What does the EAT machine look like ?

[Sean Dell]

Apparently there is an EAT machine. Now lately, having been on the receiving end of several 'slippages' of EAT into LHR, I am beginning to wonder if this machine looks a bit like a ZX81 ?

Can anyone cast any light on this machine and how it works?

Thanks

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<if this machine looks a bit like a ZX81>>

Try Abacus....

[Cuddles]

Is it based on the dartboard they use at Scottish?

[Dan Dare]

It works a little like this, then ATCOs make the sequence happen with the odd improvement.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50673000/jpg/_50673600_50673598.jpg

[BOBBLEHAT]

It's basically just a keyboard/screen with a computer derived landing order that a supervisor has to constantly massage to get a better landing order. £3m well spent.

[jackieofalltrades]

Now, now HD, surely you must know that an abacus actually works doing the job it was designed to...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry Mr Abacus!

[tczulu]

Sean Dell
As you can probably gather from the replies so far the operational workforce is generally underwhelmed by the performance of AMAN,for that is what the crock of s:mad: is called. The day it was introduced some years ago was an absolute shambles.A/c diverting because of completely erroneous EAT's. Was not fit for purpose then but was not withdrawn as it should've been. Result-despite various tweaks is still capable of unrealistic delay info,Easterlies especially so and is viewed with a healthy dose of suspicion/derision.The previous EAT machine was designed by a much loved and missed operational Atco, Paul Spencer(Spats) basically on the back of one of his fag packets and was accurate and trusted! Sorry,rant over,I'm off down the pub.

[Minesthechevy]

tczulu you have a PM

[tczulu]

MtC,
dodgy connection,nut sure if reply went.

[Warped Factor]

For the controller it is the small screen shown here. This is a Heathrow display, the four subdivisions are the four holds. It lists for traffic in or approaching each hold sequence number, callsign, wake category, delay remaining, EAT. Different colours are used to highlight different things at different times.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7137/7562266860_5cba5ac053_c.jpg

For the Group Supervisor Airports who has to keep a beady eye on it and help it along it's the grey screen mid left and by the right of the black and red jacket hung over a chair.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8432/7562289800_acf995ef90_c.jpg

Developed by BARCO, it's considerably better than it was but still room for improvement. Please note the controller you are speaking to has no control over the EAT generating process, they can only pass on what the system is telling them.

Pictures courtesy of NATS Press Office Flickr feed.

[Sean Dell]

Guys - thanks to (most of :-)) you all for the info and the piccies.

I am somewhat concerned that this 'abacus' type machine is regarded with such suspicion, particularly as these EATs form a fundamental part of our do we/don't we dispense with our alternate (ie. commit). You are aware of this though through many of us meeting you on the TRUCE days etc?

Cheers

SD

[elandel]

Sean,

We are accutely aware of the implications of getting EATs wrong - thats why the company invested in AMAN. I know the system has its faults - I know because I have to work with it! However, I do think there is a bit of rose tinted vision with the old system! There are many reasons why your EAT may slip and not all of them are AMANs fault - a simple go-around can add a couple of minutes - it takes up two 'slots' one because it didn't land and the other as it has to be re-sequenced - a priority approach will also push times back. The machine is set up to caculate times based on a spacing regime - if that is not adhered to for whatever reason -weather avoidance for example- the times soon become innacurate.
I must re-iterate - I am not an apologist for the system - we all know it struggles with easterlies- but they are tweaking the system to improve things.
You mentioned TRUCE - if you or your colleagues are on one - ask to see the system in action!

[DaveReidUK]

we all know it struggles with easterlies

Pardon my ignorance, but why would that be ?

[elandel]

Err.....
I'm not an expert and this is only my take on it....
On westerlies the ranges from touchdown are all fairly similar from all the stacks so it works on a pretty much first in first out principle. On easterlies the distance from BIG and LAM can be over twice that from BNN and OCK. This causes confusion with the system as a sraight off from LAM say gives you 70 miles from touchdown. If the BNN a/c is following it it will have to go once round the hold to 'eat' up the miles - so the LAM a/c gets no delay while the BNN gets 5 minutes. THis would appear to be unfair and I think it has been tinkered with over the years but still problems exist.
As I said - i'm no expert but i'm sure there are some out there........

[Over+Out]

I have to use the system and still have my doubts about it.
If it is being manipulated all the time, it is better, but we have no idea when it is or is not being very closely monitored/manipulated.
As previously said, on Easterlies it is worst.
I still only use it as a rough guide unless we are in actual EAT's.
Every time I have seen it in operation for Gatwick, it is highly inaccurate.

[anotherthing]

Every time I have seen it in operation for Gatwick, it is highly inaccurate.You will probably find that the reason for this is because the GS(A) does not keep the KK AMAN up-to-date.

The main reason it is inaccurate is because of the frequent changing of spacing at Gatwick (needed because of it's status as the busiest single runway airfield)... no one shouts to the GS(A) that it has changed, so AMAN does not get updated.

EGLL AMAN takes most of the attention because of the number of aircraft, however that's not a great excuse... it takes only a minute to walk down to KK and see what spacing they are using, then sticking it in the machine.

[Glamdring]

Is it based on the dartboard they use at Scottish?

:D

It's funny because it's true!

[30W]

AMAN doesn't also seem to capture all the data completely enough with which to provide no slippage/adjustment to the EAT's.

I've observed a few times whilst plugged into S12/S13 that the odd Easterly inbound doesn't appear on the EAT display even when it's currenly being worked inbound towards LOGAN. Suddenly AMAN captures it, and it gets slotted into the EAT display, but at what cost? Clearly other EAT's must be adjusted by the system to allow the new 'capture' to be planned into the arrival sequence so slippage occurs to some other previously calculated EAT's.

Haven't seen it, but understand that Paris deps also get captured late into AMAN and so previously calculated/issued EAT's can slip once the system realises that there are Paris Arr's to be fitted into the master plan :ugh:

The plan is to extend AMAN to 500nm, and so issue information to NAT arrivals as they enter Shannon, allowing speed to be reduced as necessary at the NAT boundary to make the EAT at OCK/BNN. Given the fact that AMAN doesn't work 'fully' currently, it concerns me that crews will be asked to make speed control decisions that far out based upon it (it's the way forward though apparently!).

30W (just a Pilot)