RJ 100s at BA EOG [Archive]

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 15:45

Not quite the case bral. BAR pilots receive a largely unwanted, enforced transfer to London. RJ initially crewed by LGW crews who then are phased out to make way for BACE pilots. Net result, 150 new jobs for BACE pilots, 150 less jobs for BA mainline pilots. Despite what BA say they have no plans to run down the regions, they simply want to slash costs by farming out the flight crew jobs and forcing the cabin crew to take a massive pay cut to BACE terms. Furthermore, why shouldn't BALPA restrict your access to larger aircraft? If BA wants to operate large aircraft in its colours it should employ BA pilots to do it. How would you feel if the BACE management told you that you were too expensive and they were about to eliminate your jobs and replace you with BA cadets on much lower salaries? In that instance I'd suspect you'd want BALPA to put a stop to it. The reason for scope agreements is to protect standards over the whole community, rather than allow cynical managers to constantly farm out work to the lowest bidders.

145qrh

14th Apr 2002, 18:43

Hand solo , your name says it all..

I agree with bral. Why should Ba pilots be allowed to impose a scope clause on an independent company?

If Ba pilots are worried then it shows that some of them have some common sense, unlike you.

Small aircraft that the regions require cannot support large salaries or inflated egos .

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 19:42

Indeed why should BA pilots be able to impose a scope clause on an independent company? I don't think they should and will welcome the day that BACE is a wholly independent company. Then they can have whatever aircraft they want. But whilst they're a wholly owned subsidiary flying in British Airways colours with BA flight numbers then their on our patch. This may amaze you, but BA has got to be succesful because of the hard work of its employees. Sure, the company got a lot of breaks after privatisation, but it didn't go the way of Olympic, or Sabena, did it? It is one of the biggest airlines in the world and it got there entirely due to the efforts of all the staff to ensure that BA is a reliable, punctual, high quality, safe and trusted airline. That position is in no small part due to the flying staff of BA who have invested their future in the company. It may further surprise you that in the regions BA pilots work under the hardest, most productive scheduling regimes in the company, as do the cabin crew, and many of the ground staff took a pay cut to ensure the bases had a future within BA and to fund 26 new A319s for the regions.

Then what do you know? After all that effort, Johnny-Come-Lately CitiExpress turn up and say 'I want your base, your routes, your aircraft, your customers, your brand and your opportunites. Why? Because I'm cheaper'. And that is the crux of the issue. You want the opportunites BA staff worked hard to build, whilst you've contributed nothing except an annual franchise fee. Its BA staff who built that network and its their right to expect access to the opportunities they've built for themselves. You want to fly a 100 seater? Then fine, call yourself BRAL, take the BA colours off your aircraft and go find your own customers. But whilst you cosy on in flying our livery and helping yourself to our customers then you can expect opposition from the BA pilot body. You may think your current airline is only temporary employment and one day you might hope to move onto bigger or better things elsewhere. Well there aren't many elsewheres left in the UK, and by opposing this creeping outsourcing to cheap labour we're trying to ensure that there are still better opportunities around for those who might want them, rather than working for peanuts 'cos the lowest bidder always wins.

climbs like a dog

14th Apr 2002, 20:26

Hand Solo, we currently have hot and cold running BA cadets joining our TP fleets. The message we're being fed is that we're all part of the same big happy BA group. Now, I've crossed swords with yourself and others on this in the past and was presented with the idea then that scope would be wonderful for us BACE chappies and that we should stop moaning and undercutting you and get on with it in our pokey little rat-hole of an airline. Well, I've come round to your way of thinking, at least on the undercutting bit, and I don't believe we should be paid any less than yourselves to operate these aircraft.

You seem irritated by our attitudes and desires. A couple of points. While some of us will walk on to bigger and better things, a lot of our pilots stay with company because they like their locality and aren't driven by a burning desire to fly heavier and faster aircraft. Also we were quite happily going along, paddling our own canoe. We didn't ask to be bought out by BA. There will also be an anomoly in that BACE pilots and BA pilots will be flying essentially a similar type, 146 v's RJ100 on two different sets of conditions. I can also say that this isn't an open invitation for you to pinch the 146 jobs for yourselves either.

We are told that the grown ups want these aircraft to be flown on the BACE cost-base. I'd be interested to see what part of this cost-base is made up of crew salaries. If the BA pilot body genuinely wanted to sort this problem out they would be discussing this with the BACE pilots and presenting a united front to our overall bosses. For those who say that it would be wrongto assimilate BACE, a precedent has been set by Cityflyer being fully absorbed into BA mainline. The simplest way of preventing your colleagues from having to relocate would be to have both sets of pilots flying on the same Ts and Cs. There is a genuine feeling in BACE that we're being shafted. While you snipe at us and treat us like second rate citizens isn't it any suprise that we really don't feel any solidarity with you or much sympathy with the predicament of your BAR colleagues?

brain fade

14th Apr 2002, 20:31

Hand.
Maybe i'm missing a trick here, and if so please explain. It seems to me that it was British Airways who created the franchises and not the franchise holders. the reason BA did this was so that routes which they could not make money on themselves (amongst the reasons for which is he large sums paid to (for example) BAR in salaries and of course allowances) could continue to be operated and maybe even make a buck for the lower cost franchise operator. roger so far?
Now that BA is even deeper in the doo-doo than it previously was, the steps it must take to stay in business are getting more extreme and its difficult to criticise them for getting BACE which lets face it, is very much part of BA now, to operate more and more aircraft and routes.
At least no one is getting 'let go' from the flight deck whereas there are large numbers of people around who are ex BA and looking for a new job. That could change if things don't improve.
While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think you can expect a lot of sympathy outside of BA. Could i just ask you tho' do you think BACE is too cheap? or do you think maybe you guys and gals are maybe just a bit too dear?:rolleyes:

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 20:50

Well by your post CLAD it seems we share some fairly similar viewpoints. I do not believe you are second class citizens. I do not believe you should be paid less than BA pilots for operating the same type. To have such a situation merely invites BACE to set up yet another subsidiary on lower pay still and then shaft you with it. Furthermore, I understand BALPA have ambitions to get BACE onto some form of seniority list/ T & Cs with BA mainline, though I suspect that BA management will fight tooth and nail to prevent that. I don't think anyone in BA thinks its wrong to assimilate BACE in the same way CFE were.

I can fully understand the desire not to move on to pastures new if you particularly enjoy being where you are. What does irk me is that some people seem to think BA pilots don't feel the same way. There are many people who've been in the regions for donkeys years and have no desire to move. BAs decision not to allow BA pilots to fly what are still BA (or CFE) aircraft means families are going to be uprooted and vast expenses are going to be incurred moving to the south east, whilst those who can't or won't move will see their quality of life ruined by endless commuting and lonely nights stuck in B&Bs in the LHR area. Unfortunately, this is usually overlooked as greedy nigel obviously only wants to hang on the aircraft for cash/ego purposes. What also irks is the occasional assertion by some people that they have a divine right to take BA work or aircraft as they are 'so much more efficient', a viewpoint which seems to stem more from envy than any actual knowledge.

You also seem to share my cynicism on the companies accounting practices! Its a standard BA technique to lay all failures at the door of the overpaid pilots (representing a huge 4% of all BAs costs as we do), and once again we see this technique being applied in the regions. My suspiscion is that very little of the overall running costs of BAR is attributable to flight crew, and my belief is that management are pulling a fast one in their crusade to reduce pilots pay to zero. It probably is the case that the RJ100 is a more economical aircraft to operate from the regional bases, but the wholesale transfer of these aircraft to BACE is part of a political rather than an economic agenda. Until we can improve your T & Cs to our levels, we are compelled to oppose the transfer to prevent our T&Cs being reduced to your levels because thats a lose - lose situation for both of us.

Brain fade - beware of falling into the BA propaganda trap that all blame rests at pilots salaries. BAs accounting is a nebulous beast. The franchises do pay a franchise fee, but what is that fee, and does it truly represent value for money for BA? We are told that franchises are cheaper, but who is paying for the customer service staff, the advertising and branding, the product development, the customer loyalty programs, the head office staff, the 24 hr telesales centre and website, and so on and so forth. Franchises do work well when you have a thin route that couldn't be operated by a BA aircraft - it provides access to passengers that we would otherwise not have. The problems arise when you suddenly have franchises operating aircraft that BA operate. Examples:

1. BA operates 120 seat A319s at BHX which sometimes have low utilitsation. On the next stand a franchise operates 120 seat 737 to Belfast? Best use of BA resources?

2. BA operates 767 to Baku and Almaty. BA decides it cannot make money so franchise takes over operating A320. One year later BA has burgeoning fleet of A320s that could operate Baku and Almaty but franchise still has route from the same base? Is this the best way to grow our network?

3. BA pulls off LGW-MPL route on a 737 as it can't turn a profit. The very next day franchise begins 737 LGW-MPL route. Said franchise is charged £300 for a 737 turnaround by BA ground handlers, the going rate. BA 737 is charged £1000 by same handlers for same turn around because it is a captive customer. Are inefficiencies in other parts of the company skewing the profitability of BAs flight ops?

These are just three examples of why it is just not possible to believe the figures which the company come out with to justify there franchising/outsourcing, call it what you will. I appreciate we must sound completely paranoid to outsiders, but BA BALPA are fighting a continous rear-guard action to fend off a string of managers who fiddle with flight crew careers while Rome burns around them.

Right well that was a long post, better go and take my pills now.

James Thin

14th Apr 2002, 21:24

Very predictable, Hand Solo. Your attitude is the usual one presented by BA mainline. Its not so much that your theory of wanting to maintain your Ts and Cs is wrong, it's just that your tenuous grasp on reality is insulting. If you look around the shorthaul route network, you will see an ever increasing amount of work being taken by the Lo Cost boys. This is not because the pax prefer their paint jobs, it is because they are CHEAPER.

At BRAL, MANX, CITIEXPRESS, whatever you wish to call us, we are cheaper, and much more profitable than BAR.

(Have BAR ever indeed been profitable?????)

So, if we don't take your business, (in RJs, Embs, or Fireball XL5), it's as sure as the pope is a Catholic that someone will. I have always regarded BA as being the benchmark for Airline Pilot salaries. I did when I was in the RAF, and I still do. The thing is though, unless you let common sense percolate into your attitude, you will end up like British Leyland, RootesGroup, the Coal Board, and many other industries where short sighted unions f###ed up the whole deal. Virgin, BMi, not to mention the Americans are just slavering at the chance to get more of a longhaul toehold, with the cheepies already two feet in the door in our business. Your response doesn't seem to acknowledge that somehow, our own business was amalgamated with BAR, and we instantly started issuing profit warnings.

I don't expect you to agree, far less understand - :rolleyes: - but get it through your head that if BAR costs are not lowered, there will BE no regional flying for anyone. Just look at what your airline did to CFE. A small operator, highly profitable airline, (just like us) was bought by BA, and put on BA Ts and Cs, and management practices. Do you have the ability to guess why those self same routes then started to lose money? Tricky really, isn't it, or is your opinion still that this was all propaganda started by the big bad management?

GET A LIFE!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Bendy Lady

14th Apr 2002, 21:35

Hand Solo

All you have said regarding the efforts of BAR flightdeck/cabin crew has been mirrored by us in Brymon/BRAL. Both airlines have come from very modest roots and with none of the technical/financial backing BAR receivied and have become extremely sucessful (both airlines posted profits close to ten million each before the mearger, I understand that BAR has not posted a profit for some time although I may be quite incorrect). The only reason BA issues franchise to the likes of us is to benefit themselves, many of the routes were already being operated extremely successfully by Brymon/BRAL. My experience of BAR certainly illustrated to me why it is running at a loss. The cabin crew are not resposible for security checking seat pockets etc (has to subcontracted) and do not open service doors etc! extraodinary! This was just a peek. Although I too do not wish to see reasonable Ts & Cs degraded we do have to remember that at the end of the day BA has to make money and it certainly isn't. We are extremely privelidged to enjoy this profession but it doesn't give us the right to dictate the future of a company while blindly motivated by personal gain.
My opinion, and it's your right to disagree!

Regards.

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 21:51

Doh! You've taken the management pill James, haven't you! Have you understood anything I've said? OK lets explain this in simple steps for you.

1) Nobody's making any money at the moment except the low fares airlines.

2) You are not a low fares airline. You are a low pay airline. They are not the same.

3) Your fares are high, which means your pax are also going to switch to low fares airlines. Add in the concerns about the economy and 911 and there's a profits warning for you. It may be coincidental that it occurred at the same time as BA taking over you, but such is life.

4) BAR is profitable and has been for some time. BHX is very profitable, MAN is suffering due to high costs associated with MAN airport and competition from Easy at LPL. The franchises aren't doing terribly well at MAN either.

5) You may be proud of 'taking our business'. You haven't taken it, it's been given to you by BA management. If your so proud of your Embraers ask the ground staff what the passengers think of them, and why so many prefer to change their flight time so that they can fly on a large aircraft. Without the RJs arriving they'd all defect to LH/AF/UK.

6) BA is not the benchmark for airline salaries. Starting today at a major airline your earnings would be far higher at Easy, Ryanair or Go, either as a CEP or DEP. Our pilots are paid below market rate, which is tacitly acknowledged by the BA board, who also extol to the City the virtues of the cheapest long-haul flight crew of any major airline in the western world.

7) BA is flying round full aircraft, with junior flight crew on market or below rates and senior flight crew operating the cheapest long haul operation going. Safely. Punctually. Reliably. What else would you like us to do?

8) BA pilots haven't been on strike for ages, which makes us entirely different from the defunct British monoliths you care to mention. Nor do we work to rule.

9) I don't expect you to agree , far less understand. Your pre-conceptions and stereotypes speak volumes. You do yourself a disservice by associating managerial and strategic failure with workforce wages. The guys at Easy, Go, Southwest et al are well rewarded and their companies go from strength to strength. Now that you have the BACE management team on board I'm sure you'll be the first to embrace their strategy of'work more, get less'. But only for you that is.

Next time you find yourself on board a BA aircraft, or catch up with your ex-RAF mates who flt for BA, why not ask them what its really like in the company. You might even learn something.

Further edit for facts:

Bendy Lady - BAR cabin crew don't check seat backs because the cleaners do it when they clean the aircraft. And a very good job of it they do whilst the cabin crew check the catering, carry out their own SEP checks and find a moment to eat. They don't open service doors because BA policy is that no aircraft doors are opened unless there's a platform in place outside. You may think this is daft, but when one of the caterers fell off a 319 last year he spend a very long time in intensive care. As stated above, BAR are profitable,I think £10 million profit in a recent year which is as much as Brymon.

bral - Great. Inverness is a perfect example of what happens when franchises work. The EOG RJ crew may be able to stay at LGW, but because of seniority issues arising from the merger the Captains are likely to lose their commands. The pilots at BHX/MAN are on mainline contracts, but they are not LHR based. They are regionally based and many have never operated out of LHR or have any desire to do so. There may be jobs available at LHR, but thats not where they're from or where they want to be. They too like the locality and have no desire for heavier or faster aircraft. There's probably an RJ job for you in the SW of England, but do you want to move there? Don't believe what the cabin crew tell you about allowances. £200 per night? You could get a whole cabin crew on a split duty for that, and although the allowances are higher, the basic pay is considerably lower. I don't think BALPA should necessarily stop you flying a 110 seater, but I don't think the company should be allowed to transfer 16 aircraft from the BA/CFE register to BACE just because they have an un-costed, 'finger in the air' feeling about it (I know you won't believe that but that was the stated basis of the decision for transferring RJs to MAN!). If you think thats OK, then tell me why we shouldn't transfer the entire embraer fleet to a low-paying air taxi operator? After all, there's work for you elsewhere and it'll improve the companies bottom line.

Charter Lad

14th Apr 2002, 22:01

BRAL, You have hit the nail on the head,it is not Pilot costs that are the problem,it is CC costs.However BA Pilot management have not got the balls to tell Rod that we are not the problem and to get CC costs under control,they just tell us we have to do our bit to contribute to cost cutting and that means BACE flt deck even though BA flt deck adds neglibly to the overall costs.

Big Nose

14th Apr 2002, 22:20

We seem to have forgotten that until very recently these 150 pilot jobs on the RJ were outside BA with a 'Regional Operator' paying much lower salaries than BA. It is more than a little specious to now claim BA are 'losing 150 pilot jobs to the Regions'. I'll bet the pilots taken in from CityFlyer are laughing all the way to the bank whilst it is quite clear that no BA pilot is going to lose his job as BA will very soon be short of pilots.

what's it doing now?

14th Apr 2002, 22:33

Firstly, I would like hold out an olive branch to our BACE colleagues who DO indeed work very hard and offer a good, safe service. The problems that we of BAR have are not our fellow pilots who, like ourselves, are mere pawns in the game that is called BA. We are all just trying to earn a living. The changes that are taking place in the regions are golden opportunities for BACE people and I can't blame them for taking them. So I don't think it's right that we play into management's hands and squabble amongst ourselves.

I hope that BALPA can work out a deal which allows us all to work where we want, on the aircraft we want. I see no need for BA pilots to have a pay cut. I see every need for BACE pilots to get a pay rise. Same job and responsibility so same pay.

The same goes for the cabin crew. Although BAR do have a few who have fossilized on a 6 and 3 pattern for far too long, eating bacon sandwiches in the crew room at BA's expense and then complaining about how hard done by they are, a large majority (not large because of too much bacon mind you), are a credit to their uniform. Why shouldn't all the cabin crew receive equal remuneration?

The engineers are another group who are suffering. BAR's engineers are largely cutting grass at MAN or staffing the telephone call centre now. Surely we can come together and use these highly skilled people to great advantage for the airline. We owe them that much after their care over the years, in keeping us all safe.

I guess that all I am trying to say is let's work together as best we can. Be civil and realize that we are all doing the best we can under difficult circumstances. RJ100 people particularly may have to move to the regions and BAR people may/will move south (and contrary to popular belief, we don't want to move, big jets or not).

I don't know how productive this submission will be, but I for one, and I know of many more, hold no grudges against the BACE pilots/cabin crew/engineers et al.

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 22:34

Well thats one way of looking at it Big Nose, but then another way is to say thats 150 well paid pilots jobs up the swanney, to be replaced by 150 less well paid jobs. If they'd stayed in BA somebody would have to have to crew those aircraft, which may have hastened the BACE 146 pilots getting on the BA terms, or could have provided a better paid job for someone whose redundant right now. Furthermore the CFE guys are being forced off an aircraft they may not want to leave and will be faced with touring out of a remote base on a dying fleet. They'll need to undertake a conversion course, which means a costly two month break from flying allowances, and the Captains are likey to lost their commands as they lack the seniority to bid for a command on any other type. Hardly a laughing matter for those guys.

I'll second the above comments on BAR cabin crew. There are a few around who are a waste of space, and there some around on quite a bit of dosh who would be worth every penny of it and more on a long haul aircraft if the company would let them go. Most of the rest just smile and get on with it on a basic of £9K pa and 2-300 quid of allowances in a good month if they're lucky. I was struggling to live on that sort of cash 10 years ago!

Hand Solo

14th Apr 2002, 23:15

Dunno who told them that but it doesn't fit with BA P&P rules. They're not even close to senior enough for a command on any type and once you throw in a conversion course all bets are off. Its regrettable but the word on the street is that they're headed for the right hand seat.

overstress

14th Apr 2002, 23:43

Yup, Hand Solo is right. RHS is all they will get.

Nosferatu

15th Apr 2002, 08:20

Much, in some ways, as it grieves me to admit it, Bignose is right, as are BRAL, BENDYLADY, James Thin and others. Hand Solo, you may or may nor not have some correct info, but without a certified accountant checking the whole of the BA cost structure we will never know. What we DO know is that some trimming is required, and Rod is busy at that. The trimming he's instituting has so far been seen by the markets as far too little too late - so think what it might have been like if he had REALLY addressed the problem.

Secondly, look around you. I don't see the 50 odd Cathay guys taken back yet. I don't see all the BMi 146 guys getting a good deal over their somewhat questionable sudden redundancy; yet you seem to have the mindset someone referred to as typical mainline, and sadly it is. Raise your eyes over the dashboard mate, there's a real world out there, and sh*t happens!!:eek:

I note your concerns are not for your cadet colleagues who are now flying with us (BACEX) and who have taken a far greater percentile "hit" on remuneration than the LGW or Regional guys you are discussing. To a man, they all appear to be very glad they have jobs. BALPA is not what it was ever perceived to be, (sadly in some respects) and there are very few of us in this current Blairite post-MajorThatcher era who could afford to take all the risks associated with a strike. Most of us, frankly across the industry, think we are pretty fortunate to have jobs at all post September.
(not to mention post joining the loss making BAR - Profitmaking, don't talk rubbish, BHX to a small degree, the rest a thumping huge loss, as you know well!!)
So why not accept this is going to happen, that Scope is NOT going to happen, and wait for the inevitable market upturn, and pilot shortage when we (as pilots) will be in a much stronger position to improve EVERYONE'S Ts and Cs. That, if you think about it, was how BA achieved their current status. It was certainly NOT by lemming like action in the middle of an industry downturn!
:o :o

Pandora

15th Apr 2002, 08:24

Hand Solo,
Except for a late appearance by Overstress you are the single BA pilot trying to explain why this is bad for everyone involved in the long run. As another BA pilot I applaud your effort. It is extremely short-sighted to say 'I'm alright, Jack' because it merely opens up the way for BA to franchise out to lower and lower paying companies until someone gets the bright idea of making pilots work for free if they want to do the job so much. In the meantime the reduction in T and Cs doesn't do anything for the pax who pay the same for a ticket regardless of who is operating the flight.
I'm trying to be succinct because I think Hand has made a very rational argument so that's all from me.

snooky

15th Apr 2002, 08:49

I agree with pandora, Hand Solo is the only one talking sense here.

It's understandable that Citi Express pilots want to fly these bigger aircraft, but as I said before, overall this will only result in the same jobs being less well paid in the long run, and ultimately the very people advocating that they should get the work may be the very ones who end up less well off.

Don't be misled into thinking that paying the pilots less is likely to make any difference as to whether the operation is or is not profitable. On a 100+ seat aircraft, the pilot costs are such a small proportion of total operating costs that the difference between a BACE type pay and mainline pay will be negligable in overall operating terms.

As to whether BAR is or is not profitable, that is up to what the accountants wish to show.

Big Kahuna Burger

15th Apr 2002, 09:34

Good on you Hand Solo.

Have you honestly thought about what has been suggested, regarding routes being handed down. How would you feel if your employer did that. ?? And not just once or twice.

Nosferatu:
Its as simple as this.
Give ANYTHING away in your T & C's, and you will NEVER see it again. End pf story. Doesnt matter if there is a pilot shortage (thats old chesnuts been around since about '92 hasnt it?) or not, once the management has succeeded in screwing the line bods out of something, why on earth should they give it back?

White Knight

15th Apr 2002, 09:55

Funny what everyone else seems to know....

As an RJ skipper at LGW I can categorically say that no-one has been told anything regards commands, fleet changes etc etc....

For those that don't know EOG is no more having officially ceased to be on the 31st March. And on the subject of T's and C's when is Gatwick going to get the same as the Heathrow crews - we all do the same job for the same company after all. Especially in the light of EOG being no more.

By the way Big Nose - I wish I was laughing all the way to the bank, but life is very expensive in the south east and what with Gordon about to increase taxes and all that !!

:( :( :(

Hand Solo

15th Apr 2002, 11:30

Nosferatu - I don't really think you are aggrieved to 'admit' that your colleagues are right. BA does need trimming, a lot of it, and quickly too. So why aren't we getting rid of all those expensive pilots? Is it because they know their requirements for flight crew almost to a man (no pencil and paper stuff here, we're talking big computer processes)? Is it because with natural wastage they know they're going to be short of flight crew soon and there's no slack left in the system to work them harder? Is it because the only way to solve that problem is to eliminate BA flying positions rather than hire new people? If Rod had really addressed the problem we'd have 10000 fewer support staff still for the same number of flight crew, just like Lufthansa.

Your concern for our CEPs is noble, and I'm sure they appreciate a flying job, but have you considered that there are now 150 fewer positions for them in BA? Without scope who's to say that we won't continue down this line? Then there might not be jobs for them for years, and that will really hit them in the pocket. Yeah there's a real world out there, and bad things happen, but don't go overboard with the 'lucky to have a job' line. We're lucky to be born healthy, we're lucky to live in a civilised country, we're lucky we're not starving african children. How little will you accept before you start thinking 'Perhaps I'm lucky, but this stinks', because thats the level management are trying to find and thats what they'll pay you if they can.

As to your point about the profitabilty of BAR, there you are simply passing off fiction as fact. BAR overall has been profitable in recent years. Simple fact. BAs version of the accounts are available, go and look them up if you have time. The RJ move does not guarantee profitability in the regions. There has been no business case made , no cost analysis has been done. The move is a political whim and nothing more. Scope will happen and needs to happen to set the bottom line. Don't fool yourself that a pilot shortage will push up your wages. Easy and Ryanair are offering big wedge to those who'll join, so why aren't your wages going up this year? When did BA ever achieve its T&Cs like that? When its crews were paid better than market rate the company said 'Can only afford market rate'. Now they paid less than market rate its 'We can't afford to pay any more'. The firm won't pay you a penny more than they can get away with, and if you demand a fairer salary then it's up to them to work out which area of gross waste and inefficency to tackle to find the funds.

Shadowpurser

15th Apr 2002, 12:47

White Knight we've all wanted that at EOG for years. Our cabin crew manager (Rod Wilcox) told us straight last year "You will NEVER earn LHR pay rates here at EOG/EFG, if you want those T&C's and rates, transfer when the opportunity comes". Simple as that:( .

Just a quick observation everyone. I can see this is an emotive issue for everyone. But Hand Solo does seem very well informed on a wide variety of issues to do with B.A. , his comments are constructive, sensible, well-structured, and thought out. (On all issues he posts on PPRUNE). While some of you let your emotions get in the way when your posting (I'll put my hand up to it too), he doesn't resort to lowering the tone or attacking people personnally unlike some. What he says about B.A. taking stuff away and not giving it back is true.

Guys... "The enemy" is not BAR, BACE,Brymon,EOG, or Mainline B.A. pilots or cabin crew - it's B.A.'s management and the way it's opperating and making us opperate!! I want to see the company come back to profit and will give 200% on whatever contract they give me, but we need to keep what do have at least or we'll have very little.

We've all got to stick together - we're all doing the same job, just on different contracts and T&C's - annoying as that is - I can't see it changing unless we all stick together!!

Keep up the posts Hand!! I'm learning a lot!!!

http://www.usapublishing.com/images/london/british_air_logo.gif

If we the staff pull together we might just be able to be this again.

Freddy Forks

15th Apr 2002, 13:26

All this squabbling. You lucky, lucky people. All I want is a job. I lost my job in December last year. ATP rated and the only company in the uk who operate them is BACE. But no chance of a job there-already been rejected a few months ago. Tell me, the cadets that are streaming into BACE are they operating the ATP.

Let me tell you once again how lucky you are.

Chilli Ray

15th Apr 2002, 15:38

So will there be any hiring for these RJ's once they hit the regions? BA, Citi Express or what ever, does anyone know if there are likely to be any jobs for those currently unemployed?

Bendy Lady

15th Apr 2002, 18:09

Chilli Ray

definately no direct hiring on to any fleet, new guys will be taken from a holding pool (filled by those who applied to the flight international ad and past interview etc).

Deadleg

15th Apr 2002, 19:08

BACE (Ex-Brymon).I've read some of the posts with a real feeling of despair.I realize that sometimes emotions run high, but the contempt and lack of respect for fellow professionals being displayed at times has been dreadful(and it has been shown by both sides).

Divide and conquer seems to be the management ethos at the moment.Can I respectfully recommend that we don't fall for it!

bar none

15th Apr 2002, 19:28

As an interested observer, I cannot understand how employees of various BA divisions allow themselves to fall for the oldest trick in the book......divide and conquer.

Whether you like it or not, you all work for the same company, no matter which division or agreement you belong to. Surely the idea of going to work is to achieve the best remuneration possible so why are some employees trying to drag their collegues down to the lowest level. That is managements job.

Management will try to achieve this by quoting what they want to quote to achieve a result. Thus the Brymon division was far more efficient and profitable than BAR. Anybody could be if they were allowed to regularly cancel flights at short notice due little or no infrastructure in the way of standby crews,aircraft or technical support and then just hand over the ensuing mess to BA and BAR ground staff to sort out and pay for.

Stick together boys and girls.....it is the only way forward

Capt Pit Bull

15th Apr 2002, 21:28

Without wishing to get embroiled in this whole arguement, can I just insert some hard facts as regards the ex-CFE flight crew:

Firstly, as regards to our future prospects. To echo White Knight, we have been told precisely nothing about what will be happening to us. To be sure, there is plenty of rumour control, but we have recieved no information from management whatsoever. Which frankly, given that a key point in the FS&S briefing was 'regular communication from management', is deplorable. Not only has no information been forthcoming, but nobody will even suggest a timescale for when that situation might change. Pathetic.

My limited understanding of these things is that how we are handled depends on how the demise / move of the RJ is classified, as apparently different rules apply. So when Bidding closed (coincidentally today) we don't even know what set of rules we are bidding under. Pathetic.

Secondly, once again the myth that CFE paid poorly. I can state absolutely categorically that many of us require personal differentials to prop up our salary to BA levels. The pay is frozen (which in real terms means a gradual paycut) until BA payscales catch up. In mine and several other cases, demise of our training roles (as the functions transfer to Cranebank) now leaves us with a lower salary in absolute terms. In my case thats quite substantial, although I will admit that it is protected for a year. But in 12 months time, and for another 2 or 3 years therafter, my basic will be less that it was at CFE. Fortunately, better allowances will make good most of the shortfall, but the cost of those allowances is having to do multiple day tours.

And of course, I can expect a drop in those allowances once I am kicked out of the LHS as now appears inevitable.

So basically as far as I'm concerned BA can take their wonderful conditions and insert them in a place where there is a distinct lack of incoming solar radiation. Sideways. Minus vaseline.

Happy Teddy.

Magplug

16th Apr 2002, 09:43

It was the cruellist quirk of fate and BA mismanagement that saw CFE absorbed into EOG swiftly followed by the announcement to move the aircraft to the regions.

However it must be said that the RJ is a godawfull aircraft for the punters that is cramped, uncomfortable and slow. For sectors under an hour it is bearable with the current (charter) seating density but to fly it further afield - No thanks. What is more the Club accomodation & product is very much below the standard offered elsewhere in BA for punters who are paying top dollar.

These guys (CFE) were doing fine feeding off the brand but it was decided the brand had become too diluted so we know what happened next. It was an enormous commercial mistake incorporating this operation into BA mainline.

Having said all that we are stuck with the problems of the Status Quo. In their first 5 years the Flight Crew can be directed anywhere at the behest of BA. As for the LHS>RHS situation your current salary becomes preserved until the new scale catches up - at least that is the agreement.

Perhaps someone might correct me but I understand a number of exCFE skippers do not have the BA experience requirements for command in BA ???

Worst case scenario for ex-CFE is that BA turn around and say;

1. Here's your relocation package i.a.w agreements
2. Your current salary is frozen/preserved
3. Your contract of employment is hereby transferred to BACE MAN/BHX

All totally legal and i.a.w. current agreements (bar the contract transfer of course).

This will naturally be against BALPA's wishes but since when did BALPA dictate BA's commercial strategy? That of course would be the principle submission in court when BA sought to get any strike declared illegal.

As for BACE - you guys are working for a wholly owned subsidiary of BA - like-it-or-not. If you are happy to work like the proverbial then good luck, but some of the posts above seem to say:

'I work longer and harder for BACE and I get paid a lot less and I'm really proud of it'

'Scuse me if I sit here scratching my head :confused:

Secret Squirrel

16th Apr 2002, 13:05

Good defence Hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, however, but don't BAR/BACE already have 100+ seater aircraft in the form of 146's. Therefore it's a bit late in the day to start SCOPE clauses. The RJ has no place in London but it does in the regions. I don't want to fly in the regions under any contract. No offence, boys but my life is here. So, scope or no scope those 150 jobs are still going to stay in LGW/LHR and other people higher up the seniority list than us are still going to have their nose put out of joint because some of us will be directed to LHR. Which, my cynical self tells me has a lot to do with it.

All this to-ing and fro-ing serves little purpose because if LGW hasn't managed to secure parity with LHR in ten years then you are living in a dreamworld if you think BA will ever acceed to your outrageous (even if noble!) demands over 16 RJ's.

As WK and others have said, nothing re commands has been finalised and I have to say to Magplug and others who commented confidently that we would all lose our commands "Of course! " it's a poxy way to treat us.

WHY?

Well let's look at the case history shall we. CFE were offered a number of routes before the merger and all hell broke lose using phrases not unlike the ones used here. The BA Knights were out in force defending T&C's in the name of the average pilot. Basically, the argument went something like this:

"CFE aircraft/pilots should not do BA routes because it takes away jobs from BA pilots and it wears away T&C's blah, blah, blahdy blah." Fine, so where do you now stand when Captains and SFO's say that if BA are going to use other aircraft to do routes previously flown by CFE we should keep our commands and to a certain extent the prospects for them (for SFO's). (I'd like to see how good Balpa are at standing their ground on your behalf if all 17 RJ TRI's handed in their sim keys simultaneously unless they were promised commands at the end of all their efforts! Idea for you there WK!....)

Are you telling us that you want your cake and that you want to eat it? OK, I accept that but you have just been exposed as everything you have been called in this thread by outsiders and all this rubbish you are spurting behind your burnished steel helmet, banner in hand atop your high horse is also going to sound rather hollow to our colleagues up north, as it does to me.

In my year at BA I have to say that all my new colleages that I have met in Jubly are sterling chaps but all this talk of unity and calls to arms are tosh and selfishly driven. Personally, I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA if I take up a much awaited LH slot or command on a 737 because despite what any of you say; it's every man/woman for themselves, believe me.

I do apologise for the attitude (not) but you people bring it upon yourselves.

Magplug

16th Apr 2002, 14:18

SS I agree thoroughly. The point about the LHR/LGW is a fine illustration that the company will seek to preserve ANY possible differential wherever it exists.

Please don't take the meaning from my previous post that I am confident that you will lose your command. Quite the opposite in fact...

The company would rather slit their corporate wrists than pay you a Captain's salary to sit in the RHS

As I said before the LHR senior hoards and BLA..PA may have their agenda but look at the economic realities of our situation. I am confident in a corps of this many pilots there will be a 'middle-ground' solution.

Capt Pit Bull

16th Apr 2002, 14:50

Actually Magplug, I'm not really sure that is the worst case scenario.

I don't want to move up north. But if I absolutely positively have to fly out of MAN or BHX then so be it. The company can relocate myself, Mrs & Miss Pit Bull and we'll move up there and get on with it.

Trouble is, one of the more feasable sounding rumours floating around is that the company doesn't want to cough up to relocate anyone, they'd rather we positioned (by a/c to Man, by bus to BHX) and then live out of a hotel for 6 days, repeat ad infinitum, or for a year or two until BACE crew trained up or whatever. So from (1 year ago) being in a job where I was away from home for single nights at worst, Myself and family can look forward to a lot of time apart.

Now doubtless many are thinking a year or two isn't that long, pitbulls got lots of time left in BA to rake in the goodies later on. I.E. "Jam Tomorrow". Thats not how I see it. I've been flying for 19 years, I reckon I'm due for some jam today. And 2 years is a long time when miss pitbull is only 2.

Management had better realise there is some deep anger building in the ex-CFE community. We accepted a lot of stuff during the integration with a feeling of inevitability. Now we are being asked to take a lot more. Managements attitude seems to be that we've taken it before, we'll take it again. Presumably they have forgotten about the proverbial straw and the camels back. Only in this case its not so much of a straw as a lorry load of Iron Girders dropped from a great height.

Its even reached the stage of graffitti threatening physical harm to a certain manager. Whilst I would never condone physical violence in labour relations, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if somebody loses their rag and plants one on him.

For myself, if push comes to shove, BA had best appreciate that if they force me to choose between my family and my job, BA will lose in a heartbeat.

CPB

Hand Solo

16th Apr 2002, 16:00

I think Pit Bull has hit the nail on the head with the companys current plans to tour RJ crews through the regions. Given their statement that there are no roles for BA pilots in the new BACE RJ operation, I think they'd do their level best to avoid paying relocation for a move north only to have to pay it again two years later for a southbound move.

Squirrel - BACE do operate 146s with 100+ seats and I don't suppose any scope agreement would require them to surrender those, it's just that they wouldn't be able to buy any more 100+ seat aircraft. 99 seats fine, 101 seats not fine. After all, whats to stop management handing over the 737-500s or A318s next? Under current management all BA jobs are going to be at LGW/LHR because there won't be any regional bases. That won't prevent the company trying to tour you through the regions though. I wouldn't get too hung up with your suspiscion that people think you're going to be jumping the seniority list at LHR in some way. Junior people have been joining long haul fleets for donkeys years and its just accepted because type freezes or insufficient hours prevent more senior people moving. If you wish to go long haul with low seniority then your situation is no different to that of a DEP and I'm certainly not envious of it.

snooky

16th Apr 2002, 16:04

I can fully sympathise with your predicament CPB. City Flyer pilots are the latest in a long line to have their family lives severely disrupted by BA mismanagements feeble attempts to cut costs.

In reality few if any of these attempts have actually saved them anything. In most cases, if not all, the disruption caused to those involved has only added to BAs overall costs. I am thinking here of what happened to Highland Division, then later to the Scottish mainline base, and finally to Manchester and Birmingham.

In the case of Manchester and Birmingham I understand that a good business case was put forward for these bases to continue, but those making the decision chose to ignore it because they "had a feeling" that closure was best.

I wonder if they realise the cost of having disgruntled pilots? I very much doubt it.

climbs like a dog

16th Apr 2002, 20:43

I don't think anyone in BACX is saying that we are paid peanuts and proud of it, or at least they shouldn't.

Quite a few people on this thread are talking about divide and conquer. Surely the non-involvement by BA BALPA with BACX BALPA in scope discussions is fuelling this problem. It won't go away either. What of any future regional aircraft? The Embraer 170/190 will go from 70 seats up to 110+. This lack of communication between the two pilot groups plays into BA management's hands and helps neither group.

Land ASAP

16th Apr 2002, 23:24

This whole subject is one very close to my heart and I was initially a little disappointed that I have stumbled across it so late in the day. What I can say is that Hand Solo has voiced quite coherently the issue of how much 'fudging' goes on in this wonderful company that is BA, I take my hat off to you.

The whole SCOPE issue may be shrouded in rhetoric by BALPA regarding the number of seats (100+) and the theft of 'our routes', but fundamentally what all this boils down to is pilot shortages.

When (and if) the day ever arrived, where BA were finding it a little tricky to attract new pilots into its ranks as quick as they were retiring, then that would be the day when BALPA would have the ultimate law of supply and demand on their side.

300 or so senior Captains retired in the financial year just gone. A year ago BA faced a severe shortage of pilots and elected to buy CFE. One of the unspoken advantages of such a purchase was the inheritance of a large community of pilots that would ease the looming crisis of pilot shortages. The BACE/BAR transfer (and as a complication the insult that Ex-CFE crews are to help wind it down) is another short term fix for the pilot shortage.

I hope you all see my point. If the pilot shortages were to have occurred more markedly due to a comprehensive SCOPE agreement, then BA would have had to make its DEP rates more attractive to those that were needed to replace the bulge of retirees. With a large exodus of labour from so called 'feeder airlines' to BA, to plug this gap the 'feeders' would have had to consequently raise their rates to retain their pilots. WE WOULD ALL WIN.

So to all BALPA members, whether you are in Big Airways or outside, remember the favourite phrase of my superiors
"We pay you market rate why are you complaining?"

Let's all work together to make this 'market rate' a better one.

HomerJSimpson

17th Apr 2002, 10:09

Secret Squirrel, regarding your comment I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA
Many of us in BA unlike yourself I might add went through a system that we call selection. As an ex-cadet and having gone through this I find your comment somewhat insulting. I don't begrudge you being a part of BA it was not your choice, but to then insult those who got in the HARD way without the luxury of bypassing a very tough selection procedure is not on. You won't do yourself or your colleagues any favors with that attitude. If I was in your situation I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. I hope everything works out for you all, but equally I don't wish to see more senior pilots disadvantaged in the process.

Magplug

17th Apr 2002, 10:49

I wonder how many times I have read on this forum:

'I wouldn't work for BA if you paid me'

Funny how times change :)

Capt Pit Bull

17th Apr 2002, 18:33

HomerJ,

I find your attitude somewhat disagreeable. Specifically, this issue of the selection process and that somehow the ex-CFE community can not really consider itself as being 'proper' BA pilots due to not having done it.

Just take a step back and look at it from my point of view. I'm sitting here and imagining the future. A future in which HomerJSimpson, or someone of similar viewpoint, might have an important say in my future. For example, say you become management and have to interview a selection of candidates for a training position.

Is the fact that I originated from CFE going to be held against me? Even if you don't consciously think so, the way I read your post, and several other 'proper' BA pilots over the last 2 years, your prejudice against us can be seen protruding between the lines.

Is our background going to blight the rest of our careers? Because that's what it looks like to me. And it fills me with despair. Any time anyone feels like it, they'll just reach into the closet of history and just whip out the "you didn't do the selection procedure, you're not worthy" arguement. I made this point in the various arguements last year, and sure enough here we are, 1 year later, and you're doing it.

To reiterate a point I made last year, the purpose of a selection process is to assess suitability for training. All ex CFE pilots have completed at least 1, more usually 2, and sometimes 3 type ratings in a BA approved and audited training system. I say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Not to mention the fact that CFE had a selection process as well, which many individuals have failed. By way of a specific example, my sim partner on the ATR back in '96 failed the CFE training, but subsequently passed BA selection.

Should I consider BA cadets arriving on my fleet as being suspect because thay have not passed a CFE selection? Of course not.

I don't want to get into a Pythonesque "When I were a lad" speech, but the point is that there is no question that the CFE mob are a tried and tested group of pilots and deserve to be considered as such.

As far as SSs comments go, why not ask yourself why his bracketed point of view has given way to the unbracketed? Whats made him change?

Think about my point of view. I was quite happy based at LGW flying the RJ, on my 5 year type freeze. The lack of seniority, whilst insulting, was of little immediate practical concern because of the freeze. I wouldn't have presumed to displace someone from 'proper' BA from a seat they wanted because I didn't need to. And neither (I would think) did SS.

But if it reaches the point where its down to me or somebody from BA proper to get a choice job, then as I understand it, depending on how the surplus is declared on the shrinking RJ fleet, I may recieve preference. Should that happen, here will be my feelings:

If the displaced individual joined pre '96 (i.e. has been in the group longer) then I'll feel a measure of guilt, combined with the hope that the individual gets their desired post at the soonest opportunity.

If the displaced individual joined the BA group after me, then I'll just view it as a rightful reclamation of unfairly witheld seniority, take the job and not bat an eyelid.

All I want to do is fly LHS out of LGW. I've been doing the former for 4 years, and the latter for 6 years. I fail to see why recent joiners to the BA group via the 'proper' selection procedure, should expect to displace me. If the RJ is going, I expect LHS on whatever replaces it in the shorthaul role, be it 737 next year or A320 series later. Seniority be damned.

CPB

Land ASAP

17th Apr 2002, 19:04

You will find that provided you have the hours (3500 at the last count) the 750 or so CEP's above you on the master seniority list that don't have the minimum hours will have to watch you take the LHS of the RJ's replacement. Grandfather rights will not happen just like they didn't happen when the ATP bases were shut down. You need to be less divisive and more practical (ask BOAC about injustice re Dan Air, perhaps he may guide you to less embittered pastures)

Please do not wander too far down the particularly conspiratorial path by suggesting that your ex CFE history may act against you in future interviews for training positions as you are undermining your more valid points.

Lance Rootem

17th Apr 2002, 19:23

Shouldn't worry at all, judging by some of the muppets in trainer/checker jobs. "If in doubt... promote them!":rolleyes:

Capt Pit Bull

17th Apr 2002, 20:33

I'm not interested in comparison between CFE and Dan Air. Those arguements have all be done, I see no point in reiterating.

Essentially, Land ASAP, you seem to saying that future injustices are acceptable because in the past worst injustices occured? If that viewpoint is common, then heaven help all of us.

The training job was just meant to be an example. The point remains however that there is a body of feeling, expressed by amongst others HomerJ, that ex-CFE pilots are not proper members of the BA pilot community as a whole.

That is divisive.

And it is being divided and treated as second class citizens (e.g. the recent 'X-mas' Bonus, or lack therof), that manifests itself in the feelings of unhapiness as evidenced by myself and SS.

Our attitudes are symptoms, not the cause.

CPB

zzz

17th Apr 2002, 20:54

Cpb,

just to get my facts straight, what year did BA buy CFE?

cheers

zzz

HomerJSimpson

17th Apr 2002, 20:56

Capt Pitbull

I don't see anyone in CFE as being any less of a pilot than the rest. A few I suspect but not all ex-CFE would have been quite happy to remain as CFE and completely seperate from BA. I think i'm probably correct in saying that most are chuffed to bits. I know that the ones I have spoken to are. The opportunities now are far greater than they would ever have been. If I was a low experienced pilot outside of BA in my first job with an airline and then hey-presto I have a seniority number in BA, I would think Chritmas had come. I agree that it seems odd that a low experience co-pilot can be more senior than a captain, but thats only on paper, if you ever fly together your still the boss. It's going to be a long and bitter career for you if you can't just accept that you are now a number and join the queue like everyone else has.

P.S. correct me if i'm wrong but CFE didn't become wholly owned by BA until just a couple of years ago. Where does 1996 come into the equation?

Oh and by the way I also don't qualify for the Xmas holiday payment.

wwIIace

18th Apr 2002, 09:10

BA FD still view ex CFE as second class wannabbees, no offence, just a newy with aspirations to join BA, and in through the back door what ever way you look at it.

Magplug

18th Apr 2002, 09:27

CPB I know you find yourself in an unfortunate position and you have many words of sympathy above. Perhaps you should focus on a few harsh realities from the BA mainline perspective.

- There are 7500ish professional pilots in the UK
- About 3500 work for BA
- Up to about 2 years ago BA had the best T&C of any operator in UK and was the employer of choice at the top of any CV list.

- Every CEP position was sought by literally thousands of hopefuls.

- High calibre type-rated DEP candidates were attracted from other airlines as well as pilots ex HM Forces.

- CFE was at that time one of the lowest paid scheduled operators in the country (perhaps THE lowest) and was obliged to draw it's recruits from comensurately lower down the food chain.

Now I am no advocate of BA selection but one wonders just how many of our new colleagues were turned down by BA at application or during selection. OK not 100% applied but I would suggest only a small minority did not for domestic or age reasons.

So when CFE became instantly incorporated into the fold the Selectors immediately threw up their arms in disgust and went home, having wasted the last X years of their time.

Having been handed a BA seniority number on a plate was extremely fortuitous for you and I wish you only the best.

I understand from your earlier post that you took 2 years to command in CFE, please forgive me if that is incorrect. You appear to think that a simple direction to a Command on 737/Airbus will be benignly recieved by the mainline pilot corps?

Or having to jump through a few hoops to retain a training appointment onto another fleet?

On behalf of those who sweated and grafted their way through succesful selection and training I can tell you have seriously misjudged the mood.

next in line

18th Apr 2002, 13:26

Hand Solo,

I have not read such a lot of common sense on Pprune for a long time - congratulations!!

I get a little frustrated when some BACE pilots refer to the RJs as 'our 'planes'; what tosh - they are all owned by BA. BA wants them flown as cheaply as possible and if they could get a load of non Nationals to do it at non National rates they would be delighted.

BA refuses to have ALL the BACE pilots on the same list as BA. I agree that I have heard that the BA reps are offering access to the BA Master Seniority List and to share the 146/RJ opportunities. It would seem reasonable for BACE pilots to have exclusive access to the RJ/146s they are bringing to BACE and for BA mainline pilots to have the same rights to the 16RJs being transferred with both communities sharing in any extra RJs.

It is alleged that the BACE captains are preventing any agreement at the expense of the BACE FOs. A correspondent is correct; many of the CE captains are quite happy with what they are doing but many of the FOs want access to the greater BA variety and salaries. It's the FOs who should be telling their reps what they want, not the other way round.

Anyway, it may be for a temporary period only. I am informed that BA wants rid of all the RJ/146s and replaced with new 50/70 seat Embraers/Dorniers so BACE pilots will be flying all of them without any access to the mainline list whatsoever, if they are not careful!

JW411

18th Apr 2002, 13:48

In my long and happy flying career, I have never ceased to be amazed at what a happy and united bunch of chaps we have in BA.

I really have been very lucky for I have never had to work for BA or Saudia. I was one of the early chaps to be offered a place at Hamble but I had a serious outbreak of common sense and joined the Royal Air Force instead. I probably didn't earn so much money but I had a hell of a lot more fun. I've made up for the money bit since in my civilian career.

If you BA chaps stopped tearing chunks out of one another you could actually have a good thing going for you. Be nice to one another!

JIM JAM

18th Apr 2002, 14:04

Just to let you know that we all don't feel as miffed as CPB - I am pleased as punch to be given the fantastic opportunity to be able to fly for BA - I know the companys going through a bit of a low at the moment but I really feel if we stop this completely pointless bickering and pull together instead of apart we might actually get somewhere. Hand - Keep up the good work!!

Peter Skellan

18th Apr 2002, 18:16

This thread clearly re-illustrates for many flight crew why working for BA is a bad idea if one discounts remuneration.

Ignoring pay this company has cabin crew who hate flight crew with management that hate them all. The front line all works to support a bloated management that manage very little for a lot of money. The unions frustrate any move to obviously required change.

Oh what a lovely company to spend 12 duty hours a day in. Not.

Never underestimate the value of going to work in a company where the manaement are nice enough and the cabin crew are a happy enthusiastic bunch. Add in an FO who likes working for the company and is keen for his readily obtainable Command and you have aeroplane heaven.

Turning to BA T&C's - well take a 25 year old BA FO who has just one fleet change to widebody and compare her to 25 year old starter in easyJet. Factor in the LHR vs LUT house price and over a career to 60 the person working for Stelios will be better off. Dissregarding the easyJet share scheme.

The BA pension is only a promise. It can be broken. The pension one can get personally cannot. The pay differential compensates.

BA is FUBAR'd for future SERIOUS recruitment unless they improve their T&C's.

Which I think they will do. Shortly.

PS

The Little Prince

18th Apr 2002, 19:26

You may as well recognise reality Hand Solo, HomerJ and the like. We already operate 146s, and if you truly think BA management will have a fleet partly operated by high cost mainline guys, and partly by us profitable dudes, you really.......must have passed the BA Lego test.

You chaps really do live in another galaxy don't you? It's easy to see how much CRM and Leadership, community spirit etc etc you have by the way you have Secret Squirrel and Capt. PB reacting. Your well known patronising attitude is merely amusing, -
(some of us were instructing on fast jets when you had trainer wheels on your bicycle!)
- but sad.

Grow up and smell the roses. BALPA will not even squeak over the ex CFE blokes currently flying the RJs. They will sell them down the river over some sort of deal for the 'real' mainliners. We WILL have the RJS, and I'll wager that those of CFE that come to work with us will have a happier and more secure future than the ones who stay at Gatwick. (We don't hate our cabin crew, we rather like them) For those who DO stay at LGW, my sympathy is all with Secret Squirrel . Good luck mate, you have all our support, and you will, I am sure, retain your command over some spotty faced erk who can build a lego tower. Anyone who followed the threads on the CFE integration will be familiar with the nauseating hypocrisy coming from the mainliners, and the inevitability of the way a lot of good guys were screwed royally. Now they think they will do it to BRAL/Manx, anothe profitable and (relatively) happy independent sucked into BA. The extent of the BALPA involvement in the so called imaginary SCOPE can be seen from the amount of comms between mainline BALPA and our CC. ZILCH. Looking after their own. Again! Do you REALLY think BA management will let you set a precedent on a costly exercise like Scope? Scotty may very well actually beam you up before THAT happens.
And as a final note on the so called BA pilot skills......funny thing our sim chop rate has accelerated dramatically since we started taking the BA 'product'.

Nothing personal guys, just fact. :D

overstress

18th Apr 2002, 20:02

Little Prince:

With a handle like that I enjoyed reading your fairy tale. Your posting is pure management, or wannabe management - trainer are you?

I quote <a fleet partly operated by high cost mainline guys, and partly by us profitable dudes>

So mainline pilots=unprofitable eh?

I think you'll find that the profitability of an airline has little to do with pilot pay. You spout BS and you know it.

There are two kinds of postings on here, those which seek to IMPROVE T's & C's and those which seek to drag them down. You appear to fall firmly in the latter camp and you should now own up as the management plant you undoubtedly must be.

PS Prince, had it occurred to you that we are all in this together to improve our collective lot?

snooky

18th Apr 2002, 20:39

Well said overstress.

This whole debate comes down to two or three basics.

Firstly, pilot pay does not mean the difference between an airline making a reasonable profit or not.

Secondly, it is in all pilots' long term interest that pay and conditions should be improved and not eroded. I find it outrageous that someone purporting to be a pilot should advocate use of the lowest paying option.

Thirdly, management will always try to get things on the cheap- that's their job I suppose.

Incidentally, I think that Little Prince should show more respect for his younger professional collegues.

Magplug

19th Apr 2002, 09:31

OK Little Prince…..

I am all done now with being moderate, understanding or conciliatory. I am quite happy to work with a bunch of reasonable men towards a better working life however you are now on your own.

When you are all working for peanuts for whoever/wherever we will:

- Clean off the graffiti from the toilets walls in Jubilee House
- Take down the snide comments from all the notice boards
- Get rid of the chewing gum
- Build some bridges to our alienated rostering staff & dispatchers
- Get on with building a profitable business.
- Try to remember what life was like before school turned out.

When the bat is being inserted where the sun-don’t-shine - Don’t bother looking to your new colleagues for support – It won’t be there.

I just remembered why we had pilot selection!

HomerJSimpson

19th Apr 2002, 10:10

The Little Prince

Did you by any chance ever apply to BA?

ASRAAM

19th Apr 2002, 10:43

So if it is all down to pilot costs how come Easyjet and Ryanair have higher salaries than both BA (unless you have done more than about 17 Years) and BACE but still manage to charge passengers lower fairs?

Land ASAP

19th Apr 2002, 15:21

Way too obvious Mr Prince. You have been summarily despatched to the compartment labelled "Management Plant".

Please Mr Prune can we have an 'ignore' function on this website?

Hand Solo

19th Apr 2002, 16:35

Well Little Prince I'd almost cry at your post if I wasn't laughing so loud. As you enjoy fairy tales so much let me recount a real tale. Around two years ago I sat in a hotel bar in Europe with a CFE crew, around the time BA had proposed handing over most of EOGs routes to CFE. Nice guys they were too, but oh so insistent that the routes would come to them, BA pilots were too expensive, CFE pilots would make it work, BALPA wouldn't stand in the way and they were on a tremendous thing. Two years later, what do we see? No wholesale route transfers to CFE due to BALPA intervention, CFE pilots shafted by the transfer of their aircraft to a lower paying operator, CFE captains facing the possible loss of command and all down to the whim of BA management. Not such a pretty picture now is it? In two years time it'll be the same story again, except this time it'll be BACE sitting on the bat instead of CFE. As for your comic assertion that BACEs profitability is so significant, well just remember that it wasn't so long ago BA were the worlds were most profitable airline, recording profits of over £500 million. Once the FS&S shake down is completed and the North Atlantic picks up we'll be back there again.

So what if you were instructing on fast jets when I was a boy. Where have you gone since then? If you're so good why aren't you in BA like your old fast jet QFI mates, many of whom work at a very happy regional base, where they get on well with the cabin crew and earn more money than you.

Fox One

19th Apr 2002, 17:23

:( :( :(
Management must really be laughing at the way you are all behaving like children. I'm BACE, and I agree with the concept we WILL get the RJs. That doesn't mean we have to fall out about it.
If there is one thing you can be 100% sure of in this industry; any airline, any country, anywhere.and all the time.......:rolleyes: it is that (wait for it;) ):

Things will always change ! :eek:

Anyone who doesn't believe this, is doomed to failure - so lets stop trying to create a second class airline (:p to all you smartass Mainliners), and stop trying to live in the past, (:cool: to all you isolationist CFE and BACE guys!)

If we don't speak together, we'll be shafted alright, but it would be far worse to be shafted by our so-called supposed 'colleagues' in what used to be the world's favourite. :mad:

Hand Solo

19th Apr 2002, 17:31

The only people I see here trying to create a second class airline are you and your colleagues Fox One. If you think you WILL get the RJs then you are taking jobs from the CFE guys. No ifs, no buts. They aren't going to be allowed to fly them on any salary. As you're so happy to fly them at T&Cs so far below mainline, EOG, BAR and ex-CFE then you are eagerly reducing the number of well paid jobs in the UK airline industry by about 150. Please explain how that is not creating a second class airline. The management are laughing very hard, and you're just tickling their toes. Change is constant, but there's change for better and change for worse.

Fox One

19th Apr 2002, 17:56

:o As some of my colleagues have observed Handyboy, you really are a rather strange individual.. If you recall, there were a large number of CFE chaps who didn't want to be part of BA, and there were a huge amount of us who felt the same.
If you think that your thinly disguised attempts at retaining loss making routes -
(don't really care about that, OUR company has consistently been profitable, and those of us who have stayed with it have done so because we actually like it, and our regional jobs, even if they didn't attract main line major levels of T and C.
- and your attempt to reduce us to a small aeroplane operator - (yes, we know whats the real story, Mainline BALPA actually want scope at 70 seats - I wonder why!!!!!) you are deluding yourself.
Remember laddie, CHANGE WILL HAPPEN.

Why not go with the flow, instead of selfishly trying to retain it all for yourself - oh, and don't give us that BS about trying to get us all on mainline Ts and Cs - sorry, must go, the toothfairy is calling!

Hand Solo

19th Apr 2002, 20:05

Yes lots of people at CFE didn't want to be part of BA. A large number did, and with just a few exceptions most are financially better off with BA - better T&Cs, more opportunity. Your company has been consistently profitable, trading for several years now on our name and reputation. Well lucky you, I'm sure thats all down to your hard work on low pay, in fact your pay must make or break all of those routes, just like you think ours does. I'm sure you have stayed with it because you like your regional job, just like most of the guys at BAR have stayed with it, despite inferior T&Cs to mainline, who you are so keen to displace.

As for your assertions that all 70+ seats is BALPAs target for scope, please don't flatter yourself. I couldn't give a rats ass about 70, 80, or 90 seat flying. The further away from me the better, and I'm sure almost all my BA colleagues agree. But when you start taking BA aircraft, flown by BA pilots out of the BA inventory and then hand them over to another company, well thats a different matter entirely. If 'going with the flow' means handing over our positions to you just because you're cheap then I choose to swim the other way.

Now on to your assertion as to me being a strange individual. Would you like to back that up with some evidence, or shall we just put that down to childish name calling laddie?

Peter Skellan

19th Apr 2002, 20:36

Oh how lovely it must be to work for BA. Pilot group against pilot group against cabin crew against everyone else.

Face it guys. Gatwick is knackered. Easy are going to clean up on the European routes, BA will retrench and from then its a downward spiral. No airline ever survived by becoming smaller..

BA should have taken over CFE and handed over all routes to them OR kept Go and done the same.

BA will become a long haul airline with medium haul feeders in-house. All shorthaul is essentially screwed. All it would take is an agreement with Easy etc. to offer transfer of baggage and codeshare and Bingo.

You don't fly to CAP371, your aircraft do 8hrs a day no 13, you pay your cabin crew a fortune and your groundstaff are so protected by seniority and unions that they do very little for a small fortune with bad grace.

The flightdeck crew are great operators to a man.

Shame really. Glad I never accepted the offer.

PS

Charizard

19th Apr 2002, 20:36

I am quite sure, Mr. Handjob, that the attitude you portray will impress all my colleagues in BACE, from Brymon, BRAL and Manx, as to just how fortunate we are to be joining an organisation whose employees so clearly and vocally want nothing but the best for us. Your sheer arrogance in referring to our operations under your colours - bear in mind these were charged for by BA, simply because YOU couldn't get a return on them. Doubtless this was a BA management plot to disadvantage you poor overworked and underpaid BA pilots. Bear in mind that even though we paid BA through the nose for the franchise, we STILL made a profit on them. But, lest we forget, you and your friends have our best interests at heart. We can tell from your contemptuous references to us that you are clearly delighted to have us as part of BA. I wonder, could it be because you know we could (and lets face it, probably will, in time) be operating more and more of your aeroplanes, and making even more profit. You have to remember that actually, some of us would be delighted to do your jobs at 2/3rds the salary - hey, we'd probably do it better too! You note I say "some". This is because the only reason most of us haven't already joined you is that we like life in the regions, and we DID like life as part of a Company where everyone knew each other, and could resolve problems without the grinding corporate machine represented by BALPA and BA .
Well, that's history now, but if I were in your shoes WHATEVER you fly, I'd be VERY worried. As my mate said, change is the only sure thing, and corporate views change. Remember you came from BEA and BOAC, once upon a time, big was thought to be beautiful. I wonder if that's still the case.

BALPA.??? (Pause for guffaws) Oh yes, that's where a BA long haul expat Captain is trying to displace the General Secretary, because apparently you don't like him either. What's the matter, did he not provide a suitable exec limo to take you to your aircraft? Or did he dare to suggest that the cheeseboard was an anachronism? Seems you don't like anyone who doesn't agree with you and doesn't pass you another cheeseboard. You carry on matey boy, you are doing the best single Captain Lemming job I've ever seen to REALLY encourage us to turn the clock back a few years. What goes around etc etc. So when is my Airbus course then, I should think they'll be next on their way to us, closely followed by the shuttle!

Do keep it up, I laughed till my eyes were dry. You're not a lemming at all are you, more of a DODO!!:)

JW411

19th Apr 2002, 21:40

A few days ago I tried to suggest to all of you "BA chaps" that you should bury the hatchet, but, as always, greed and avarice is coming to the top of the pile. War has now broken out within BA yet again, it would appear.

I seriously think that we are (within the next few years) going to witness the final collapse of the Imperial Airways/British Airways/BOAC/BEA/BA Country Club PLC. As an ex-GK employee (who was badly shafted by the likes of Lord King and Sir Adam Thompson and had my flying career totally f***ed for 13 months), I should really have little sympathy, but time is a great healer and strangely enough, I just cannot believe how much hatred you guys in BA still have for each other- you have learned nothing. I was "seconded" to BEA for a year on the Viscount many years ago and their (BEA) hatred for BOAC was amazing.

Being out of work is not fun. Certainly, I would suggest that you chaps in BA seriously consider your future. The UK government is not going to bail you out. If you stil need some confidence, just look at what happened to Equitable Life!

To Mr Solo; I have to apologise in advance (with reference to his RAF fast jet pilots); As I have already indicated, I was offered a position on one of the very early Hamble courses. (I recently found the BOAC welcoming blurb in the attic and was amused to read that "a Senior BOAC 707 Captain" could "possibly" earn £5000 per year).

Dear Mr Hand Solo, Not all of us in the Royal Air Force were fast jet pilots and to a lot of us, the alternative was by choice. In my case, I wanted to see the world and spent my entire RAF career on 4-engined transport aircraft complete with a good F/E.

I never did a ground tour and I managed 9000 hours on 4-engined aeroplanes. To my astonishment, I became a training captain on 4-engined aeroplanes at the age of 25. It must have worked out OK for I have never had a complaint.

I did my ATPL at Kidlington some 3 years before leaving the RAF. In those days a Seneca was £72 per hour but I had to start all over again despite my RAF experience.

Despite the fact that my wardrobe has more uniforms therein than the Imperial War Museum, I have had a good civilian career. Put simply, I got a DC-10 command within a year of leaving the Air Force and I have not had to move seats since. I have probably made a lot more money than I would have had I joined BA and I have had a hell of a lot more fun than the folk that I see squabbling on Pprune!

Be nice to one another or else your huge inflated bubble is going to burst!

Baron Harkonnen

20th Apr 2002, 06:15

Hey Jay Dubbya, well said. Why is it that all the common sense originates elsewhere than the mainline BA sources. It used to be instructive to have a read of their private forum, using the old Skippy6 password - certainly their guys were not shy about sharing access! And wow, if you had only read all the posts about needing a BA man at the top of BALPA!!!

However, being both ex mil and BACE, sense must prevail. As JW said, the final collapse could be imminent. Who do you think is most vulnerable - the lower or the higher cost elements of the operation? Don't need a Flight Engineer to work that one out! We in BACE are very well aware that pilot salaries are not the be all and end all, either in terms of proportion of operating cost, or in relevance to a good quality of life; - but on the other hand, in security of future and tenure, the answer might look a little diffferent???????. Remember how a certain Mr A. Scargill thought he was invincible because of the might of his union, and the skirmishes he had won previously against previous opposition.
We all have a pretty good deal by anyone's comparison. As Sheryl Crow sings,
"It ain't about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you got....."

So, let's not fall out. Negotiating and compromise is the way forward, not bully boy Hand 'Mick McGahey' Solo dictating what we will and will not get, whilst expecting his own cosy little world to continue unaffected. I've flown with some of our BA kaydets and kaydettes, and mostly they're just as good as the usual new entry, and they're mostly just glad to have a job, and be doing some interesting flying. One might think too that a grounding in the world of the ATP, Dash 8 and Jetstream will probably do them far more good in terms of a career foundation than jumping straight into a Scroggs wundajett!

Hoping for a more friendly way forward................(but not holding my breath).

The Overloaded Man

20th Apr 2002, 11:13

JW and Barron,

Nice to hear a little objectivity - I was getting pretty sick of all the precious my job's more important than your job type of stuff that's been prevalent on this thread. One thing I can't abide is someone trying to tell me that a particular job is not for me but for only for the likes of whoever. I've just had to put up with all of that crap at another British Major ...

overstress

20th Apr 2002, 16:07

WoW! Some contributers here positively drip venom and envy (which are both the same colour). I hope I never have to share a flight deck with them, knowingly or not.

There seems to be huge ill-feeling from certain regional individuals whilst some of them seem to be getting things hugely out of proportion whilst offering to do my job for 2/3 pay whilst doing it better!

Well I don't see how we're ever going to improve t&c for UK airline pilots whilst individuals like Charizad (who got the wrong end of the stick about Hand Solo's location) abound.

Tell me your management position, Chazza? You can't be a line pilot with your giveaway offers, surely?

Maximuss

20th Apr 2002, 17:06

I think it accurate that there is a widespread feeling, (true or otherwise) that BA are not remotely interested in assisting us in BACE, purely in lining their own pockets. Whatever the rights or wrongs of their own position, remuneration wise, they cannot expect us to cheer as our takeover results in our own degradation of Ts and Cs, not to mention aircraft types.

Its just a pity there is not more communication from BA BALPA, but from where we are, they appear more interested in changing the Gen Secretary, in order to achieve enough disruption to force a pay rise. Again, right or wrong in fact, I think it is pretty selfish prioritisation.

Name calling is always wrong, but some people really do seem to deliberately provoke it. Its a pity there isn't a management filter on here, not to mention an agent provocateur filter.

Anyone think JF will actually win?

overstress

20th Apr 2002, 19:34

Maximuss:

Who do you mean in BA - we the line pilots or the management?

I can assure you that as a line pilot I would wish to see you operating on best terms and conditions you can get from the company, nothing less.

(I have worked for other companies before on worse conditions and would not wish to go back).

I only wish that some of your colleagues would wish the same to us.

Deadleg

20th Apr 2002, 20:32

I respectfully suggest Mr/Capt Moderator that we treat this thread like the last hour or so of day 5 of a rain/bad light interupted cricket test match.No one has even the remotest chance of winning so we should all call it a draw and adjorne to the bar and get pissed and s*%tcan the management in the best possible style!

Secret Squirrel

20th Apr 2002, 22:23

HOMER:

Please don't talk to me about selection processes as if they were a hardship. You, just like everybody else, read up on what was required and you had every angle covered before you went in. You probably even bought yourself a leggo kit or Knex or whatever it is they use. You played the white man all along and you duped them into thinking that you were just the person you were looking for. You fawned and you won a scholarship for which you had to pay not a penny. THAT is possibly the only thing that comes close to a hardship. Had you not been so fortunate yourself on the one or two days it takes to complete the whole process I ask myself how many of you cadets would actually have had the mettle to find your own way of becoming pilots.

I won't bore all and sundry with the hardships that vocational pilots have had to go through or the potentially life threatening hardships that our boys in blue have had to go through as they are well documented but don't make me laugh, Homer.

You may well be a good pilot and a good operator but you know absolutely nothing about airlines or hardships; all you understand is seniority lists.

You don't understand, do you, the hypocrisy of our situation. We could have done all those routes far cheaper and far more efficiently than BA. Fine, we would be on a lower wage but we had a cool airline (with a crap rosterring system!) and all it's problems were being ironed out slowly. Eventually we would have had bigger aircraft just like GB. We didn't have to put up with stroppy dispatchers or get called into the office because we berated them for not doing their job properly. We didn't have ramp managers tell the tug drivers that they couldn't load a couple of pax' bags in the hold (so that we could make a slot!!!). We couldn't be seen to show up BA as we had been doing for years! We couldn't beat them so we had to join them. Fine, now they are doing to us precisely what they didn't want us to do to them: fly our routes with their aircraft and shove us aside quoting seniority (which, if anything, we should have had AT LEAST from Dec 2000 anyway).

If my attitude seems strange to you then it's because you are what I said you were; a Silver Spoon Pilot. I worked hard for four years to get my command (and longer if you count training and instructing) and I'm dammned if I'm going to lose it to a bunch of hypocrites without a fight and a rant.

I have been willing to accept my lot, Homer, don't get me wrong. If my fleet had not been touched, or if you people hadn't been trying to strip me of my hard-earned stripes to protect your own interests I'd be Mr Friendly. As it is, it's you or me and my name ain't Jesus.

Hand Solo:

150 jobs are not being lost, don't be so melodramatic. Acording to Lloydy baby there are more than enough places at LHR and LGW to fit us all in over the next three years; which is how long it will take them to crew 16 RJ's fully.

Also, your assertion that it is management and BA that are trying to stiff us is hogwash propaganda nonsense. In my case, if anything, and for what I'm 'fighting/bleeting/whingeing' -whatever - I've got management on my side because if they can, they'd rather I retain my command as they'll have to pay me as such anyway, so they may as well get their money's worth.

To all those who are advocating moderation, I appreciate where you're coming from. To a certain extent you are right. However, you have to appreciate that BA is too big and therefore it's individuals too selfish. It's making me so, but only because in order to survive, I fight fire with fire.

When the only words that ever come out of a BA pilot is seniority, seniority, seniority you become a little weary and there will never be understanding; they don't care about anything else.

James Thin

21st Apr 2002, 07:27

You make so much sense, Secret Squirrel. I only wish more BA guys were like you. You have a lot in common with most of us in BACE. You can fly with me anytime.
Seriously, what do YOU think we should do then? And what would you do if you worked for BACE at this current time.

Happy landings !

snooky

22nd Apr 2002, 12:29

Squirrel, don't get me wrong in what I'm about to say, because I do think that what is happening to you and your colleagues is very disruptive and very sad.

I do however, if what seems about to happen does happen, disagree with you in that you should be treated out of seniority to retain your command.

You say that you took four years of hard work to attain it, so you won't give it up lightly.

Had you been in BA for that length of time, either as a DEP or a CEP, you would only just be becoming an SFO. Three years later, you would become SFO1. With luck, maybe after another four years of hard work, including possibly having to study a buisiness course in your own time and putting up with much bull**** at such events as "captains for the future", you would then have the seniority to start a short haul command course.

So really, your four years shouldn't mean that you jump the queue, should it?

Capt Pit Bull

22nd Apr 2002, 13:23

Go on tour for a few days and look what happens....

Let me try and clear the water a little here, at least as far as my own position is concerned.

The main thrust behind my earlier posts was to try and educate at least some individuals in the BA community that not everything is unequivocally better at BA versus CFE.

Now I accept that may come across as 'living in the past' and therefore it has been suggested that I concentrate on the future. Now thats a valid point, but its one I'm already aware of.

The only reason I raise these issues is to dispell the opinion, held by some but not all BA pilots, that BA is so brilliant that everyone must be overjoyed to be there.

After all, as the saying goes, to fail to understand history is to be doomed to repeat it.

Apreciate if you all can, that 'better off' and 'worse off' are relative terms. Although my lot in life may have deteriorated, its still way better than what I had to go through to get to CFE. Whatever else you may think, the overall process of getting to CFE and thence to BA can not possibly be considered as 'being handed to me on a plate'.

But by the same token I want to make it clear that I have no problem with the CEP population. If you've managed to get BA to shell out for your training and give you a job, then good for you!

However, please don't interpret that as meaning I will silently give up my role as a short haul captain at LGW just because the company has choosen to juggle aircraft around, and some SFOs think they see an opportunity to advance to the LHS. As far as I'm concerned, a plane is a plane. If the P&P rules direct us to LHS anything, then I would have thought that will only happen within the confines of the rules. To those that tell me I have misjudged the feeling of the mainline community in this regard I can only plead 'Guilty'. But surely you're not suggesting that the rules will only be applied if they benefit mainline pilots...

Fundamentally, the events of 9/11 have meant that many peoples career progression has taken a temporary halt in progress. But as far as I can see, (within BA) only the ex-CFE LHS community is looking at a massive step backwards.

To those who have expressed sympathy to our situation, I realise that I have been remiss is expressing my appreciation. Sorry! I do at least feel that some people are now better aware of our circumstances.

Now, finally, can I just return to the topic of discussion earlier in my post.

I say "I'm worse of at BA than CFE".

Can I respectfully suggest that instead telling me to shut up and be grateful / I'm not worthy / CFE integration 'disgusts' part of the BA community etc. etc, that a more useful response would be:

"BAs T&Cs have been so eroded that some things were better even at CFE. This is a sign of how things are going. We must stop it."

Because you can't on one hand tell me how brilliant BA is, and then with any conviction argue the opposite viewpoint when negotiating with management.

Out.

CPB

22nd Apr 2002, 16:00

This is a long and boring post. Skip it if you're just tuning in for the next installment of the soap opera on this thread...

Well, frankly I'm appalled at the attitude shown here by pilots from both mainline and BACE. Of the pilot's I personally know from both groups I have heard nothing like this sort of self-defeating bulls**t, so I can only hope that this thread represents a minority.

I am one of these apparently much detested cadet pilots, sponsored by BA, and very grateful for it. BA, in particular those responsible for the TPS program have been extremely supportive and pleasant, and for that as well, I am grateful. Without the sponsorship, there is *no way* I could have afforded to put myself through training, either through parental contributions or loans. I resent being told that I somehow have less of a right to my expectations of a career because I haven't suffered enough "hardship". It hasn't been financially easy, and I am still in debt.

I believe that the pilot community as a whole has a right to as good t&c's as it can manage to achieve, and those t&c's should not be determined by what state your company is in, but by what similar professionals in the working population get (Doctors? Maybe. Certainly at least lawyers, accountants and market peers). If your airline can only make money by paying its employees less than its competitors, there is something wrong with its business, and asking employees to effectively subsidise its profits is not on. BA seems to concentrate to a great degree on precisely what conditions its pilots work under - as though somehow this is the determining factor in whether it makes a profit. Well, BA feels it needs (currently) around 50000 people to fly its 300 odd aircraft. If you're telling me that barely 3000 of these people determine the profitability of the operation, you must think I came down with the last shower of rain. With the specific example of sending the RJ's to BACE, if these 150 pilots are the make-or-break factor for BA, it may as well give up now. But they're not. You know, and I know, that the reason BA is up Airway 5H1T with a double engine failure, is the gross inefficiency (mainly unnecessary backroom employees) in the airline.

Tinkering with the pilots is simply a convenient thing for managers to do whilst they ignore the more serious problems. And while the pilots and BALPA get obsessed with these trivialities, they aren't dealing with the fundamental problems of the airline and putting any industrial muscle behind forcing necessary changes out of the company, or protecting their t&c's.

If you say you are happy and don't want better wages, I'm sorry, but you're stupid. There are no marks here for altruism. Equally, if you're more concerned with putting all your attention towards blowing out a candle whilst the house burns down around you, you aren't too bright either.

I'm sure that RJ's going to BACE will not result in better t&c's for BACE, nor will it make the BA group profitable, so why do you want them? I'm sure that in the medium term there will be a facility to move from BACE to mainline, so why do you want fewer jobs available in mainline? BACE looks like a great operation (perhaps barring the extra management heaped on them by BA) to work for, and if you wish to be based in the regions, and find your t&c's acceptable then that's great. However there is little point in disadvantaging your colleagues elsewhere for no benefit to yourselves. Who knows, a change of circumstance in the future may mean you wish to move to mainline afterall...

With regard to my own situation, I am told that Mainline will not be requiring my services for at least 18 months, more likely 2 years, and if I'm lucky I might be offered a contract with BACE in the meantime. I would be very happy with that, and will certainly take it - I love flying, and need a job. I do however resent the fact that I am also told BA mainline need pilots now - however to avoid actually employing them they wish to scrap their existing FTL's and squeeze more hours from their existing pilots, not to mention free up a couple of hundred (approx 12 months further delay to recruitment) pilots by moving their a/c elsewhere. I certainly can't believe BALPA are accepting that. You might say I should just be happy BA paid for my license, and I am, but I don't think its right that they should be overzealously delaying recruitment, preventing me from having a career in *any* industry whilst dangling me around on a string. Certainly not when the efficiencies they wish to squeeze from my chosen career are so negligible compared to what needs to be done it's almost unbelievable.

I hope that made sense.

Cu.

PS If people want to flame me loads for this post, then fine, but I'll then delete it, and you'll look silly, and your post will be pointless. Aha.

Secret Squirrel

22nd Apr 2002, 18:15

Allow me to clear up one small point. I have nothing against CEP's per se; just those who get up on their high seniority horse as if that was all that mattered in the world.

That said:

JT

I'm sorry but I have no advice other than what I have already given: Beware of prophets bearing gifts!

Snooky

Fair point but I didn't join BA. They recruited me, as I came (with four stripes!), to do a job for them. Yes, they reward me well and yes, better than before. EOG pilots didn't want me to stay at CFE and do any routes that were previously done by them so they forced BA to integrate us. No complaints so far. Now we're in and BA have decided that the RJ is more trouble than it's worth (funny how we always managed to keep the program running on greased wheels). So what do you all do?, you throw the book at us; you shake our hand with one hand and slap us across the head with the other. What would you have me do, Snooky?

To my mind - and I'm 100% sure you'd agree if you were in my shoes - It makes little or no sense to replace a captain with two years experience (as I will have by the time I'm shifted off - maybe more!) with an FO who is next in line just because....(s)he's next in line. Not to mention having to keep paying me command salary! I don't think it would make much sense in The City either and yet here you all are criticising BA for being inefficient and wasting money. I'm not religious but I went to a catholic school and one of the quotes which crops up most in life is the one about noticing splinters in other people's eyes and not seeing the plank sticking out of your own.

I repeat, it was BA pilots who brought on this situation in the first place so it seems only fair that you now face the consequences rather than shove us to the forefront to pay for your lack of foresight.

Capt Pit Bull

22nd Apr 2002, 18:28

I had intended my previous post to be the last on this thread, but having read Cus post I thought a response was justified.

Well, not so much a response as a gesture of appereciation. Your post was at worst medium length, and definitely not boring - You have I think encapsulated the situation precisely.

I'm only sorry that your own circumstances are so unfortunate.

I can identify with your situation having suffered bad timing myself - got my ticket just before Air Europe went under, which I view as being the beginning of the last recession.

I won't insult you by offering a platitude about how it will all come good in the end.

But I just hope that it does.

And you're right of course - being grateful to someone (in this case BA for sponsoring) does not give them carte blanche to behave however they like towards you.

Best wishes.

CPB

Pontiuspilot

22nd Apr 2002, 18:38

Regardless of the real cash flow/profitability accounting cascade and responsibility allocation for the profit/loss account, one thing seems fairly obvious:
Namely that household names in the Airline world are falling by the wayside, changing, and/or restructuring to best cope with the economic and socio-business changes we've all seen over the last couple of years.

What do we see from BA? We see an attempt to resist any and all change perceived as remotely disadvantageous to their pilots. To ensure this happens, we see an attempt to remove the BALPA GenSec, and have a BA line pilot elected instead - allegedly so as to get a further election to secure a new GenSec who will cause more industrial disruption to secure better terms and more money for BA.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is ridiculous. Fiddling while Rome burns, behaving like a dinosaur...........

overstress

22nd Apr 2002, 19:42

Pontius,

Speaking as a Roman Dinosaur, I think your perspective is all wrong.

Our loads are back up, the figures are looking good, the institutions are buying the stock and there will soon be a massive pilot shortage.

The BA Airbus fleet will soon be VERY short of pilots.

So, again, your post does not gel with the current feeling in BA.

BA pilots standing up for themselves is between BA and BALPA, no-one else, no matter what anyone else thinks. Our management cannot be trusted with a 'concession' unless it applies to their own airline travel!

You all look after your jobs, we'll take care of ours. If you join us, then your opinion becomes more relevant!

Hand Solo

22nd Apr 2002, 20:52

Pontiuspilot you appearred to have walked straight into Mervyn Granshaws trap. The election of the BALPA GS is not really for this thread but I think its an important issue for all of us.

BALPA leadership have attempted to rubber stamp the re-election of Chris Darke by hushing up the requirement to re-elect him. JF is standing to prevent this. Its not relevant which candidate one prefers, but now at least CD must issue a manifesto setting out his goals so that we have a standard by which to measure his performance. For a man to receive £100000 of all our money without spelling out in detail what he intends to do for it is unacceptable.

BALPAs financial situation is currently fairly bleak, despite membership increasing significantly. There has been inadequate explanation of this anomaly. Also there is evidence, certainly of a laxness towards personal accounting, if not dishonest use of the associations funds, identifed in the accounts. Its all our money, so why has there been no open debate on this subject?

Why has MG sought to influence the outcome of the election so blatantly, using association funds to campaign on behalf of one candidate, breaking association rules in the process? Why has he sought to portray JFs nomination as a BA conspiracy and why has he sought to turn this into a 'David and Goliath' campaign with big bad JF efficiently mobilising his (minority BALPA group) BA membership against poor 'David' Darke, who only has at his disposal all the assets of the association, a mailshot to every member and a page in The Log?

There is something rotten in our association and these latest shenanigans suggest it goes all the way to the top. If 'standing ovation' CD is so confident of his support why is he trying to rig the vote? Why does MG feel he has to support him. And why are they trying to sway your opinion whilst denying their opponents the same opportunity?

Who you vote for on the day is your choice, but I would implore you to reserve judgement until both candidates have had a fair opportunity to state their case. Whichever side of the fence you're on let us all at least unite behind the principal that our association is democratic, not autocratic.

Pontiuspilot

22nd Apr 2002, 21:27

Thanks for that guys. You make a good point. I shall not make up my mind until I have read both manifestos. As you say, a 100k salary should have SOME justification.
CD is taking up the cudgel directly with our boss ref. current Ts and Cs in BACE. Our CCs have done a great job so far, despite contimual obfuscation from management. If CD wants our votes, he will have to produce the goods.

HomerJSimpson

22nd Apr 2002, 22:22

Secret Squirrel

For one you don't know my history, so please don't assume that I woke up one morning picked up the Times and thought 'oooh BA want pilots I think I'll do that !!!!'. It took me 3 attempts over 4 years to be taken on by BA and with £14000 of flying debt already hanging around my shoulders. Oh and by the way CEPs start on £10000 a year less than DEPs and have to repay the company £15000. Who do you really think takes the brunt of the training costs at the end of the day?

Please do us all a favor and wind your neck in.

snooky

23rd Apr 2002, 11:37

Squirrel

You say that "It makes no sense to replace a Captain with two years experience with an FO who is next in line just because he is next in line."

That FO may have waited over 10 years for his turn in line to come, and may have many years experience as a Captain before joining BA.
The p&p rules are there to be followed. I accept that maybe personally you may not have chosen to join BA, but now you are in I don't see why you should jump the queue. The cost of your extra pay is not going to worry a management who can blow millions on a variety of whims.

Incidentally, the rules do say that directions to a particular seat or fleet can only occur after all valid bids have been satisfied.

Tandemrotor

23rd Apr 2002, 13:18

This has been a very wide ranging thread, with some valid points made on both sides, including interruptions by various people, in the luxury of total ignorance, who appear to have nothing more than an axe to grind - Very welcome, informative, and interesting - NOT!

I am actually interested in the topic that this thread is supposed to be about! So, can anyone please tell me what is the very latest regarding the future crewing of 100+ seat jets in the regions. Have any firm decisions yet been taken? Has any timescale been suggested for such decisions? Is there an outcome that could satisfy both pilot groups?

To put my cards on the table, I am mainline, longhaul with a real desire to return to the regions. I will almost certainly take a pay cut to do so! Should that be a problem for anyone? I have to say that from where I am, Hands Solo speaks for many of us.

For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .

Must Dash

23rd Apr 2002, 16:14

Tandemrotor, watch this space tommorrow as there is an annoucement about to be made regarding BACE reorganising in the regions, it may include info on the location and who will be flying the RJ 100s.

Pontius

23rd Apr 2002, 19:03

Tandem,

Talks between BA and BALPA are progressing but no decisions have been made. This topic obviously raises many issues but because of the sensitivity of the talks and the commercial implications no news is being 'leaked'. So even though it seems like it has all gone very quiet, there is lots going on in the background. No, I'm not part of the BALPA team (and certainly not on the Dark side.....no matter how you spell it :p ) but these little birds keep telling me things, obvioulsy without giving away any of the stuff they're not meant to. I don't know if it will be the case and realise you're not too close to LGW, but I would imagine the LGW boys will be saying something about it at the meeting on Thursday (1900, Renaissance Hotel LGW if you didn't know). Yes, this is BA BALPA members only.

Finally, since Pontiuspilot has chosen such an original name :rolleyes: , some of those who know me have been commenting on some of my posts recently. Please note my pseudo-name and understand that I definitely do NOT share some of his views......particularly regarding the MG letter and especially NOT about keeping Darke. But then, I am in BA, so I would obviously be trying to oust him, because I want BALPA only to look after BA pilots.......trite idiots (not directed at Pontiuspilot) :mad:

Pontius

Tandemrotor

23rd Apr 2002, 19:50

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info.

overstress

23rd Apr 2002, 21:56

Does the LH life not suit, Tandemrotor?

Incidentally I can verify your comments on the attitudes of some of the BACE crews @ BHX to those around them.

BACE guys, some of your number (a small minority as ever) are hacking off the BA dispatchers and CC.

Not sure where the 'attitude' comes from but I can certainly say that BA BHX is (or was before FS&S) a happy base - no need to upset the applecart guys, we are all in this together now.

Secret Squirrel

23rd Apr 2002, 23:20

Yeah, Homer, whatever you say.

Snooky:

Please, get real old man. Do you perchance think I sprang up with this year's daffodils or something? If you're going to qualify your arguments at least do it more convincingly. An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever and managed to cheat the system by doing less hours than everybody else. In any case if they were neither they would have been able to bid for a command long before I arrived.

Some of you may not know but there is a Balpa meeting for members only somewhere down in the LGW area this Thursday. I am going to be there so you can all spit on me there if you want. But seriously, I believe that this very topic - amoung others - is on the agenda.

Salutations

snooky

23rd Apr 2002, 23:47

Squirrel

You did mention earlier that places would be found for you at LGW or LHR. I agree that my 10 year assertion related to LHR, and I stand by that.
I know that in the past EOG commands have come up much sooner than this, and I really hope that in the next few years this can accomodate you and your colleagues.
So long as the system is followed noone can have any complaints.
Let's see what happens soon.

Oswaldo

24th Apr 2002, 13:50

Latest news from us here at BACE is that we have now, today, been formally told we are getting the RJs. For those of a suspicious mindset, we have not been SPECIFICALLY told when the training starts, and hence when we get into the flight deck. I can't help but wonder though, at the mindset of the BA people. There are categorically no people going to lose their jobs - they'll be absorbed by other fleets. I would bet anyone wanting to move to BACE will be able to, and at a more attractive package than the one they used to have with CFE. If not, then a different fleet at their present base. If they do lose a Command, then no loss of money anyway. Doesn't sound too drastic to me, though I must say I would be pretty disappointed to lose my LHS, (though I'd be more disappointed to keep it with a pay cut.
What on earth is the problem then? I think it is the union worrying about future potential encroachment onto other fleets, that's what!!! And it WILL happen chaps, not soon, but eventually.

And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all. And to our relief, they are all fantastic people too, just like our own Cabin Crew, but somewhat better paid (and that's not their fault)
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham. I CAN speak for Manchester, where we have always had to suck the hind teat, and generally been treated as second class operators, always being last to be serviced by handling etc. The BA union problem is most obvious of all at Manchester, very much a "not my job sir" or "we'll get to you when we've dealt with the other......" And this attitude in turn is probably created by under resourced, (though fantastically over paid) staff levels. And there, the one fact explains the other, methinks. Outsource the ground handling of BA and that would save a huge sum I would bet. Don't laugh, Sir Micky B has done that, and he was always more innovative than any of the BA placemen.

Hope some of that helps boys, lets all live together, work together, and stay in business for a bit longer eh?:rolleyes:

Pontiuspilot

24th Apr 2002, 14:26

For the love of God.......

Pontius, there are many Patels, Singhs, Smiths, Browns and goodness knows what else around. There are at least three other Pontius variants that I know of.

:eek:

To explain:

1. I'm against the forces of Darkeness.

2. I think MG made a huge mistake with his patronising letter.

3 I work for BACE, I'm happy here, so obviously I'm all for the
RJs coming to us at Manchester.

4. Your tone and attitude confirm the regional view about
mainline; a view shared by the majority of non - BA.

:D Do get a life old chap. Chin chin!

:p

Secret Squirrel

24th Apr 2002, 16:43

Dear Guys 'n' Gals at BACE. Just heard the news about the 500 jobs to go. I hope you are all going to be OK on the flight deck, and the cabin crew too as they usually get the rawest deal. In view of this didturbing news I am going to take Homer's advice and wind my neck in as my problems seem trivial in comparison to the possibility of some of you losing your jobs.

On a lighter note I'm pleased - if you all are - that you are getting the RJ's. You'll find it an endearing aircraft to fly once you get used to its many quirks. I have to admit that since we have joined BA the aircraft is much nicer to fly. The main reason for this is that we don't have to put up with so many ADDs. At CFE, if there was a defect it sometimes ran for weeks. There were many reasons for this and not all attributable to the engineering department. Let me tell you that flying with no FADEC and no APU on a crappy day is no joke and at CFE it happened at least once a month. When you're on it you will remember my words, believe me!

The bad side of the RJ is that anything to do with valves is notoriously unreliable; it's not RVSM cleared so you can't make the most of its 35,000 ft ceiling; the APU (or fifth engine as the wags like to call it) is useless and if you're anything over 39 tonnes the climb rate is abysmal above 15,000 ft. Someone once decribed it as a difficult aeroplane to operate but very easy to fly. The main culprit is undoubtedly the overhead panel. In view of the fact that BA would rather we didn't fly aircraft, I'll be glad to see the back of it after four years.

However, it does have many endearing qualities: namely that it is virtually impossible to do a hard landing or strike a pod; it flies very well and is very stable. The whole plane is very overengineered structurally so if you get caught in a storm as I once did, just sit it out because I guarantee the wings won't fall off. Also, the flight deck is quite spacious even if the cabin isn't.

Good luck with it, guys. I'm sure I'll be seeing some of you up in the regions for a year or two as we'll be doing 'w' pattern five day tours whilst you're all being trained up on it.

Regards, SS

Hulkomaniac

24th Apr 2002, 18:33

Thanks mate. Thanks for the good wishes, we dunno yet how many will be redundant, but it don't look good in Belfast, Cardiff or Bristol. Some suspicious jet removals from Southampton as well. I think the cabin crew will be worse hit than the FD.

Anyway thanks for your thought, clearly a gent! The RJ should still be an improvement on the Embraer, what a real cheap nasty dog THAT is!

overstress

25th Apr 2002, 00:16

Squirrel

<An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever >

I don't think such creatures exist, the writer referred to L/H

You guys hung up on loss of command: A bitter pill to swallow, but that is the price for joining the rollercoaster which is the BA master seniority list.

I appreciate you may not have had a lot of choice in it, but from where I sit, an RJ command does not cut a whole lot of ice. There are lots like me in BAR and we expect you guys to take it like a man, as we did when we joined the 'company' with probably a lot more experience than yourselves.

2 yrs in the LHS of an RJ (with not much experience prior) does not qualify for much in the BA melee (moulin for ex-charter types!)

Hand Solo

25th Apr 2002, 00:55

Oswaldo:

And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all.

Now I know your talking bollox, unless its your flight crew you're talking about. I think you have been talking to some fantasist colleagues of yours if you're trying to imply some imaginary divide between flight deck and cabin crew at BHX or even MAN. Perhaps you should tag along on a nightstop, or maybe come to next years flight&cabin crew xmas bash, or even just travel on one of our flights to learn the truth.

For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham.

Again, you've been speaking to the delusional! I challenge you to find a station anywhere on the BA network that has more efficient and willing ground staff than BHX, and I include all BA staffed stations we serve, all stations staffed by 3rd party contractors and all charter destinations. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE turns around an A319 faster. Ramp staff, engineers, despatchers, customer service, cleaners, cabin crew, flight crew, ops staff, crew controllers. Everybody works together, on first name terms with no pompous heirarchies, to get the job done quckly and properly. I can only assume that your colleagues who spin you this absolute garbage include the BACE Captain who shouted at one of our dispatchers "YOU! I WANT AN F'ING GPU ON THIS F'ING AIRCRAFT RIGHT F'ING NOW". He probably still wonders why nobody has the time of day for him. He never got the GPU either.

Taxi Dancer

25th Apr 2002, 15:15

When it comes to spinning garbage, Mr Solo, you are in a class of your own. I don't know which Fleet you are on, though RHS seems like a good bet, lacking the basic judgement you clearly do.
Whatever, since you see fit to spread falsehoods about our Company, don't expect any sympathy when the time comes for the next tranche of BA aeroplanes, (including yours) to come our way!:mad:

Hand Solo

25th Apr 2002, 17:52

Touched a nerve there have I taxi dancer? Was it you? I'll admit to being a bit unfair there by stating it was a BACE Captain, because that implies it could have been a Brymon crew and I'm assured they're generally a good bunch. I should really have said it was a BRAL Captain. For this and other exciting diatribes why not ask your friendly neighbourhood dispatcher next time you transit through Birmingham.

I'm not saying everyone is like that, I'm sure they're not, but Oswaldo shouldn't throw stones when he's in a glass house.

Mike Mercury

25th Apr 2002, 18:03

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Omigod, you are so funny. Hand Solo, with your talent for accuracy and discerning, impersonal debate, you should get a job writing an astrology column, or maybe as an agony uncle in a teens magazine.

Do keep it up; your contribution to the intellectual level of this debate, and its relevance to the thread itself - not to mention the fostering of good relations twixt us and you mainline lot is unsurpassable.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha:D :D :D

Hand Solo

25th Apr 2002, 18:10

Well Mike I'd love to have an informative and impersonal debate based purely on the facts of the case. In fact we almost achieved that several pages back, but most of us gave up under the weight of vitriolic, lazy nigel, who-do-you-think-you-are, I'm cheaper than you, can't weight to take your aircraft and knock you down a peg or too comments. As they say, you can't debate with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you on experience.

JW411

25th Apr 2002, 19:06

Good Lord; it really is beginning to look like they have taken my advice to be nice to one another. They are all beginning to kiss and make-up in true BA style. Well done chaps!

Captain Correlli

25th Apr 2002, 19:14

Yes, but look at the forced smiles! :D

Bigpants

26th Apr 2002, 07:06

Oswaldo you are wrong on a number of points....
The flightcrew cabincrew relationship at BHX is extremely good I have never seen any behaviour that would substantiate your slurs.
Secondly the ground staff are very good as Hand Solo said they can turn a 319 very quickly and we all get on well. I have not been to Man recently but I suspect they are suffering from poor morale and are under resourced on the front line. Lastly there are times when you have to wait as bigger aircraft are dealt with first it makes sense.

Sheepslagger

26th Apr 2002, 07:56

Illogical Bigtrousers.

If two aircraft arrive together, one big, one small, then I can see the prioritising of the bigger - not for any logical reason, but purely because of its size, it happens all the time.
The logistician would say that the total time taken to process both aircraft is a constant, and therefore, given a similar departure time for their respective next sector, the smaller aircraft will be delayed much more than the bigger, should the bigger be turned round first. Therefore it makes sense to actually process the smaller aircraft first, as it will be completed much sooner.

Unfortunately, what happens is that the bigger aircraft is often processed first, even when it arrives AFTER the smaller one, and has a much later departure slot than it's smaller colleague. Thus, the end result is a very late smaller aircraft, leading to extreme unpopularity of BA Handling (from the smaller crew) and BA generally (by the smaller aircraft's pax). It is impossible to set a time constraint, ie Big aircraft always first up to a ten minute cutoff of disparity in arrival times - so the system becomes illogical both in planning, as well as as execution.

If YOU had been consistently de-prioritised by BA handling, you might see matters a little differently. The real tragedy of logic is that it is still a BA passenger, (on the smaller aircraft) who is the real loser. He flies with lo-cost next time, thus we all lose.

The inability of pilot groupings to work together is quite cosmic, I sometimes think we deserve the shafting that management hand out - you don't see management berating each other in public forums, and squabbling over Ts &Cs.

Sorry to have gone off message on this thread, but everyone else does. My next bid is for an RJ!!:D :D :D

Bigpants

27th Apr 2002, 07:48

I do not think this can be argued without specifics eg time place flt number etc and even then it is a bit pointless.
In general I do trust the ground staff at BHX to get on with the job in a sensible manner. But then I would say that as an Airbus driver! If I was in your position I might see things differently.
I have encountered some bias in handling elsewhere. It has been common practice regardless of loads to allocate remote or second class stands for regional airbus flights in favour of LHR operations at EDI and DUS. It is a bit annoying but keep politely asking the ground staff why and bang in a voyage report if you are not satisfied with the answer.
It would be good if we could all get along a little better. The common denominator in most of the arguements we have is the BA management and its decision making ability/logic/insanity etc
Regards BP

climbs like a dog

30th Apr 2002, 10:15

I can't believe this thread has degenerated so. If you all just took a step back and had a look at the posts relating to who's getting on best with this set of ground staff. It's pathetic.

This issue of who gets to fly these RJ's is doing a very good job of setting one pilot group off against another.

I work for BACE and think that some of my colleagues are being a bit premature about "we will get this and we will get that". Guys it isn't in the bag.

And to my more distant colleagues in BA BALPA, why are you trying to stitch up a deal which does BACE down without even having the courtesy to let our CC into the picture. You may find that there are common areas of interest while all you're doing at the moment is making us very suspicious of your intentions and not very supportive. I might also add that we can only go by what we're told from on high by our managers which is that BACE will be operating the RJs.

Most of both pilot groups would agree that BA made a mistake absorbing CFE. It would appear from some ex-CFE posters here that the BA pilot workforce made mistakes too in the way it approached pilots who they now end up working with. Why tread the same weary path now.

So it would appear that we are well and truly divided. Our lords and masters must be laughing very hard.