Turn Right 10 degrees

[CRMCaptain]

I have a problem when ATC gives me those kind of instructions ... it seems dangerously vague to me. Is it even allowed? In the "ATC for dummies" class I had to take in college, they always taught me that a vector has 3 numbers.

Turn right one - zero degrees ... sounds to me like a right turn to a heading of 010.

So I got into a bit of a pissing contest with a lady way to high on her horse on my flight today, what do you guys think on the matter?

[BaldEd]

Nothing wrong with "Turn right 10 degrees". It just means that ATC wants you to turn right 10 degrees from whatever your current heading is. It is not important that ATC knows what your current heading was, they are just monitoring your track made good and just want you to make a small adjustment to it, probably to ensure separation from hills, other aircraft, better positioning for sequencing, handover to another controller etc. When ATC want you to fly a specific heading (vector) they will tell you.

[Hempy]

ATC have no idea what your compass is showing, only your track over the ground. In the old days it was;

'...Report heading'
'...heading 070'
'...turn right heading 080'

Now preference is to cut out the first two transmissions and just go with '...turn right 10 degrees'.

[40years]

In my day we used 'Turn right 10 degrees and report new heading'. Nothing ambiguous in that.

[Rick777]

Turn right 10 degrees is fine. So is turn right to 010 degrees. They just mean two very different things.

[TheFalcon]

Agree with you there "40 years" its the simplest way and totally unequivocable:ok:

[Spodman]

Standard way of avoiding the inadvertent 350 degree turn... Must admit I only use it when I don't really mind which way they turn, in case the mathematics involved confuses the poor dears.

[reportyourlevel]

In the "ATC for dummies" class I had to take in college, they always taught me that a vector has 3 numbers.

Is where the problem lies. The UK MATS Pt1 gives:

turn left/right heading (three digits) degrees*
turn left/right (number) degrees and report that heading

[doc_exe]

if you want acft to fly on heading 010 you say " turn right heading 010" (without degrees)

else


"turn left 10 degrees" and that means turn by 10 degrees from your heading

simple as that

[kharmael]

No, always include the unit of measurement.

If its a heading they want they'll say "Turn right heading 010 degrees" If they want a turn by a set amount they'll say "Turn right ten degrees".

[Occams Razor]

Turn right heading zero wun zero degrees

Turn right wun zero degrees, report new heading

Seems different enough to me.

[Talkdownman]

On the Sim we old Simjocks get overseas students doing this, for example:

"Fly heading 220 (no degrees...)"

220 then requires a correction.

"Turn right ten (not one zero) degrees, report new heading"

:ugh:

[2 sheds]

Talkdownman

Don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you seriously suggesting that having assigned a heading, you then specify an angle through which to turn? And where do you get "ten" from, RTF-wise? And you are instructing this sort of thing?

2 s

[mad_jock]

in case the mathematics involved confuses the poor dears.

thankyou its most appreciated, and some times required on day 6 after three earlies followed by three lates :ok:

[On the beach]

I can't understand why they have an "ATC for Dummies" course in the USA. :E

On the beach

P.S. Never needed it myself. That could explain a lot, though. :)

[In_Transit]

i use "turn right one-zero degrees" or "turn right heading two-one-zero" (no degrees) if i'm asking you to turn a certain number of degrees, i usually don't care what heading you're on and it saves time not needing the 2 readbacks (degrees & heading)

[jpc]

i use "turn right one-zero degrees" or "turn right heading two-one-zero" (no degrees) if i'm asking you to turn a certain number of degrees, i usually don't care what heading you're on and it saves time not needing the 2 readbacks (degrees & heading)

Absolutely. You can find in the PANS-ATM (doc 4444) under 12.4.1.3 Vectoring Instructions:


(...)
d) FLY HEADING (three digits);
e) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) HEADING (three digits) [reason];
f) TURN LEFT (or RIGHT) (number of degrees) DEGREES [reason];
(...)

[justanotherflyer]

i usually don't care what heading you're on and it saves time not needing the 2 readbacks (degrees & heading)

Although often enough, one is asked to report the new heading.

Generally my response is (e.g.): "Turn right ten degrees..." [quick mental calculation] "... new heading XXX, NXXX", all in one readback.

Seems to work. Adverse comments welcome for consideration, however.

[Talkdownman]

Are you seriously suggesting that having assigned a heading, you then specify an angle through which to turn? And where do you get "ten" from, RTF-wise?
The mature students come to CTC on 'ATC refresher courses'. They have brought this 'add an angular change' technique with them from their country. They do not always record the headings therefore forget the original assigned heading. Heading corrections are often dealt with in this way. It makes us cringe.

And you are instructing this sort of thing?
CERTAINLY NOT! We are trying to eradicate it and get them to specify each heading. But it's difficult to get them to change...

[2 sheds]

Talkdownman

Ah, I see - your original terminology...

On the Sim we old Simjocks get overseas students doing this

...I misinterpreted as "we encourage them to do" rather than "we discover that this is what they do"!

The subtleties of the English language - in many respects quite unsuitable for aviation communications.

2 s

[Talkdownman]

Ha ha! Communication and its weaknesses! Example:

Driver and front-seat passenger at a difficult road junction:

"Is it clear on the left"

"No one coming...."

[5milesbaby]

All I think on the matter is that I really hope that "CRM" "Captain" and "I got into a bit of a pissing contest with a lady way to high on her horse on my flight today" aren't all true. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[coracle]

But who won the pissing contest?

[Big Pistons Forever]

US= more airline traffic than anywhere else by a large margin.
US= lowest airline accident rate than everywhere else by a significant margin
US= highest capacity ATC system than everywhere else in the world

And somehow they manage to safely and efficiently push the tin without a mindless slavish addiction to European radio pedantry......go figure:rolleyes:

[Vercingetorix]

Big Pistons Forever

Ah, but what about the traffic density!
US= more Sq miles than anywhere.
US= more space for all those aircraft.

Easy peasy!

:ok:

[Agaricus bisporus]

"Turn right ten degrees" and "turn right ten degrees report new heading" require completely different responses so reporting the heading when not asked for it is neither correct nor required, It may be confusing as the controller will not be expecting it and may talk over it. Indeed, have heard bollockings handed out on busy London and German freqs for just that. After all, you wouldn't think of telling them the heading for "direct XXXXX" unless they ask for it. Would you???

Basic RT discipline, I'd have thought.

[criss]

US= more airline traffic than anywhere else by a large margin.
US= lowest airline accident rate than everywhere else by a significant margin
US= highest capacity ATC system than everywhere else in the world

And somehow they manage to safely and efficiently push the tin without a mindless slavish addiction to European radio pedantry......go figure

One knew this had to come at one point or the other.

[reportyourlevel]

One knew this had to come at one point or the other.

Yep, it's the ATC version of Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).

[Artic Monkey]

"Turn right ten degrees" and "turn right ten degrees report new heading" require completely different responses so reporting the heading when not asked for it is neither correct nor required, It may be confusing as the controller will not be expecting it and may talk over it. Indeed, have heard bollockings handed out on busy London and German freqs for just that. After all, you wouldn't think of telling them the heading for "direct XXXXX" unless they ask for it. Would you???

Basic RT discipline, I'd have thought.

I completely agree, Agaricus. How many times do you hear ATC say "ABC123 turn left 10 deg", and ABC123 respond with "Turn left 10 deg and new hdg is.....um...is xxx deg". It's irrelevant, if ATC want to know your heading they'll ask you to report it. In the meantime others are trying to get a word in. If they ask you to turn left 10 deg, then turn left 10 deg and read back "turn left 10 deg, ABC123".

[10W]

US= more airline traffic than anywhere else by a large margin.
US= lowest airline accident rate than everywhere else by a significant margin
US= highest capacity ATC system than everywhere else in the world



Do you have the reference documents where these stats are collated ?

I think #2 is wrong for starters.

[nelsonmadiba]

What a useless,lame topic.

Even my nephew would not have such an issue.

Stay safe

[off watch]

@nelson
As an active radar ATCO, to me it's not as lame as asking about possible residential law changes in the UAE :ugh:

[KKoran]

Since the original poster is in the US, here's the FAA guidance:

JO 7110.65
5-6-2. METHODS

a. Vector aircraft by specifying:

1. Direction of turn, if appropriate, and magnetic heading to be flown, or

PHRASEOLOGY-
TURN LEFT/RIGHT HEADING (degrees).

FLY HEADING (degrees).

FLY PRESENT HEADING.

DEPART (fix) HEADING (degrees).

2. The number of degrees, in group form, to turn and the direction of turn, or

PHRASEOLOGY-
TURN (number of degrees) DEGREES LEFT/RIGHT.

[Ditchdigger]

I have a problem when ATC gives me those kind of instructions ... it seems
dangerously vague to me. Is it even allowed? In the "ATC for dummies" class I
had to take in college, they always taught me that a vector has 3 numbers.


Turn right one - zero degrees ... sounds to me like a right turn to a
heading of 010.

So I got into a bit of a pissing contest with a lady
way to high on her horse on my flight today, what do you guys think on the
matter?


I referred this question to Mrs. Ditchdigger (an FAA controller of the Tower/TRACON variety), and her answer concurs roughly with what KKoran has posted above.

What she said differs only in that she would say "Turn right/left (number of degrees) degrees", as opposed to the phraseology specified above, "Turn (number of degrees) degrees right/left."

Further, she explained (without my having mentioned the term), that "group form" means the number of degrees (10) would be spoken as "ten". Headings would be spoken as the individual numbers, i.e. zero-one-zero.

Therefore, it would seem that the lady in question, if she gave a right turn of "one-zero degrees" was not using proper phraseology.