Logging Flight Time - EASA vs FAA

[this is my username]

Trying to get my head around the new EASA rules for logging flight time.

For my FAA training, as soon as I got my FAA Private Cert I was able to log most of my dual training time (Instrument and Commercial) as "PIC" as I was qualified to fly the aircraft, even though the time was with an Instructor and would have been recorded as "Pu/t" under CAA / JAR rules.

I'm trying to work out what has changed (if anything) now that EASA is here - the context is that I want to work out how much EASA "PIC" time I need to clock up before I'm eligible to apply for an EASA CPL.

Looking at the EASA AMCs here: http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-016-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf it says:

(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;

.. so does my instructional time in the US which was logged as "PIC" when I was qualified to fly the aircraft but training for the issue of a new rating now count as "PIC" under EASA, or is it Pu/t (or whatever EASA call it now)?

And could anyone please enlighten me as to what flight time qualifies as "SPIC" ?

I suspect I know that answer but I thought it would be worth asking those of you who work with this stuff on a daily basis.

Just to add a bit of background - I have a lot of flight time on aircraft which is recognised by the FAA but not recognised by EASA, so I only have about 125hrs TT on "airplanes" and will have to add some "aeroplane" hours if I am going to do an EASA CPL/IR.

Thanks

[mad_jock]

SPIC is only available for intergrated courses under JAR or EASA. Unless you have been on one of these courses you won't be able to log it.

PIC can only be logged when you have signed the tech log as the PIC. If anyone else has your not PIC.

DUAL is any time you have been instructed on the flight and the instructor has signed the tech log.

PICUS you can log for any successful flight test with an examinor. If you failed it you log it as DUAL.

There is no such thing as P/UT and hasn't been since JAR came in.

[BillieBob]

PICUS you can log for any successful flight test with an examinor.That has been the UK's view in the past but it is not supported by Part-FCL. According to FCL.010, PICUS may be logged only by a 'co-pilot' which, in turn, is defined as "a pilot operating other than as pilot in command, on an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required...." Therefore, it would appear that PICUS may be logged only in a multi-crew environment.

[this is my username]

Hi MJ

Thanks for the response.

Having been blessed with operating non JAR / EASA aircraft for a long time it looks like I may have a little more learning to do than I thought.

Your definitions may work well on EASA aircraft, but how do they map across to FAA-land where, for example, there is no tech log? I guess that the answer is "if you have received instruction then it is Dual" but that is dependent on whether you received instruction or not, and not on whether a tech log was signed and if so by whom. I can't see a reference to the tech log in the AMC either.

[mad_jock]

Some one must be PIC on the aircraft. And you must have some system that states who is the PIC. Tech log is the usual way when the PIC signs the aircraft out.

There is no problem logging hours on none EASA reg aircraft. They all count as long as you log them according to the EASA rules. So any hours in Cessna pippers or any common training aircraft do count. Its when you get into microlight type aircraft you may not be able to count them towards the pre course requirements for cpl.

If you had an instructor next to you then they are counted as duel unless they were nothing to do with the flight and you were transporting them somewhere but I suspect that the instructor will have booked them as PIC as well so you won't be able to use them.

If your solo or don't have an instructor next to you, they are PIC.

Forget anything to do with hours logged as safety pilot in the RHS they won't count.

[this is my username]

Thanks for the info

[Level Attitude]

Quote:
PICUS you can log for any successful flight test with an examinor.

That has been the UK's view in the past but it is not supported by Part-FCL. According to FCL.010, PICUS may be logged only by a 'co-pilot' which, in turn, is defined as "a pilot operating other than as pilot in command, on an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required...." Therefore, it would appear that PICUS may be logged only in a multi-crew environment.

Some (usually) Single Pilot Aircraft require multi-crew for certain operations.
I would suggest that you need both Examiner and Candidate on board in order to conduct a flight test.

[Krallu]

According to EASA can you log a flight both as PIC and as Dual simultaneously?

[Genghis the Engineer]

No.


On the microlight point made earlier - 3 axis microlight aeroplanes as defined in Annex II can be logged SEL in FAAland, but in EASAland are microlights so need totalling separately. In some occasions a small percentage of that time can be counted to licence requirements - check the rulebook!

G

[Krallu]

If I am to do a training flight with a pilot in an aircraft where you do not have rudder pedals on instructor seat. But the pilot is fully licensed and certified to fly the aircraft as a PIC.

In this situation he/she must be the PIC because I do not have full controls to be the PIC, but I can still instruct as an instructor onboard.

In this situation he must log both PIC and Dual time? Since dual time is instructions received from instructor right and he is the PIC for the flight. Am I wrong?

At the same time the EASA rules says:

(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;

That means that I as an instructor giving a training flight also should log this flight as PIC.

[M-ONGO]

Trainingflight in new type of aircraft?? May FI? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-521452.html)

I see you have asked similar questions before. Are you a licenced FI?

AMC1 ORA.ATO.135

"Each training aircraft should be .... fitted with primary flight controls that are instantly accessible by both the student and the instructor (for example dual flight controls or a centre control stick). Swing-over flight controls should not be used. If the only rudder pedals are in front of the student then they are clearly not instantly accessible by the instructor and the aircraft may not be used for dual flight instruction"

[Krallu]

True. But not totally correct.
What you are saying only applies to flight training beeing made in a flight school towards a licence or rating for which you need an approved flight school.

According to a question I made after the last thread directly to the authority a training flight is a flight that do not need a flight school permit and therefore this rule you quoted does not apply. This rule only applies to school flights that needs an ATO permission. And you can indeed do a training flight without full controls.

Therefore this specific situation.

[M-ONGO]

And you can indeed do a training flight without full controls.

Then you are a braver man than me. Go ahead. Log it a you see fit...

Do you really want to be sat next to a possibly very rusty PPL without rudder pedals whilst he/she is demonstrating stalls in a turn lets say?

[Krallu]

No and that is not the point with this.
You should always decide if you would like to do the flight or not.

The situation arises with very experienced pilots who uses their own aircraft and whises to have an instructor onboard in their own aircraft for a training flight.

Some of the privately owned aircrafts do not have full controls on the other side but that should not stop them from having an instructor onboard for training in them.

(If the instructor should feel that the pilot is rusty then he should suggest using another aircraft of course.)

But pretty often the situation arises where an instructor gets the question to go up with a privately owned aircraft with a very good current pilot. In this situation how do you log it accoring to all rules correctly?

[S-Works]

Depends on the purpose of the flight. If its for the revalidation of an SEP Class Rating where the dual flight is required for revalidation by experience then its dual. I will and do quite happily fly this flight as dual in aircraft not fully equipped with dual controls. The RV4 is an example of this.

Whenever I am in an aircraft in a teaching capacity then I am commander and its dual. If I am just going along in a mentoring capacity then the pilot is commander and I log nothing as I am going along for a ride and may be able to add something useful to the pilots experience by giving tips and hints.

You can throw as many scenarios as you want at this. The main thing is to establish the purpose of the flight, agree the terms up front and go and do the flight. There is way to much complication made of this for no real reason.

Speaking as the HoT of an ATO I do not accept any FAA flights that have been logged as P1 where the purpose of the flight was clearly Instruction and in EASA world would be dual as acceptable requirements for any of the courses that we offer as an ATO where P1 time is needed.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that perhaps there's some dodgy interpretation of their own rules going on in FAAland...

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/sdl/local_more/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

Says..


According to the Federal Register there are only three ways a private or commercial pilot can properly log pilot-in-command time.

1. When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.

2.When the pilot is sole occupant of the aircraft.

3. When the pilot is acting as pilot-in- command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is conducted....



A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" [61.51 (e)(1)(i)]....



Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions.

However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. .....

However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot...............

A student pilot can now log PIC. That’s new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.



Personally I've never logged PiC in FAAland with an instructor on board - it just seems totally dishonest and I'm pretty certain that they've always touched the controls at some point, and anyhow, it's still hours.

Looking at FAR51-51 (http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_61-51.html), it seems pretty clear that a student flying with an instructor CANNOT log PiC, whether they're authorised solo or not.

G

[Krallu]

Bose-X

You understand the situation.
But if you are to do a revalidation in RV4 for example. Do you log yourself as a PIC and the "student" as Dual even though you don't have full controls. I think somewhere the rules also says that to be pilot in command you need to have full controls.

And if you are giving the PIC to the "student" in the revalidation flight then EASA rules also says that the instructor can log all flights as PIC.

Should both the instructor and student log PIC at the same time?

[M-ONGO]

Someone needs to go back to the books. Seriously, how can you give quality instruction without knowing the rules? I'm not doubting your 'poling' ability but this question is absurd.

Should both the instructor and student log PIC at the same time?

[Krallu]

M-ONGO

The thing is that this situation for some instructors arises very seldom. For me for example first time in 6 years.

So this is nothing that you have to teach people everyday.

For normal PPL teaching it is easy and I guess most of us know the rules. But for this specific seldom occurance for some it isnt equally easy to know all the rules.

The tricky rule is this one:

(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;

It says for ALL flight time during when he or she acts as an instructor.

But what if the "student" needs to be the PIC for the flight because of not having full controls. Then this rule says ALL situations anyway. You have a situation if you strict follow the rules which ends up in both student and pilot logging PIC.

[M-ONGO]

To revalidate a rating you must:

within the 3 months before the rating's expiry date, pass a proficiency check in the relevant class in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part with an examiner;
or
within the 12 months before the expiry date of the rating, complete 12 hours of flight time in the relevant class, including:

6 hours as PIC;
12 take-offs and 12 landings; and
a training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI).
You are exempt from this flight if you have passed a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test in any other class or type of aeroplane within the 12 months before the expiry date.

Above from here: Revalidate a SEP Aeroplane Class Rating | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2685&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=detail&appproc=30)

I cannot see how the student can log as P1 the "training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI)". If it's a training flight, surely it must be logged as dual.

[Level Attitude]

(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;

It says for ALL flight time during when he or she acts as an instructor.If they are alone in the aircraft it is not an Instructional Flight. If they are accompanied in the aircraft it is still not an Instructional Flight unless the person accompanying them logs DUAL.

But what if the "student" needs to be the PIC for the flight because of not having full controls. Then this rule says ALL situations anyway. You have a situation if you strict follow the rules which ends up in both student and pilot logging PIC. If the "student" does not log DUAL then they were not a student (under EASA).

The PIC of an aircraft does not need full controls, does not even need to be at the controls at all (think of the Captain (PIC) having a snooze in the back of a large jet whilst his First and Second Officers fly the plane).

Part-FCL Definitions: Pilot-in-command’ (PIC) means the pilot designated as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of the flight.In GA the usual way for a PIC/Instructor to ensure they can make the plane do what they want is to sit at a full set of controls, 'Taking Control' if they wish/deem appropriate.

Bose-x has stated that, in certain, legally allowed, situations, where he trusts the student he will fly without a full set of controls in front of him - relying on the student to obey any commands he is given.

But, as he states, either he is PIC and the Student logs DUAL; or the "student" logs PIC and Bose is just a Passenger who can offer advice.

[Krallu]

That is the requirements for revalidation yes. But they do not say anything about who is PIC on the training flight.

If you are current and rated on the aircraft you can be legally PIC and at the same time do a training flight.

[Krallu]

But, as he states, either he is PIC and the Student logs DUAL; or the "student" logs PIC and Bose is just a Passenger who can offer advice.

Strange because flight instructor instructors here tell new instructors that they can let the student on a training flight be PIC and still they should log only FI time instead.

[Krallu]

Sounds like I should make a call to the authority to set things straight.

[Level Attitude]

If you are current and rated on the aircraft you can be legally PIC and at the same time do a training flight.NO! Under EASA you are either PIC or DUAL for Single Pilot Operations (you cannot be both at the same time).

If a pilot is legal to fly and happens to be accompanied by an Instructor then a decision needs to be made (before flight) who is to be PIC.

If the Instructor is PIC then the other pilot is either a Passenger who logs nothing, or a Student who logs DUAL.

If the pilot is PIC then the Instructor is just a Passenger, logs nothing, and has no legal authority to influence the flight.

[nick14]

Amc1 FCL.050

b) (1) (ii)

The applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision is countersigned by the instructor.

[S-Works]

Nick14, that refers only to the solo consolidation time that is logged under an integrated course. No other time is permitted and as its states the supervising FI must sign it off. It is not used when an Instructor is onboard, that times is dual.

Krallu, You are way of the mark with this one and it shows a very worrying lack of understanding of the responsibilities of an FI(A) under EASA. If the purpose of a flight is for Instruction then it is dual. Nothing else. I can think of a few aircraft that I have flown as commander where I did not have a full set of controls including one that only had a throw over yoke!

There is no circumstance for a dual flight under EASA where two people will be logging command time.

If you are current and rated on the aircraft you can be legally PIC and at the same time do a training flight.

Not under EASA, if you are doing a training flight for the purposes of revalidating a rating then it is a dual flight. The regulation is quite clear that you must have logged one hour of dual time in order to revalidate by experience.

I do wonder why we keep having these discussions over and over again. It is simple stuff and should be taught on the FI(A) course.

[nick14]

The title of that section is merely Logging of flight time, and as an integrated course student you wouldn't hold a licence. SPIC is logged for the IF phase and there is always an instructor on board, the solo time is pure PIC.

I agree with your other points: instructional flight is just that, only dual is logged by student, PIC for the FI/CRI/TRI. If not then one must be designated as PIC.