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BPA
22nd Nov 2012, 20:53
From Plane Talking.


In other developments, Qantas is widely expected to announce an order for single aisle Airbus A319s for its Qantaslink regional brand in the near future, to the apprehension of pilots engaged by its full service domestic division.*

Qantas has a policy of not commenting on fleet speculation. But it does appear to be gearing up for more and newer jets in its Qantaslink operation, which given the growth of flights in that part of its domestic network, could reasonably be seen as inevitable.

blueloo
22nd Nov 2012, 21:55
Isn't this what killed Ansett.... A million different fleet types? (And no maintenance... Which QF is well on its way to achieving)

mustangranch
22nd Nov 2012, 22:15
No blu,
The land of the long white cloud and greed killed ansett.
Makes sense to consolidate on heavily trafficked regional routes to put a jet on it.

The Kelpie
22nd Nov 2012, 22:40
A deal done to negate losing heaps of cash for all those A320 options that may not now be needed??

Perhaps the order has just been changed to A319 instead.

More to follow.....for sure

The kelpie

Going Boeing
23rd Nov 2012, 00:23
The A319 is not as fuel efficient as the C Series so if QF does order them, it's probably because they need to reallocate some of the massive A320 order to avoid penalty payments. So again, Kelpie seems to be on the money.

PS Mustangranch, it appears that your anger at Air NZ causes you to ignore the years of raping & pillaging that News Corp carried out at Ansett prior to Air NZ buying into Ansett. They are guilty of not doing proper "Due Diligence" because if they had, they would have discovered just how serious a basket case Ansett had become at the hands of News Corp (who paid 100% of the CEO's salary).

Autobrakes4
23rd Nov 2012, 00:23
This is an absolute certainty. Only a matter of time now.

teggun
23rd Nov 2012, 00:34
I wonder how long it will be before AIPA seek some type of MOU with the regionals.

I think they may be disappointed with the response.:{

Transition Layer
23rd Nov 2012, 00:34
According to Australian Business Traveller on twitter, there's an "announcement about Domestic services" due this weekend at the unveiling of the latest QF A330.

32megapixels
23rd Nov 2012, 01:42
I would hate to say it, whilst I said that QantasLink was getting jets, perhaps the C-Series, I was close to the money! A319's will do! And lets hope its a free endorsement!

You don't bring in a management team with a 'no bshite' attitude like this one, without other motives. They 'set up' the original operations at Jetstar around 2004, and many of you have discredited them and thought, here comes another bunch of Qantas managers!



For those who questioned me, and said they will wait till they piss on the tyres, well, wait! Sunstate and Eastern will fly these! If you don't believe me, quit!

travelator
23rd Nov 2012, 02:05
I wouldn't write my victory speech just yet 32. Qantaslink has had jets for some years now. It is very possible that sunstate/eastern will operate these rumored Airbus seeing as all of a sudden AIPA are keen to bring Qlink guys into "their" seniority.

teggun
23rd Nov 2012, 02:07
32Mega,

I couldn't agree with you more, interesting even some of the most negative within the Regionals are now starting to believe it is going to happen.

I think people will be surprised at just how quickly as well.:ok:

These people have come here with a 2 year agenda, 6 months of that agenda has already gone, thats the time frame you are looking at if not sooner.

Going Boeing
23rd Nov 2012, 02:24
Some of you guys don't get it - all AIPA is trying to do is to develop unity in the pilot profession so that we are all treated fairly with reasonable terms and conditions as well as fair career progression. They are not trying to keep all the jobs in mainline or to stop regional pilots from flying jets - they are simply trying to minimise the QF management's "Divide & Conquer" tactics. We (the pilot group) do not need each other undercutting t's & c's to accelerate career progression at the expense of others. :ugh:

32megapixels
23rd Nov 2012, 02:35
GB,

I agree. Formally a member of AIPA and AFAP at one time, I don't think there is a 'stab them in the back' attitude from either side.

We are meant to be as one and Virgin are on that path. Why isn't the Qantas Group pilots! It is actually a pathetic and discusting thing in our industry that we are not and when we think that one side will benefit over another, it is really dissapointing.

One thing that I had said to me 2 years ago by a Qantas Cadet (bumped into him in Singapore), now at Qantas logging P3 time was, QantasLink is just 'training ground' for Qantas pilots.

Please, shoot me! It is GA or the airforce that is a good learning envirnment, not Qlink. Qlink has been a mind field of changing SOP's for many years. I do hope that this new management throw out the FCOM and start again. They will!

We have a great company here, and as one who has been burnt by the big Q, in regards to career progression, I would say these cadets on the bottem end of the list at Qantas may want group seniority that is great. It is even better for those who worked their butts off in entry into this industry from other avenues that should benefit the most, as they will appreciate it more!

teggun
23rd Nov 2012, 02:38
Well where were AIPA when Qantas purchased Australian Airlines, they were able to come to a Y arrangement with the seniority list then without to much trouble, they could have just as easily pushed for a W arrangement to include the Regionals but they didn't.

You can't now come back and say lets forget about the past and start again, just because the tide is starting to turn a different way.:eek:

32megapixels
23rd Nov 2012, 02:47
teggun.


This is about the next 30 year view, not that last 15-20 years of bullshit! This is why we are where we are now!

Yes, we all have our motives (does '89 ring a bell) Why do pilots do call ins? We are selfish by nature! It is human nature. Doesn't matter what industry!

The Aipa approach now, why? and u say get stuffed!

I agree as well due to that fact I have been dicked around, but not by AIPA!

But by poor management practices at Qantas than by fellow pilots!

teggun
23rd Nov 2012, 02:52
Sorry, 32 its all very well to say that is the past, correct. Would AIPA be trying to do anything for the regionals now unless it was going to benefit them not likely.

DirectAnywhere
23rd Nov 2012, 02:53
Shiny Jet Syndrome has about a 12 month use-by-date.

32megapixels
23rd Nov 2012, 03:00
Teggun,

of course it may benefit them,

but maybe we will be find benefits down the track also. Think big! I can't believe how rooted this industry is. It is not Aus either.

Was overseas when pilots went on strike due to a FO being kicked of flight deck due to captain upset. Guess what, both unions told each pilot sides to get stuffed and went on strike. Way to root up my holiday..almost. On full fare paying tickets as well!

Perhaps if Aipa did move into regional this could happen? hmm. food for thought!

Toruk Macto
23rd Nov 2012, 03:34
Mainline guys can apply off the street for any positions available at Qlink and cross their fingers Qantas does not control the numbers, if they don't want you to move across then it won't happen .

QFLINK717
23rd Nov 2012, 03:59
Where's this leave Cobham. Could these replace the Boeing 717
which Qantas are searching for more for East Coast ops for
new BNE base set up ?

Don Diego
23rd Nov 2012, 04:14
AIPA are in deep poo and are desperate to find a way out and that is the only reason they bother themselves with "Regoinals". :=

Ultergra
23rd Nov 2012, 04:14
Qantas Flight, Qantas Pilot.. Can't use that line anymore.

Good on Qlink for getting jets. It's not the pilots who make these decisions, it's management. Lets just all sit back, watch and listen, and if some pilots are gifted shiney jets, then good for them. They are not scabs taking other pilots jobs, they are a product of management decisions.

tenretni
23rd Nov 2012, 04:24
To all the people at Eastern (QLINK) i truly hope you get your jets.

As an ex Eastern driver and now a QF 737 Capt i ask that you consider that there are people on this side of the fence that want nothing more than unity amongst us so that we dont turn the pay and conditions into a joke.

Goodluck and dont sell yourselves short in the rush to fly these things.

Trust me when i say that a jet is just another airplane. A jet should represent a quantum leap in pay and thats what really matters.

32megapixels
23rd Nov 2012, 04:32
I agree, a jet is just another aircraft.


Yet, Emirates doesn't think so!


And the pay scale doesn't think so, although I carry almost up to 74x5 = 370 pax a day and get 108k/yr! compare that to a a330 capt per day??????? 1 take off 1 landing!

And you wonder why I am pissed at being a regional pilot! Not by choice. I was told, you will fly the A380 or B747. I said, "yeah right, I have been duped before''. Their answer, "we are Qantas, we are not like those GA operators you have experienced before". F me! Every airline in Australia is a GA operator as far as I am concerned at the moment!


I hope Qlink get the jets! Just remember one thing, aviation is not a career to recommend to your kids!

leakyboats
23rd Nov 2012, 04:47
No no no, what you guys need is to join AIPA and ask for a MOU. Then you can give away your commands for nothing in return. Sign up to AIPA like I did and give them three grand to tell you that unity is whats needed. Then wake up one day to find out that AIPA hate your own pilot reps because they stand up for you. Their own idea of unity is to undermine, attack, slander or force out of office anyone who doesn’t promote the AIPA vision. Woe betide anyone who thinks for themselves or disagrees publically with the AIPA mantra. Soon you will be left with a pilot council that parrots the AIPA spin and is incapable of independent thought.

The best thing you can do is back your own reps that have got you into a position where you are about to enjoy your chance at a jet. Tell the fly by night charlatans and snake oil salesmen to nick off. We all want you to fly the jet for as much coin as possible, but it is for our own self interest. Anyone who tells you different is lying. Good Luck.:ok:

tenretni
23rd Nov 2012, 04:55
Leakyboats,

Its unfortunate you feel that way, and i dare say there are many others like you feeling the same. If these jets are slated for Eastern/Sunnies you are going to get 1 and only 1 chance to secure proper pay and conditions.

Whether you do it on your own or with AIPA isn't really that important.
Just don't blow it.

All the best.

newsensation
23rd Nov 2012, 05:35
Pay and conditions are in the current Sunstate and Eastern EBA's, they have been for nearly 3 years.....
AIPA is a spent force as far as i can see, the only good they could do to unify Australian pilots is to forget their differences and join with the AFAP to create one body representing pilots.

Capt Basil Brush
23rd Nov 2012, 06:21
Before all the sunnies and eastern people get too excited, is it possible they will be replacing the 717's and crewed by cobham? (That's if there is any truth to the rumour)

No doubt QF would put the flying out to tender to the cheapest pilot group, and cobham would have to take a pay cut to get the flying. That seems to be how it works.

Fonz121
23rd Nov 2012, 06:42
While I would like this to be true, I can't see where A319's would fit into the schedule? Surely with the Q400's being so efficient and often not full they are the better option for the Qlink routes?

Unless this is a ploy to replace mainline routes with a lower cost base (which wouldn't surprise me) then I don't see how they would be beneficial to the business.

Ollie Onion
23rd Nov 2012, 07:00
Surely if this does happen it will just mean Qantas are able to undercut mainline domestic and deploy the new aircraft on some of the 'thinner' domestic routes giving a premium alternative to J* but not at Qantas costs. Just the spiral continuing downwards.

DJ737
23rd Nov 2012, 07:10
Before all the sunnies and eastern people get too excited, is it possible they will be replacing the 717's and crewed by cobham?

How about :
Before all the sunnies and eastern people get too excited, is it possible they will be crewed by Jetstar (both Tech & Cabin)? :E

RENURPP
23rd Nov 2012, 07:14
The only thing likely is that most people here wouldn't have a clue, and I include myself on that list.

I do get a laugh out of teggun and 32 wetting their little panties with excitement though.

QFLINK717
23rd Nov 2012, 07:52
Qantas have just invested a lot of cash in
full refurb and repaints the Boeing 717 cabins to that of
the new Boeing 737 cabins with an extra 10 seats.
First aircraft just online all 13 will be complete
Within 12 months .

gordonfvckingramsay
23rd Nov 2012, 08:34
Has anyone considered that this may be a stroke of genius from QF? All three QLINK operators (Sunstate, Eastern and Cobham) are low cost base operators flying on behalf of QF. How can QF get a better deal for QF?

Options are:

1) Dangle jets in front of the two turboprop operations thus encouraging them to put up the best (cheapest) offer they can in order to secure the jet contract. This pits the turboprop operators against one another and their staff.

2) Give Cobham the hint that they may not have the jet contract for long thus encouraging them to put up the best (cheapest) offer they can in order to re-secure the jet contract. This pits them against their staff too.

Keeps everyone nervous and makes them feel like they constantly need to "sharpen their pencils". Stock standard divide and conquer technique, fear is the key.

Who would have thought; a safety critical industry that works on fear and money. :*

bubble.head
23rd Nov 2012, 08:38
A mate of a mate of a mate suggests that the a319s are already in production slot with the company named "Qantas"

Bang Bus
23rd Nov 2012, 08:57
Where is the Townsville refueler when you need him?? :ok:

Stink Finger
23rd Nov 2012, 08:59
Did you know that since 2001, there has been 232 threads speculating the arrival of jets for Qlink.


IMHO, this thread is bordering on homo-erotic, how else could you describe the panty wetting and public johnson stroking.

Stop smoking crack.

AIPA, Pfffttttt !.

dutch_oven
23rd Nov 2012, 09:10
Stink Finger, some may tell you to pull your finger out. But I agree. It ain't gonna happen. But if you ever see a Qlink painted A319 on bay 6 at brissy with a pilot pissing on it's tyres, that will be me.

RENURPP
23rd Nov 2012, 09:30
As I said it may well be on the cards, who would really know?

The 717s are here for a while, BUT extra ones are hard to come by. When they decide to replace them it wont be overnight, there may well be two types for some time. 767/A330.
Who would crew them is the wet dream that some are having and the answer is, who knows, but teggun and 32 must be due a nappy change thinking about it. I worry about people who are so myopic being in command of an aircraft that I may be a passenger.

I have to say I am a bit nervous about my future, but I can't change it, so I will get on with the present and see what happens.

Fingers crossed we all ave jobs we enjoy!

RU/16
23rd Nov 2012, 09:36
Cobham will crew them, they are the jet operator for Qantas and have been for a long time. They are separate form QF so there are no MOUs required and no none can demand slots as they are not owned by QF , it is the future , outsourcing . The group has become to expensive.
Cobham are cheap and offer a complete service, cabin crew, operations engineering, training etc etc all in house, QF just fil the seats and pay the charge , leave the dramas to the Cobham management.
Looking at some of the posts probably for the best.

Buckshot
23rd Nov 2012, 09:42
Qantas have just invested a lot of cash in
full refurb and repaints the Boeing 717 cabins to that of
the new Boeing 737 cabins with an extra 10 seats.
First aircraft just online all 13 will be complete
Within 12 months

Almost a certainty they're getting rid of them then :rolleyes:

AviatoR21
23rd Nov 2012, 10:36
Where about is this article on plane talking??

BPA
23rd Nov 2012, 10:38
It's in the story about the 787's to Perth.

hoss
23rd Nov 2012, 10:39
Can't wait to piss on the tyres as well and I don't even work there!

Infact, Jarse and Smart Glasses will come over to bay 18 tomorrow and piss on the Q400 tyres anyway ;).

In all seriousness, fingers crossed for all mates at EAA and SSA.

AviatoR21
23rd Nov 2012, 10:44
Well sounds to me like everybody is getting excited, I wouldn't be suprised if Qantas mainline just decide to move their surplus pilots into the front seat of these A319's.

dr_doLiTTle
23rd Nov 2012, 11:14
Dreamliner debut planned by Qatar for Perth next month | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/22/dreamliner-debut-now-planned-by-qatar-for-perth-next-month/)

scumbag
23rd Nov 2012, 12:05
so so sad (pathetic) to watch...

Mstr Caution
23rd Nov 2012, 13:41
The plan makes perfect sense.........after all it is Qantas management at it's best.


Send B787's to Jetstar where no Boeing types exist.

Reduce pilot numbers on the 767's where there's plenty of Boeing widebody experience.

Send Airbus's to QFlink where no Jet or airbus has flown before.

These guys are absolutely brilliant.

donpizmeov
23rd Nov 2012, 14:46
It would seem new aircraft end up everywhere except QF mainline. Interesting way to run a full service airline.

The Don

DirectAnywhere
23rd Nov 2012, 14:52
As much as I hate to admit it, RU/16's post is one of the smartest I've read in a while (see page 2). The cheapest pilots will fly any new aeroplanes. If that happens to be you have fun but remember, reality bites.

We're all going to get f$&ked over - Mainline, JQ or QFLink - by management. It's merely a question of how long it takes and how it happens.

For those who suggest the QFLink guys shoudn't sell themselves short - it's a fait accompli. Single aisle jets are already in the EA. The pilots have NO OPPORTUNITY TO NEGOTIATE. They will be forced to accept the conditions in the EA or continue flying turboprops while DE pilots fly any new jets.

vigi-one
23rd Nov 2012, 20:03
Some people need to have a pill and a lay down.

Look at the facts, sectors not crewed on the rosters, come the new year there will be a line out the door to Jstar and should Virgin start to pick up their hold file it will be more messy for commands than already is. MFO and group have just returned from Toronto having purchased a new 400 sim for Bris and he and the top 4 who now have been told to fly a few times a roster will return to Toronto in the new year to complete 400 endorsements (note not in Sydney). No current routes would support a jet against the economies of the current fleet (SYD - GLA excluded)

If jets are on the horizon the current management are not going to let current employees jump stright into the seat. There will be a long transition period most likely with current mainline employees on secondment so this could blow out to well past 2018 for current Qlink employees.

Keg
23rd Nov 2012, 20:47
No current routes would support a jet against the economies of the current fleet.....

Therein is the rub. If the Link ends up with A319s they won't be for current routes. They'll be for routes where QF wants a premium presence at a lower cost.

The next thing that may happen is if the link gets A319s then A320s and A321s aren't will be the logical next step in the medium to long term. There's the replacement of the mainline 737 fleet in the long term at costs more than a 1/3 cheaper than current rates.

teggun
23rd Nov 2012, 21:51
Hi Keg,

It's almost as if you have seen the management blueprint.

Renurpp,

I am not sure which part of QLink you are with, or if you are a part of it at all. However if you are unable to see what is going on, I feel you should be more concerned about your own state of mind rather than mine.:hmm:

AviatoR21
23rd Nov 2012, 21:54
Since when did Ben Sandilands who is after all a journalist become such a trustworthy source. For all we know the rumour spread so far and wide that some mainline pilot told him apprehensively as he writes, so now it's gospel?

traindriver33
23rd Nov 2012, 22:22
vigi-one, Qlink are already using jets on many routes and making a motza. 717's are flying BN-GLA, BN-ROK, BN-MKY. Fokker100s are doing BN-EML, and the list goes on.

As for sending mainline pilots to Qlink to fly the jets, why on earth would a QF captain/FO want to take a huge pay cut to fly a single aisle jet on regional routes? It may apeal to an SO, but i hardly think an SO would be up to the task. Regional flying in the front seat requires a bit more than making coffee for the skipper and radio calls above transition.

RENURPP
23rd Nov 2012, 22:54
Hi Teggun,
I can see whats going on, I just can't read the future. (neither can you)
after 30 yrs of listening to people like you get all excited about what they perceive is about to happen in this industry, only to be severely disappointed i am amused. Some things don't change.

Your like a little kid who can see some one walking towards them with an ice cream, is the ice cream for you or one of the other little kids around you?

Getting all excited and writing posts on a BB won't make it any more definite. Dont wet your panties in anticipation, all the other kids will laugh at you!

dr_doLiTTle
23rd Nov 2012, 22:59
Would not want to be leaving Qlink just yet that's for sure. Just incase.

travelator
24th Nov 2012, 00:59
Good analogy except there is a flaw. There is only a rumor of somebody coming with an ice cream.

RENURPP
24th Nov 2012, 01:16
Correct, and a major flaw.

I should have said one with something looks like an ice cream from a fair old distance.

Toruk Macto
24th Nov 2012, 01:20
Good luck to Qlink drivers , there is many quietly hoping this comes of for you as a group you deserve a break .

grrowler
24th Nov 2012, 01:30
Would not want to be leaving Qlink just yet that's for sure. Just incase.

This is what I was told before I started, during my employment there, and when I resigned. For various reasons - jets, mainline integration, integration even between sunnies/ eaa, commands, etc, etc. In my 4 years there none of the above happened, and I know these things have been hot topics for many more years than I was there. I left, best thing I ever did, just wish I had done it earlier.

I sincerely hope the long serving,loyal and generally top crew on the tprops do get a chance at jets, however history would suggest otherwise. Just promise you won't hold your breath waiting or you will do yourself an injury. Personally I believe the grass is much greener elsewhere. :ok:

RENURRP, is the person in the distance with something that looks like an icecream walking out of the Coogee Bay Hotel
Confirmed: Poo in ice-cream - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-10-29/confirmed-poo-in-ice-cream/186236)

Keg
24th Nov 2012, 04:24
The interesting part here is that Ben may be getting his info from some sources who have sourced it from PPRUNE. Then he writes about it and PPRUNE lights up because Ben's said that the link is getting the A319. A self propagating and fulfilling rumour?

dr_doLiTTle
24th Nov 2012, 05:55
Ben is at it again.

But that could change if the signs that Qantaslink is moving to add a new jet to its lineup in addition to Boeing 717s materialises in the form of A319s, or the A319 NEOs

Airbus A319 with sharklets makes a timely first flight | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/24/airbus-a319-with-sharklets-makes-a-timely-first-flight/)

Oriana
24th Nov 2012, 07:05
Apart from the fact that the A319 is a longer range variant of the A320.:rolleyes:

Why not just get 320's? Where are QLink gonna go with 3700nm range and a smaller aeroplane??

PS If they DO get jets - the C-Series would make sense.

Skystar320
24th Nov 2012, 07:42
Sadly its looking more and more likely that Qantas or Qantaslink will be getting the A319's

With Qantas's massive order for Airbus's and the cancellation of the 'asia' plans Qantas has got to put those aircraft to good use!

Jetstar cant swallow that growth... Got to end up somewhere!

BPA
24th Nov 2012, 07:58
The range of the A319 is perfect for FIFO ops from the East Coast to Northern WA.

markis10
24th Nov 2012, 19:57
Would not max sense for them to be new given the large number of cheap secondhand ones on the market.

airdualbleedfault
24th Nov 2012, 22:10
The range of the A319 is perfect for FIFO ops from the East Coast to Northern WA.

Last time I flew one, the 320 could do east coast to west too.

gutso-blundo
24th Nov 2012, 22:36
...but not return, without having to take on significant fuel at a mine site...

Ollie Onion
24th Nov 2012, 22:42
Fact of the matter is that Qantas put in a massive order for A320's recently, these were all convertible to A321's and A319's. A good proportion of them were earmarked to go to the premium carrier that Qantas at the time was going to set up in Asia. Now that venture is dead in the water, Jetstar has already got the number of new aircraft on order that are required for the expansion plans.

Qantas may as well deploy the remainder in Australia. Talk of the C-series being a better fit is largely irrelevant due to the orders already being placed. The A319 is a top machine and perfect for domestic ops. Easyjet up until 2 - 3 years ago only had the A319 as the A320 didn't make commercial sense.

Why not deploy them to Qantaslink, they can be sold to the airline as the shiny new jet for the crew to gain experience in return for accepting a contract below Qantas mainline and even possibly below the Jetstar EBA. The pilot group will accept it as we come over all 'giddy' when offered a new type on the licence, long term thinking doesn't come into it. Before we know it we will have a new 'bottom' level for Jet pilots in Australia and Qantas can continue to re-build its domestic premium network at a much lower cost base.

mince
25th Nov 2012, 03:15
Anyone who believes that airlines will make a commercial decision of this kind with any regard to what the pilots think or want is delusional.

bubble.head
25th Nov 2012, 05:47
Anyone who believes that airlines will make a commercial decision of this kind with any regard to what the pilots think or want is delusional.

What about ex-pilot's thinking? aka J.G.

Virgin Tiger just announced their A320s will operate between Sydney and Coffs Harbour to take on the 'link. Shoeless passengers of Coffs Harbour rejoice!

Going Boeing
25th Nov 2012, 06:25
Anyone who believes that airlines will make a commercial decision of this kind with any regard to what the pilots think or want is delusional.

I suspect that you have mis-read the posts on this thread. Pilots know that they are not in a position to make decisions about aircraft acquisitions, they are merely speculating about what decisions management will make and WHY!

Commercial decisions are never straight-forward and are influenced by many factors such as politics and "loss of face". Selection of the A319 over the C series may look good in the short term but would look poor as fuel prices increase over the service life of the aircraft.

old rope
25th Nov 2012, 08:32
Also the future of the C series is nowhere near being assured yet, and delivery times are some considerable distance away. Very few local operators are going to invest in what may turn out to be an orphan, or at the very least, the Fokker of its day.

mince
25th Nov 2012, 09:40
I suspect that you have mis-read the posts on this thread. Pilots know that they are not in a position to make decisions about aircraft acquisitions, they are merely speculating about what decisions management will make and WHY!

What I am saying is pilots will never have any influence on the decisions management take eg "if we get some jets at least the pilots will be happy" type of thinking doesn't exist.

Management view pilots in the same way as FUEL.
A somewhat costly and obstructive yet absolutely necessary expense.

DirectAnywhere
25th Nov 2012, 10:10
They do think, however, "If we get jets and let the QANTASLINK guys fly them under their existing EA they'll jump at the chance to get their hands on a jet and they'll willingly undercut their colleagues in Mainline by 30-40% allowing us to set a new low benchmark in narrow body pilot salaries in Australia further destroying QANTAS' legacy conditions and improving our own KPIs and bonuses.

We'll rename QANTASLINK to plain old QANTAS, remove mainline flights from trunk routes, including the golden triangle, citing increased competitive pressures from Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger. We'll stick business class seats in the aeroplanes and our plan to decimate the terms and conditions of QANTAS pilots will be complete.".

Management know pilots want jet commands and many will sell their own grandmother to get one. I guarantee that will influence the decisions management take.

Or am I being too cynical?:hmm:

moa999
25th Nov 2012, 10:17
What rates does Skywest (given the Virgin takeover) pay on its single A320, and how does that compare to Qantas or QantasLink.
Because that will be the competition for the FIFO jobs.

bagchucka
25th Nov 2012, 10:17
colleagues in Mainline

that's a pretty loose term...

32megapixels
25th Nov 2012, 10:19
DA, No, but your being something else that starts with a "c".

Toruk Macto
25th Nov 2012, 10:38
There's a first " colleagues in mainline " 20 years and its the first time to hear that .

DirectAnywhere
25th Nov 2012, 10:45
Fine, replace "colleagues" with "those overpaid competitors".

My point is, if the rumours are true, that is exactly what ExCo will be thinking.

32MP, perhaps you could spell it out for me? I'm a little tired this evening - big day at work. I'm not sure why you seem to be criticising me for illustrating the attitude that managers in QANTAS have towards their staff. The divide and conquer strategy has worked well so far, pilots have shown their willingness to play their role in this strategy and it looks as if it's about to get another run.

32megapixels
25th Nov 2012, 10:58
DA, I agree with you. This is not by choice whether I get to fly a jet at Qlink or not. I and many of the colleagues here refused to pay for endorsements with Jetstar and Virgin, yet we would be Captains there now! And yet we are stuck on 120-130 grand a year! We are the ones that stayed and stood up for our industry.

Intact, many of us got screwed by Qantas. Infact, about 15 of us should be working at Qantas mainline now! Incompitence fleet planning and shrinking of Qantas international has had us stay here on garbage conditions and we work just as hard, if not harder the our colleagues in mainline.

So if we get jets, don't be critical for your own selfish reasons. We have put up with a great deal of shite with many changes over the last few years that has seen my hair receed somewhat.

You say we are undercutting you! Wake up! Your just lucky you weren't at Ansett where those guys lost their livelihoods! Get off your high horse!

DirectAnywhere
25th Nov 2012, 11:15
32MP, it doesn't affect me directly - I don't have a horse in this race.

As I stated, I'm merely trying to illustrate that in spite of what some may believe, management know what pilots want and what they will do to get it. That will influence the decision making process regarding the allocation of capital.

I'm not having a dig at you or those in a similar position. I, like many of us, have many friends in QANTASLINK. If I have offended your sensibilities, I apologise but I'm not naive enough to see the deployment of any jet to QANTASLINK as anything other than an attempt to further drive down pilot salaries and conditions in this country.

Anyway, enough from me. Goodnight to you.

scumbag
25th Nov 2012, 11:16
32mp

you are embarrassing everyone at qlink.
your arrogance is breathtaking!

as they say... 'give it a bone!'

please...

Toruk Macto
25th Nov 2012, 11:45
Don't see what he needs to be embarrassed about ? He made his point . Think some people are a bit sensitive .

QFLINK717
25th Nov 2012, 22:17
Just keep an eye on seek or the Cobham-National Jet website after all there the Qantaslink Jet operator. Almost sure they will advertise for more drivers when a new QLINK Jet type enters the fleet . Qantas and Cobham have a healthy relationship and its a lean machine and a good money maker and set up for QF has been for 21 years now. Dust of those resumes rather than fight over seniority lists.:ugh:

32megapixels
26th Nov 2012, 03:59
32mp

you are embarrassing everyone at qlink.
your arrogance is breathtaking!

as they say... 'give it a bone!'

please...


Why would saying I stood up for our industry is such?

Why would one not want to work hard and be rewarded as such for that hard work! And why would one think that by paying their way to the top would bring a sense of achievement?


I don't bring any undue disrespect to QantasLink. I do get insulted though when I am told I am undercutting someone else and affecting their career!

What ever happened to being rewarded for showing results! More like, I have money and I can pay for this job! I deserve to fly a jet!

Scumbag, you are just that!

I hope Qlink get jets to provide these fellow collegues with the ability to pay off their homes quicker and provide a lifestyle some have worked so hard for! That is all.

If it isn't so, well it is out of our control! We get on and move on!

Hugh Jarse
26th Nov 2012, 04:53
Just to clarify: Qantaslink already has jets. They would be operated by Cobham "the Qantaslink jet operator" (according to Kumar). Yes, I know he's gone.

I remember all the hassles EAA/SA had getting the Space Shuttle (sorry, Q400) on the AOC. IMO, I can't see it happening, although it would be nice. Yes, I know they have some JQ people there in (mis)management.

However, it makes more sense in these QF penny-pinching days to have Cobham do the ground work for a new (to Qantaslink) jet type. They have the experience and runs on the board as the "Qantaslink jet operator".

Good luck to the boys at Eastern and Sunnies though. I hope something comes through for you, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Just remember, the carrot has been dangled at you for almost 20 years now.

It's a bit wrinkled and smelly........:)

Engineer_aus
26th Nov 2012, 07:44
Network has a Jet AOC.... Owned by Qantas. I am sure Cobham are no longer needed now?

airdualbleedfault
26th Nov 2012, 11:24
Maybe that should read " qantaslink have a wholly owned subsidiary that operàte jets " namely Network, and also a contractor that operate jets, namely Cobham.
Just playing the devils advocate here but the general attitude from Qlink pilots ( Eastern, Sunstate ) seems to be that they have done the hard yards and have some sort of right to operate jets. Did you all get told at your interview that you would be flying a jet in X years or did they interview you for a Dash 8 position, just saying.......

What The
26th Nov 2012, 11:32
Yep.

Sunstate turns on Eastern.

Network turns on Cobham.

They all turn on each other.

Oldmeadow wins again!!!!!!!

mcgrath50
26th Nov 2012, 11:36
Sunstate turns on Eastern.

Network turns on Cobham.

They all turn on each other.

Isn't that what the regionals did in America leading to the Buffalo crash?

ramius315
26th Nov 2012, 15:29
Do Bagchuka and Toruk Macto notice the irony that their posts merely prove the veracity of DirectAnywhere's post #76 on this thread? :hmm:

Josh Cox
26th Nov 2012, 20:07
Sunstate turns on Eastern.

That will not happen.

SPATFA
26th Nov 2012, 22:33
Does anyone know where Sandilands got this info from to start this RUMOUR? Why would a source within Qantas who is privy to this information tell a journalist of all people :suspect:

Why would they give it to SSA when they have Network? or even Jetstar who have airbus's.

Sounds like the latest Qlink management spin to keep its pilots? First they told Qlink pilots the new 717's in BNE were destined for SSA, now they've upped it to a A319.

32MP, wasn't there even a rumour going around the BNE crew room that Qantas was going to buy Cobham in the near future so that would be an avenue to a jet? :rolleyes:

Toruk Macto
27th Nov 2012, 00:02
Radius I sense you may be AIPA affiliated , using big words , thinking we will feel intimidated and pull our heads in so you can walk over the top of the group which I may add is probable bigger than mainline by now . That tactic is getting a bit old . Time to try something new.

Going Boeing
27th Nov 2012, 02:55
Toruk Macto, a read of your many short posts causes me to reach two conclusions:

1. Your anger and bitterness obscures your ability to reason, and,
2. You are ill informed and need to do more research to get the facts.

grrowler
27th Nov 2012, 05:49
That will not happen. Yeah that happened years ago with the Q400 and CB base.

Josh Cox
27th Nov 2012, 06:21
grrowler,

Times have changed.

Toruk Macto
27th Nov 2012, 07:05
GB , guess you would suggest I ask someone in AIPA to inform me how it really happened ! If only the world would confirm to the AIPA mantra then we all could be saved . Yes I'm angry , the attitude is pissing me off . I will give it a rest as this is not doing me any good .

Back in my box but still watching !

Keg
27th Nov 2012, 07:32
I will give it a rest as this is not doing me any good .

Probably for the best. It appears that posting on PPRUNE may be affecting your perception. How else to explain that you reckon that mainline drivers have an 'attitude' and you can't see yours screaming through the keyboard.

If you want to talk to a QF driver and see that we're not out to eat your young then send me a PM with a phone number and I'll give you a call and we'll catch up for a beer. My shout. :ok:

grrowler
27th Nov 2012, 07:38
uh huh josh, so you meant to say this won't happen again. Out of interest, who's eba has the cheapest jet pay at the moment, that's where it would go if it went to the turboprop operator/s. Anyway, good to see there is no undercutting going on.

And 32m, I believe your stance is admirable (apart from the fact qlink were charging for endo's for a while?), but if you still think your hard work will be rewarded there, then you are the eternal optimist.

Mstr Caution
27th Nov 2012, 22:45
Question: How long has the Qantaslink EBA included the jet clause?

I don't know the answer, just curious.

MC

skysook
27th Nov 2012, 22:54
Eastern had the jet pay scale introduced into it's EBA in 2010. The sunstate pay scale was introduced into their respective EBA sometime prior to this. Hope that helps...

missing link
28th Nov 2012, 02:17
Casa won't issue a AOC for jet ops without "Jet experienced crew".... Alla
Southerrn and the 146's. I could see redundancies being threatened in the domestic operation with the carrot..... "But we will need 50 - 100 crew in Qlink for the 320/319......of course we can't take you all, so first in - "
I think people will jump rather than risk losing their jobs.
Just a thought:rolleyes:

noclue
28th Nov 2012, 03:29
"Casa won't issue a AOC for jet ops without "Jet experienced crew"

Missing Link: are you 100% sure about that? Is there a reference or some other document that sets out what jet experience crew would need?

Capt Claret
28th Nov 2012, 05:34
Rumour has it that the Southern Australian introduction of the BAe146 ran over budget to the order of 100%. Kendall's jet introduction was far more costly than expected with much longer training times than expected.

This doesn't mean that Eastern or Sunnie's pilots can't fly jets, but it does indicate that for a large fleet replacement and retraining program, the costs are very high. It's hard to understand why QF would expose itself to such costs.

Train a whole lot of people to fly the Dashes, to release the existing Dash pilots to get endorsed on the A319. Perhaps direct entry commands for both. Plus the possibility of contract pilots for some period, to massage the introduction. A whole lot of room just there for industrial unease, I'd think.

TheWholeEnchilada
28th Nov 2012, 06:03
This doesn't mean that Eastern or Sunnie's pilots can't fly jets, but it does indicate that for a large fleet replacement and retraining program, the costs are very high. It's hard to understand why QF would expose itself to such costs.Spite would be the intuitive answer, although they probably calculate the cost of keeping everyone "divided and conquered" and thus not having a critical mass as a unified group exceeds the training costs.
Pilots fall for the oldmeadow trap every time.

newsensation
28th Nov 2012, 07:27
lets take a punt,
Eastern and Sunstate will come together under one AOC
If the next aircraft for Qlink (eastern and sunstate) is an airbus type then you could expect J* pilots to be there for up to 12 months while current pilots are trained and gain experience.
Qantas will eventually bring all contracted flying in-house and depending on loads it will be given to Qantas domestic or Qlink.
Qantaslink changes its name....

Mstr Caution
28th Nov 2012, 08:41
Wouldn't that be hilarious.

A JQ/QFlink MOU exchange on career opportunities.

Fast forward to 2021 where QFlink have replaced Jetstar on domestic sectors.

A. QFlink FO's joining post 2013 are complaining JQ pilots are taking their commands.

B. QFlink are making command opportunities available in West Wyalong only with a 3 year base freeze.

C. Due an absence of interest for the West Wyalong commands the Link guys & girls attempt to delete ghost numbers from the seniority list.

&

D. Link pilots attempt to withdraw from the MOU without consultation with other parties to the MOU.

bugsquash1
28th Nov 2012, 11:15
Normally Claret I love your posts.:ok:
Suggesting QF have any clue as to what's going on surprises me to no end.
Too many Clarets?:E

BTW 146's were not 100% over.
For others, all dash pilots got through the course no worries and the jet experience can be F/O's.

Having flown different jets and Turbo-props I would suggest Turbo-props more complex failures and jets just take a bit more forward planning for the speed.

In the end great discussion but Jets for Qlink Bahahahahaha!

Valley of Hinnom
28th Nov 2012, 21:57
QLink have picked up Mr GC, he was the HOFO with a mob in FNQ. He is actually a pretty good bloke so it will be a good addition to Q.
Maybe they have turned a corner?

airdualbleedfault
29th Nov 2012, 01:00
Clarrie is right, maybe not 100% but a huge blowout, I believe the last NJS influence left around 18 months after start up with Southern.
The question I would ask is with Qantas not exactly setting the world on fire profit wise, would they really want to start another jet subsidiary, almost from scratch, when they already have jetstar, Network and Cobham, with Jetstar already operating the type.
I don't think it's about who is good enough to fly what, it's about the bean counter numbers.
Bug, you may be right about failures but its the inertia and GS that the T/Prop guys have trouble with, not saying they can't do it, it just takes longer, but if you're right I guess you'll find out soon enough.

yadot
29th Nov 2012, 01:37
I would like to refer many readers to this website for further information. It is that from airbus

A319 aircraft: A319 range, specifications (dimensions, seating capacity, performance), cabin | Airbus*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer (http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/passengeraircraft/a320family/a319/)


It is a good aircraft.

Remember, with all the speculation and crap going on with "APA2" disruptions, I hope no further distractions occur at Qlink! It is a good part of the Qantas business and has great potential to reap money out of pockets of passengers. Just compare the cost of a flight from Brisbane to Moranbah, or Gladstone - compared to flying to Singapore!!!! It is called return on investment.

Qlink has that advantage at the moment!

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-EZEG (CN: 2181) easyJet Airbus A319-111 by Jeffrey Schäfer (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7343711&nseq=19)

Transition Layer
29th Nov 2012, 02:31
What on earth is the Captain doing with his left hand in that photo?

I guess if you don't give pilots a control column they're forced to play with their own! ;)

R.Cruizo
29th Nov 2012, 02:53
I bet no A319's come at all and the person who started this rumour is reading this thread and having a good laugh!

Exit Strategy
29th Nov 2012, 03:31
"Kendall's jet introduction was far more costly than expected with much longer training times than expected."


Does anybody remember who one of the managers of that laughable project was? I'll give you a hint: he currently "runs" QF.

traindriver33
29th Nov 2012, 03:38
What on earth is the Captain doing with his left hand in that photo?


A pic of your typical mainline pilot these days?

Capn Bloggs
29th Nov 2012, 04:08
I like the contemporarily-designed gear shift knob at the bottom. :D

Don Diego
29th Nov 2012, 05:40
Next to the cowl flaps lever

bddbism
29th Nov 2012, 19:24
but its the inertia and GS that the T/Prop guys have trouble with, not saying they can't do it, it just takes longer

Takes longer than what? Aces like you?
Training? Practice? Opportunity? This isn't Top Gun champ, you had to do a pre solo check just like the rest of us.

traindriver33
29th Nov 2012, 21:07
airdualbleedfault,

Are you saying those tprop pilots from Impulse Airlines struggle with the inertia of jets? Wouldn't the ex Impulse guys/girls be the most senior pilots, checkers and trainers in Jetstar by now? I would be a nervous passenger to think that the captain of my A330 joining the localiser at Phuket was struggling with the inertia and GS that the T/Prop guys have trouble with that you claim.

Capt Claret
29th Nov 2012, 21:39
Pre solo checks were usually conducted at up to a 100 kts, when one knew naff all, and had no long term learned habits or skill set.

After perhaps years and maybe 1000s of hours doing things at 180-240 kts, one develops a well honed skill set and mind set. Bump the speed up to 450+ kts, triple the weight and thus inertia, and replace rotating speed brakes (props) with small, fairly ineffective boards (spoilers), and it takes some time to modify the skill set and mind set.

It's not a criticism it's an observation. It can often take more time and when a company has a lot of folk that take a bit more time, then budgets & time lines can blow out.

train driver, are you saying that none struggled in the beginning? I've not seen anything in this thread suggesting that they continue to struggle. I certainly know my first jet endorsement was more challenging because of the speed etc, than had it been another turbo-prop.

Capn Bloggs
29th Nov 2012, 22:11
Arrr, the Children of the Magenta...:cool:

mustangranch
29th Nov 2012, 22:13
Capn claret,
I agree with inertia argument. However speed has nothing to do with it. When all the thinking is done the speed is exactly the same as a turboprop. Actually sometimes you'll hear a qlink delta to slow down as they are catching the heavy ahead. Oh and the q400 doesn't like to slow down very well. The props don't offer much help at all.
Now this high speed problem you elude to. Well seriously when you're doing 450 knots vs our 350 in the cruise, it's on autopilot and the only thinking is really flight management. Considering your sector is generally longer it offers more time to think.
Maybe jump seat a Sydney Canberra one day and see if you change your mind.
We are all pilots. Blue bit is up, brown bit down. I agree that inertia would be a challenge, but not an Apollo moon mission.

All the best.

ejectx3
29th Nov 2012, 23:00
Agreed. There's nothing harder about jets than turbo props.

You know you're on top of it when you can do cbr-syd in a 737, from runway 35 to 07, High speed all the way , in bad weather, while consuming a leisurely breakfast!

😀

traindriver33
29th Nov 2012, 23:21
Capt Claret,

In case you didn't pick up on it, I was having a dig at airdualbleedfault's choice to use a sweeping statement to describe his opinion of tprob guys. the inertia and GS that the T/Prop guys have trouble with He didn't specifically mention at which stage of their career this trouble might occur, which he probably should have. If he WAS referring to the initial jet training phase, I would question why someone with tprop experience would struggle any more than trainees with different experience. One might suggest that experience on a slippery Q400 which lacks the luxury of auto-throttles might put them at an advantage compared to a trainee coming off piston aircraft, and cadets with jump seat SO experience.

The Green Goblin
30th Nov 2012, 00:02
I came off a metro.

The speeds are identical below 10k and the approach speeds are similar. The only thing I had to get my head around was the extra inertia and the flatter profiles you fly in a jet. That was taken care of in 'line training'.

Anyone who thinks turboprop guys have a harder time is a dick. The turboprop was harder to fly. The jet gives you unparalleled SA with all the toys in the flight deck (once you figure out how to use them).

P.S where did the jet guys come from? Born with jet time and a pair of raybans?

Get a grip!

porch monkey
30th Nov 2012, 00:45
How unusual. Another knob size comparison on Pprune. :rolleyes:

Capt Claret
30th Nov 2012, 01:04
traindriver33, you're right, I missed that. :8 I'm afraid I don't see airdualbleedfault's sweeping statement. And certainly no criticism of T/P drivers. As I see it he's just pointing out an area of difficulty, one with which I identify.

As for same speeds below 10, I don't know what the limitations on a Metro are, but a 71 can hold 320+ to 10 to 15 nm. If required :E, does the Metro?

theheadmaster
30th Nov 2012, 01:18
I think some people here are a little sensitive.

The amount of training required to convert from one aircraft to another is a product of the natural ability of the pilot concerned plus the experience and skill set they bring to the course. I don't think anybody is arguing that one set of drivers has a greater natural ability than another - so lets drop that from the equation. I think the point is that turboprop regional aircraft require a different skill set than jet. So, a pilot transitioning from a one jet to a similar jet is going to require less training than a pilot transitioning from a turboprop to a jet. Even transitioning from one brand of jet to another (eg boeing to airbus) will take more training than, say airbus 320 to 330. I would like to also point out that the converse is also true. A jet pilot transitioning to a regional turboprop aircraft is going to require more training than a regional turboprop pilot transitioning to another turboprop type.

I think the OP was simply trying to identify some specific reasons why the training may take longer for turboprop to jet than jet to jet and was not making any particular observation about the ability of the people concerned.

chimbu warrior
30th Nov 2012, 01:49
a 71 can hold 320+ to 10 to 15 nm. If required , does the Metro?

Yawn :bored: A Metro can hold 245 knots to 5 miles, and still land. Don't think there are too many jets that would try that.

At another operation I was previously with, one of the blokes who did best on the prop-to-jet conversion was 59 years old, and had no previous jet experience. He watched, he listened, he studied and he learned.

It's not about age, experience or shoe size, it is all about attitude and application. :)

Keg
30th Nov 2012, 02:32
A Metro can hold 245 knots to 5 miles, and still land. Don't think there are too many jets that would try that.

If I've been doing 330 to 10, good chance I'm still going to be 200+ at 5! :ok:

Was was the thread about again? :E

yadot
30th Nov 2012, 03:49
May have to re-paint this

Download Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 Addon - Qantas Airways Airbus A319-100 - This is the Qantas Airways Airbus A319-100 addon for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 - Softpedia (http://games.softpedia.com/get/Mods-Addons/Microsoft-Flight-Simulator-2004-Qantas-Airways-Airbus-A319-100.shtml)

Tidbinbilla
30th Nov 2012, 04:06
Stable approach policy comes to mind :ugh:

Back on topic, please.

intake
30th Nov 2012, 05:01
Oz aviation, very sad indeed :yuk:

Stalins ugly Brother
30th Nov 2012, 06:47
One minor point on this discussion. How on earth do you think Qantas can finance yet another fleet of aircraft to yet another group??? The well is dry, we can't get access to cheap finance anymore.

Management will be flat out financing this years Chrissy party!

Sorry to bust this rumour but apart from the Airbuses earmarked for the international Jetstar franchises there is very little chance of any new aircraft to any entity in the group. Excess orders will be cancelled, not converted.

Just remember these little words "capital light" ..... Says it all.

theheadmaster
30th Nov 2012, 10:17
Noclue, and others, I think you miss the point. I think what has been stated, in very simple terms, is that the closer the operation of your previous type is to the type you are converting to, the less training is required. Someone made the link to training requirements and cost. The more training required, the more it will cost. Any competent pilot can make the transition, just the cost of that transition varies with previous experience. I would expect that, as a pilot of a large twin jet, I would require a shite ton more training to convert to a dash 8 than, say, a SAAB pilot. Similarly, I would expect to take less training to go to an A320 than a SAAB pilot. This is no reflection on ability, just a recognition of being proficient in your current type and role.

Now, as to how much influence training costs will have in determining where A319s go (if in fact they actually happen), that is another question entirely. I suspect other factors will have a much greater influence.

Tidbinbilla
1st Dec 2012, 02:46
Last opportunity to get back on topic, folks. If you want to compare sizes and capabilities, do it on the other thread, thanks :}

The Green Goblin
1st Dec 2012, 02:48
79T would be a little enthusiastic when the MTOW is 77T.

A 321 goes at 93T. You don't notice much difference between them except for rotation and approach. The 321 can be a little trickier to get back on profile though if you get high or ATC dick you around with track miles. She's a much more stable ship to hand fly than the 320.

It's a pity there isn't more of them in Australia as they are a very capable aeroplane.

airdualbleedfault
1st Dec 2012, 08:01
Maybe you're a " dick " green, or an ace maybe, or maybe your opinion of your ability is much higher than the trg captains. I have trained on a variety of jets over the past decade and the turboprop guys almost always struggle more in their initial training and generally require a little more than a pilot with previous jet time, for a variety of reasons including but not limited to inertia, speed (btw turboprop heroes, B717 320IAS to 10 miles comfortably, and stable by 1000', I e heard the old wives tales of tprops having to slow down behind jets just never encountered it), profiles, use of FMS etc.
As for the comment about impulse, there were a lot of experienced jet guys hired on start up, most of the 1900 drivers did some f/o time.

RENURPP
2nd Dec 2012, 00:50
(btw turboprop heroes, B717 320IAS to 10 miles comfortably, and stable by 1000',

I will bite, keep in mind you used the key word "comfortably".
Normally around 3000' at 10 miles, doing 5 miles a min + (320kts), you reckon we can lose around 180kts in 2000 ft/7nm which will take something like 90 secs and do it comfortably?

That is of course rubbish. Its is possible BUT requires air brake and lowering slats/flaps and gear all at their limiting speeds, changing the normal operating procedures to accomplish the task takes away the comfort I would suggest.