IMC

[85mel]

Having just passed my skills, can i still get an IMC? some people said that with a new EASA licence I can't. Can I get an an old style licence?

[soaringhigh650]

Broadly speaking, the IMC rating is dead, soon to he replaced with a much more achievable ICAO-complaint IR.

If you don't already have one, you cannot add it to an EASA license, and you need to hold such a license to fly EASA registered aircraft.

[flyingpony]

It can be added to a national CAA licence as an IMC rating, or to an EASA licence as an Instrument Rating (Restricted) -(with the same privileges)

[riverrock83]

You can definitely get one. However it isn't clear whether it will be added as an IR(r) to your EASA licence or whether you will be given a second UK only licence with it on it, which can only be used in Annex II aircraft (after a certain date).
The documentation says you can't add the IR(r) after April 2014 (I think) to an EASA licence, but doesn't say that you can before that date (it only talks about conversion from a JAR licence).

The only way you will know how it will work is to get it in writing from the CAA - or find someone who has done it.

The IMC rating isn't completely dead yet - there is still lobbying going on, but it looks less and less likely that people will get it in the future (as I say above - you will always be able to put it onto a UK only licence, which can piggy back your EASA licence - but it wont be much use as its Annex II only).

Clear as mud

[85mel]

And can I get a UK licence as well as EASA? How? Thanks

[wb9999]

As riverrock83 and flyingpony, you can add an IMC to a UK national PPL, and you can still get that (in addition to an EASA licence), at a cost of £35.

The CAA haven't yet said definitively what happens if you don't have an IMC at the time you apply for an EASA licence, so there may still be the option to add it to an EASA licence up to 2014.

[Justiciar]

There is a recent thread dealing with this and it does appear apparently as an IR(R) when you renew your licence as opposed to revalidate your rating. I was interested in this as my IMCR lapsed almost 5 years ago and I will need to jump through some hoops to renew it after 5 years and after 10 years redo the exams. There is a CAP something which explains it all.

[Johnm]

This whole EASA licensing firago is a bureaucratic nightmare. I'm of the view that CAA implementation of EASA rules is now positively dangerous because of the confusion it is causing.

For what it's worth I'd strongly recommend taking an IMCR course as even if they can't find a way of adding the rating to your licence, if you find yourself with a weather issue you will have the skills to deal with it and can argue the legalities on the ground later. In most cases if you haven't acted recklessly a safety related decision by a PIC trumps any rule and the more skills you have the better.

[wb9999]

Justiciar, the original poster was asking about adding a new IMC to a new licence, not a renewal or replacement licence. The CAA have not said if an IMC/IR(R) can be added to a new or existing EASA licence. They have only said that an existing IMC will be grandfathered from a CAA or JAR licence to EASA.

[Bob Upanddown]

In all the Part-FCL documents on the EASA site, proposed or otherwise, there is nothing I can see that allows for the issue of a rating such as the IMC or IR(R). The requirements for flight in IMC are an IR and the rules for getting an IR are the EIR or full IR.
There is provision to allow NAA’s to issue a licence in a way that does not remove the privileges of the licence holder so, I am guessing, that the UK CAA are issuing the IR(R) on that basis.

[peterh337]

One advantage of doing the IMCR is that the proposed CBM IR will allow a credit for much of the IMCR training.

The current JAA IR does not allow credit for anything, short of another ICAO IR (e.g. the FAA IR).

Of course, all of this is in a state of flux anyway....

However my view, formed over the 12 years I've been kicking around this silly paper collection game, is that if you have a chance to collect a qualification, go for it. Especially one which is actually really useful. The IMCR will change the way you plan a flight and the way you execute the flight, very much for the better and safer.

[mossie1960]

I've just done my IMC..

I have a JAA PPL(A).

I am using form SG1104 to convert my JAA PPL(A) to an EASA licence.
Adding an IR(r) to it using my IMC test/training signoff. It will appear on the licence as an IR(R) - which is an IR but with the restrictions as pertain to an IMCR (how bloody sensible !).

I will apply (little tick box on the SG1104 form to do it) for a National PPL so I can continue to FLY annex2 aircraft as I also fly a permit to fly homebuilt - which I cannot do on an EASA licence (but can on my JAA one...but as that will be converted to an EASA - oh I'm sure you're keeping up !).

203 of my British pounds and a 2 month wait should sort that little lot out... But I think I'm going to wait and add the night rating to the EASA licence at the same time.

Oh - and just make sure that the CAA already know and have stated that you are a proficient English speaker to level 6 or I'm told that it could delay the issue of the EASA licence until they find out.. probably via the irate phone call you make about the delay..ah - but they have that covered as they have turned the phones off for most of the day because of the number of calls they are getting about the EASA licences....

Will be gin clear weather from now on..

Cheers..:O

[BEagle]

Having just passed my skills, can i still get an IMC?

YES!!

Provided you apply before Apr 2014, your Part-FCL licence can include an IR(R), which is identical in all respects to an IMC Rating!!

Some of the utter nonsense written on this thread makes me wonder quite how many other ill-informed half-truths are circulating around the bazaars these days.....:mad:

But yes, I quite agree that EASA Part-FCL is an absurd, pointless, unwanted and totally unnecessary piece of junk legislation!

[thing]

I'm glad you popped up Beags as although I'm not a legislation expert I at least knew what you just posted, I didn't feel confident enough to post on it though! :)

It is as Beags says.

[Level Attitude]

Quote:
Having just passed my skills, can i still get an IMC? YES!!

Provided you apply before Apr 2014, your Part-FCL licence can include an IR(R), which is identical in all respects to an IMC Rating!!

BEagle
VERY DEFINITE answer.
As IR(R) is not a recognised EASA Rating. How can it be added to an existing "True" Part-FCL License?

As EU law prevents us from losing existing privileges any Ratings on
a "Deemed to be" Part-FCL (eg JAR) License have to be carried over
to the new "True" Part-FCL - hence if IMC on "old" License then IR(R)
will be added at time of License conversion - provided this takes place
before April 2014.

I see no way for a National Rating to be added to an existing EASA License. Hence someone who has just passed their Skils Test can do an IMC and get it issued on to a UK National Livence - but not on their EASA Part-FCL
I do hope I'm wrong, and you are right. Please explain how!

[Captain Gadget]

BEags

Thanks to your pragmatism and savoir-faire we now all know (if we didn't already) that a UK IMCR, added to a UK PPL before April 2014, will result in a 'grandfathered' IR(R).

So far, so good.

However, I don't know if I will be able to afford to undertake an IMCR course before then (although I would very much wish to).

So please indulge me a little further (also for the benefit of the PPRuNe GA community at large...) is there yet an EASA syllabus for the IR(R) for those without such 'grandfather' rights? If, so, how many hours? And would/will it confer privileges outside UK airspace?

Just wondering...

Gadget :ok:

Edit: I think that overlaps a bit with Level Attitude's query above...

[BEagle]

So please indulge me a little further (also for the benefit of the PPRuNe GA community at large...) is there yet an EASA syllabus for the IR(R) for those without such 'grandfather' rights? If, so, how many hours? And would/will it confer privileges outside UK airspace?


1. The IR(R) is simply the name given to the UK IMCr when attached to a Part-FCL licence.

2. There is no 'EASA IR(R)' syllabus; training is the same as it has always been.

3. The IR(R) is restricted to the same privileges as the UK IMCr, hence it has no validity outside UK airspace.

4. Under current EASA proposals, any IMC rating application received after Apr 2014 would not be eligible for inclusion on a Part-FCL licence; instead it would be included in a national UK licence and could not be used on EASA aeroplanes.

5. The NPA 2011-16 CRD has raised such anger at the brusque dismissal of the FCL.600(b) proposal to reintroduce the provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175(b) that hard questions are being asked at very high level! The EASA rulemakers "Weil Befehl ist Befehl!" attitude is unacceptable and they need to address the issue to the commission. So our fight for continuance of the IMCr / IR(R) goes on!

6. An IR(R) is an EASA IR(A) restricted to UK IMCr privileges in accordance with the Aircrew Regulation.

[wb9999]

BEagle
VERY DEFINITE answer.
As IR(R) is not a recognised EASA Rating. How can it be added to an existing "True" Part-FCL License?

As EU law prevents us from losing existing privileges any Ratings on
a "Deemed to be" Part-FCL (eg JAR) License have to be carried over
to the new "True" Part-FCL - hence if IMC on "old" License then IR(R)
will be added at time of License conversion - provided this takes place
before April 2014.

I see no way for a National Rating to be added to an existing EASA License. Hence someone who has just passed their Skils Test can do an IMC and get it issued on to a UK National Livence - but not on their EASA Part-FCL
I do hope I'm wrong, and you are right. Please explain how!

That was my understanding also. CAP 804 states that an IR(R)/IMC can only be included on an EASA licence on conversion from a JAR/CAA licence. It makes no mention of adding it to an existing EASA licence. The OP was asking about adding an IR(R) to what would be an existing EASA licence (he/she has only just passed the skills test).

[cessna24]

I have been given many different answers but my question is,
My IMC lapsed in June this year. How long have I got to renew it before I loose it for good?
It's on my licence which I renewed at the beginning of this year

Kind regards
c24

[riverrock83]

Beagle
You have said this confidently before elsewhere which just confuses things because you dance around the issue.
I understand that your background is incredibly strong in licensing issues - you often appear to have access to knowledge that us mere mortals don't - so please don't take this as disrespect.
I'm reacting to your comment:
Some of the utter nonsense written on this thread makes me wonder quite how many other ill-informed half-truths are circulating around the bazaars these daysSimple, hopefully unambiguous question.
Can you add an IR(r) to a New Part-FCL licence (ie - not during a conversion)?
If so - please provide the reference / source / quote that says you can.

We know (and can reference) that you can get it added during conversion from JAR to Part-FCL licence.
We also know that you can add it to a new UK National PPL (which is essentially piggy backing the Part-FCL licence) for evermore, but know that this is Annex II only (it will not let you fly EASA aircraft in IMC).

I asked this in a previous thread without a clear answer from yourself, so please don't treat us like fools.

[BEagle]

riverrock83, I'm soooooooo very sorry that my free advice and licensing clarification has not been to your total satisfaction.....:rolleyes:

Anyway, wb9999 et al., fresh from the CAA:

An IMCR first obtained prior to 8th April 2014 can be added in the form of an EASA Instrument Rating with restrictions (IR(R)) to a UK-issued Part-FCL licence at any time in the future, including after 8th April 2014. This is in accordance with Article 4 of Regulation 1178/2011

It is only IMCRs first obtained from 8th April 2014 onwards that cannot be added to Part-FCL licences as to do so would not be the preservation of a privilege obtained before the aircrew regulation became mandatory (in this particular aspect).

It is implicit in the CAP 804 text that the IR(R) can be added to a Part-FCL licence issued after 17 September as Part-FCL licences were not issued before that date.

The CAA has also agreed to amend the relevant text in the next amendment to CAP 804 to make this completely clear.

cessna24, you asked:

My IMC lapsed in June this year. How long have I got to renew it before I loose it for good?


As you will hopefully have deduced from the CAA's response and from CAP 804, if you ever held IMCR privileges before 8 Apr 2014, even if they lapsed years ago you will still be able to renew them on a Part-FCL licence issued (or upon conversion) at any time in the future. So if they lapsed 20 years ago and you waited until 2020 to renew them, you would simply follow the same renewal process as outlined in CAP 804.

However, to exercise IMCR privileges on an EASA aeroplane after 8 Apr 2014, you will need to have converted a JAR-FCL licence (or UK non-JAR-FCL licence) to a Part-FCL licence which includes the new term IR (Restricted).

[riverrock83]

Sarcasm noted :ok:. I know that your time and expertise is greatly appreciated on here...

So that is a Yes - and this is based on your reading of CAP804, which doesn't say directly (it only directly talks about JAR conversions and the UK National PPL), but implicitly suggests that if you get a Part-FCL licence, then later complete the IMC course, and get the paper work to CAA before 8th April 2014, you will receive an IR(r) on your Part-FCL license (rather than the alternative national PPL with IMC Rating).

And the basis of this, is that you can't lose the privilege of being able to add an IMCR / IR(r) to your licence before April 2014 to allow you to fly EASA aircraft in IMC in the future, which trumps the other EASA regulation that says you can't add a national rating to a Part-FCL licence.

Is that a fair summary? As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't say that you can't add a new IR(r) to an already acquired Part-FCL licence. Its just quite expensive to do something based on an untested, implicit assertion (which is why I hope someone else gets a definitive, written answer from the CAA before I start!

As I've said elsewhere - I'm looking to do my PPL skills test soon, and so start to plan out what to do with my licence to learn for the next year or so, and I would like an IR(r) to feature in there, as it seems more useful than an EIR in the UK.

[cessna24]

BEagle,

Fantastic.......thank you.

That's answered it perfectly.

Kregards

c24

[BEagle]

riverrock83, which part of fresh from the CAA do you find difficulty in understanding?

The clarification came in an e-mail received this morning in response to my request for confirmation.

Once you have your Part-FCL PPL, you will be able to include an IR(R) in it if you pass the IMC training and testing and apply before Apr 2014.

[riverrock83]

Beagle
That's brilliant - thanks for your time and effort.
I should have read your post more carefully. Apologies.
RR

[tmmorris]

BEags,

If I have to have converted my JAR-FCL PPL(A) with IMCR to EASA by 8 Apr 2014 in order to have an IR(R) added to it, will the CAA contact me to remind me or do I have to initiate this? (If you know!)

At the moment my JAR-FCL PPL(A) expires in 2016 so I don't want to find I've missed the deadline.

Tim

[soaringhigh650]

The skills taught and learnt for the IMC rating is invaluable. Whether or not this rating actually exists ON A LICENSE after 2014 shouldn't matter.

If it doesn't why not issue a completion certificate, just like aerobatics?
After all the IMCR was designed for one to return home after inadvertent IMC encounter.

It wasn't designed to be a 15-hour easy-to-get IR with 20% of the training, which is what EASA fundamentally cannot accept.

[BEagle]

If I have to have converted my JAR-FCL PPL(A) with IMCR to EASA by 8 Apr 2014 in order to have an IR(R) added to it, will the CAA contact me to remind me or do I have to initiate this? (If you know!)

If you haven't converted your JAR-FCL PPL(A) + IMCR to a Part-FCL PPL(A) with IR(R) before 8 Apr 2014, you won't be able to exercise IMCR privileges on EASA aeroplanes between then and the date when you do convert. Although you will be able to exercise such privileges on suitably non-EASA Annex II aeroplanes.

So, in your case you either convert a couple of years before your JAR-FCL PPL(A) expires and keep your IMCR / IR(R) privileges on both EASA and non-EASA aeroplanes - or, if you're not bothered about IMCR privileges on EASA aeroplanes for a couple of years, then you can wait if you like. It's your choice!

soaringhigh650, the UK IMCR is a rating which has proved entirely safe for whatever purpose the holder has decided to use it. For about 40 years.

This nonsense about it being a 'get you home after inadvertant IMC encounter' is utter rubbish...:= For example, FIs very often use it to acheive VMC above cloud to teach early attitude flying exercises, then drop down through the cloud for recovery. You should NOT need a full IR for that sort of activity!

The privileges and limitations of the IMCR / IR(R) are commensurate with the training and theoretical knowledge requirements; unfortunately the rating was very poorly explained to EASA at the time when they were drawing up their "Ein Volk, eine Regel!" regulations....:mad:

[bookworm]

As I've said elsewhere - I'm looking to do my PPL skills test soon, and so start to plan out what to do with my licence to learn for the next year or so, and I would like an IR(r) to feature in there, as it seems more useful than an EIR in the UK.

One thing to bear in mind is that "instrument flight instruction provided by an IRI(A) or an FI(A) holding the privilege to provide training for the IR" while you're training for the IMC rating, or any PiC time on instruments after you have the IMC rating, can be counted towards the 40 hours instrument time for an IR.

To the best of my knowledge the CAA didn't include a method of lifting the restriction on the IR(R) in its conversion report. I think it missed a trick there.

[BEagle]

To the best of my knowledge the CAA didn't include a method of lifting the restriction on the IR(R) in its conversion report. I think it missed a trick there.

I doubt whether they will expend much effort on IR(R) conversions until both the EIR and C-B IR have been passed to the comitology stage - otherwise the work could well have proven to be nugatory.

[soaringhigh650]

unfortunately the rating was very poorly explained to EASA at the time

So have they fired the lobbyist and/or their researcher(s) and replaced them with someone better?

Sounds like something went badly wrong at the upper management levels of AOPA.

[BEagle]

Sounds like something went badly wrong at the upper management levels of AOPA.

AOPA didn't have a member on FCL.008, soaringhigh650, despite requests to be allowed one - which was a singular bone of contention. The UK reps on FCL.088 did not represent our national position adequately, hence the current situation.

I suggest that you do a little more research before casting further erroneous aspersions....

[soaringhigh650]

AOPA didn't have a member on FCL.008, soaringhigh650, despite requests to be allowed one - which was a singular bone of contention

You don't need two AOPA members on FCL.008. The idea is that AOPA organizes itself properly so that the UK rep talks to the EU rep.

The UK reps on FCL.088 did not represent our national position adequately, hence the current situation.

So someone needs firing in AOPA UK then.
I have nothing more to say.

[BEagle]

I have nothing more to say.

Noted.

.

[bookworm]

I doubt whether they will expend much effort on IR(R) conversions until both the EIR and C-B IR have been passed to the comitology stage - otherwise the work could well have proven to be nugatory.

Certainly much more attractive to convert after the much reduced TK requirement of the EIR/CBM-IR is established. But I can't see why an upgrade route of some sort couldn't be offered. Anyway, it seems Cliff saw it your way. The CBM-IR should offer a sensible upgrade route in due course.