by most seasoned visitors to Mexico as being pro forma in local jurisdictions, the Federales officially frown upon such things and in fact deal with such matters rather harshly when it can be shown that they know about it. That said, it may be perfectly legal to "demo" this N registered aircraft and operate it "privately" under Mexican law as far as I know. I suppose opinions vary and I'll look forward to reading what the official Mexican government view ends up being.

There are a number of possibilities as to how the Lear came to be heading downhill in such a hurry. It's happened to other Lears before for various reasons and sometimes those reasons were never determined. I hope there's enough info to work with so that the reason for this one can be determined.

[screwballburling]

CJ2

Haven't "fully developed" stalled a Lear. However suffice to say, if any fixed leading edge devices are adjusted or replaced, the aircraft has to be stall tested by a Lear test pilot. I was in Germany about 10 years ago and a Lear Test pilot was flown out from Wichita, to perform that test.

Janetflight

This is a great testimony to the current generation of Boeing aircraft of course. What great aircraft they build. I flew corporate, with an ex 3rd world flag carrier, senior 744 Captain. He was unable to perform an ILS, within limits, on raw information alone. He was also unable to safely carry out a visual circuit, using visual means olone. His flying technique was such, he would never have managed (near the ground) a first generation heavy jet built by Boeing. BTW I am qualified on the 707 and 747.

Not being catty here but this does illustrate the total reliance on the reliable, automatics, of today.

[aterpster]

screwball:

This is a great testimony to the current generation of Boeing aircraft of course. What great aircraft they build. I flew corporate, with an ex 3rd world flag carrier, senior 744 Captain. He was unable to perform an ILS, within limits, on raw information alone. He was also unable to safely carry out a visual circuit, using visual means olone. His flying technique was such, he would never have managed (near the ground) a first generation heavy jet built by Boeing. BTW I am qualified on the 707 and 747.

FWIW, my company (TWA) prohited raw data ILS approaches on all its jets, which included a whole lot of 707s, 747s, and 727s. If either the autopilot or flight director was not working the ILS could only be flown to LOC minimums. This restriction was there when I went to work in January, 1964 and remained throughout my carrier. In the later generation 767s and the L1011, it was unlikely to encounter this restriction. Much more likely on the 707 and 727. I can't speak to the early 747, because I never flew it.

[Christodoulidesd]

http://larazonsanluis.com/sitio/noticias/101130/imagen.jpg

[sevenstrokeroll]

a little thread drift...at the dawn of the jet age, even though ILS mins were 1/2 mile vis, IF YOU DIDN"T HAVE A FLIGHT DIRECTOR you could only do 3/4 miles.

it wasn't even an airline thing, it was a jet thing under FAA jurisdiction. the DH was 250' without a FD.

[aterpster]

sevenstrokeroll:

a little thread drift...at the dawn of the jet age, even though ILS mins were 1/2 mile vis, IF YOU DIDN"T HAVE A FLIGHT DIRECTOR you could only do 3/4 miles.

it wasn't even an airline thing, it was a jet thing under FAA jurisdiction. the DH was 250' without a FD.

As I said two messages ago it was LOC MDA that became DH and perhaps not less than 3/4 or RVR 4000. Perhaps some of that was company and some FAA.

[bubbers44]

It seems important that the FAA standards only apply, not TWA SOP's for the rest of us.

The FD's we had in our 737's at Aircal were pretty worthless as were the autopilots for approach. Sometimes the autopilot didn't work and another day the FD going to ONT stuck in pitch down and my FO got low and told her to level out below 1,000 feet and she insisted by staring at the FD saying she was high so said look out the window at the runway angle. Of course she blamed it on the FD sticking and stomped off after landing because it wasn't her fault the FD stuck. Glideslope obviously was not part of her crosscheck.

[PJ2]

bubbers;

"Glideslope obviously was not part of her crosscheck. "

Yep, seen this as well and heard it. I could never understand that it was an "excuse".

The FDs weren't worth paying attention to most times so developing the ability and habit of "looking through the FDs" to the raw data behind occurred naturally. As good as they were, I looked past the Airbus FDs all the time to see what the raw data was doing - if I liked it, I followed them. If the discrepancy was either large or going to stay a while because they were telling us something that I didn't want done with the airplane, I had them turned off. They were helpful during an ILS tho'.

[bubbers44]

JF, that will be a big factor in the AF RIO-Paris flight. They needed the experienced captain on rest break to help them but he wasn't there. Yes you can hire low time pilots but you need someone up there who can hand fly an automatic airplane that is not automatic when the autopilot kicks off. Probably the same reason the Lear in Mexico went down.

[FLYDHC8]

Experience does not mean perfection. You can have an experienced pilot with poor knowledge or an experienced pilot with poor flying skills. Even the ones with great knowledge and flying skill can become overwhelmed when they find themselves in certain emergency situations.

We have seen accidents happen where experienced Pilots were unable to identify and recover from a stall but their supposed inexperienced first officers were able to identify the stall. This is just an example.

Bottom line is is, even though we need experience, proper and intensive training goes a long way as well.

[aterpster]

FLYDHC8:

Bottom line is is, even though we need experience, proper and intensive training goes a long way as well.

A good example in the light aircraft arena is the large percentage of casual instrument pilots who cannot master the sophisticated light airplane RNAV systems of today.

[Green Guard]

Bonin was 34. "Better old pilot than good pilot "...

Very stupid remark. How can someone become OLD pilot if he or she was not GOOD ???

:}

[sevenstrokeroll]

old pilots can be just LUCKY not good...

bubbers...very interesting about the girl and the flight director. sort of disturbing really. if I had ''screwed up'' I would feel badly but acknowledge it and learn from it...not STOMP OFF the plane.

sheesh.

On the DC9 we had the collins FD109...with the ''howard johnson roof'' cue (single cue, not the two sticks)...and it really worked very well, of course one can never completely trust anything.

understanding flying takes time and imagination...

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

It seems important that the FAA standards only apply, not TWA SOP's for the rest of us.

The bottom line for any 121 operator is its ops specs.

[Capt. Flamingo]

Just to add something,

As per Mexican Regs in order to be PIC of an aircraft with MTOW more than 12500 you need an ATP, and in order to hold an ATP you need to be less than 65 years old. So it looks like this operation wasn't legal from both sides of the border, and there is no night VFR in Mexico, only 10 NM from an airport or in special airspaces like Mexico city.

Whatever the case, very strange accident.

Cheers

[Squawk7777]

If the Captain was not legal to fly in Mexico due to his age, how was he able to file a flight plan? The comandancia could find itself having to do a lot of explaining...

[bubbers44]

He wasn't flying as a commercial pilot so could fly past 65.

[bubbers44]

Many of my friends do. I chose not to. Why keep pushing it. You made it through an entire career with no problem and now try to push further to see what happens?

[DownIn3Green]

Arpster....Don't know where you are coming from ref: "LOC" minimums, but I have over 6,000 hrs PIC ont the 727 worldwide and a "raw data" ILS was the norm...FD is nice to have, but simply by the virture of your ATP, you are deemed qualified to conduct this approach without a F/D...If you can't manage it...shame on you...move 3' back to the right seat, or better yet, turn your certificate back into the FAA....

[bubbers44]

My first 727 job was as a captain. My main interest was trying to figure out what the FE was doing, not ever having one before. One day I made him nervous by looking back at his panel and he asked what I was looking for. I said why do the left and center engines have 15 KW loads and the right one zero? He said the right engine light is not illuminated. I asked him to press to test the light and the light was burned out so we took off with only two generators working.

A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.

I don't think the Lears I flew had standby instruments. I recall one midnight departure out of DCA with Hollywood movie people on board when the lights on the instrument panel went bright and one generator dropped off line. I saw the voltage off scale so turned the operating generator off. The one that had kicked off picked up the load and voltage returned to normal 28 VDC. The next day I looked through our systems check list and nothing covered our problem that night. Maintenance found a cannon plug with a short circuit causing our problem. The high voltage may have damaged all of our systems if I had let it continue. I'm not saying this happened in their case but sometimes unusual things happen.

[Desert185]

Bubbers44..."Many of my friends do. I chose not to. Why keep pushing it. You made it through an entire career with no problem and now try to push further to see what happens?"

Not everyone ages at the same rate, or even begins their career with the same capabilities. That's why age 65 is so arbitrary, and essentially unfair.

There are Navy SEAL types in this world and there are pencil pushers. Not all people are equal in ability. Its a blanket "solution" for an individual issue, but so typical of bureaucracies.

I'm tired of society being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Humankind is better than that weak solution. Someday I'll be incapable, but not yet.

"A man's got to know his limitations." --Harry Callahan

[westhawk]

I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly Desert185. Force (of will) is often needed to stay out of the statistical bell curve and live according to your own merits. Keep at it. :ok:

Aspiring to be a statistical "outlier" seems a worthy enough goal even if only to stick a thumb in the eyes of the "pencil pushers"! .


On the topic of the Lear crash, it occurs to me that the preliminary report from the Mexican investigation is still pending. Even though investigations involving such destructive impact sites as this one often take allot of time and sometimes reveal less than we'd like, there are a number of things that can be learned by examining what's there. It becomes a matter of how much effort and expense an entity is willing to invest in an investigation though. That is presently unknown. Perhaps a preliminary report might provide a little more fuel for somewhat more informed speculation.

Past earlier series Lear crashes run the causal gamut from pilot induced mach tuck to electrical malfunction with and without fire, structural failure, pilot incapacitation, you name it. Until more information surfaces this discussion is left to wander.

[sevenstrokeroll]

bubbers ...you make a darn good case for being on top of things. That story about the generators is a good one...and I sure learned about flying from that 727 crash off LAX that you spoke of.

Everything I've really learned about flying is from trying to avoid the same circumstances that lead to a tgold ribbon crash. from the coffe cup in ''fate is the hunter" film, to multiple terrain crashes (sinatra's mom, dean martin's son) to people freezing on the controls and not pushing the stick forward in a crash.

let's learn from this lear crash too

[con-pilot]

A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.



Back when I went to FE school on the 727, they drilled that accident into us.

But now that I think about it, this could be a different accident, but I recall they took off and essential was still on the APU, that the FE had not shut down, then just after rotation, he pulled the APU fire handle, shutting down the APU losing essential and the cockpit went dark.

Back to the accident, I've got about 500 hours in Lear 24/25/28, yes a Lear 28, and I've not a clue what could have caused this one to come basically straight down from FL280.

Sadly, there is a good chance, we'll never know.

[bubbers44]

We were taking off out of SEA with a low ceiling and one generator inop with APU as the second generator. In the clouds shortly after takeoff the FO turned off the APU so were one one generator for a while. It worked out ok since we restarted it but could have been a problem.

What made the DCA takeoff with the over voltage more interesting was our clearance was runway heading for vectors. When we took off with a company Lear talking to tower behind us for takeoff clearance realized we were headed straight into the prohibited area because they changed runways. I turned left to avoid the prohibited space and finally informed tower I need a heading so they reversed to a right turn which took over 30 degrees bank to avoid entering prohibited area and that is when the panel lights went full bright with a pegged out volt meter. It all worked out fine but I didn't have to land in the Hudson so feel fortunate.

Julie Andrews was on the Lear behind us and I was flying the other half of the cast of her movie SOB where she briefly showed her breasts. The cast was met by press at every airport we landed at on that five day trip asking why she did it. She said it was in the script. I know, off topic.

[sevenstrokeroll]

bubbers

Boobs are never off topic. There was a time that was understood by every pilot who knew where the rudder trim knob was on a Douglas.

[bubbers44]

SSR, boobs are always on my mind too. The sound of music Julie Andrews wasn't expected to do that so shocked some people. I flew her two kids and their Nanny from Mexico to LAX in the 70's. She needed a Visa because she was from south america so at Mexican customs I offered another 20 bucks to let the problem be solved. It was kind of fun then but really was happy to finally get an airline job and not have to deal with all that crap.

I knew San Salvador was ripping us off because the fuel upload slip was always more than what our fuel gauges said when they finished fueling. I went down and read their meters before and after fueling and it was always over what we actually got. I collected a month's worth of receipts and what our fuel gauges showed before and after fueling vs what they charged us for and showed the chief pilot. They investigated and found nothing. Price of doing business down there.

[aterpster]

DownGreen:

Arpster....Don't know where you are coming from ref: "LOC" minimums, but I have over 6,000 hrs PIC ont the 727 worldwide and a "raw data" ILS was the norm...FD is nice to have, but simply by the virture of your ATP, you are deemed qualified to conduct this approach without a F/D...If you can't manage it...shame on you...move 3' back to the right seat, or better yet, turn your certificate back into the FAA....

Where I am coming from, my paycheck was signed by TWA and every jet transport had the same limitation. Raw data = LOC MDA as DA. It was in the ops specs, which meant it was an F.A.R.

[sevenstrokeroll]

JET transport mins were higher without flight director/autopilot and additional training in sim. only after that could you do 200/1/2and that was in the Part 121.

that was the way it was (and is) . mind you we all get training on ILS now in the sim and all planes have flight directors (airliner)autopilots now, but I've sure heard of it ...you can even reference it in the book , "fly the wing" by webb.

That is interesting about julie also interesting about south of the border operations. I hated flying outside the USA...I like my rights. Canada was ok...but I was always on guard down south of the border.

Regarding Boobs...amazingly enough, the most beautiful flight attendant and most beautiful girl I've ever seen was not exactly equipped with hamilton standard props if yo uknow what I mean. just incredible, tall, should have been on the cover of a magazine. no makeup either...perfect!


And for the record, the reason I became an airline pilot was beautiful flight attendants.(and for the record and modern times, FEMALE flight attendants/stews)

[bubbers44]

At Aircal we had mostly straight FA's. When I was a new FO I had a new stew come up to the cockpit, her name was Joetta. She was the sweetest pretty thing I had ever seen and unlike the other FA's who were also new and around 25 years old didn't have much make up on. I asked her why the others had so much make up and she didn't? She said should I put more on? I said no, you are absolutely gorgeous just the way you are. The captain said you better watch out for this guy.

My first flight observing on the jump seat of a 737 this beautiful blonde with great boobs came up and had two cups of coffee in her hand to give to the pilots flying. ATC called and got their attention as we hit a bump and she lost her balance putting her boobs on my ears. I though I had died and gone to heaven with this job. PSA and Aircal had the hottest stews in California. That is where I got my wife. First I convinced her she would be a shoe in for Aircal because she didn't think they would hire her. They did and many years later we started dating. If we drift off topic it should be about boobs, don't you think?

[con-pilot]

If we drift off topic it should be about boobs, don't you think?

I can't think of a better reason. :ok:

Course one slight problem wiht the FAs I flew with, after they got off the aircraft, they were armed. :(

[Spooky 2]

Sorry for continuing the thread drift but the APU running inflight has me baffeld. I have about 7000 hours in the airplane and for some reans I cannot ever recall running the APU inflight. What am I missing??

[sevenstrokeroll]

bubbers, you are a lucky guy!

and yes, thread drift to boobs...that's the way real pilots talk in real airplanes in the real sky...no flight sim video here.

there will be those who object...I will call them the British types (no sex please, we're british)...and God bless them all.

so let there be thread drift...it is the real way we talk as pilots (not engineers).

[con-pilot]

Sorry for continuing the thread drift but the APU running inflight has me baffeld. I have about 7000 hours in the airplane and for some reans I cannot ever recall running the APU inflight. What am I missing??

The only way that the APU can run in flight on a 727, is if the FE forgets to turn it off prior to takeoff. Then the only way to shut it down, is to pull the APU fire handle. I had it happen to me twice, when the FE forgot to shut it down.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Airbubba]

727 APU could not be started in-flight....

....but it would run if left on for takeoff and if somehow not noticed could result in a wheel well fire indication on climb out.


Years ago in TXL we had a young FE who forgot to turn off the APU not once, but twice. He was advised that his career prospects were limited and that he should seek employment elsewhere.

He got on with a cargo airline in MEM and did well. Sadly, he passed away a couple of years ago...

[con-pilot]

Sorry for more thread drift.

a wheel well fire indication on climb out

The two times it happened to me, we got an APU fire alarm. In school I was taught that it would be a wheel well fire indication as well, but...

Oh, and neither time was it a PFE that left the APU running, but a pilot playing FE.

[West Coast]

Never flew the 727, curious as to why running the APU after takeoff is a no no beyond the immediate consideration of slightly increased fuel burn. From the posts here, it sounds like there's some unforeseen hazard.

Thanks

[con-pilot]

I was taught that it would just get too hot in the wheel well area for continued operations.

[bubbers44]

I started in the airlines with a B737, that is what I was talking about with the APU take off. Aircal didn't have 727's. Yes I know the 727 can't operate in the air with an APU. American had 727's.
Lets get back to boobs.

By the way does anybody know what the copilot Lear experience was who was 20 years old flying a Lear Jet had? I believe the 78 year old captain at 4:00 AM was not flying. I think that is the probable cause of the accident. The autopilot failed and he couldn't fly it like my buddy who couldn't control our flight into LAS.

[con-pilot]

I believe the 78 year old captain at 4:00 AM was not flying. I think that is the probable cause of the accident. The autopilot failed and he couldn't fly it like my buddy who couldn't control our flight into LAS.

That is an likely probable cause for sure. While from the photos from the accident site shows very little wreckage to work with, as I learned in NTSB Aircraft Accident Investigators school, the NTSB can find out a hell of lot with very little material. But some, it is just impossible to find the cause, there is just not enough left.

And I will very surprised if the CVR was working.

[aterpster]

bubbers 44:

A long time ago a 727 was lost at night taking off from LAX at night with two generators and another was lost overloading the final one and losing everything. That might have been the reason for standby instruments as we have now.

I thought all 727s had standby power in case all three generators and essential power were lost. Standby power had to be switched on. It powered the captain's normal flight instruments and I believe one VHF comm and one nav comm from the battery bus. UAL's airplane that went into the ocean departing LAX had standby power but the stock Boeing position for the standby power switch was on the F/E panel. TWA paid to have it placed on the overhead panel where all three crew members could get to it.

[con-pilot]

I thought all 727s had standby power in case all three generators and essential power were lost. Standby power had to be switched on.

It does and it does have to be manually switched on. Or correctly stated, switched over.

[aterpster]

con-pilot:

It does and it does have to be manually switched on. Or correctly stated, switched over.

Since ours was a red guarded toggle switch on the overhead we called it "on."

[bubbers44]

727 days were back in the 90's but I think standby power for standby instruments lasted for about 30 minutes with no pilot input.

[Airbubba]

TWA paid to have it placed on the overhead panel where all three crew members could get to it.

Seems like the TWA B-727 FE panel had an 'AC meters' wafer switch in place of the moved essential power switch. That could sure affect your flow if someone yelled 'Check Essential!'

TWA famously spec'ed toggle switches on the B-727 and other aircraft panels to operate backwards from other carriers. Forward was off for the landing lights on a TWA plane as I recall. Legend had it that it was a Howard Hughes thing.

That LR-JET type rating that many of us here have covers a wide variety of models with many types of wings, engines, reversers and avionics suites.

Still, most of the bizjet fleet sizes are small unlike some of the legacy and cargo airlines with used equipment from other carriers. I once flew for an airline that had 17 different versions of the B-727 (including ex-TWA B-727-231's).

[bubbers44]

I loved the 727. It was so easy to fly with the extra FE. I would have retired in it but we got rid of them so had to go to the B757 and 767. Flying to TGU, Honduras in the 757 was as much fun as the 727 because we could land either north or south. I loved the 727 and the 757. The 727 was easy to fly but the 757 had the power to fix anything that you got into.

[Passenger 389]

Boobs are never off topic.

Seven people died in this recent incident. Their friends, family and colleagues may monitor this thread for information on what transpired.

I have great appreciation for the female form --and am not British-- but respectfully suggest this particular thread is not the place for such discussion. Just my opinion, speaking as a guest and non-pilot.

[BobM2]

I thought all 727s had standby power in case all three generators and essential power were lost.
As I recall, the third or standby attitude indicator, powered from the battery buss, was added after UAL 266 & was mandated by FAA on all jet transports, not just 727s.

[galaxy flyer]

Essential power came off which generator the FE selected, except for the TWA config where, guess any pilot could select it. But no auto-switching, if STBY wasn't selected and 3 gens out--no flight instruments! I was always taught never to go with #3 gen inop--if you lost #1 and #2 engines there would be no way to power the standby hyd pump and no rudder.

At a recurrent a captain asked why he got a fire bell, they silenced before they could identify the light in the handle. The FEs in the back row snickered while the instructor mumbled something like he'd never heard of that happening.

Westie. It was designed on the B727 as an afterthought. Boeing mounted in the right wheel well, so no airflow for cooling.

[West Coast]

Thanks Galaxy, makes sense now.

[Huck]

Most of my Wookie time on the 727 was at night. In the sim we learned that if you lost essential power that big damn red light would come on beside the essential switch. First thing you did was yank the cover off - the bare bulb would illuminate the cockpit for everybody and allow you to find the brake interconnect if you were on the ground.

That plane only had three pilots because they couldn't fit four....

[aterpster]

BobM2:

As I recall, the third or standby attitude indicator, powered from the battery buss, was added after UAL 266 & was mandated by FAA on all jet transports, not just 727s

That could very well be the case. But, on the date of the accident a 727's standby power would have powered the captain's normal instruments plus (I think) VHF 1 and NAV 1.

[aterpster]

g.f.:

Essential power came off which generator the FE selected, except for the TWA config where, guess any pilot could select it. But no auto-switching, if STBY wasn't selected and 3 gens out--no flight instruments! I was always taught never to go with #3 gen inop--if you lost #1 and #2 engines there would be no way to power the standby hyd pump and no rudder.

The essential power selector was on the F/E panel in the standard Boeing configuration. Only the F/E could select essential power. It was the standby power switch that TWA paid Boeing to place on the overhead panel so any of the three could turn it on.

[con-pilot]

TWA famously spec'ed toggle switches on the B-727 and other aircraft panels to operate backwards from other carriers

Very true and the first time I flew an ex-TWA 727 it sure got my attention.

And sorry West, for some reason I thought you knew the APU was in the main gear well. As Galaxy said, no airflow with the gear retracted.

At a recurrent a captain asked why he got a fire bell, they silenced before they could identify the light in the handle

That was exactly what happened to me the first time the I had an FE leave the APU on after takeoff. We were cruising in the mid-20s, short hop, and the fire bell sounded and my co-pilot silenced it before I could stop him. Of course none of the fire lights on the glare shield were lit up. So we tested all the fire lights, they all worked. It took me a minute or so before the it hit me, APU, so we looked back and sure enough, it was on.

Then the FE, I guess trying to make amends for leaving the damn thing on, pulled the fire handle and fired the bottle before I could stop him. So no APU for the rest of the day. Fortunately that night we RONed at a stop we had maintenance and they replaced the bottle. You better believe that he, the FE, bought the beers that night.

[Spooky 2]

It is true about the backwards switches on the TWA aircraft but I have to wonder if the airplane you flew was a former Lufthansa 727-030 which also had that switch configuration. I delievered such an airplanne to the FAA back around 1979 or so and I heard it wound up in the Con-Air fleet?

The Lufthansa config came about becasue TWA did a lot of hands on consulting for Luftansa in the arly fifties and beyond. TWA treated the overhead panels in their aircraft as "vertical" panels much as the FE panel would have been. Not only the landinghts but all the switch logic was back (or up) and on in these aircraft.

[BobM2]

That could very well be the case. But, on the date of the accident a 727's standby power would have powered the captain's normal instruments plus (I think) VHF 1 and NAV 1.
It's been 35+ yrs...but, as I recall, the essential power selector had 5 positions - battery - gen 1 - 2 - 3 - apu. Normally in flight, essential power was on gen 3. The F/E IMMEDIATE response to a "9 light trip" (which is what you got on the elec panel if all gens failed) was the memory drill known as EDP - ESSENTIAL power selected to battery - DOWNLOAD electrical draws by turning off galley power, one pack to kill the pack fan, etc - POWER the buss by attempting to reset one or more generators.

It was theorized on UAL 266 that when the engine failed, the one remaining gen tripped due to overload, the F/E selected the essential power to bat, but, in the download process, inadvertantly turned off the bat switch instead of galley power as the two switches were in close proximity & neither had guards. At night, low altitude in the overcast, everything went dark.

In response to this accident, a guard was placed over the bat switch & the previously discussed third horizon was mandated.

[con-pilot]

you flew was a former Lufthansa 727-030 which also had that switch configuration

Oh god, you're asked my brain cells to wake up. If we did end up with that aircraft, I sure don't remember the landing lights switches being opposite on one aircraft from the other two.

We only received one 727 (N27) from the FAA, the other two (a 100 and a 200) we bought. N 27 was the one that was involved in the midair with a Cessna 172 when it was still with FAA, if that helps.

We did dry lease quite a few 727s during the years I was there and I do remember one was an ex-TWA bird. Also, we leased one that was the old Hoot Gibson aircraft, that aircraft wanted to fly sideways more than it did straight.

Wait a minute, that was the one. It was the former TWA 727 that we flew for a while.

[West Coast]

Con

No worries. I passed up an opportunity to be a plumber on the 727 in the 90's. One of my regrets now for having not done it.

[aterpster]

airbubba:

Seems like the TWA B-727 FE panel had an 'AC meters' wafer switch in place of the moved essential power switch. That could sure affect your flow if someone yelled 'Check Essential!'

They didn't move the essential power selector. It was the standby power they moved to the overhead.

TWA famously spec'ed toggle switches on the B-727 and other aircraft panels to operate backwards from other carriers. Forward was off for the landing lights on a TWA plane as I recall. Legend had it that it was a Howard Hughes thing.

That one never made sense to me. We believed it was a Gordie Granger thing, not a Howard Hughes thing. But, I could be wrong.

Fortunately, that era didn't get to my last two TWA airplanes, the L1011 and 767.

[aterpster]

con-pilot:

We did dry lease quite a few 727s during the years I was there and I do remember one was an ex-TWA bird. Also, we leased one that was the old Hoot Gibson aircraft, that aircraft wanted to fly sideways more than it did straight.

The "Hoot Gibson" bird was a -100 (-31 type for TWA). I flew it shortly after it was repaired and returned to the line. The F/E took me down to the ramp to show me the still visible ripples on the aft fuselage. Ugh!

[con-pilot]

still visible ripples on the aft fuselage. Ugh!

As you flew it, you know 'Ugh' doesn't even come close. :p

We leased it from some charter airline based on DFW, Texas Air or something like that.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I understand/understood that the philosophy of the TWAswitches was: (wait for it)

all the switches were forward for takeoff...everything that needed to be "ON" was forward pointing towards the nose

it makes alot of sense if looked at that way.

TWA was really a pioneer as Pan Am...My TWA interview was the most thorough of any. Discussing windshear scenarios and the then recent DC9 fire with landing at CVG. They have my respect...indeed while flying back home from my TWA interview I sat next to a very nice TWA captain in civies...we talked flying including the book, 'Handling the Big Jets" by davies. He told me that TWA issued it to all pilots...how many airlines did that? He also told me he was called into the chief pilot's office because he landed at Vref plus 21 knots due to wind in KPHL. Chief pilot said, next time divert.

The REAL TWA has Lindbergh in its heritage...he test flew one of the first DC2's out of the highest airport on the route (cheyene I think)...he cut the switches without warning on one engine at or near what we now call V1...the douglas pilot yelled at him "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING"...Lindbergh said, our pilots will fly it here on bad days and nights and an engine failure will be without warning.

they made it around the patch just fine thank you.


And dear non pilot poster concerning yourself witht the boob talk vs the tragedy of the crash...well , we know people died in this crash...we really do. And if we dwelled on it, we wouldn't fly anymore. that' has been tradition since the earliest days of our profession...just check out old movies like, "only angels have wings" and the like.

And I hope you do.

no disrespect is meant to the lost ones...and it is pretty obvious to some of us that if someone had done things right, we wouldn't have this thread at all. But somewhere there was a shortcut.

[bubbers44]

It probably will be some time before we will get any more useful information about why this Lear crashed if ever. We are sorry good people were lost.

All of us want to learn from accidents so they are not repeated. We learned from the 727 crash out of LAX at night. We learned from the MD80's that took off with no flaps. We learned from the DC10 AA flight out of ORD. We learned from the AA Cali crash into terrain.

We learn from accidents and I feel we won't learn anything from this one but the pilots flying this flight might have learned how not to have had this accident if they had read and learned from these accident reports and more. The 20 year old probably flying probably hadn't read any of them.

Just my opinion but my whole career I put myself in their shoes and what I would do to not let it happen to me.

One year after the Swissair cockpit fire over Halifax where all were killed I had smoke throughout the B757 heading for Tegucigalpa, Honduras over the Florida Keys. Our checklist was to shut off nonessential busses and wait to see if the smoke diminished. I made it an immediate action item before the checklist even though it was not company procedure. Our company had not changed anything after their crash so I did. I declared an emergency and descended direct MIA and landed with fire trucks following us to the gate.

We still had smoke smell throughout the airplane but found out it was a galley oven short circuit causing the smell and possible fire. Two weeks later AA changed our check list to what I did after I submitted my report.

We left an hour later in another 757.

[bubbers44]

Pilots can learn a lot from other pilot misakes. We can read about them so we don't do them again. I loved flying airplanes no matter what size. Retiring with no incidents was from seeing how not to make the same mistakes others have. I don't think I would change anything I did in my career. I started out with little airplanes and ended up in big ones. Loved all of them. I just wish the big airplane pilots today could still hand fly. I know some still can but the rest worry me.

[aterpster]

Has a bomb been ruled out in this accident?

[fleigle]

Welllll, surely a bomb at altitude would spread bits all over the place, is it not reported that the debris field was quite small???.

[barit1]

BobM2:As I recall, the third or standby attitude indicator, powered from the battery buss, was added after UAL 266 & was mandated by FAA on all jet transports, not just 727s.


This 1965 Lear 23 accident (http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR67-AB.pdf) was also a motivation for installing standby attitude instrumentation.

[Loose rivets]

I know I have a bee in my bonnet about T&S indicators, but the above, and the 74' out of Stansted, and an medium weight jet transport, fairly near that time, all might well have been saved by a tied gyro.

Especially, if it had been fitted with a significant warning light to show full scale deflection.

What did they do? Removed them altogether.

[aterpster]

Welllll, surely a bomb at altitude would spread bits all over the place, is it not reported that the debris field was quite small???.
f

I haven't seen any reports than could be considered reliable. It is Mexico and it is a remote area.

[Spooky 2]

Sevenstrokeroll...your not paying attention to the light switches :}. When they are ON they aft and not pointing to the nose. So much for that theory:)!

[Squawk7777]

It probably will be some time before we will get any more useful information about why this Lear crashed if ever. We are sorry good people were lost.

You got me thinking. Do the Mexican authorities make aircraft accident reports public?

Reason asking is that I saw one of my students airplane sitting in the ACA sun one day in 2004, twisted, broken and just sad to watch. N55ES was the tail number. Never found out what happened. :(

[Airbubba]

You got me thinking. Do the Mexican authorities make aircraft accident reports public?

Reason asking is that I saw one of my students airplane sitting in the ACA sun one day in 2004, twisted, broken and just sad to watch. N55ES was the tail number. Never found out what happened.

A picture of the wreckage next to a G-I carcass is here:

Photos: Lancair Lancair Super ES Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lancair-Lancair-Super/0559261/&sid=db71ed829899793fd31660e5ea5a9f3e)

They didn't move the essential power selector. It was the standby power they moved to the overhead.

Never heard of a separate standby power selector on the FE panel (I only flew -200's). The essential power selector was a wafer switch and standby power was one of the selections (along with APU, gens 1-3 and external) is this the one you are thinking of? The essential power selector panel had a red covered 'FAIL' light that Huck mentioned earlier, if you didn't find that brake interconnect on the ground when the power tripped off it could get exciting real fast.

Most, but not all, essential power selector switch knobs were yellow or white to help differentiate them from the very similar looking AC Meters switch (with the two generator paralleling lights).

[aterpster]

Airbubba:

Never heard of a separate standby power selector on the FE panel (I only flew -200's). The essential power selector was a wafer switch and standby power was one of the selections (along with APU, gens 1-3 and external) is this the one you are thinking of?

I assumed there was a separate standby switch on the F/E panel on the Boeing standard 727. I never saw the F/E panel of any non-TWA 727.

Our 727s had the F/E wafer switch but no standby power selection. TWA had standby power relocated to the pilot overhead panel with a red guard cover. Any of the three crewmembers could reach it.

[sevenstrokeroll]

spooky2...last time I checked you don't need the landing lights ON to takeoff. while nice to have at any time, landing lights (of the extend/retract type) are drag producers...the philosophy is that anything that slows you down is ...WAIT FOR IT>> LIKE pulling back on the reins of the old fashioned biological horse.

so, anything that slows you down, goes aft (one philosophy)...the flaps go aft..you slow down...the gear pulls out of its dent and then goes down...you slow down etc.

there are all sorts of neat philosophies in flying...the neatest yet wrongest was the way FRENCH PLANES had their throttles back in prehistoric times.. YOU PULLED THE THROTTLE AFT (not like a horse) TO GO TO MAX POWER...WHY?

well, you pull the stick back to go up (yeah right) and you pull the throttle back cuz you need more oomph to go up...therefore to go up...pull everything back.

Maybe that's why France surrendered to the ah crowd (adolf hitler crowd).

And maybe France still wants revenge and those darn airbussess........oh never mind.

so spooky, my philosopy lesson holds true...and you can see if the lights aren't on if you really need them at night...and during IMC, you might not want them on...and extendable ones during max perf takeoffs add drag...hmmmmm, oh those TWA/Howard Hughes types were pretty smart.

[bubbers44]

The Lear Jet crash since it was in Mexico and not an airliner will not get much attention. We probably won't get much more info than we already have. It doesn't rate a lot of attention down there. We will have to guess what caused it to crash. We all have our thoughts but who knows?

[Airbubba]

Since we are talking so much about differences in aircraft configuration, is there an FAA database that would tell which STC's, mods and certifications that this Lear would/should have?

Our pilot certificates and medicals are online for a prospective employer or pax to check, is there something similar for GA aircraft maintenance records?

Over on the part 121 side it seems to me that the feds have been increasingly obsessed with documentation. A missing signature or piece of paper that would formerly be handled with a sticky note from a secretary is now self-reported to the feds for a possible letter or worse.

[Squawk7777]

The Lear Jet crash since it was in Mexico and not an airliner will not get much attention. We probably won't get much more info than we already have. It doesn't rate a lot of attention down there. We will have to guess what caused it to crash. We all have our thoughts but who knows?

I know it's Mexico, but what authority conducts the post crash investigation? SCT?

[aterpster]

I know it's Mexico, but what authority conducts the post crash investigation? SCT?

Yes, SCT. The NTSB is assisting but the NTSB cannot release any information.

In any case, the NTSB has been suspect in a few of its own investigations.