fATPL is only halfway there if that

[Jugs08]

To anyone out there I'd advise you not to start training integrated unless you can afford the 1.2k a month repayments. If your family will be stretched to achieve the money for your fatpl. And you can't fund a type rating you have very close to Zero if any chance of a jet job. Even to instruct you will need to find 7k more.

Having just finished my training debt free at least I don't have these crippling payments to make. There are thousands of people with a fatpl and others with time on type.

Seriously get your training done cost effectively and without as much debt as possible. The bar has been moved; a fatpl isn't the end and there are more costs required. If you can't afford a type rating after training. I would suggest a re-think.

[Jugs08]

You are going to need 80 to 120k to stand a chance of making it.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Fatpl and 200hrs never was the bar.

[Jugs08]

I know but it's further away. An the majority of people do not realise that it isn't it.

[clunk1001]

I spend most of my time in the bar now. With my fATPL for company.

[Bealzebub]

Yes. At the other end of the spectrum, I am seeing fATPL's who (in many cases) didn't have an hour to their name two years ago, with training debts around £85K in most cases, (none in a couple of cases who earned and saved previously,) now on permanent contracts flying around 800 hours a year, type rating paid by airline, full benefits package, grossing a quarter of a million pounds over the next 60 months and in many cases likely to have repaid those training debts in full over that same period.

Sensible investment? Cost effective? They think so, not surprisingly. Where would they be in 5 years time if they had chosen to "economize" two years ago? Where will they be in 5 years time? They will likely have 4000 hours each, and be eyeing the command selection lists.

Choices, money and luck!

[RTN11]

What exactly were you expecting? It's a tough market, always has been, but I still know plenty of people getting jobs. You just need something more than an fATPL.

Why didn't you budget instructing or something else into your original plan? It's a great way into the industry which many airlines respect, and develops your flying and people skills to a very high standard.

As above, the fATPL was never the bar, it's just these days you won't find a funded rating. Some airlines however do still offer a bonded system, where you put some cash upfront and they pay you back.

Did you do any research before you commenced training? I had a list of likely airlines, as well as plenty of contacts, by the end of my instructing career.

[PURPLE PITOT]

There are a number of people on here who have been preaching the truth for some time. Unfortunately, starry eyed teenagers don't want to hear the truth, instead relying on the glossy brochure they got from the flying school to which they are about to hand £100k!

[Guttn]

To add it up for those who are easily blinded by stats and/or glossy brochures handed to them;
You pay more for your initial training, and you pay yet again to land a contract job (they didn`t tell you that, now did they?) - unless you are among the lucky few who actually have your TR paid by your employer (fulltime of course). Unfortunately, luck runs out, and, maybe you`ve guessed it - you pay again! And when you`ve paid a mindboggling amount of money to fly commercial aircraft, you actually get paid peanuts to sit there for a steadily increasing number of hours (EASA FTLs - look `em up!). But what about job security, you ask? What security? Just sit down, shut up, don`t fuss about anything and maybe you will get your 6 month contract renewed. If you don`t, then you have some spare time to sort out your taxes.
Is flying fun? Absolutely! The feeling of flight is awesome!
Is flying for a living fun? I find myself asking that question a bit too often...
Are waterparks fun? You bet!
Is being flushed down the drain, TC - wise, fun? :ugh:

[Libertine Winno]

Are there any airlines out there employing low houred guys, except RYR?!

I'm not necessarily interested in how type ratings are gained (paid up front or bonded over a contract) but would be curious to know in addition if low it's possible for low houred guys to find permanent positions, or if it is only going to be short term contracts through the likes of Parc, CTC etc?

(PS by 'low houred' I mean fATPL and under 500 hours TT)

[PURPLE PITOT]

You might have a shot with Jet2.

[mad_jock]

yes Beazel but unless there was two self financed pilots for everyone of them the schools wouldn't be able to continue.

And the method of training which certain airlines prefer wouldn't be available.

The airlines won't pay for that style of training so they have to rely on the marketing of the schools and people like your self to pull the mugs in.

[Bealzebub]

Good to see you have sobered up!

Well, if you ever make it this far up the totem pole you will be able to bring it up with them. Some of the "mugs" will be the people doing the interviewing.

[mad_jock]

I have no doudt they might interview me. But that would mean I would actually apply for a job instead of being phoned asking if I was available. And then finding I wasn't, then offering a bung to move.

[Jetpipe.]

Good Timing is what you need... Apparently this time of the year is a dead period! It's normal to get all pessimistic about that... we on the far end of the spectrum!! :(

[Bealzebub]

Apparently this time of the year is a dead period! Autumn / Winter is peak recruitment season in those airlines that are recruiting. They normally schedule training for late Winter and early Spring.

[Jugs08]

Yea I knew the situation and went modularly with no debts.

Then have enough for a TR with FR if needed.

For me the risk of another 50k strapped to my parents house was too much for me to bear to then earn 1200 a month and again ask for them to pay for my living expenses.

Anyone that can justify paying 2x the cost to then be in the same boat as those that spent half is simply an idiot. And they have no business sense.

I'm not saying its wrong to have attrition in an industry but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong. Not even lawyers have this much financial expense as the get govt help.

Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?

In the next 2-3 years I think we will see a decline of entrants into the system followed by more collapsing training organisations. Purely because young people will no longer be interested if things continue to spiral, I have seen the next generation in the education system and they are very different. Largely product of the last labour government but that's a whole new topic!

[PURPLE PITOT]

Agreed, there is no way the "entitled" generation will cut it in this industry!

[truckflyer]

"For me the risk of another 50k strapped to my parents"

Are you serious? I mean you only discover this now, after you just discovered that you have acquired fATPL, sorry, you have CPL / MEIR!

Why did you not do your research before you started your training?
I guess you did, but ignored it, because you did not like the numbers you saw, and knew it would have been impossible to convince your parents for even more money!

So you took a gamble, a long shot! And it did not pay off!

It's not rocket science! It's simple basic maths! You, me, all, think they are the lucky chosen ones, but guess what, the odds are heavily against you and all of us!

I will tell you another thing, you get your TR, you will think before, oh yes, after TR I will be good!!! Nope you will not, still after passing your TR test, you know nothing, your skills are almost worthless, until you get experience flying the beast!

And so the story goes on, never-ending story!


"Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?"

Again, are you serious? I mean, where you want to live? In old communist Russia? Where Big Brother tells you what to do, and not to do! I am sure you would have cried foul, if you had been told you would not be able to follow your dream, and train to be a pilot!

Nobody is going to hold your hand, you over 18, you are an adult, and you are supposed to take decisions yourself, I mean you want to be able to fly a big shiny jet, but you do not want to have responsibility for the decisions you have made for yourself?

Man up! You are young, got time on your side, go do some instructing, enjoy some basic flying for a while, don't worry about tomorrow yet! Get some experience, and sooner or later you will get a chance, and you will have experience that you will be happy for!


but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong.
Well with some of your questions, you have not actually convinced to many about ability, as you was seriously lacking in basic Air Law knowledge!

I am still in my own process, and I can promise you one thing, the step up from fATPL to the next Airline level, it will be like you have been hit in the head by Concorde, so steep is the learning curve, knowledge requirement, and maybe because my head is a little bit older and slower, but I averaged 95% on my ATPL's, had 100% in Gen Nav and Met, but compared to what the airlines require, that was NOTHING!

Real life is not multiple choice options waiting for you to at least have a 50/50 chance, it was a 15 minutes detailed explanation about the Fuel Planning, Hold and 4 performance segments, and when I say detailed, I mean word perfect from the text books, memorizing alone, would not have been good enough!

I was stunned, still am actually, only thanks to a few good friends, that gave me extremely good advice along the way, did I manage to keep up the motivation, study and continued working hard to try to get close to my goal!

Jugs, this is not to knock you down, but make you understand, if you think you have had it hard until now, wait, it will get much worse, before I hope it starts getting better!

Me and a friend went with a very experienced TRE (friend), for him to give us some sim training to brush up on IR skills, after 6 hours in the sim, my friend on the way back home told me he was going to quit flying, so hard had we been pushed by the TRE (who was a friend), that he said to me, no way I will ever be good enough, he was almost crying!

Today he is flying for an airline as a first officer!

[Jetpipe.]

I like your words TF .. specially these about the learning curve!

However, you don't have to brag about your theory exams .. We all know that if you had a very good understanding of the subject and stayed 2 nights with bristol a 100% was possible! Not that you would be incapable of a 100% score without it but rather unlikely because of some wicked questions in the database..
But I understand you did this to show the relative difference between atp-theory level and airline training level! Good posting!

[truckflyer]

I did not mean to brag about the ATPL's, but I see many are very proud of their high scores (:} myself included), until reality dawned on me, and I discovered how much I really had to know, learn, study!

As you say, anybody can get a good score after doing the QB 2 -3 -4 -5 times, (sorry I had a long christmas holiday, and there was nothing else to do, I know such bore)
And I also feel I did actually know stuff from the ATPL, not just the banging the QB, however after a friend of mine (747 Captain), took me to pieces in about 30 minutes, I understood few things, I knew very little, second formulating the answer in the right way is half the job, because many of these questions are much more than a one liner, if you do one liner answers, you end up getting bombarded with follow up questions which might make you end up in a dead end!

It was for me better to be well prepared, and start from the basic, covering all (much more than I had expected at first) - and rather they tell you to stop it, because they understand you know what you are talking about, than they start asking you loads of potentially horrible questions!

My point with the ATPL's, was that we can all come with those high scores, and say I got this that, whatever, meant unless some of the knowledge has stuck, it is just a number, that looks nice, but have no contents, and believe me, I had to really look hard at myself , same with my friend, because it always look like an impossible mountain to climb, however somehow, we manage to get over it, step by step! But for sure it is hard work!

[flyingpicket]

Jugs: Thanks for you advice. But you assume I'm an idiot…
How do you expect people to listen if you talk to them like that?

Your (sic) blaming Young people that are pursuing their career even in the face of adversity? What's wrong with you?

Have you forgotten these posts already? They weren’t that long ago, and now you are doing exactly the same thing.

Anyone that can justify paying 2x the cost to then be in the same boat as those that spent half is simply an idiot. And they have no business sense.

With that comment, you are branding a few thousand people whose personal lives and financial circumstances you know absolutely nothing about, as (senseless) idiots.

By sheer coincidence, I actually know someone who left school the exact same year you did. She took the integrated route, paid for a bus TR, and has already spent a year in the RHS of a major airline. During that period she has netted twice the cost of the TR, and now has over 1,000 hours TT, including 800+ on type. Her debt should be paid off in about 5 years time, by which time she will still only be 26, and possibly eligible for command. I would argue that that has been a worthwhile investment in her future career. After all we are not talking about buying £100k worth of Poll Peck shares here. We are talking about a £100k investment with a potential £3m+ payback over the next forty years or so.

I keep hearing about the horrors of paying for a type rating. However, as a legitimate business expense, the VAT is reclaimable immediately, and the remainder is tax-deductible. The true cost of a £30k TR is therefore about £19k. That’s a pretty reasonable investment if it leads to immediate employment and a transportable skill to another airline, if or when things go belly-up. It certainly compares well with paying £30-35k for a three year media studies degree, in the hope there might be a job in journalism or at the BBC at the end of it.

You say you are debt free, which is a combination of going modular and paying-as- you-go. The only difference between paying up front and PAYG, is the amount of debt interest. However, if you believe that to be a valid argument, then you would never take out a mortgage to buy a house, and would prefer to miss out on the benefits of owning and living in one while you are saving up.

I'm not saying its wrong to have attrition in an industry but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong.


Not sure you actually understand what ‘attrition’ means with that comment, but as for the last part of the sentence, how can you possibly know whether that is true or not? Again, you know absolutely nothing about the thousands of people you are ‘dissing’ with a remark like that. For a start only about 10% of the guys who apply to a particular well-known FTO are accepted on to the course after a stringent two day assessment. The reason for that is that this particular FTO will refund the cost of training if you pass the assessment and subsequently turn out to be a duffer. That costs them money, which they obviously try to avoid. And believe it or not, no one actually asks to see the contents of your wallet until after you have signed up for a particular course.

Secondly, some major airlines use the training history and recommendations from the FTO to short-list the best candidates for interview. Their individual selection procedure then skims off the cream from that bunch. So to say they have no ‘actual ability or dedication’ is simply unfounded, unsubstantiated and untrue.

I hope you do find employment soon, but becoming one of the band of miserable, frustrated and disillusioned individuals who spend a good proportion of their sad lives on this forum, and get their kicks from insulting people they don’t know, is not going to help that cause. You need to stay positive, and have belief in your own abilities. Whether or not you personally took the right decision to go modular, should then become clear in the fullness of time.

[truckflyer]

"For a start only about 10% of the guys who apply to a particular well-known FTO are accepted on to the course after a stringent two day assessment."

Not true, some of their testing is a joke, stringent? Have a look at Lufthansa etc., than come and talk about stringent!

"Secondly, some major airlines use the training history and recommendations from the FTO to short-list the best candidates for interview. Their individual selection procedure then skims off the cream from that bunch. So to say they have no ‘actual ability or dedication’ is simply unfounded, unsubstantiated and untrue."

Yes, you have been sold the whole sales pitch from CTC, OAA and whoever else does these programs!

I do disagree with lot in Jugs post, but unless some of you youngbies, newbies, get a realistic view of what is ahead, you will eventually hit a brick wall!

And I do not feel it is fair, that my tax money should be used to cover your as...es, when you decide to declare yourself bankrupt to get out of debts!

Fact is that the majority of modular and integrated trained pilots, unless they have the patience to go for other options, will end up giving up on their dream! But than again, if they can't bare the pain, maybe it was never their dream anyway!

New pilots getting jobs vs pilots trained, does not add up, unless you listen to totally biased FTO sales pitch, than they will tell you the world is lacking pilots! Which might be true, however they avoid to tell you, they are lacking Captains to fly A320, somewhere in ChinaChomba! Good luck with realism!

[Jugs08]

Keep up truck flyer I already knew all that before I started. Hence
Mod training. Jezzz

[Jugs08]

I'm happy with my choices and my life thanks. I'm just trying to illustrtate the point that some people can ruin the rest of their lives by taking on that kind of debt.


I'm never giving up Ive never done so before so I won't now. Winners don't quit and quitters don't win. You can however get annoyed and frustrated from time to time.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Welcome to the wonderfull world of aviation!

[flyingpicket]

Truckflyer
Not sure I share the joke, but the tests, as I’m sure you must already know, include:

Flying aptitude, hand / eye co-ordination and spatial awareness
Academic, mathematical and technical knowledge
Psychometric assessment, team working skills & leadership potential
Communication abilities, personal qualities & motivation.

I have no doubt you are correct with regard to Lufthansa. However, the assessment is certainly a lot more demanding than the pre-requisite for admission to say a law or medical degree course, which is little more than 3 As in relevant subjects. The point I was making to Jugs is that they definitely do not recruit idiots, or take any account of the size of one’s house or bank balance during the process.

Yes, you have been sold the whole sales pitch from CTC.
I know for a fact that out of the group who went to the assessment at the same time as the person referred to in my original post, she was the only one who was accepted. I also know for a fact that only a handful of the 32 people on her course were actually given an interview with the airline involved, and an even smaller number were offered a contract.

I don’t know why you think any of your taxes might be at risk from a bankruptcy. It’s no longer a viable option anyway, as unsecured loans are a thing of the past. You should be more worried about the tens of thousands of people persuing airy-fairy useles non-vocational degrees who will cost you money when their student loans are written off.

I’m sure some trainees will fail to make the grade or get a flying job, but that’s life. However, I don’t see any evidence yet that it is likely to be the majority. As in every walk of life, there will be people who made extremely bad career choices, people who made very good ones, and a whole spectrum of guys in between.

[mad_jock]

Dream on picket. Truckflyer has been alive twice as long as you.

The assement is a well established marketing gimik.

Universitys are doing the same because it ups the application rate making you feel special.

When the deptment I worked in brought in interviews and all the good stuff the average UCAA points went up by 5 points.

Also as well the are some right tulips wanting to become pilots it costs money nursing them through. You can charge more and still fill the courses if you do bin some and also you don;t have to deal with the tulips.

[fwjc]

mj is right, the assessment days are mostly gimmick.

They go through all the tests, but ultimately far more pass the computer / teamwork / discussion / (sim?) / interview than can afford to go. Ultimately the deciding factor is financial, rarely anything else. If you've failed the assessment, you really shouldn't be anywhere near an aeroplane. But passing doesn't necessarily mean you're the next sky god. In my opinion it means that you're good enough for them to want your money.

If a school is running low on potential students, all they need to do is reduce the pass mark, or score more generously on the subjective tests.

I know this is cynical, and I'm sure various posters will try to assure me that this isn't the case. I'm not anti Integrated, for those who are privileged enough to be able to do it. Fair play and good luck to them - I have a friend studying with a big school right now.

Fwiw I passed the assessment for the same big school with flying colours (!) but decided the financial risk was too great.

[truckflyer]

"they definitely do not recruit idiots"

Yes a couple of 80's computer games and maths tests 12 year olds have made sure of that!

Now add that most of them in the past ended up having to pay another £30.000 to RyR to get a job!

I am not fully convinced of their judgement when they signed up, and towards the end discovered they was not lined up for any job!

I personally saw guys at OAA running around desperate like headless chickens printing of questions from past RyR interviews and sim profiles!
I am pretty sure these "bottom less" pockets would not stop there if no RyR job, would be TR and P2F!
Who is the idiot than?

I did MCC with a guy from OAA, 4 months after he finish none in his class of 20 had a job!
Sorry to believe you are the special ones just because the school runs some pretend selection tests, unless you don't have the money they will pick next in line even if you aced the scores with all top scores!

But you got to love the naively and self love!

"they definitely do not recruit idiots" not sure about seeing how things are!

[PURPLE PITOT]

If you want an objective aptitude test, go see the RAF/FAA/AAC, or try the GAPAN tests.

[flyingpicket]

Dream on picket. Truckflyer has been alive twice as long as you.And my next door neighbour has been alive twice as long as Trucker, but I'm sure you would take any careers advice she offered you with a pinch of salt.

As for his last post, 'cynical' doesn't do it justice...

... But OK, I'll bow to his superior wisdom. Let's just agree that FTO cadets are stupid, tax-dodging, mis-guided, naive, narcissistic, unemployed, gullible, debt-ridden idiots, and leave it at that.

[Jugs08]

Yep GAPAN raf test is immense it lasted from 8 till about 3. I got 132 And the pass for pilot is 120i think. No one else passed that day.

I went to ctc after it and agree that the ctc test was so easy compared to 6hrs of gruling tests with only 5 mins between sections.

I have also heard from those doing the selection at a former big school, back in 2009 that they took on people they shouldn't have. Their words were we took a few more risks than before. So the bar moves relative to the number of people applying fact.

The tests do serve a basic selection aid but mainly help the candidate buy into the process by makin them feel they have something special, and creating an air of exclusivity.

[mad_jock]

Sad thing is that old next door neighbour of yours has been through world wars and the most of the major technological advances in history.

The value of there life experence you won't understand until you get to mine and truckers age.

My next door neighbour at your age used to fly Lancaster Bombers and spitfires in the war. Didn't have a clue at the time what she had in her log book. I would love now to sit down with her and talk about flying. Pity I never thought about doing that 20 years ago when she was still alive.

And yes you are an immature idiot just like we were when we were your age. Nothing that time and experence doesn't cure though.

[truckflyer]

I admit, in the past, I have said stupid things on these forums, some maybe misguided, lack of experience, but the more you get into this business, the more you see you want to learn and know, and the more you understand how little you know!

In my brief time inside aviation, I have seen things that should make any normal person, stop up, turn around, and run like hell to get away!

Still, despite all these warnings, you do see people walking towards it, being fully aware of all the dangers, than when they get spat out on the other side they start crying of how unfair the world is!

To believe a private school, (like CTC, OAA), are going to kick you out, based on a few so called aptitude tests, is at best being naive!
You are coming with something that is far more valuable to them, than you standing a decent chance of getting a job after you finish training!

Let's be honest, having seen various kind of people pass both CPL and IR, the benchmark is honestly not that high!
It does not need to be that high, it's a licence to start learning!

However getting a real job, is a different ball game, there the bench mark is much higher than your CPL/IR! That was what blew me apart at first, understanding the difference, from being a qualified CPL/IR pilot and to step up to the next level!

Personally I never had much belief in any kind of aptitude tests, maybe I am wrong on this, but I can honestly not see how non flight related test shall show if I can operate as a flight crew, specially considering the quality of these games they give you, not impressed!

Than again, if you believe you are the Special One, just because CTC or OAA selected you as the "Lucky One" to pay them £100.000 for the training, where you don't even have a valid SEP on your licence so you can go flying for fun, vow - that sounds extremely fun!

One thing I really hope, regardless of what happens, is that I manage to have time and money to keep my SEP valid, so I can enjoy the fun of flying!
For me, many of the CTC/OAA robots, do not seem to have enjoyed the fun of aviation, many actually don't seem to care about aviation at all!

Than again, I could be wrong! It's not just a job for me!

[magicmick]

Lots of good information and opinion from people who are old enough and experienced enough to know their stuff and who don’ ‘sugar coat’ their opinions with fancy language.

Interesting to note that life experience does matter in some places, unfortunately life experience is incredibly subjective and hard to define, what MJ calls life experience will be different from what I call life experience.

I’m ex military avionics engineer with multiple operational tours of Bosnia and Iraq, I squeezed out a BEng degree over 5 years day release while working full time and becoming a father (I assume that he’s mine) in the middle of the degree. Is that life experience? I think so but my opinion doesn’t matter, the opinion that matters belongs to the people that are recruiting and interviewing. For example I might be fortunate enough to get to an interview and be interviewed by someone who has served in the military (regular or reserves) who appreciates the life experience and transferable skills that ex mil staff bring. Equally I might be interviewed by someone who has no experience of ex mil and doesn’t give a fat rats arse about military service or I might be interviewed by someone whose missus ran off with a serviceman and is now screwing them for maintenance and who thinks all ex mil are rogues who cannot be trusted.

As a footnote, I am working as a contract engineer within the MoD at the moment and I get to look at the various military resettlement magazines that offer help and advice to those leaving the forces. I noticed in the July edition of one of the magazines (Pathfinder I think) a full page advert for a well known regional TP outfit offering mentored/ tagged part financed zero to hero course. Applications are limited to those that have recently left the forces or are in the process of leaving or those that have spent time in one of the cadet forces. While it’s too late for me and I am acutely aware that no-one owes any of us a living, I do find it gratifying that there are operators offering priority to those that have served and younger people that have got off their backsides and joined the cadets.

[flyingpicket]

Sad thing is that old next door neighbour of yours has been through world wars and the most of the major technological advances in history.
That’s a very good point Mad Jock. A lot of old folk do tend to live in the past and find technological advances baffling. Some mature gracefully and mellow in their old age, encouraging, advising, nurturing and imparting their wisdom to the younger generation. They either embrace modern technology or simply ignore it. Others, however, become cantankerous and bitter with their advancing years. They seem to perceive the younger generation as a threat to their very existence, and blame them for all the trials and tribulations of their lives. They refuse to accept that the world has moved on and nothing will ever be what it was in the good old days.

And yes you are an immature idiot just like we were when we were your age. Nothing that time and experience doesn't cure though. Idiocy used to be a recognised medical condition, and even featured as a category on the late 18th and early 19th century censuses, along with lunacy, imbecility, and feeble-mindedness. Unfortunately, unlike immaturity, it is a mental deficiency which is not cured by age. These days, of course, the term serves no other purpose than to cause offence.

[FANS]

I am genuinely interested in what those who started training in the last few years expected at the end of it?

They would have known that they needed to pay for a TR, and how much would they have been willing to pay?