Thomas Cook Fleet Reduction

[aileron]

Award self 6million shares, sack 400 people. Genius.

Thomas Cook 'To Cut Hundreds More Jobs'


Holiday firm Thomas Cook has confirmed it is wielding the axe again as it continues to turn its business around.

The company is planning to cut 430 jobs which it says will "enhance the financial performance of our UK airline, improving profitability and operational efficiency".

The people affected will include pilots and cabin crew whose futures were already threatened by a partnership deal with easyJet.

Thomas Cook started to shed posts and planes from its fleet last year as it battled to recover from a near-financial collapse that saw it eventually take a new £200m loan and extend its financial arrangements amid the slowdown in consumer spending.

Its statement said: "Through our constant review of customer requirements, including the additional flexibility of third party flying arrangements, such as the partnership recently announced with easyJet, we continue to offer our customers greater flexibility and choice, in keeping with the needs of today’s leisure traveller.

"To this end we are proposing to reduce the UK fleet from 35 to 31 aircraft, returning 4 planes to the lessors at the end of their lease term with the resultant cost saving. Our in-house airline will continue to serve all of our key routes and in the last year alone transported over 6.8 million passengers globally to their chosen destination.

"Regrettably these proposals, if implemented, will have an inevitable impact on our people and we have today entered a period of consultation with our employees, with the expectation that approximately 430 roles will be impacted.

Thomas Cook said it would work with the staff affected to support them.

[hec7or]

While the workers are being made more efficient.....


Thomas Cook’s new chief executive Harriet Green was reportedly handed 6.2 million shares, which are now worth around more than £1 million.



According to reports, finance director Michael Healy, who was also appointed over the summer after the resignation of Paul Hollingworth, has been given a total of some 2.5 million shares, since joining the group in July. His shares are currently worth £437,500.
Thomas Cook is understood to have stresses that the shares would not vest for three years, and would be subject to “stretching” performance targets, the Daily Telegraph said.
The operator said it had spoken with major shareholders and governance bodies before announcing the plan, which is designed to act a “golden hello”.
Just under half of the shares will be awarded subject to share price targets, while the remainder will depend on financial performance goals being met by the new management team.
These targets will be determined by the turnaround plan which Green will be setting out in spring.
A Thomas Cook spokesman told the Telegraph: “The board considers is important the new management team is incentivised in the right way and from the start.”

source TTG 9th Oct

[Sciolistes]

“The board considers is important the new management team is incentivised in the right way and from the start.”
How about the old fashioned, 'if you don't do your job properly, you're sacked' as an incentive.

[Young Paul]

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/30000/0000/800/30832/30832.strip.gif

[A4]

Based on an A320, four aircraft removed for a six month summer season is circa 790,000 seats out of the program. The deal with eJ of 80,000 seats represents about 10% of that capacity. How much is going out to other carriers or are TCX really cutting back capacity/packages by 700,000 seats?

Best of luck to those affected by this. (Been there..)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

4 A320 @ 6-7 crews per aircraft say aproxish 160 Pilots and CC.
TC must still be sheding back room staff...
Guess it was semi expected lets hope in the medium term it comes out stronger and better for it

[maxred]

golden hello

Well that's a new one. :confused:

We now need to figure out if the golden hellos, are bigger than the golden trough, which the piggies will eat at, and then comes the inevitable golden handshake- re bye bye, having of course ruined the company once and for all.

Good old corporate Britain, still alive and well.

[Big Tudor]

Based on an A320, four aircraft removed for a six month summer season is circa 790,000 seats out of the program.

Sorry to be pedantic,but your sums aren't quite right A4.

Each short haul aircraft will average 2.5 rotations per day, 180 seats per aircraft = 1800 seats per day (packages are sold as round trip so you can't count seats outbound & inbound separately). For a 182 day summer season that's 327,600 fewer round trip seats.

Statistics aside, this is another sad day for people in aviation. The guys and girls in TCX have been through this too many times now. Moral must be at an all time low. :sad:

[763 jock]

Worse than that. It's 4 75's that are going plus an A320 for the scrap man. The Condor 767 is coming back from CFG. In all, almost 800 seats lost.

This is what happens when the board go on a spending spree....

[A4]

packages are sold as round trip so you can't count seats outbound & inbound separately

Correct! Sorry about that :O ...... But 4x757 plus 1xA320 = 1875 seats/day (inc returning 767) which is over 340,000 per season :\

[Mr.Bloggs]

The seats on Thomas Cook are uncomfortable, so no great loss. Mind you, the seats on Thomson's are no better, and as for easyJet and Ryanair.....you might as well sit on a Wythenshawe park bench..

[Flightmech]

Surely the 757s have been planned to go for a while. One is currently in the hangar at MAN being transferred to FedEx and should ferry to VCV next week and the other 3 by March.

[ETOPS240]

Out of curiosity;

Of the 4 leased 757s being returned and one scrapped 320, at, lets say 7 crews each - are we talking 35 pilots at risk/voluntary redundancies in the pipe?

If so, what's the date of joining of the bottom 35? I'm not in the know, but I presume there hasn't been much hiring in recent years; are 3+ year employees facing the chop?

My understanding is that flight deck culls have been thus far avoided due to redundancy package takers in recent years... Again, no insider knowledge, just grape-vine stuff.

Just seems like a poor state of affairs IF the bottom few dozen still happen to have a few years service.

[A4]

I thought LIFO (Last In First Out) wasn't allowed any more? Isn't it a meritocracy now? Hopefully volunteers and part time options will reduce the trauma....

[ETOPS240]

Indeed, lets hope.

How would meritocracy work, rather than seniority, when (presumably) RT/PCs are being passed to company standard?

[Peter G-W]

ETOPS, There are surely two pilots in each crew so they must be looking at 14x5= 70 potential redundancies and 35 demotions.

[TURIN]

How would meritocracy work, rather than seniority, when (presumably) RT/PCs are being passed to company standard?

A points based system that can include sickness/absence, LIFO, qualifications (and even potential qualifications) and almost anything else the employer sees fit to use.

Unless you have a very strong TU or a very good relationship with the employer you have no say and if your face doesn't fit they can and will find a way to get rid of you.
Sorry but that is how it is these day. Seen it happen this year.

Good luck to all involved.

[JB007]

Points Matrix made me redundant out of Thomson in 2010, basically LIFO!!!!

Good luck to all

[vctenderness]

I use TCX a lot out of Gatwick to Bodrum and like the 757's hope that they are not the ones going. Great shame for those staff,losing their jobs in these times of austerity.

[FANS]

Are there further aircraft that are approaching the end of their lease?

[Artic Monkey]

What about the TCX pilots who are with flybe waiting for seats with TCX at the moment? I was on the understanding they were being paid for by TCX, are they safe?

[zoarath]

Many years ago airlines, like Dan Air, provided the transport for the package holiday companies. Then came the in-house airlines offering uniform branding. These airlines expanded rapidly with usually excellent terms and conditions on par with anything except the legacy carriers. FTL agreements assured a good life for the pilots. (One A330 captain boasting of less than 300 hours and eleven one week stops in the Caribbean in a year during the late 1990's)

These in house airlines have mostly merged into what is left today due to the slow retraction of the package holiday market. However the pilots, especially those near the top of the seniority tree, continue to receive benefits applicable to the good old days. It is unsustainable and will eventually lead to the return of the independent charter airline, or purchase of low fare seats, and demise of the in-house airline.

This process could be slowed but the eventual outcome is indisputable. Let us hope that the very high professional pilot standards that were achieved and maintained by these in-house airlines will also be in evidence with whichever outfit flies us in future.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

I genuinely feel very saddened for the TC guys/gals. Inevitably, there will be much discussion about what is the way ahead in the current climate, and there will be winners and losers. The fundamental problem is that if your company is not making money then you have entered the high risk zone. TC have come within an inch of financial ruin, and even now their future is far from certain. Any CEO and Board, regardless of what performance bonus structure they are on, have to act quickly and decisively to stem losses. That will tragically mean redundancies and renegotiation of Ts & Cs - no one wants it but that is what will happen.

[macdo]

TC the TOUR OPERATOR has come to within an inch of being ruined, TC the AIRLINE has not contributed to this state of affairs. Having been leaned and with a substantial increase in the on-board sales figures TC THE AIRLINE made a substantial profit 2 years ago and a modest loss last year. We have been repeatedly told by our management that our seat mile costs are competitive, which turns to the opposite message when the Mr Hyde head is talking, so who to believe on that issue?
TC pilots are NOT overpaid, they are PROPERLY paid. You can probably make more money in Ryanair if you are on the right contract. Yes an airline can make a few more bob by raping the wannabees, but thats going to stop eventually as the European market matures.
Feel free to allow the future prospects for pilots to degenerate if you will, but don't blame the pilots for the failings of management.

[beardy]

These in house airlines have mostly merged into what is left today due to the slow retraction of the package holiday market. However the pilots, especially those near the top of the seniority tree, continue to receive benefits applicable to the good old days. It is unsustainable and will eventually lead to the return of the independent charter airline, or purchase of low fare seats, and demise of the in-house airline.

Well Zoareth has shown an unusually oblique understanding of the charter holiday industry. The OPERATORS merged, that was the driving force that meant that their associated airlines merged. The OPERATORS failed to sell holidays at sufficient profit, hence the whole of the OPERATOR's company is in trouble, not just the airline. Ts & Cs of pilots as a cause of decline are a red herring (unless of course you are are managing a declining company, in which case they are a smokescreen.)

[courtney]

Ah, the usual nonsence that pilots T's and C's are not to blame. The tour operators are concerned with overheads and the pilots are a significant cost. If the job can be out sourced more cheaply then it will be. A pilots worth is only what the market will stand and this will determine thier worth or 'proper' pay. As for airline profitability, the tour operator is selling the product and thus generating income not the airline, unless it sub contacts. The only way to reckon the airlines 'profitability' is to compare with what alternatives are available. Airlines no longer exist for the benefit of the pilots, even BA have to work for a living these days.

[keitaidenwa]

It seems several European package charter airlines have gone bust this year, and the rest are cutting capacity. I take it has less to do how the airlines are run, but that package holidays are not just selling right now.

[top9un]

macdo

Not trying to disagree with you:

TC the TOUR OPERATOR has come to within an inch of being ruined, TC the AIRLINE has not contributed to this state of affairs. Having been leaned and with a substantial increase in the on-board sales figures TC THE AIRLINE made a substantial profit 2 years ago and a modest loss last year. We have been repeatedly told by our management that our seat mile costs are competitive, which turns to the opposite message when the Mr Hyde head is talking, so who to believe on that issue?

Having worked in charter, I'm not sure how the ponytails in head office account for seat mile costs since they sell holiday packages not flights, so the price of the actual flight is not necessarily clear in terms of the total cost of the package. I'm sure they have some sort of formula but the costs can be apportioned how they like. I think the airline is just the pipeline to get the tourists out to the resorts where the real money is being made from driving down the room rates and maximising anciliaries eg; excursions and entertainment etc.

So how the suits can determine whether the airline is actually making a loss or a profit is mainly in the hands of the accountants and not necessarily down to passenger seat mile costs, onboard sales or baggage charges, I'm not really that clear on the details, but with the low costs now offering hotel rooms, car hire, insurance and credit cards etc, the detail seems to be getting very blurred.

Hopefully the industry has now reached a position in the cycle where there is enough demand over the next few years for IT and scheduled to live with each other without any more "consolidation".

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Courtney,

That is the biggest load of rubbish i've ever read. Do you know anything about TCX ? Of course TUI get paid peanuts compared to TCX pilots don't they ? Thomas Cook's problems are nothing to do with the pilots but mismanagement over a number of years. When the world was embracing the internet, Manny bought Coop high street shops. When TUI looked to the future ordering 787s, TCX looked to renew 757 leases. The TCX BALPA council offered the management the opportunity to adopt the same PSA as TUI if that was an issue and guess what ? The DFO refused. Go and do some homework before posting such garbage. :mad:

Hey, but when you can't spell words like 'nonsense,' 'contracts' or 'their' properly, why would anyone doubt your intelligence and business acumen ? :ok:

[macdo]

Courtney,
I feel so under-utilised and overpaid having logged 800+ hrs in the last 12 months, much if done in the middle of the night. Even the permanent long haul guys are on back to back bullets bumping off maximum hours every month. The days of a week on the beach in Barbados are, very sadly, almost totally gone.
So please, know something about us before you comment.

[deepknight]

So, Courtney, "A pilot's worth is only what the market will stand". I suppose that rather depends on whether you're an accountant sitting in a comfortable office or a passenger sitting in an aircraft - especially one with a problem or even just making an approach in the middle of the night into somewhere mountainous like Antalya surrounded by intense thunderstorms.

[beamer]

I have just flown back from Anatalya ( just how many runways and approach charts do they need ? ! ) and the place was indeed surrounded by thunderstorms and very unpleasant. So I guess we did our job and earned our wages on that one.

Fact is that the charter airlines in the UK have legacy costs which are in all honesty unsustainable - great for the long term pilots who are taking their wages and pension at the same time not to mention their training pay; over sixty, no problem, 'its my right to carry on' etc.......

The IT world is rapidly changing due to the lo-co factor, exorbitant flight taxes for passengers and so on and so forth. We all seem to be flying more hours than ever before whilst terms and conditions are under continual attack from those inbedded in the bonus culture of short-term profit.

Sadly I see no reason why all the traditional airlines within the UK holiday and leisure sector will not further reduce capacity:(

[macdo]

Well actually there is a couple of valid reasons for keeping an in-house airline going.
Firstly, it allows the Tour Operator to control quality. When you analyse Customer Feedback questionnaires, the response for 3rd party operators falls off a cliff, just look at the recent incident at BHX, nothing like going off the runway for a good bit of repeat business.

Secondly, and more critically, you have leverage over the third party airlines with regard to contract cost.

Thirdly, if Thomson and TCX disappear who is going to do the flying? It would be about 4.5 million seats to replace from both fleets, even Easy ain't that big. And even if they were, could you imagine TUI or TCG being happy to be so beholden to one airline?

Nahh, the fat lady hasn't sung for us yet, but shes hovering about in the wings, for sure.:E

[dashhead]

Not forgetting that the vast bulk of these seats are in the summer season. Who's going to provide these for 6 months per year and then leave their aircraft sitting around all winter doing nothing?

The infamous summer/winter imbalance is the bain of the Charter Airline or more accurately the bain of the Tour Operator. Easy and others could at best provide some marginal lift in the summer, but the lift just isn't out there to replace TOMs 61 aircraft and TCs 31.

[spanner the cat]

Surely the loss of these jobs isn't so much to do with pilot terms and conditions as poor commercial decisions made by the holiday group; in which case why do we always start beating each other up about relative efficiency and costs?

Also if the holiday group falls over (taking the airline with it) - no extra lift will be immediately required from other airlines without a new tour operator stepping (or growing) into the gap. There'll certainly be a whole load of airplanes sitting around waiting to be leased and crew sitting around ready to accept any new (part-year) contract.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Yup you're right Spanner. The pilots are nothing to do with the plight of Thomas Cook. Bad management is. And as usual the pilots, cabin crew and engineers are having their t & cs attacked as a consequence of incompetence.

I see Iceland Express have gone down the tube courtesy no doubt of White collar fraud. Anyone wanna blame their pilots too ?

[fantom]

Plus also as well,

The new EU rules about compensation for pax delay means - let's say a BGI or CUN - a couple of hundred £££s x 350ish = £70,000 plus the hotac and, presumably the same the other direction.

Exactly what the industry does not need right now.

Buggah.

[parabellum]

Seldom I agree with you LAJ but this time I do 100%. Courtney's problem possibly extends from the day he was told by his instructor he would never make a safe pilot, his kind of bile and bitterness usually has a root cause based on jealousy.

[slowjet]

Aaaaah, Courtney has probably cowered back into his box.As professional pilots , most of us know only too well, Courtney, that airlines have NEVER existed for the benefits of pilots. We do this for Hire & Reward & , mostly, are loyal to our Regulatory Authorities. We, occasionally, ride the surf of success that comes with visionary management & tumble with the really bad guys.

Stretching the memory cells but aviation is littered with the commercial failures of managers that led, directly, to abject misery suffered by all employees. Pilots often wound up on welfare or having to work, in dreadful places, on their own, in order to keep food on the table. Was it pilots who caused the demise of Eagle,Courtline, BUA, Caledonian, Air Europe ?

In fact, the latter, started as "in house" for owners, Intasun. Clever start-up philosophy was that it would not service 100% "in house" but just 50% so that, in the event of the owner running into commercial problems, it would not, necessarily drag down the airline. Well, the airline lasted 12 years & went bust for other reasons. Court Line was dragged down by Clarkson the SHIPPING Company (I think; getting a bit old now ).

Anyway, dear Courtney, talk to real pilots who have suffered under appalling mismanagement & you may wish to review your thoughts about the profession.

Heartfelt thoughts for the TC pilots and all other staff who face serious problems this winter.

[fmgc]

Courtney, if it was the Pilots' Ts & Cs that caused the demise of the airline then the airline was going to fail anyway!

just look at the recent incident at BHX, nothing like going off the runway for a good bit of repeat business.

Slightly different as they were not being chartered for IT use but for subbing on a scheduled route, but I take your point.

[zoarath]

MYT had over 35 aircraft 10 years ago, and whatever TCX were then called I guess they were not far behind. Now together they will have less than 30 next year. They are still mostly running the same old aircraft so the reduction is not due to larger types.

If the holiday company started a new charter airline today they could cut costs by at least 35%. FTL, salary linked to productivity, and new and serviceable aircraft that departed on time would all contribute.

No union to look after the 'good old boys' at the expense of the rest and no manager 50k plus bonuses would also help. Managing to trigger the bonus never helped airlines linked to holiday companies.

Nobody is blaming anybody, it is just the way it is now and unless significant moves are made in the right direction it will not be viable to continue with in house airlines.

As for quality of the product, please do use your search engine! Easy and Ryan totally trounce TCX in age of fleet, quality of product, on time performance and value. Customers of TC it seems do not look forward to flights with TCX.

[beardy]

No union to look after the 'good old boys' at the expense of the rest and no manager 50k plus bonuses would also help. Managing to trigger the bonus never helped airlines linked to holiday companies.

Oh do get your prejudices sorted, that's not the way it is. Which particular piece of history do you come from? There are no 'good old boys' on different Ts & Cs in Thomas Cook and no manager's bonuses of that size.
All of which questions the validity of the rest of your post. As to the title of your latest work of fiction, what colour is the sky where you are?

[spanner the cat]

Zoarath

Nail, head, miss! In-house airlines provide a majority percentage of a tour group's lift, getting their customers to their holidays. Changing TCX for a newer model doesn't alter the fact that due to rubbish commercial decisions by the tour operator, less lift is now required - hence a smaller airline. The locos probably wouldn't end up wanting too much of their summer capacity taken up with other people's passengers because the work is so seasonal and makes the retention of the aircraft and crews over the winter a major headache.

For tour companies that wish to keep control of their product from booking until the customer walks out of the arrival terminal at their home airport there is no better way to go than your own airline. You only need to look at the furore surrounding the recent "Monarch" incident and subsequent bad press to see that flagging out if not done carefully can lead to worse publicity as it is seen as endangering people to save cost whether such criticism is justified or not.

You'd be better drawing parallels between MYT and the current mess at TCX by considering how the banks did the same recapitalisation with MYT as they are now and look how that ended. Where is the large tour operator to buy the remnants of TCX? TUI probably wouldn't touch it with a barge pole - not enough margin for them.

[deepknight]

Zoarath, have you the slightest notion of what c**p you're talking? The TCX CC have already invested a great deal of blood sweat and tears in saving the jobs of several pilots in the previous round of nastiness. Now they're having to do it again. At no time in either process has anyone at TCX accused them of looking after the "good old boys".

[fmgc]

"looking after the "good old boys"" sounds like a euphemism for seniority which is the accepted industry practice.

Seniority is the way the industry works, rightly or wrongly, if you don't like it then you shouldn't have got into the industry.

[Bernoulli]

I'm in the middle of the TCX seniority list and was affected by downsizing a year ago and will be again this time.

Not once have I ever thought that our BALPA reps were looking after themselves or any other "Good Old Boys" ahead of the rest of the membership (or the non-members, who should be grateful for the efforts and financial contributions of their peers).

I am thankful that I'm in a Company where we Pilots have collective representation; something to provide a counterweight to the management.

[hec7or]

the best post I've ever read on pprune

well said Sir

[fantom]

Those not in BALPA might consider what they owe to the likes of xxx (you know who ...) for your good fortune.

[fantum farter]

Fantom,

Love the name, by the way,......lot of whiners at TCX who do not realise how much BALPA have done for them.
When challenged invariably come up with a pathetic excuse as to why they are not a member.
Never had a solid argument that stands up with reasoned discussion.
I have often said on my night DLM,s ... If you are not happy then please make a personel protest and give back all your BALPA negotiated pay rises over the last few years to charity

They go quiet.

Big Battles ahead at TCX.

[chocolateracer]

I have often said on my night DLM,s ... If you are not happy then please make a personel protest and give back all your BALPA negotiated pay rises over the last few years to charity.

They go quiet.



Could be classed a union bully boy tactics at worst. At the very least highlights what I hate about certain BALPA believers! It's a personal choice leave it at that. That's a personal choice to join, leave and also create personal opinions about how BALPA behave, leave it to them. Try that tactic with me and you'll be very quiet quite quickly.

[charlies angel]

Chocalateracer
Unintentional irony at its finest!
When one is trying to object to "Union Bully boy tactics" shouldnt your reply have been a little more concillatory than "Try that tactic with me.....( and I'll smash your face in!)"
Playground tactics will not win the fight here.

[Leg]

Could be classed a union bully boy tactics at worst

Try that tactic with me and you'll be very quiet quite quickly.

Pot calling kettle black.... :=


And anyway, how can pointing out facts re Balpa membership be seen as bullying, grow up for goodness sake boy! :ugh:

[Narrow Runway]

You need look no further than today's results from Ryanair in order to see exactly where TCG and TCX's woes stem from.

[chocolateracer]

Wow!!! Wrong end of the stick boys!!! I like how you immediately assume that! No....go quiet because I won't engage in a conversation with a BALPA preacher. I'm a member, and proud to be so. I just choose to leave it at that. The reason is simple. It's because if you outwardly show any negative signs towards BALPA and you're unlucky to be flying with a BALPA faithful the conversation only goes one way. I don't like that as I find it unnesscary. So I choose to remain silient, hence my comment. Relax boys!

[Peter G-W]

How many BALPA-negotiated pay rises have Thomas Cook pilots had over the last 4 years?

[Sussex Kestrel]

Peter,
We've had more Balpa negotiated pay rises than other union or non-union negotiated rises over the last 4 years. No?

Still got the fair weather non-members circulating in TCX. A number of guys have re-joined recently in fear of remaining 'in the dark' with stuff. That's the thing that grinds with me about most moaning non-members: they complain they don't get informed and updated with discussions and the soon to be negotiations. Simple- sign up. The Balpa website is great. :D

[Narrow Runway]

I think you will find that eJ is a BALPA airline.

[FANS]

TCX's airline business is now in material decline.

If the deal with EZY works well, why wouldn't they seek growth from type of operation that rather than the massive hastle of running an airline operation (on top of everything else within TCX).

The Sale & Leaseback of the Boeings suggests however that the airline business will remain for the medium term, but TCX came close to failure and therefore change is required by the city. It would be very easy for management to say that the move away from hard assets (shops/airline etc.) is the sure way to gold.

If nothing else, it buys them a few years.

[Vref+10.....to 44]

How many company council balpa members got demoted?.

Think joining date seniority list....think "new" merger seniority list.....it helped some...didnt it?

Voted with my feet.

[763 jock]

There are currently 22 Reserve Captains on the seniority list. I believe that they are all in their base of choice and the Reserve Captain pay scale was negotiated by BALPA.

BALPA will never be able to please all of the people all of the time. Most will be pro, understandably, some will be anti. It's called democracy.

[Vref+10.....to 44]

Any CC on the reserve captains list you are so thankful for?

Check the DOJ.

Thats called corruption.

[763 jock]

Where exactly do I state that I am thankful? I have no idea who is on the CC as I am no longer a member. If there is an error with the seniority list, it should be raised with the DFO.

[fantom]

I suggest those in TCX retire to our private forum and not hang out washing in R+News.

[slowjet]

Fantom, by hanging out in Pprune rather than your "Private" room, others can make reasoned judgements. You may wish to hang out behind your Balpa Box key too. No wish to pull of thread but look, I have been very anti Union since I entered the employment scene in 1965. Unions were FULL of the bully boys who would otherwise have no power whatsoever. They nearly bought the whole damn country to it's knees. I had to laugh, sitting on the loo at LGW reading the graffiti written on the back of the toilet door. One contributor exclaimed "Workers, UNITE to smash big business". A reply was pencilled in.."And then who would YOU work for" !

Therein lies the roots. Into professional flying, I resisted nasty bully boy tactics to join BALPA. The usual Flt Deck chats with unbalanced views failed to pursuade. Even then, whole mobs were insensed that I was enjoying terms & Conditions negotiated by BALPA. I was happy to negotiate my own TCs with the Management but it became clear that I would most likely enjoy greatly enhanced status and was pursuaded by my Fleet Captain to drop the issue.

Winning the "James Thane" case was the fave "pursuasive" case argument offered by one, so called 'Training Captain' who , failing to succeed, retorted that he & other BALPA Captains would cease to offer me any handling " in order to protect" me !

I left the damned BALPA company & joined a Company who's Management view was very anti-union. I enjoyed fabbo flying days, better terms & conditions & moved again, only for better Command Opportunity. My pursuasion to my new Company Management was that a really good company would never need a Union. They agreed.BAPLA never got a look in because there was no need to "UNITE" !

TCX appears to be a Union Company. Should you wish to accept employment in such a scenario, you go with the ball game. If within the game, one remains free to join or remain outside, that freedom should be respected.

On thread, stay on site TCX & do not let anyone , er, "pursuade" you into anything you feel to be unprofessional. Good luck to all who face very unsettling and worrying times.

[fade to grey]

Good luck to all at TCX, my friend has just done 6 months there but unfortunately is now at the end if the contract.

BALPA were toothless when I needed them before, we all went and joined the TGWU. Being a Tory boy that was a big step but gave us some protection.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

BALPA is far from perfect and few dispute that. The alternative unfortunately is management imposition of revised T and Cs or the IPA that has got Virgin pilots nowhere.

[beardy]

"Pursuade" is that the sort of shoe that pursers (RN) wear? I could be persuaded that it belongs to the grocer WHOSE apostrophe was stolen. I am not sure I recognised much of the rest of the discussion, which seems to have been lost in myth and legend.

[fantom]

Slow,

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

However, 'bully-boy' tactics is below the belt and certainly nothing I have encountered. I was once asked if I would support a forthcoming work-to-rule and replied that, as I had only been in the Co for six weeks and agreed the T+Cs, how could I?

I did join some time later but left, having decided it was not worth it and contrary to my uber R-wing ideals.

Guess what? Starting to operate into USA I realised I needed protection so I joined again. Pure and simple.

The important message from me (returning to the original point of this thread) is that, in my opinion, those representing TCX pilots in BALPA are some of the most genuine guys I have ever worked with and deserve great respect.

[slowjet]

'BEARDY' ; Loved it. Just choked on my first shot of caffeine ! Maybe I meant ' per suede' ! 'FANTOM', I was referring to the dreadful 1960's & early 70's. I enjoyed employment with my sponsoring airline & hated the thought of "withdrawing" my labour in support of some herly bird in dispute with Bristows ! I hated the handling of the BEA/BOAC/BARD merger where some Bapla reps did very well & I wound up bottom of BEA ! Of course things got better where silly Managements decided to negotiate only with BALPA PLC'c . I am aware of the tremendous efforts of the new breed of BALPA Rep & no intended offense exists. I still prefer non Union Companies & enjoyed the greater part of my career with them. Apologies for going off thread a bit & I still feel for all in TCX .

[Bernoulli]

Slowjet, your opinions seem to have been formed as a result of what you experienced in the 70s and, frankly, I'd probably have come to the same position myself.

But things have changed and perhaps you should look again at the world around you. Although you may have been clever enough to negotiate for yourself some really good terms and conditions, try that today as a contractor with Ryanair and see how far you get. The young men and women starting out today are being thoroughly exploited by the management of these 'low cost' airlines and individually they can do nothing about it. They will only improve their lot by acting collectively; something they have obviously failed to do.

We in TCX are lucky enough to have an agreement that sees the Company obliged to negotiate with our professional body; BALPA. We live in the real world (not a half forgotten world of three day working weeks, electricity cuts, Scargill and Red Robbo) and membership of a Union does not make that go away, it does not immunize you from change. It does however give you a voice, a say in the process of change and a counterweight to management excess.

The BALPA CC in TCX cannot undo the damage done by the incompetent management of recent years but they can try to ensure that the changes necessary are shaped in such a way that our Airline remains the great place to work for pilots that it is now, even in the midst of all this crap; an aim un achievable acting individually.

And before before anybody accuses me of being a BALPA stooge I must state that beyond being a member I have little else to do with the Association. I simply believe that we must try to speak to 'Management' with one voice.

[slowjet]

Thanks Bernoulli. Excellent post. Just hung up my flying boots and agree we live in a vastly changed climate. I am, frankly, glad to be out of it & again apologise to any BALPA reps of the "real world" who, I know, do very excellent work on behalf of members.

[FANS]

Let's see what the long term strategy looks like at the end of the month...if it contains any detail or just waffle.

In the meantime, people can continue to talk of reserve captains' lists.