Time to stop the Coningsby flying club?

[Flap62]

It seems to me that many of the problems for the FJ world at the moment can be summed up with "too much work, not enough play".
We all know how it works - "sorry chaps we're overstretched so we still have to go to Saudi/falklands/Turkey but we are going to cancel Flag and the Sqn exchange".
It seems to me that we have to make the most of the assets we have which act as a light at the end of the tunnel for some people.
One of these assets should be the BBMF. For too long it has been run as a private air force by a small mafia and is a nice little perk for some at Cgy. Why not run this rather like the Reds with a selection procedure and a place on the "team" for 3 years. It need not be a full time job which might limit where successful aplicants came from but ask guys at Cott/Witt/Mar/Colt/
Wadd/Cran if they'd be willing to travel once or twice a week and I know the answer you'd get.

The good deals open to the average mate can now be counted on the fingers of one hand - lets open this one up to make it fairer for everybody.

[Yozzer]

Flaps: Mate you must have logged on with the wrong name, because you usually make such an **** of yourself, yet I find that I am with you 100% on this one.

Either that or you have passed a maturity threshold, when was your birthday?

Yozzer

Are the BBMF not moving to Scampton with all the other Egoes? Perhaps there is hope for the Hoover mates yet!

Keep a Wessex alive thats what I say;)

[opso]

It doesn't look like they are off to Scampton - they may well end up boltholing to Barkston Heath for a while owing to wip at Coningsby next year, but it would seem likely that they will return after that.

[Big Green Arrow]

Last time I looked they already used guys from the Multi School and Nav School and the Airman Aircrew School to fly the Dak/Lanc. I believ Barkston is only temp until Cgy is complete.

[Mr C Hinecap]

BGA - correct.:D

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

Having read some of your comments on other threads do you honestly think they would let you fly BBMF.

I wouldn't let you put air in the tyres!!!!!

[Flap62]

Rad-alt,
you haven't said whether you think it should be open to all though. And what about the rest of the shags out there - is everyone happy that there is a system in place which allows some-one (however good a job he has done - this is not a personal attack) to get 1000hrs in spits and Hurris. Wouldn't it be so much better to spread the good times throughout a hard pressed air force rather than keep it to a "few".


ps I refuse to rise to your bait Rad-alt as I think that this topic merits discussion and so I'll not have my tongue firmly in my cheek as I type (unlike other contributions).

[ShyTorque]

I think you chaps should bear in mind that the aircraft you are talking about are part of our national heritage and as such should not be allowed to be flown by "shags".

Sorry, they aren't there for your amusement.

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.

:rolleyes:

[bad livin']

Flap - as there's no formal selection procedure currently in place, are there ANY definite requirements beyond a "face that fits" or wildly precocious facial hair? Do F3 types always get first dibs as is suggested here?

It seems a shame if this is the case when everyone who flies frontline has by necessity proved themselves competent and skilled operators, who work hard and provide an invaluable service to the UK.

MORE FUN FOR ALL!

[BEagle]

When I was at Coningsby, the guys who were selected to fly the priceless BBMF aircraft had to 'fit in', be prepared to work weekends despite their 'day jobs' of teaching people like me to fly the F4 and to prove themselves to the likes of that awfully nice Mr Wratten.

They didn't just jump straight into a Mk19 Spit and roar off - there was a very careful work up programme which went (I think) Chipmunk, then Hurricane, then 'little' Spit, then - after many hours on the Flight - 'big' Spit.

Not something that some 'shag' can readily aspire to unless located at the same base as the BBMF. I'm not quite sure why a Lancaster is considered part of a 'Battle of Britain' memorial flight - but it is. What a shame that we haven't got a flying museum which can also still keep Meteors, Vampires, Venoms, Hunters, Gnats etc flying as well. The civvies do that - and a grand job they do as well!!

Personally I think that the BBMF does a much better job than a certain team of red aeroplanes just up the road from them do...

[Flap62]

Shy torque and Beagle,
Obvously the word "shag" has different meanings to me and you. You seem to see it as some gash, junior bloke. I see shag as being a Flt Lt/FO junior officer who carries the burden of sqn duties. It is the "shag" QWIs who plan and lead the dets., it is the "shag" QFIs who put in all the hard work to get through AFIs and it is the "regular shags" who make the sqn run day to day. Yet somehow these guys aren't capable or fit to fly BBMF despite daily being trusted with millions of pounds of high tech kit. Shame on you for perpetuating elitist nonsense.
You will also notice that I suggested that candidates would need to go through a selection procedure. It should be obvious to all that a set up where it is all decided "in house" at Cgy is always going to be open to criticisms of nepotism. I don't suggest that the team should not have an input (indeed, quite properly the Reds do), but that overall control of selection should be taken out of their hands and entry thrown open to the masses.
I also wondered how long it would take the "oh you could only do it if stationed at Cgy for reasons of continuity etc". This doesn't stop the vast majority of warbird flyers in the uk who fly once or twice a week and have other "day jobs". It also doesn't seem to stop the occasional higher ranking officer from "keeping his hand in" (I seem to remember AVM Allison stuffing a 109-was he at CGY regularly and what was his currency like).
If you try to tell me that a sharp young front line mate, flying regularly could not do the job by say driving from Marham, flying in the PM, nightstopping and flying twice AM before rtb, then I'm sorry but I just couldn't agree.
As for your point Beagle about just strapping on a spit. Please re-read my post and you will see that I never sugested that. I suggested a 3 year appointment (involving a work up), if this is not enough - ok lets make it 5 years. 1 on a chippie, one on a Harvard, 2 on a hurri and finally on a spit.
To be honest I do not have the breakdown of the Spit and Hurri drivers for the last 10 years as spotting aint my thang so to prove that it's not a Cgy flying club could someone post all the names of guys who wern't F3 and Cgy based?

Editted for tooping

[Ali Barber]

The only people posted to BBMF full time are the groundcrew and OC BBMF. All the rest are part timers with other primary jobs. All the Lanc/Dak pilots are non-CGY (one Dom, one Canberra and 3 AWACS). The other pilots are all from CGY, but even then, they cannot come from the operational sqns because they are deployed away too much (this isn't a recent caveat, it has always been there, even when overstretch wasn't so much of an issue). I can understand that membership of BBMF might be seen as a perk of being CGY based, but the a/c have to be based somewhere. The BBMF doesn't only operate at weekends and you need people based locally so as to minimse the disruption to their primary job. I had the privelage of being an F3 OCU instructor and co-pilot on the Lanc and it was the best time I have had so far in the RAF. The flying was great, but the biggest thrill and most humbling occasions were the many times when we met the "old boys" who had flown these things in anger. The BBMF is a flying museum dedicated to the memory of those who fought for us, and is not restricted to just BofB pilots. Long may it continue to fly.

[Flap62]

Ali, thank you for supporting my argiment by saying that your time on BBMF was your best time in the RAF. My point exactly. I still don't think that it washes that you have to be Cgy based to do the job part time. A rather flimsy excuse for keeping it a closed shop.
As for keeping them flying, I would agree with Beagle that they probably do more for PR in the UK than the Reds. The emphasis in the title of this thread should be put on "Coningsby".

[cheapseat]

Flaps 62

Elsewhere on prune;

“Unfortunately you all seem to be masters of whingeing on an anonymous forum whereas myself and mates like me did something when we thought conditions were unfair. We used the skills we had and spent a good deal of time and money to make them useable in the outside world, then went and got a job.”

So explain to me how you would have had time to take on this when serving, as you appear to have been busy feathering your nest. Also, as a civvy it’s actually got sod all to do with you.

[attackattackattack]

Cheapseat

Actually as a civvy I'm really quite interested in any suggestion that would enhance aircrew retention and would, therefore, increase the return I got from my taxes that are spent on aircrew training.

As a civvy I’m aware that the forces help protect my country's sovereignty and project the power and image of my country. What goes on in those forces is very definitely my business. Every citizen of this country should be profoundly interested in and active in supporting all that goes on in the forces.

Ultimately the Forces report to a body selected by the citizens of the country, civilian or otherwise. So ‘actually as a civvy’ it's got sodding everything to do with me.

I believe the same probably applies to Flaps.

[cheapseat]

So you left the forces to help aircrew retention and look after the civvies tax then?:rolleyes: :D :D

[ShyTorque]

Flap62,

No, I think I see the expression "shag" as meaning exactly the same as you appear to. I fitted that description for 18 years.

Those aircraft are too valuable to be flown part-time by someone who might see it just as a bit of fun or light relief from more mundane duties.

Sorry, we'll just have to disagree ;)

[Flap62]

Cheapseat. I think that it's right that i should comment on issues which might have persuaded me to stay. It was not the money or tasking per se which prompted me to leave, but the constant drip drip of "sorry boys we've had to cancel this good deal as the engineers can't support that and our Op whatever commitment".
What I proposed would be virtually a no cost option and there might just be a few guys out there who would stay in to have a crack a flying part of our aviation heritage.
Torque - I guess you're right, we'd probably always disagree on any given point, but I never intended anyone to use it as a bit of light relief. Remember that it has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread that the guys flying for the BBMF have other day jobs and essentially do this "part-time". This does not mean that they are not completely professional, far from it - just as it does not mean that an experienced instructor on the Harrier OCU or at Cranwell would treat BBMF as a bit of a jolly.
There are few enough things left that give you that grin factor. As was mentioned a few posts ago, entry to the BBMF is not drawn from the Line Sqns at Cgy, so we are talking about some of the best flying being given to a very small pool of pilots.
Hard work is not a problem for most guys and so the old chestnut of "oh you're already bleating about overtasking, how could you possibly cope with this as well" just doesn't wash. Hard work is not the problem in the retention issue. Hard work with all the good bits taken away is!
At the end of the day a properly selected guy who fitted in with the team and just happened to be stationed at Cranwell could do the job and therefore he should be given the chance to. The system which allows some people to fly these beautiful aircraft for years on end accumulating over a thousand hours when guys are leaving the service because they haven't a chance of seeing a good deal is patently unfair.

[BEagle]

'Shag QWI' or 'Shag QFI' are terms which are oxymoronic. The only reason that F4 OCU instructors provided the majority (and the Major) pilots was due to their relative protection from short notice Service diversions. Hence they were able to maintain the best possible continuity outside a specially-established veteran aeroplane flying unit.

Those who suggest that popping over from other units to maintain currency on the Flight's precious aeroplanes have obviously never tried to drive to Coningsby.........

As for 'bona mates' flying with the BBMF..............words fail!!

Incidentally, flying for the BBMF is hardly a 'good deal' which should be made available to those who would otherwise leave the Service whining '''snot fair, Mummy, all those nasty F3 OCU pilots got to fly the Spits and I didn't 'cos I'm a Spicano instructor. WAAAAAH!!!" It is a vocation which only those who have the appropriate blend of flying skills, dedication and personal qualities may perhaps be fortunate enough to be invited to realise.

[Chris Kebab]

Well said Beagle.

And given that the Major taught me about 25 years ago on the OCU and must have been in his late 30s then, I can hardly see him being called a (current) front line pilot. Hence one more "bona mate" (spit) stays in the correct cockpit for all those forays abroad. So he is doing the Air Force a favour really.

[Ali Barber]

Flying for BBMF is not a "jolly" to be used as a retention measure. The hours on these precious a/c are extremely limited and every effort is made to ensure that trips for currency are avoided. If we had bona mates or anyone else coming to CGY for a currency ride so that they can display in a couple of weeks, we would wear the a/c out in no time. When I left BBMF a good few years ago, they were talking about a re-spar for the Lanc which would give it another 75 years of life at the current flying rate. That is the sort of committment there is to keeping these things going - as a tribute to fallen airmen, not as a retention-minded flying club. And, as I said in my earlier post, the BBMF is not a closed society; all the Lanc and Dak pilots come from outside CGY.

[Flap62]

Beagle,

I have always found your posts in the past to be rational and well balanced. Could you please expand on why "words fail you" at the thought of "bona mates" flying with the BBMF?

Also , the bit about vocation blah, unique blend of skills blah - isn't it an amazing coincidence that this blend would appear to be found only on the F3 OCU and OEU.

[Mach the Knife]

The reason words fail at the thought of bona mates flying these beautiful historic aircraft should be obvious to anyone who's met one, or worse, a number of them at the same time. Pop down to VIFF VIFF NOZZLY central, and if you can understand their strange language (what is a bona mate anyway) you'll be amazed at just how many nobs can be concentrated in one place.

Question: How do you know if there is a Harrier Pilot living next door to you?

[Lima Juliet]

Flap 62

I've done a bit of time on BBMF and unless you're available for 2+ afternoons a week (Exlcluding Fridays as the ac are prepped then for the weekend) then you really can't maintain enough tail-dragger currency to GUARANTEE the safety of these valuable and much-loved ac.
I suggest that if YOU can then can I have your job as I couldn't spare that amount of time in any flying posts away from BBMF's home-plate.
Secondly, look at www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/bbmfhome.html and you will see that most of the aircrew come from surrounding stations. I admit that the fighters are all flown by fighter pilots; but lets face it I wouldn't want to see it any other way!

Finally, you sound like a bitter and twisted individual. You do have to be selected by the Stn Cdr, OC Ops and OC BBMF for the priviledge to fly on the flight (Much like the Reds who do an equally good job at more expense (20:1 at last count)). Sadly FLAP I fear it ain't for you!

Soz

LJ

[Flap62]

Well, well Mach the Knife - more chips than the average happy hour.

So exactly where at Tac Weapons did it all go wrong for you?

[BEagle]

Ah - but bona mates wouldn't need so much practice on these priceless aircraft, would they? Viff, nozzles, MEXE pad, RVL, trip the limiters - doof doof, strip CBR, braking stop to you!!

It's called 'banter'.......... And anyway, they'd probably sooner join their other 'mates' in nice red romper suits!

[Splosh]

Before good ol' Flaps alienates the rest of the world, could I point out that I've only met a couple of people as obnoxious as him at Viffville?

Don't s'pose you'll believe me.

******.

PS I've never heard of a "bona mate", must be a GR3 thing. Off for some warm milk now.

[Chris Kebab]

Splosh - Bona Mate, sort of like a WIWOL only sadder!

[Mach the Knife]

Flaps 62, very nearly went horribly wrong for me at Tac weapons, finished top of the course and only my flight commanders knowledge of my desire to become a Knight of the Sky (Air Defender to you) and my lack of desire to become a soil shuffler (do we actually have anything that can move mud these days?) saved me from the Harrier posting I was threatened with. I'm very well balanced with chips on both shoulders thankyou, currently sat with over 3500 military hours, all strapped to various bangseats, 1000+ in the mighty F3. Back to your original question, you would fit in on the BBMF about as well as I would on a plastic puffa jet. (not well!) ;)

[BEagle]

In the JSP318A, the crucially relevant contents of which we had to read and sign for every few months, along with stating that a runway controller's caravan is to be equipped with a single bar electric fire, listing the Latin names of the various types of birds which threaten aerodromes and which used to have a hilarious section describing how to stand on a Land Rover and flap your arms up and down at 35 beats per minute 'as though simulating a large bird of prey', there was also a list of terms associated with the strange world of Viffspeak. Some wag had amended the one I saw, adding:

BONA - good
BONA JET - Harrier
BONA MATE - One who flies a Bona Jet
WEEDISPHERE - Operating level used by Bona Jets

..and yes, it was indeed a circa 1976 GR3 thing!

Mach the Knife is right - only the finest and blondest can aspire to the noble struggle between brother aviators in one to one aerial combat. The rest do other things - including $hit shifting in SAM7 magnets.

Back to the thread - saw the Dak the other day. Glad that we can still put such precious old ac into the air - long may the BBMF continue. If there are ever pressures to cut back, the Reds should go first!

[John Farley]

OK - banter banter banter is fine but I defy BEags or Flaps or anybody else to fly along a line feature with their right wing down and the rudder in the correct place.

[SPIT]

Hi there
Being a non (mil) flying member I think it is about time the gen public were represented in this???
It seems funny that whenever the red crowd are on at displays A LOT of the crowd seem to leave,but I personaly have never seen or heard any person going when the BBMF are flying as the seem to give SO MUCH pleasure to see these AC again and people (a lot) can relate to them when they were needin them not feeding them. Please excuse any typing errors as I am at present only able to use one arm.
All the Best to ALL YOU FLYERS who give us so much pleasure and a feeling of security.
;) ;) :p

[BEagle]

Quite right, mate! More air show customers watch historic ac than watch the Reds - a fact lost on the makers of TV air show programmes who invariably devote far too much of their programme time to yet more images of RAFAT!

It is rewarding to attend an air show which is closed by the Reds - it gives you a chance to get to the car park before the general herd!!

OK - the 'Team' are highly skilled and good PR for the RAF. But the BBMF, RN and AAC historic flights do a more demanding job in keeping irreplaceable historic aircraft flying, in my opinion.

[FJJP]

Spit - the reason that so many leave when the Reds are on is because those are the ones who want to beat the traffic out surge at the end of the show - generally that's when the Reds display.

John F - Ooooooh! I was most certainly taught the art of side-slipping when I went through BFTS & AFTS (JPs & Varsitys). Also, a venerable old salt taught me the art of getting an extra 5-10 kts in the cruise in 4-jets by trimmimg correctly; hold the wings dead level manually and watch the compass - then trim the rudder to stop any turn tendancy, finishing with aileron trim. Right wing down and the rudder in the right place? Not difficult if taught properly.

[fobotcso]

FJJP, Huh? This'll be fun!!!

[BEagle]

FJJP - seem to remember that the technique for maintaining straight and level balanced flight is taught rather earlier in the course of training? Just after E of C 2 if I remember correctly!

It is hardly surprising that a correctly trimmed aeroplane will produce less drag and will therefore gain a few more knots over one which is, err, crabbing along!

[John Farley]

FJJP.

Ah! now I understand. Thanks.

Funny place to do sideslip CT though. Still you have to take any chance you get to practice things these days I suppose.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Totally as an aside why did I see a Spit in BoB stripes barel rolling down Filtons easterly runway on Sat tea-time?

Nearly caused a pile up on the M5 I noted. It got my adrenalin going and seeing it made my day.

WWW

[Man-on-the-fence]

WWW

Dont you mean invasion stripes??

Possibly PS853 the ex BBMF machine now owned by Rolls Royce, a first outing after hibernation perhaps. I know its technically based at East Midlands but it usually winters in Bristol as far as I understand it.

Now if I could only find a piccy......(that was in focus :) )

[DamienB]

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/events/full/fle00217.jpg

[SixOfTheBest]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,

Let's stop arguing over who are the better pilots! We all know the truth.......I've got to stick with Flaps on this one. Notwithstanding all the arguments already mentioned, why is it off-limits to F3 front-line geezers? Surely there aren't many operations the F3 is committed to? (by the way, that's supporting F3 mates!). Perhaps i'm wrong? Anyway, F3's know S!it about air combat! Don't forget, a fair few mud squadrons out there were once jousting with ME109's etc (by the way, that's supporting muddies). I say open it up, the posted reasons as to why not just don't add up.

[Reichman]

Does it really matter who flies the things? As long as they are flown well - which I think they are. There seem to be a lot of sour grapes being thrown about. Sure we'd all like to fly a Spitfire or Hurricane, but there's no need to go around with the attitude of "Well if I can't fly them then I don't want anyone else to".

If you're an aviation enthusiast grow up and enjoy the displays.

If not, moan about flying suits or something.

[Flap62]

Reichman, I do wish you would read more than the topic title before making an A**e of yourself and launching into print. Where in any of my posts does it suggest that "if I can't fly them no one can"?. I emphasise throughout that they do a marvellous job and must stay flying. The point is - who flys them not do they fly at all.

I also can't be bothered any more by continuing this topic, as the usual "well I can pee higher than you brigade" have started. Lets just remember that the core issue of my original post was that the BBMF should be open to application from all types. Unfortunately those less secure in their ability or role have decided to drag it down to the usual schoolboy level.