Emirates 380 engine fire, returns to Sydney

[voyageur9]

(Reuters) - An A380 Emirates jet bound for Dubai was forced to return to Australia on Sunday night when one of its engines caught fire soon after take-off.

The flight, with 380 passengers on board, was just 20 minutes into its flight from Sydney to Dubai and climbing at an altitude of 10,000 feet when it experienced a problem with one of its engines.

"Emirates flight EK413 from Sydney to Dubai on 11 November turned back shortly after take-off due to an engine fault. Passengers are being re-booked on alternative flights," the airline said in a statement on Monday.

A mid-air engine blowout in November 2010 on an A380 using Rolls Royce Trent engines prompted Australia's Qantas Airlines to ground its entire fleet of Airbus superjumbos for nearly a month.

Emirates, the world's biggest user of A380s, uses rival GP7200 engines built by Engine Alliance, a joint venture between engine manufacturers General Electric and Pratt & Whitney.

Passengers on the giant double-deck aircraft, manufactured by Airbus parent EADS, said the superjumbo experienced a "judder" and then they saw flames shooting several metres out of one of the engines.

"I saw a flash. I thought it could have been lightning, but then we saw flames come out of the engine. The whole interior of the A380 lit up," passenger John Fothergill, 49, from New Zealand told Australia's Daily Telegraph newspaper.

Emirates apologised for the inconvenience to its passengers and said their safety was "of the highest priority and will not be compromised."

Superjumbos, worth $375 million apiece, typically carry around 525 passengers.

A380 aircraft, manufactured in Toulouse from parts sourced across Europe, have also been affected by cracks in the wings of a small number of planes.

There are eighteen airlines currently using the aircraft with total orders outstanding for 262.

[splinterniki]

1 engine on fire in a A380...piece of cake.:}

[500N]

I was wondering if this would hit the forum !

Check out the News article in Australia.

'Scary experience': A380 in Sydney mid-air engine drama (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/scary-experience-a380-in-sydney-midair-engine-drama-20121112-29748.html)


I'll highlight this bit. Just how many plane engines has he seen explode ???????
(as opposed to ingest something and spit it and flames out the back ?).


Fairfax Media motoring journalist Matt Campbell, who was on board the plane, said the aircraft was still ascending when the incident occurred.
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"It seemed about half an hour in to the flight when I saw a bright orange flash, heard a loud bang and there was a big thump through the cabin," he said. "The flight attendants were rushing about through the cabin and then eventually the PA came on and the captain said there was an engine problem with engine number three and that engine had now been shut down."
Campbell said others on board the flight heard the issue may have been caused by a bird strike.
"I didn't see flames but the flash that I saw would be consistent with an engine exploding," he said.
"It was a bright orange light, I didn't see it for more than a split second, but it was still a very scary sight."

Read more: 'Scary experience': A380 in Sydney mid-air engine drama (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/scary-experience-a380-in-sydney-midair-engine-drama-20121112-29748.html#ixzz2ByUe5ZPX)"

[hetfield]

Well, what puzzles me is... three IFSD at EMIRATES within a week...


Emirates A388 near Sydney on Nov 11th 2012, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=458dbb78&opt=0)
Emirates B773 near Mumbai on Nov 7th 2012, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=458d34f5&opt=0)
Emirates A388 near Kosice on Nov 7th 2012, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=458d2f36&opt=0)

[Sober Lark]

"An Emirates Airbus A380-800, registration A6-EDO performing flight EK-201 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was enroute at FL340 about 30nm northeast of Kosice (Slovakia) when the crew shut the #4 engine (GP7270, outboard right hand) down. The aircraft set course in direction of Frankfurt/Main (Germany) descending to FL100, about 85nm east of Frankfurt the aircraft changed course to fly south around Frankfurt and divert to Paris (France). The aircraft landed safely on Charles de Gaulle Airport's runway 26R about 140 minutes after the engine was shut down.

A replacement Airbus A380-800 registration A6-EDM was dispatched from Dubai to Paris as flight EK-3073 and resumed flight EK-201 reaching New York with a delay of 12 hours.

A passenger reported the crew announced engine #4 had been shut down.

The incident aircraft was able to position to Dubai on Nov 8th as flight EK-7002 and resumed service about 35 hours after landing in Paris. "Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Nov 10th 2012 21:31Z

[misd-agin]

'Bang then flames out the back' seems like a compressor stall.

[Dg800]

"I didn't see flames but the flash that I saw would be consistent with an engine exploding," he said.Lack of engine parts flying about and punching holes through the aircraft structure is, on the other hand, extremely inconsistent with an engine "exploding". But what do I know... :}

[racedo]

Have Emirates a problem with engine maintenance or are they just unlucky ?

[DaveReidUK]

Have Emirates a problem with engine maintenance or are they just unlucky ?

Well judging from the above, yes:

the captain said there was an engine problem with engine number three and that engine had now been shut down

A passenger reported the crew announced engine #4 had been shut down

To lose one engine may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness. :ugh:

[lomapaseo]

Many engine problems eventually (sometimes within seconds) lead to a bang and a flash of flame out the tailpipe. Such a flash is a secondary event and by no means a confirmation of what started it.

Thus, just based on a report of a flash of flame one can/should not conclude what caused it without further evidence.

The earlier report of the Qantas A380 simply reported the flame/flash as a result and tied it to the cause after other facts were known.

It's too early to do the same for this event

[Airmotive]

The real gem was when Emirates was seeking damages from Rolls-Royce shortly after the QF incident, (even though Emirates has GE engine on their fleet). Emirates' claimed the QF engine failure had tarnished the image of all A-380's, thus causing a loss of value to Emirates' fleet.:{

Maybe QF, Singapore and Lufthansa will seek damages from Emirates now for the same reasoning?

[Smudger]

Splinternici... an engine fire is NEVER a piece of cake... when will you armchair experts give it a rest... jeezus

[helen-damnation]

Well since it probably wasn't on fire, that's not really a factor here :ugh:

[JW411]

I'm more interested in the fact that they only had 380 passengers on board.

Thirty years ago I used to carry 380 passengers on a DC-10 on a daily basis.

I freely admit that the aircraft were configured in full-Y class but it makes me wonder how far we have actually advanced versus the huge amount of capital investment in the A-380 is concerned.

[DaveReidUK]

380 pax, 489 seats = 77.7% load factor

I suspect EK are happy enough with that.

[Smudger]

Helen.. I was responding to the statement that "an engine fire on an A380... a piece of cake".. read the posts properly

[Basil]

a bright orange flash, heard a loud bang
"F**k me!" exclaimed Aladdin, "What's that genie been on tonight?" :}

p.s. Aladdin's words, not mine.

[Lyman]

:}

Given the smilie, and the tone, as I read it, splinterniki was being sarcastic......

Of course an engine fire is a serious issue. "read the posts properly"

Sauce/goose/gander

[JW411]

Basil:

Reminds me of a wonderful greeting card that I sent to my eldest son in Canada.

Chap sitting in desert rubbing the classic magic brass lamp.

Suddenly, there is this wonderful genie complete with a turban and lots of muscles coming out of the lamp.

"B*gger Me!" says chap sitting in desert.

The caption was:

"Fred was to regret this outburst!"

[Artie Fufkin]

The flight, with 380 passengers on board, was just 20 minutes into its flight from Sydney to Dubai and climbing at an altitude of 10,000 feet when it experienced a problem with one of its engines.

20 minutes to FL100?

[hetfield]

20 minutes to FL100?

Have you ever departed LHR towards the east.....?

[Lyman]

Why hurry? These engines are not bulletproof.....

[Artie Fufkin]

Have you ever departed LHR towards the east.....?


Admittedly not. Blimey!

[barit1]

We don't know for sure, but the crew typically might have seen no fire warning, only a crazy EGT with every other parameter spooling down.

20 minutes to FL100?

Quite possibly block time, not flight time.

What amuses me is the "judder". Does the A380 have judder pedals?

[Capn Bloggs]

Have Emirates a problem with engine maintenance or are they just unlucky ?

Well judging from the above, yes:


the captain said there was an engine problem with engine number three and that engine had now been shut down

A passenger reported the crew announced engine #4 had been shut down
To lose one engine may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness.

Which incident involved a double engine shutdown?

[Yankee Whisky]

First RR then GE. Is there a case to be made that we are experiencing a typical "bathtub curve" failure characteristic ? Or.....is it possible we are entering an area where these (very) high power plants have met their designer's limit of knowledge and capabilities ? :confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

Or.....is it possible we are entering an area where these (very) high power plants
On an A380? Not even close, power-wise, to a GE90. More like overstepping the cutting-things-fine line.

[nojwod]

20 minutes to FL100? - Artie

Flightradar 24 indicates the aircraft got to 19,000' just about over Mudgee when it climbed no further and turned due east.

20 minutes was probably from pushback...

[DaveReidUK]

Which incident involved a double engine shutdown?

None. That was my point. :ugh:

[RamRod67]

This report mentions the flight number but not the aircraft tail number. Would anyone happen to know the specific tail number of the aircraft involved with any certainty, and if so, how did you go about finding out the tail number?

[BDiONU]

This report mentions the flight number but not the aircraft tail number. Would anyone happen to know the specific tail number of the aircraft involved with any certainty, and if so, how did you go about finding out the tail number?Read the report in post #4 which tells you it was A6-EDA.

[X Purr Tease]

The headline:
"DISTRESSED passengers told how they survived a mid-air emergency last night when an Emirates A380's engine exploded at 10,000 feet and forced it to turn back for an emergency landing."

Oh my! An A-380 returns to land safely on 3 engines!

I just crossed that entire route a week ago on 2 engines in a B-777! I did no know that I was in such danger!:rolleyes:

[Capt Groper]

Be Careful of sensational journalism, and self interpreted observations from a non aviation professional.

[hetfield]

HERALD SUN

at its best...

:ugh:

[Sober Lark]

Try landing one on one in KEF on a typical barely CAT II day.

[borescope]

I have been outta my game ( look at the Login name ) for 5 of the last six years but I have been an Avid PPrune watcher - - - - -, Thats why I guess I am back in the game for a little while longer !
I read the A380 Trent 900 Qantas reports and saved every detail . - - re-read it a couple of times too .
My wife bought me the Book that the pilot wrote ( De Crespigny ,QF32 )- - - then I met the guy last week at a Conference and had a chat with him - - , I think he will never forget the events and I now think he is a Lucky Hero !.

But what gets me slightly puzzled about this series of events Emirates ( A6-EDA GP7270 ) are the words " Uncontained Failure " and the total silence on real detail since 17/11/12 - - -.

Any more details ? - - a bland "time on wing" and approximate problem from the Aviation Herald and really nuthin else ?? - - What about the Analysis - - , the why's and whats ??

I am almost prepared to believe that there is a bit of a conspiracy of silence - - - .
De Crespigny ( The QF pilot ) is doing a good job of restoring Rollers reputation - - but If I worked for Rolls I would think that the jolly old Pprune guys who can winkle anything out had some Slight preferences in engines that they write about ?

Maybe Ive not been reading Pprune enuff - - - and plain missed a bit - - -, feel free to correct .

[ManaAdaSystem]

I think you should stick to reading.

[ironbutt57]

he has some valid questions

[smileandwaveboys]

First RR then GE. Is there a case to be made that we are experiencing a typical "bathtub curve" failure characteristic ? Or.....is it possible we are entering an area where these (very) high power plants have met their designer's limit of knowledge and capabilities ? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif
As I understand it, evolution in technology is similar to biological evolution in that it happens in leaps and plateaus, not a steady plod. I seem to recall the engines on the early 747s, which were the biggest in their day, much like the A380's now, had similar recurring problems. I suspect the next big leap will initially suffer, too.

[Lyman]

hi borescope....

"The silence is deafening !!"

A societal thing? The case can be made that in a culture where almost all the people allow others to make decisions for them, there will be an environment of acceptance....

Can anyone come up with a more disturbing in flight emergency than an incontinent engine at altitude? Cabin fire? Loss of vertical Stabilizer?

The culture is adversarial...there is much to be gained by maintaining a level of ignorance in the client base. How is this done?

Post incident "damage control". But there is a balance to be struck, when the client base is not informed, and subject to unwarranted and hysterical press.

QF 32, a case in point? The appetite for hysteria is satisfied; once encountered, any anomalous near-disaster becomes less interesting, especially when there is a "hero" or three to trot out, to solidify our need to be protected from danger.

Minimize the good Captain? Not at all, his work, and that of his mates was exemplary. The technical issues were initially not popularly known, became so, and have now retreated back into the protective coccoon of proprietary issues, and minimized data.

No one has written a book about the initiating technical problems. That is a book I would buy. A book about a competent crew doing what they are paid to do?

Pass.....

[Joetom]

Quote

As I understand it, evolution in technology is similar to biological evolution in that it happens in leaps and plateaus, not a steady plod. I seem to recall the engines on the early 747s, which were the biggest in their day, much like the A380's now, had similar recurring problems. I suspect the next big leap will initially suffer, too.

Just a small point, A380 engine power is between about 70 to 90 IIRC.

The 777 has had been using 115 for about 7 or 9 years I think.

IIRC, engine makers have operated upto 120/130 in testing for normal aircraft type engines, guess thrust ASIM at hi power steeings will be an interesting read..!!!

[Smilin_Ed]

Joetom, for those of us who don't fly A380s or 747s, what are the units you're using?

[DaveReidUK]

Figures match thrust in lbf x 1000.

[barit1]

Joetom is referring to engine TO thrust in KLbs, I believe.

But I won't think in the same terms (higher thrust => higher risk) - it is entirely possible the newer GP7270 engine in the A380 is higher tech than the decade-old GEnx and therefore marginally more risky at this time.

In other words, risk is more associated with newness.

[lomapaseo]

Aviation safety is predicated on certification to standards and maintenance to standards.



Every new product enters with unknowns and enters the total fleet with long standing products that have a mix of known risk (under maintenance plans) and unknowns (defects that haven't been exposed yet, and last but by no means least, maintenance hacks). On top of all this is the learning curve of the operators (crew members and mechanics).



The new products end up on the left edge of the bathtub curve mostly because the user plan (how to fly it and how to maintain it) haven't adjusted yet to the individual new problems that crop up. By the time the product is in service a year or more these lessons are well learned and we end up at the bottom of the curve as things begin to wear faster than anticipated in inspections and maintained plans. The curve turns upwards when the used product shifts to 3rd tier operators who are unable or unwilling to keep up0 with the wear out modes.



From a risk standpoint one simply looks at the rates of serious consequences in balance with exposure (how many similar products).



Sure, one bang sounds serious only when you imagine a hundred more in quick succession. But then again the response of the manufacturers and the operators to understand and provide closure on the problem is always fast enough to limit the total exposure to the passenger.



Nothing new here in this thread and maybe time to move it to more technical discussions until something else shows up in R&N

[borescope]

Thanks learned Gentlemen ( Lomapaseo) .

I must admit that I have a little difficulty extrapolating anything new from what has been added - - - but my curiosity goes on and thanks for :ok:the earlier comments about how I should stick to reading !

Just for the record - - I and my entire family live under the flight path just east of Mudgee Australia where the most recent events happened , so I like to know whats going to give my 6 grandchildren headache at that hour of the day - - and help prevent it if possible.

In the past I have taken part in solving Engine problems and supplying new solutions , but as I dont work for an Airline Engineering dept - - I look for little Clue's on your threads when incidents like this happen .

Incidentally I have travelled on both Emirates and Qantas A380's - - I like them both - - to keep flying just fine .

Love your work Gents .

[fdr]

The real gem was when Emirates was seeking damages from Rolls-Royce shortly after the QF incident, (even though Emirates has GE engine on their fleet). Emirates' claimed the QF engine failure had tarnished the image of all A-380's, thus causing a loss of value to Emirates' fleet.

Maybe QF, Singapore and Lufthansa will seek damages from Emirates now for the same reasoning?:)

Perhaps Garuda, 1-2-Go, or Swazi airways, Air Botswana should also sue Emirates for tarnishing the esteem that their aviation companies are held in... ? Seems fair.:D

[Flying Bean]

Just saw this thread now.
There was another very similar incident where Emirates lost an engine climbing out of Lusaka mid Oct. That was an A330-200
see

Emirates blows engine out of Lusaka

in African Aviation forum

[mr Q]

A slow climber !!