iPad Mini

[Zio Nick]

Hi all,

I would like to start this thread to share initial experiences and opinions on the new iPad mini in relation to navigation.

Anybody already tried it?

[Whopity]

Why, the Nexus 7 runs rings around it!

[Zio Nick]

What software do you use on it?

[cessnapete]

Over 4 trips recently, using Skydemon and external bluetooth GPS. Perfect!

[Steve6443]

Allow me to make a few comments, they might be helpful.

I have tried the following:

iPad 1 (non 3G - used with GNS 5870)
Samsung Galaxy Tab (7")
Samsung Galaxy S2
Samsung Note

Software wise I have been using Air Nav Pro but recently switched to Sky Map in connection with Flight Planner.

I have a mounting unit for fixing the iPad to the yoke, the problem is that the original iPad is so large that it covers quite a few other instruments. Additionally, the yoke mount is "ok" (just) for Cessnas but on modern Pipers it doesn't fit well. The Galaxy Tab was ok from a size point of view so anyone who has an iPad and thinks they are too big will probably prefer the iPad mini - however the Tab is rather large and cumbersome compared to a mobile device like a phone.

The Galaxy S2 was - in my mind - too small with Sky Map running on it but had the advantage of being portable. Additionally, the battery life was limited - I had bluetooth on, streaming music to my Zulus whilst Sky Map was ensuring I stayed away from controlled airspace which all meant the battery was pretty much dead after 3 - 4 hours. Yes, I could charge it from the power socket but do I really want cables draped around the plane?

Which leads me to my current favourite - the Samsung Galaxy Note. In terms of size it is optimal, fits in my pocket and yes, although it is rather large for telephoning, with Sky Map running, it gives you an overview of everything in your vicinity, allows you to quickly read off your location - none of this "ah... uhm.... er...." when the controller asks your current position and it also lends itself nicely to being mounted on the yoke.

I have two exchangeable reverse sides, one of which has a velcro strip stuck to it. When flying, I peel off the normal reverse side, put the side with velcro on. On the Piper yoke, I also have Velcro strips attached and, when getting in the plane, just press it into position in the middle of the yoke - in full view, without blocking any other instruments - quick and easy. And battery life is significantly better than the S2.

My vote goes for the Note and Sky Map any day, am hoping to get some air time this weekend, will take a picture of the Note in position with Sky Map running and post it, if anyone wants to see it.

By the way, I rarely use the GNS5870 in the Piper, the Note has yet to lose the GPS signal, indicating it sees between 9 and 12 satellites. I have yet to trial it in the Cessna - seems I prefer flying Archers these days - but had my Galaxy S2 in a jacket pocket slung on the back seat of the 172 and it recorded the whole flight easily without losing the signal. The reason for not using it is simply I use the Bluetooth connection from the phone to stream music to my headset, I couldn't do this with the GNS connected.....

[flybymike]

It seems to be quite hard to actually get hold of the ipad mini at the moment. Very few in stock for immediate delivery.

[david viewing]

Foreflight (http://blog.foreflight.com/2012/11/03/foreflight-loves-the-ipad-mini-unboxing-and-first-impressions/) liked it.

[Airspeedintervention]

People seem to be missing the bigger picture when it comes to this question of iPad vs. Droid Tablet and that is it's NOT about the hardware IT'S ABOUT THE APPS !!! I've never been very excited about the iPhone or the iPad but I have been very pleased with the Apps and all I can do with them. Get a droid if you must and only want to do a few things. Get the Apple product if you want to do more - way more.

[wb9999]

Agree with Airspeedintervention. I have an Android phone, but use an iPad when flying, as the choice of apps on an Android is pretty poor - Air Navigation Pro being the only faintly usable app. On an iPad Sky Demon is way above everything else. I sold my Android tablet because it was pointless for flying, irrespective of its size.

The downside to a regulariPad is the size. I would love to hear from anybody who has used an iPad Mini when flying - especially in a PA28. Sky Demon will work on an iPad Mini, but I would like to know how usable the device is in the aircraft.

[peterh337]

The great "flying" app for Android is Oziexplorer (http://www.oziexplorer.com/).

You can get maps for every bit of the world for Ozi. On occassions they might not be, ahem, copyright free ;) but they come at the "right price".

On my first long flying trip (UK to Crete (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/crete/index.html)) I flew all the way down there using Ozi and running aviation charts which I scanned myself. I wasn't taking any chances - I wanted to know where I was 100% of the time.

Nowadays, with an IR, it's easier (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/crete2/index.html) but if I was going VFR I would fly the same way.

The problem with the IOS platform for GA flying is that you are stuck with a small selection of official but variously crippled products, often you tear all your hair out trying to do something which should be really really trivially simple (like print to a PDF), or you jailbreak it and then you - for the most part - have to know what you are doing with messing about inside unix.

I have an Ipad2 which is great and does what Apple intended it to be used for brilliantly.

[Steve6443]

Sorry guys, those of you who haven't tried Sky Map should try this. I love the fact that I can do my planning with Flight Planner and transfer it to Sky Map - which is available as an Android and iPad app.

Here is a picture of Sky Map, what I like most, which has proved a blessing to me, is the fourth square from the top on the left hand side which tells you the distance to the next airport and it's ICAO code - saves hunting around guestimating how far you are from the next airfield should ATC ask - plus a visual representation of the terrain and airspaces ahead of you.

What is also useful about Sky Map is you can program it to remind you when to change tanks - it might be just a small thing but anything which lightens my workload when flying the Archer has to be a good thing. Every 30 minutes I get a visual and acoustic warning - change fuel tanks....

http://www.steve-paul.de/smallskymap.jpg

I'm not going to get into a battle of Apple v Droid because I'm typing this on a Macbook Pro, I have an iPad and an iPhone 4S, having previously owned 3 other iPhones but seriously, the Samsung Note, because of it's size and the detail you can see on the screen at a glance, wins it hands down. The iPad is - in my humble opinion - too large to be yoke mounted, the Note offers significantly more viewing space without overcrowding the panel....

Concerning Apps: The main apps that I used on my iPhone / iPad - Flight Plan, Aeroweather, Weight and Balance Pro - are available either as direct 1:1 transfers to droid or similar apps are available in the Play Store.

[wb9999]

Sky-Map doesn't appear on Google Play for me in the UK. The only Sky Map on the Play store is for astrology. I can see it when I search in my browser (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.skymap&hl=en). Is it not available in the UK?

Just found their website (Sky-Map - Aviation Moving-Map Navigationssystem (http://www.sky-map.de/)). Looks like a German only app, which is a shame. Looks like it is available on the iPad also, and is on the App Store in the UK. But very expensive (£149.99, not including maps). UK maps are not available.

Personally, I don't anything will better Sky Demon. It makes VFR planning and navigating so easy.

[Zulu Alpha]

I agree, Sky Demon seems to be way ahead of all the rest.
We used it for a VFR trip to Hungary and back in the Summer. One of our group had Sky Demon on an iPad and became the leader as the software with weather, Notams, restricted airspace etc. allowed us to thread our way through very complex airspace.

Some of the flightplans would have taken hours the old manual way with charts and Garmins. Skydemon took minutes and even filed the flightplans.

I am thinking of an iPad mini as I can't get the full iPad in the cockpit.

I know the Android tablets are very good but there just doesn't seem to be any software like SkyDemon for them.

[this is my username]

I have a plan! Knowing my luck if I (very reluctantly) spend the extra money and buy an iPad mini rather than a Nexus 7, I can guarantee that within a week SkyDemon will announce an Android version!

[Zio Nick]

The iPad is - in my humble opinion - too large to be yoke mounted

...this is why this thread is dedicated to the iPad MINI....

am thinking of an iPad mini as I can't get the full iPad in the cockpit.


Fully agree, but still I have some concerns in relation to the high temperature issue...

@Cessnapete: My understanding is that the iP Mini works pretty well with Skydemon, or at least as well as the standard iP. The standard iP shows some difficulties (i.e.: excessive temperature leading to self shut-off) which I hope will not be reproduced by the Mini: the battery is smaller, so the heating effect should be less, logically.

[wb9999]

Quote:
am thinking of an iPad mini as I can't get the full iPad in the cockpit.
Fully agree, but still I have some concerns in relation to the high temperature issue...

I've never experienced high temperature issues with my iPad 3, and I've used it for a quite a few hours when flying. I use an external GPS. Maybe that's why I don't have high temperature issues.

[Zio Nick]

I've never experienced high temperature issues with my iPad 3, and I've used it for a quite a few hours when flying. I use an external GPS. Maybe that's why I don't have high temperature issues.

It depends also on the geographical region where you were flying... any experiences in southern Europe or North Africa?

[wb9999]

It depends also on the geographical region where you were flying... any experiences in southern Europe or North Africa?

No, UK only. But are you saying that it's the heat from the sun that causes it?

[Zio Nick]

Not exactly, I mean that an hot environment, together with the typically higher sun radiation of southern Europe, may not help to dissipate the electric heating generated by the iPad itself.

[cessnapete]

The only instance of a shutdown on an iPad II was when inadvertently placed in full sun on coaming when parked. Easy enough to avoid this scenario.
Restarted with no ill effects after short cooling period.
iPad mini plus SkyDemon in C180 with external Bluetooth GPS input, still faultless.

[Zulu Alpha]

Well, the iPad mini is about £450 plus Sky demon at £180 (only £90 renewal) makes the combination £630.

With quite a few good android devices available for £150-£200 it is a shame that SkyDemon doesn't run on them as we could be talking half the price.

Skydemon is great and well worth the subscription. I'm just not sure about £450 for an iPad mini can be justified.

I have a portable for most work and an iPhone for messages, email and checking on things when out and about.
I can't see that I'd use the iPad mini for anything other than flying.

[wb9999]

Steve6443, I'm not sure why you took offence to Nick's very polite reminder about the question that he asked in the OP. The thread can quickly drift off if people do not stick to the topic. Instead you decided to discuss a product can is of no use to most people on the forum. Sky Map is a product for Germany only. That does not help any of the contributors to this topic.

[wb9999]

Zulu Alpha, the cheapest iPad Mini 3G (with GPS) is £369. If you already have an external GPS then you can get the wifi model for £269. It's still not as cheap as a Nexus 7 (a very nice device, but no Sky Demon), but it's much cheaper than a Garmin. I'm hooked on Sky Demon, so it has to be iOS for me (for flight planning - its only a backup for navigating)

I'm seriously thinking about buying an iPad Mini wifi (I have an external GPS) and selling my iPad 3 on EBay.

[Zulu Alpha]

Its about £100 more for the GPS/3G model. An external GPS is £60-70 so I think the internal one is probably the better option as it saves worrying about charging an extra set of batteries for the bluetooth GPS, and you can use 3G.

I did wonder how much memory I will need in the iPad. I have 16G on my iPhone and only a little over 1G unused. I thought that 16G might be a little light for an iPad mini.

Anyone have any suggestions on how much memory to purchase? (it must be the most expensive memory in the world!)

[wb9999]

£369 is the 3G/GPS model (not £450, unless you're getting 32GB model).

An external GPS, in my opinion, is better than the built-in GPS, because you get a more reliable GPS signal with no dropouts, I don't have to worry about the iPad having sight of the sky (useful if I want to just store the GPS track - I can keep the iPad in my flight bag in the back of the aircraft) and the iPad battery doesn't drain as fast. An external GPS will generally use a rechargeable battery that lasts 10-12 hours of usage, so more than enough for a couple of days of flying. You can re-charge them very easily using a USB cable. But if you will be using 3G on it, then you obviously need the 3G model. I have a 3 MyFi to create a wifi hotspot, which works well in-flight.

As for the amount of storage you need, that depends on what you will be using it for. I have quite a few maps on Air Navigation Pro and Sky Demon, a large number of non-aviation apps, and I only have 2.7GB free on a 16GB model.
Air Nav Pro uses 1.6GB
Sky Demon uses 800MB

[dublinpilot]

For those asking about the Nexus 7, you might like to try PocketFMS (30 days free trial). I works on Android devices as well as iPad/iPhone and covers all of Europe, North America, Australia & New Zealand.

For clarity I am a beta tester for PFMS, but have no financial involvement.

In relation to iPad over heating, I've only had one. It was on a reasonably warm summers day but not exceptionally warm. It was perhaps 20C but bright sunshine.

I put my iPad 3 onto the combing for maybe 3 minutes while I arranged myself and when I took it down it was overheated. I took it down and after 5-10 minutes it was working again.

dp

[peterh337]

I read of mixed reports from the USA about the Ipad2 overheating. Some had it, others never.

However it must depend strongly on whether there is direct sunlight, and how much cooling there is. I know this because I fly with a tablet (an old LS800) which runs far hotter in direct sun, and far hotter in the absence of ventilation. The LCD backlight also makes a big difference.

I reckon if you lay an Ipad onto your knees (i.e. no cooling on the back) and have sun on the top, and have the backlight on max (which you have to in such conditions) it would get way too hot.

If OTOH you somehow mount it in a holder, so there is airflow all around, it would be very hard to get it too hot.

The problem with any device that dissipates a few watts or more, cooled by convection alone, is that it will be extremely sensitive to what is around it. Fairly obvious really, given that conduction/convection/radiation is all that stops its temperature reaching infinity :)

[flybymike]

Most of the ipad holders I have seen, including the one I use myself , have a backplate which would indeed restrict cooling. However I have had no uncommanded shutdowns myself on my ipad2, even where mounted in direct sunlight.

[englishal]

You can't really fault the iPad and the iPad + Skydemon combo is THE ONLY combo as far as I am concerned. It is brilliant. Never had a problem - using New Ipad with internal GPS and it seems very accurate and never loses GPS signal and never known one to overheat.

However I would prefer to use an Android Tablet, and my Motorola is superior to the iPad technically, plus you can slot in a 64GB memory card available for £20. However Skydemon is not available for Android (yet) so it is not an option as far as I am concerned. I believe the Skydemon team are working on this though, so rather than buy an iPad (I nick the Mrs's at the moment ;) ) for myself I think I'll just wait a while.

[LowNSlow]

I've just tried the above setup and failed! iPad is bluetoothed to the GNS but when I opened Sykdemon it just had a big green bar across the screen saying "Looking for Satellites" and I cannot figure out how to wirelessly connect the two. Any tips?

Just looked on the SkyDemon website only to discover that it won't talk to the GNS GPS. So good to find this out after spending £204 on SkyDemon. I would have thought that important limitations like this would be writ large on SkyDemon's website.

Ah well, back to the Pilot III until I decide which other software to throw money at.

[BackPacker]

Well, to be fair to SkyDemon, it's probably not the SD software that is at fault.

The "Location Services" of the iPad (any version) will not accept a simple NMEA data stream, but only accepts input from external GPSs in some Apple specific format or encoding. To the best of my knowledge, there are only three external devices that supply this specific format. Bad Elf, Garmin Glo and one other. Most of these use BlueTooth as their carrier, but Bad Elf also has a device that plugs into the iPad directly.

Just pairing the iPad with a generic BlueTooth-supporting device is not enough. This is because Bluetooth consists of a number of subprotocols and not all devices support all subprotocols. Furthermore, there is no standardized BT "GPS" protocol. I suspect the "default" BT/GPS protocol would be something like NMEA on top of RFCOMM on top of Bluetooth. And I presume Apple has implemented something proprietary on top of BT for GPS data, which is only supported in the Garmin Glo, Bad Elf and that other one.

Bluetooth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth)

To make matters worse, the iPad is a fairly closed device. The complete BT stack and the complete Location Services stack is part of the iOS suite, and I doubt SD would be able to access the core, low-level BT functions to implement their own NMEA/RFCOMM stack (or something else) on top of raw BT to support other GPS/BT devices.

All this technical mumbo-jumbo means it's not SDs fault. Air Nav Pro, PocketFMS and similar products would be equally affected. (And would equally benefit from getting an iPad compatible GPS such as the Garmin Glo, Bad Elf and that other one, without having to do a software update or anything.)

[tmmorris]

True that only some external GPSs are supported, but the GNS 1000 is supposed to be one such. I don't understand why Skydemon wouldn't support it, therefore. This thread:

iPad4 and GNS1000 (http://www.skydemon.aero/forums/Topic8422.aspx)

suggests you're wrong.

Where did you get the idea Skydemon doesn't support the GNS1000? Have you asked them direct?

[LowNSlow]

Apologies for the rant, I was a little ticked off that it wasn't working as advertised. The SkyDemon website had threads about the GNS units not being supported but I now realise that it's the GNS 2000 with it's GLONASS that isn't supported.

Now relaxing with a glass of Merlot and the iPad and GNS sitting on my desk I now have 0.0GS and an aircraft image sitting over my house so it appears that the nav function does work. If there isn't a Gale Force 10 across the strip tomorrow I'll give it another shot and let y'all know how I got on!

[LowNSlow]

tmmorris, it all worked a treat, thanks fr the advice. Cheers, :ok::ok:

[Bobby Hart]

Rob (SkyDemon) here,

I should probably clarify that there were initially some serious problems with the GNS 2000 (early units were flawed in some way that I will not pretend to understand), but I understand that those have now been resolved by GNS themselves, or by the stockists who were trained to apply the fix.

I have a number of happy chaps who run the GNS 2000 with their iPads, but if anyone does have a problem, to contact GNS directly. You may have got one of the original batch...

[alland2012]

I used a full size iPad 3 with Foreflight. I didn't have a mount, just had it on the seat beside me when solo, or my wife held it when she was on board.

Now use iPad mini, initially dithered over making the move to the mini thinking it may be too small with the sectional displayed on it, but having flown with a friend and sampled it first hand in the cockpit, I was sold on it, don't really feel the size is of any issue, added plus with the mini, I now have it secured on a knee mount.

Full size iPad is still on board along with my paper charts just in case I lose the mini or the panel GPS.

No overheating issues with either version, and my flying is mainly in the heat and humidity of Florida.

[Zio Nick]

Gents,

I have read a large number of comments about the GNS1000 performance, I took quite some interest in it so I went searching for buying it on the web.
I discovered that it has been superseded by the GNS2000 about which I could not retrieve so many information.

Any body has direct experience with it? Does it suffer similar issues like the 1000 brother?

Cheers,
ZN

[dirkdj]

I have a GNS2000 since almost two years. It is rock-steady.
I use a Nexus7 (Kitkat 4.4.4) with GPS Bluetooth Provider (essential) and SkyDemon.
Lollipop 5.0.2 is not stable with SD, better stay on 4.4.4 or wait for 5.1 (imminent).

I also use a Lenovo Yoga2 10" tablet, reasonably priced, very long battery life (40+ hours), also available in 8" and 13.3" sizes.

[Zio Nick]

Thanks Dirk, have you ever tried it on an Apple device?

[dirkdj]

I manage the hardware for a friend pilot too. He has a Nexus7/GNS2000 combo same as mine, also an iPad where we couple the XGPS160A. I don't see there would be any problem with GNS and the iPad.
If you already have the iPad, I would order a GNS2000 from one of the major on-line retailers. If it doesn't work, you can send it back within 30 days. On the SkyDemon forum you can get plenty of help to get it working.

The GNS2000 is quite a bit smaller than the XGPS160A. On the XGPS you can fairly easily connect multiple Bluetooth devices (up to 5, I tried 3).

[alland2012]

Used to fly with the regular iPad but changed to the iPad mini as soon as it was available purely for space saving.
Foreflight is my chosen app.

My flying is mainly in Florida never had any iPad overheating issues even in the middle of the very hot summer

[ChickenHouse]

Just to share some actual experience - I had my first flight with a GNS2000 and iPhone 6 Plus. As a result my old combo iPhone + iPad Mini will go away (and the Jeppesen subscriptions as well, without iPhone support they will be useless). For me, the 5.5 screen of the 6 Plus is an even better match in my small cockpit and performance was just awesome.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I would love to hear from anybody who has used an iPad Mini when flying - especially in a PA28. Sky Demon will work on an iPad Mini, but I would like to know how usable the device is in the aircraft.

I've used it for a year now in a PA28 with no problems whatsoever.

Battery seems to last (exactly) 5 hours when navigating, from a full charge.

Only caught out once with the battery - but simply switched to my iPhone 5 to complete the trip.

[thing]

There aren't any problems as such with the mini but the iPhone 5 is so much more convenient. You look at all the fiddly stuff on Skydemon and think 'well I might want to change route midway and see what the fuel price is in Iceland' but truth be told, 99% of the time you just need the purple string to glance at now and again. I'm not knocking the functionality of SD, it's an amazing bit of kit but having had the mini stuck in front of me and the iPhone I know which I prefer. But each to their own preference.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

There aren't any problems as such with the mini but the iPhone 5 is so much more convenient.

No there aren't, but you do lose some functionality with the iPhone 5 - and the screen can be a bit small for some.

I've used an iPhone 5, iPad Mini and seen a normal iPad in use and all users have been happy with those products coupled with Skydemon.

[sascha410]

can anyone tell me what does it take to legally use iPad for navigation/IFR.
thanks a lot in advance.

[robin]

Duh

It isn't illegal to use them, so therefore it is legal.

But take a chart along as well and you've covered all the bases

[sascha410]

Thank you for your answer. I would love to have the old fashion paper charts but my operator chose not to have them, we just got the mini iPad and I am trying to see are we legal or not.

[Johnm]

The regulations state that you must have all the navigation and other information reasonably required for the safe execution of the flight. It does not specify the medium on which it is to be delivered. Many people now dispense with paper, me included.

[Cusco]

I use the full-size iPad but when this croaks I'm switching to the iPad mini.

Call me old-fashioned if you like but I wouldn't leave the ground (including IFR) without paper charts covering the full the route I'm planning.

There is nothing like a paper chart to give an instant overview of a route and any potential complications

Our a/c was ramp checked at Texel last year and the Dutch Feds were most insistent to see a current chart (which was present in the a/c).

Cusco

[BackPacker]

Our a/c was ramp checked at Texel last year and the Dutch Feds were most insistent to see a current chart (which was present in the a/c).

The Accepted Means of Compliance (AMCs) to EASA-NCO (or something like that) specifically states that electronic solutions (for charts, maps, approach plates and whatnot) are acceptable, as long as availability is assured. In other words: You have to have a backup if your primary device packs up.

As an aside: If you have the 2015 Dutch ICAO paper map, now is a good time to annotate it. Late last June, all Military CTRs changed to 8.33 channel spacing and as a consequence, their frequencies changed. This means the 2015 paper map is now technically outdated already, unless it's annotated with the new frequencies. So in this particular case, a paper map that's only updated once a year is a worse solution than electronic maps.

[M-ONGO]

can anyone tell me what does it take to legally use iPad for navigation/IFR.
thanks a lot in advance.


It is not legal to use an iPad for IFR navigation.. It's at best just for improved SA.

[A and C]

While I am using the iPad I also carry a paper device that can be used to shied the avionics from the sun when parked, swat insects, contain vomit, and block drafts. it also has navigational information on it.

No pilot should fly without a Multi Action Paper device........ batterys are not needed !

[Johnm]

For IFR you need an approved RNAV compliant device such as Garmin GTN x50, but there's nothing to stop you using Skydemon on an ipad alongside it, I do that all the time.