Jetstar 787 Plans?

[Iver]

What's the latest with Jetstar's 787s? I realise the 787-900s have been delayed/cancelled at QF (50 options remaining?).

How soon will we see 787s at Jetstar? Will they be flown out of Australia or Singapore or both (what proportion)?

Cheers for any update.

[blueloo]

Rumour has it (from an engineer) that they are on the Boeing production line some with seats installed... Can't be changed to QF due to the particular seat configuration being the highest density set up by a 787 operator. A special type of sardine seat. Maybe it would make O'leary proud.....😰

[Ollie Onion]

First airframe in the middle of next year, the latest plan from Melbourne is that the first 8 787's will just be a straight one for one change out to the A330's. No bidding onto the new fleet as it will just be the displaced A330 crews retrained to the 787. The first 8 all destined for the East coast of Australia as head office has officially given up with ANY AOC in Singapore. Word has it that there will be NO new routes with these machines due to payload constraints because of the high capacity seating.

[Short_Circuit]

I heard that QF Domestic do not want them (787's) , they don't fit the model because of the size, width and being long haul. Its not a direct 767 replacement.

[Going Boeing]

they don't fit the model because of the size, width and being long haul. Its not a direct 767 replacement.

Unfortunately, neither is the A330-200 a direct B767 replacement - the transits take about 20 mins longer than a B767 so if used on shorter sectors (eg SYD-MEL) you get one less sector per day out of them (which is why they excel at East Coast to Perth flights). There's also issues with its wing span and the fact that it can't taxy as nimbly as the B767.

Unrelated of course, is that fact that pilots enjoy flying the B767 a lot more than the A330. :D

[Iver]

So, I imagine the Jetstar A330 pilots are looking forward to transitioning off of the sidestick as well. :}

Is it still the plan that the replaced Jetstar A330s will be converted to QF domestic aircraft for high-density routes?

[Ultergra]

Heard a rumour that the first 4 787's to Jetstar, will result in 4 A330's being returned to Qantas.

Thereafter, Jetstar will get the 787's and will put all remaining 330's on the East Coast - West Coast runs (Perth, Mel, Syd and Bne.) to compete with Virgin and hit them in the leisure market part of 'Veee-lo-city.'

[moa999]

Jetstar presently has 11 A330s so could well be a straight swap for that many, plus some expansion.
Would not be surprised if ultimately some end up in Singapore or Japan.

[ozaub]

How can QANTAS sell this to the media? Main line customers get the old gear and bogan pikers get to fly in the new, beaut., state of the art planes. QANTAS will have to give away many more I-pads!

[Eastwest Loco]

Ozaub

I would much rather ride in, and put my punters in a nice "old" 332 or 333 than a sardine class 787.

Much better to arrive a little dehydrated from the the aircon and free grog than to arrive with a festering case of DVT.

A total waste of a potentially wonderful aeropplane.

What would I know though. After all I think the 757-200 is one of the prettiest aeroplanes ever made.

Best all

EWL

[Sunfish]

Agree with EW and Oz. how to turn a positive - a nice shiny new technology aircraft into an immediate negative - fill it with sardine seats.

Then give mainline some clapped out airframes as well. A double negative.

[Dunnocks]

Goddang, Sunny, when you're right, you're right!!

[moa999]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment,
to call the A330s clapped out, given the 20y/o 747s and 767s running around is a bit rich :ugh:

[armchair quarterback]

I noticed that when booking a QF flight that the reference to aircraft type has been removed. Obvious attempt to disguise the fact that the 767s are up against the VA 330s

[Going Boeing]

Heard a rumour that the first 4 787's to Jetstar, will result in 4 A330's being returned to Qantas.

The plan that I heard is for Jetstar to take delivery of the 8 B787-8's that had the delivery dates brought forward, thus freeing up 8 A330-200's to be returned to QF mainline to replace the 7 RR powered B767 which are being retired. The RR B767's haven't had the ADS-B/FMC upgrade which becomes mandatory late 2013. I understand that eventually all A330's will transfer to mainline leaving the B787 as the sole widebody in Jetstar service.

As the A330's were in QF Domestic config when they were transferred to JQ, there is no re-config required. I don't know the condition of the cabins after a number of years operating in the LCC market.

[RENURPP]

I noticed that when booking a QF flight that the reference to aircraft type has been removed. Obvious attempt to disguise the fact that the 767s are up against the VA 330s

Obviously :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:
More incorrect rubbish. A very quick glance at QF flight Sydney to Perth shows the following.
Some people live in fantasy worlds.
Operated by Qantas
Departure: Sydney
Terminal 3
Date: Sat 24 Nov 12
Time: 17:50
Arrival: Perth
Terminal 4
Date: Sat 24 Nov 12
Time: 19:45
Meal: Dinner
Stopover: -
Total duration: 4h 55m
Aircraft type: Boeing 767-300/300ER - view aircraft/ seat map

[swh]

Rumour has it (from an engineer) that they are on the Boeing production line some with seats installed... Can't be changed to QF due to the particular seat configuration being the highest density set up by a 787 operator. A special type of sardine seat. Maybe it would make O'leary proud.....

Also hear they have removed the overhead crown crew rests.

Unfortunately, neither is the A330-200 a direct B767 replacement - the transits take about 20 mins longer than a B767 so if used on shorter sectors (eg SYD-MEL) you get one less sector per day out of them (which is why they excel at East Coast to Perth flights). There's also issues with its wing span and the fact that it can't taxy as nimbly as the B767.

Not to mention the 788 is over 20t heavier than a 763ER, add the winglets on the 763ER and you get about the same fuel burn for the same number of passengers on the east coast domestic hops.

How can QANTAS sell this to the media? Main line customers get the old gear and bogan pikers get to fly in the new, beaut., state of the art planes.

Singapore Airlines is doing the same with Scoot, all of their 787s are going to Scoot.

[ejectx3]

Sydney domestic gates for starters

[Going Boeing]

and please tell us where the wing span is an issue?
As ejectx3 said, "Sydney domestic gates for starters". As the A330 wingspan is about the same as a B747 classic, there are very few bays at domestic terminals that can accomodate them. The airbridges at the SYD domestic terminal can be relocated to allow aircraft with greater wingspan than the B767 but that will result in the loss of at least one bay (and every bay is needed). At other terminals such as BNE & MEL, where there are physical obstructions such as satellites etc making room for larger wingspans will be a serious problem.

Realllllllyyy, Can't taxy as nimbly?, what the F.....?

A QF management pilot was my source and he stated that the A330 has to taxy around corners at slower speeds than the B737 & B767 which results in increased taxy time and thus combined with the increased time to turn the A330 around, results in at least one less sector per day when used on shorter East coast domestic flights.

[zlin77]

Rumour in Narita on Thursday...787s in Japan!!

[Keg]

So what speeds do a a 767 taxy at around corners?

Depends on the corner. Tight 90 degrees, 10 knots same as you guys. Something you can do on the rudder pedals, a bit faster. Generally though, the 767 can take a longish corner (I'm thinking YMML westbound on echo turning south onto Alpha) a bit faster than can the A330. Given the chicanes that exist around the domestic network as well (Sydney) and restrictions on taxiways able to be used by A330s (Perth until relatively recently) this can make quite a bit of difference to the network.


Why is there a longer turn around time?

More people to get off on the single door. More people to get on through a single door. The 767 can do it relatively comfortably in 40 minutes (all else working to schedule). The A330 can't. If they get two doors up and going then they're as quick or quicker than us but not many gates around the domestic network can support two doors onto the A330.

It all adds up. The A330 is a bit more difficult to wrangle around the domestic network... apparently. I have no first hand experience, just observations. :ok:

[Taildragger67]

Singapore Airlines is doing the same with Scoot, all of their 787s are going to Scoot.

Perhaps but SQ mainline are getting 5 more A380s and a gaggle of A350s as well as still having (old technology) 777s and A330s to come from existing orders.

[Angle of Attack]

Scoot are getting 787-900's and they will stick the knife in very efficiently to compete with jetstar in their -800's, ironically they are getting the ones QF deferred, lol, a deer with no eyes comes to mind with jetstar, NO IDEA!

[moa999]

Scoot are getting 787-900's and they will stick the knife in very efficiently to compete with jetstar in their -800's, ironically they are getting the ones QF deferred, lol, a deer with no eyes comes to mind with jetstar, NO IDEA!

Total BS. The QF deliveries were deleted from the production list.
Pushed poeple up from about 2.5yrs late to 2.3yrs late (totally estimated numbers)

[Going Boeing]

Ex A380-800 driver, the A330's were ordered late 2000 and the first four delivered (2002-2003) were -200's configured for domestic use. They were initially used on the SYD-MEL route (which gave a lot of sectors for training purposes) and it was from this experience, they realised the increased transit time & taxy times caused it to operate one less sector per day than the B767's & B737's. Consequently, they were shifted to trans-continental flights to Perth where the number of transits were minimised and the low seat/mile costs made it very effective. John Borghetti knew all this which is why Virgin Blue (Australia) ordered A330's for the same routes. The lack of suitable bays at domestic terminals is a real problem which will have to be solved prior to the return of the JQ A332's next year.

I hope that completes the A330 domestic discussion & we can get the thread back to "JQ B787 Plans".

[Come in spinner]

Does anyone know the current delivery schedule for the 787?
When is the first one due to arrive and at what frequency will the next 14 be introduced?

[1A_Please]

As the A330 wingspan is about the same as a B747 classic, there are very few bays at domestic terminals that can accomodate them. The airbridges at the SYD domestic terminal can be relocated to allow aircraft with greater wingspan than the B767 but that will result in the loss of at least one bay (and every bay is needed). At other terminals such as BNE & MEL, where there are physical obstructions such as satellites etc making room for larger wingspans will be a serious problem

QF SYD currently has 2 dedicated A330 gates with dual airbridges. An A330 can also be accepted at Gate 7 but this will usually result on Gate 6 being blocked and the gate only has a single airbridge. QF could add additional A330/787 gates by redesigning the existing gates between T2 & T3. When JQ/QLink moved into T2, Geoff Dixon announced QF was going to build an airside link between T2 & T3. This has never happened. This link would also mean QF would be able to access the existing A330 capable gate in the JQ T2 concourse.

QF MEL currently has 3 dedicated A330 gates (7/21/23) with dual airbridges. Gate 11 can also accept A330s but only has a single airbridge. The airport master plan shows QF being able to add additional A330/787 capable gates by extending its eastern concourse.

VA is severely limited with A330 capacity in MEL with only Gate 12 being ideal, though I assume the redesign of T3 will overcome this. VA are about to open 4 A330 gates in SYD.

Regardless of whether QF domestic were to replace the 767s with A330s or 787s, they would have to confront the gate limitations due to the increased wingspans of the new planes. This is not news so it is strange that a decade after the A330 arrived, there has been little or no expansion to QF's terminals to cope with this issue.

[Captain Gidday]

Yes, but don't forget SACL's plans to rebuild the whole place with Qantas And Friends on the East side and Velocity And Friends over on the West. This involves Qantas giving up its lease to T3 early. So there is no incentive to spend money rejigging gates at present, or doing anything much really, if it's not going to be QF's for much longer.

[ditzyboy]

1A, please correct me if i am wrong, but the newly configured Gate 12/13 at Sydney Domestic can handle 330s using dual aerobridges. There is no net decrease in usable gates as 13 has been repositioned and 12 recreated. Such is my understanding of the notification we received.

[1A_Please]

Captain Gidday, the redevelopment plans are off. SACL needed to get the agreement of everyone and VA smelt a rat and said no!!!!

[pull-up-terrain]

If you have a read of this discussion (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/500312-787-performance.html) , the 787-8 sounds a bit of a dud. It is smaller than the A330 (in terms of pax). The range and fuel efficiency is only marginally better.

Qantas really needs the 787-9, that is similar size to the A330 (in terms of pax), and has better range compared to the 787-8 and A330.

I have to admit, i thought it was crazy that Qantas wasnt going to receive the 787-8 before jetstar, but when you think a bit logically about it, the 787-8 isnt the right tool for the job, it is a waste of money (for Qantas anyway).

[neville_nobody]

Captain Gidday, the redevelopment plans are off. SACL needed to get the agreement of everyone and VA smelt a rat and said no!!!!

Borghetti wouldn't agree because it gave QF a large competitive advantage in that the current domestic terminal is much closer to the city. In peak hour you can lose 30 mins just trying to get from Int'l to Domestic.

What really needs to happen is that they need to demolish the hangar between the Virgin/Tiger terminal and the GA. Except that it is own by people who are rich enough to stand up to SACL. They went to court and SACL lost. Why the hell SACL doesn't just build them a new hangar somewhere else is beyond me.

[crwjerk]

Qantas really needs the 787-9, that is similar size to the A330 (in terms of pax), and has better range compared to the 787-8 and A330.
It's exactly the same size in terms of 'size' as a A333.