How to log a flight (vv XC and IFR)

[Airmann]

Question regarding logging flight hours at an airline.


1) Are all flights considered XC? (I realize that after a while no one cares about XC hours but there are certain authorities that require x number of XC hour for licenses). I'm 99% sure that if I'm flying from one country to the other it is XC, but I just want to make sure.

2) Regarding logging IFR: Some logbooks explicitly state "Actual" IMC (Canadian) others just say "IFR" (JAR). Whats the proper definition of this "IFR" column in the JAR books, do they want actual hours in IMC, or any flight registered as IFR.

[XiRho]

With regard to the XC time, while I don't have a reference to anything official, I'm pretty sure yes.

As for the IFR time, this is a problem I have as well. Living in Europe, I use a logbook that has an IFR column, which the instruction state is for logging time under IFR - Instrument Flight Rules, which one can fly under in VMC.

My problem arises in that half the people I ask say I should ignore it an log time in actual IMC. The other half say if it says IFR then log IFR. CAP804 says IFR time must be logged but doesn't mention Actual IF time. CAP804 also has IFR time as a requirement for some ratings etc.

An applicant for an IRI certificate shall:
(a) for
an IRI(A):
(1) have completed at least 800 hours of flight time under IFR, of which at least 400 hours shall be in aeroplanes

My solution is to log IFR time as my logbook asks and to keep both noted in my e-logbook in case I ever need one or the other.

[Airmann]

Thanks for the response. The good thing is that on a particular Aeroplane type I fly we're always IFR, so its just a question of doing a query on LogTen for the hours flown on that aircraft.

With regard to IMC, I've heard the argument that flying with a cloud base below you is technically IMC since you don't have visual reference with the ground, even if you're well out of it. Anyone care to respond?

[Tinstaafl]

No, it's not IMC. You can be in VMC on top of a layer of cloud. VMC is not defined by whether or not you can see the ground. There may, however, be a requirement to be able to navigate by ground reference, but that depends on a particular country's rules and isn't related to VMC criteria.

[scavenger]

VMC is not defined by whether or not you can see the ground.

If i'm flying VFR just clear of cloud below 1000 FT AGL, i'm pretty keen to see the ground so i don't hit it.

Whoever wrote the AIP on my desk seems to agree AIP ENR 1.2 para 2.5 page 4. This is not a VFR navigation requirement but a part of the criteria for VMC.

Maybe this is just an Australian requirement but it makes a lot of sense to me. You also need to carry and use a radio on the appropriate frequency, presumably to hear IFR aircraft calling before descent because you don't have the separation from cloud (1000 FT/1500M) necessary to avoid them by sight (same AIP reference).

[Check Airman]

Like everything else, it depends.

FAA rules here:

1. Any flight from one airport to another is a XC flight. In order for that XC to count towards the requirements for certain ratings, however, the airports must be at least 50nm apart.

2. If you're at an airline, chances are, all your flights are filed under IFR. Now I understand that in the EU, all such time is logged as instrument time. In the US, you only log instrument time while you're in IMC. Thus, we can fly around for several days and not log any instrument time. It's unusual, but it happens.

[boofhead]

You are confusing IFR ( a set of rules ) with Instrument Time ( a condition). What is logged is the time spent flying the airplane while solely using the instruments as reference. Only the pilot flying can log this time. It is further broken down as Actual or Simulated. It can be logged even if the airplane is connected to the auto pilot.
If you log IFR time as Instrument Time, no matter how you might interpret the regulations in order to do so, you are mistaken and cheating not only those who otherwise might have trusted your word, but yourself as well.

[Check Airman]

Boofhead, what regulations are you referencing?

What is logged is the time spent flying the airplane while solely using the instruments as reference. Only the pilot flying can log this time.

IIRC the FAA allows both pilots to log the time.

[Denti]

JAR FCL requires pilots to log the operational flight conditions, if one flies under Instrument Flight Rules it has to be logged as IFR. IMC time on the other hand doesn't have to be logged at all, however each plot can log it at his leisure in the remarks column. Except during training for the IR rating JAR FCL does not care about actual IMC time at all.

In short, the Europeans want the flight time logged according to the set of rules someone is using, other countries are more interested about the weather conditions.

[Roger Greendeck]

Airmann,

Not sure where the definitions are located in the Canadian regs but I am sure they are there somewhere. In Australia cross-country involves the use of navigation techniques so there is no minimum distance. There is a requirement for flight as PIC over a certain distance that lands at a destination as well.

[Airmann]

The XC question is quite clear. Thanks for the clarification. My local authority requires x number of XC hours before I can unfreeze my ATPL.

Regarding the question of logging IFR. As is clear from all the posts, there is no fixed worldwide standard. I have asked a lot of questions on this forum and others about logbooks and how to fill them out correctly, and I've received many different answers (Some folks from the US even told me that you can record simulator time towards your total flight time??). In general FAA is completely different from the rest of the world (In most things). I know that in the US flight training hours for CPL etc. can be split by two pilots so both log PIC hours at the same time, this is simply not allowed anywhere else in the world.

Secondly, like I said, my Canadian logbook says "Actual IMC" my JAR logbook just says "IFR" under the flight conditions columns. Frankly speaking there are two issues
1) how the hell are you going to calculate actual IMC hours, if you're flying in and out of cloud are you going to sit there with a stop watch?
2) how can anyone ever double check if your hours are accurate?
It makes more sense for one to just log each time a flight was conducted under IFR rules.

And yes, its true that once the IR rating has been obtained recording actual IMC hours is not that important but I've seen instances of companies asking for this number.

Finally, if I cover the windows with newspaper can I log this as simulated IMC/hood? :}

[Check Airman]

I know that in the US flight training hours for CPL etc. can be split by two pilots so both log PIC hours at the same time, this is simply not allowed anywhere else in the world

True, but it really isn't too absurd, given that we are talking about logging PIC, and not acting as PIC.

1) how the hell are you going to calculate actual IMC hours, if you're flying in and out of cloud are you going to sit there with a stop watch?

Just use your best guess. It's always been my opinion that at an interview, they care more about how well you fly in IMC than how much time you have in IMC.

[Tinstaafl]

If i'm flying VFR just clear of cloud below 1000 FT AGL, i'm pretty keen to see the ground so i don't hit it.

Scavenger, that would be *navigation* related, and not strictly related to the ability control the aircraft. Australia's rules only require 'in sight of the ground or water' *below* a certain height ie you can be VFR above that height without ground reference and therefore must still be in VMC.

[boofhead]

From the US FARs. Similar should be found in most countries:

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

See the "person", not the "crew". I flew with an Asian carrier and in double crew conditions the entire crew logged instrument time less 10 minutes for every flight under IFR (all flights in fact) thus a 10 hour flight would result in 40 hours of logged time. You can't see the stupidity of this?

A CFI can log instrument time under actual conditions if he is actually teaching the approach at the time, otherwise only the pilot in command at the time (that is the Pilot Flying or PF, not necessarily the PIC) can log instrument time.

I cannot imagine any need to log time spent IFR, it does not appear on any pilot certificate requirements, or for maintenance of any instrument rating. In the South Pacific where there are 10 months of severe clear and two months of heavy rain, does the 10 months experience prepare a pilot for the two?

No wonder the European rules are so obtuse and irrelevant, if you can't even get this right.

[Airmann]

I have found this statement in JAR FCL:

JAR-FCL 1.080:

* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.

However, this footnote does not come under the IFR Operational Conditions section (5) , it is an addition to Pilot Function section (4(v)), basically says that in the remarks column one may make mention of instrument flight time, followed by the note above. Nothing is mentioned with regard to the IFR operational condition. However, the key is the word "condition" which alludes to there being Instrument Meteorological "Conditions". I think I'll stick to only logging when I'm PF flying in IMC.

[Denti]

Yup, you found the relevant note for instrument time. The operational condition says IFR which is not time in IMC or instrument time but simply Instrument Flight Rules. Therefore IFR has to be logged, instrument time as detailed in that note may be logged (but only in the remarks column) if the pilot wants to, but it doesn't have to be logged. It doesn't have any value within the JAR/EASA rules.